Yeah, in connection with Yavin4's thread on Hillary Hate

[Tab]

I don't mind that people are passionate for Bernie, or passionate for Hillary; I don't even mind if they bash the other candidate, but all these proclamations of "if Hillary wins I can't bring myself to vote for her" is disturbing. We're on the cusp of a major governmental change, people. Even if you think things will "stay the same" if Hillary is in office - maybe they will - if you don't vote for whoever the nominee is we lose a critical chance to reshape the politics in this county. The GOP is in self-destruct mode and if we're not voting our PARTY (yes, hold your breath if you can't stand to vote for Hillary but do it anyway) then we greatly increase the possibility that the other people - whom we don't want - like Trump or Cruz or whoever - could sweep the election.

This is not the time to be only idealistic. Bernie has created a great time to be idealistic. Let's be idealistic! But if you can't be idealistic, at least try to be practical.

[LexVegas]

1. They will get in line. nt

[Jester Messiah]

2. Yeah, you just keep on believing that. [nt]

[Kelvin Mace]

5. Yeah, statements like that

really don't help your case.

[blm]

7. That is not a respectful reply.

imo

[farleftlib]

12. Get over yourself

That is what is wrong with the Hillary supporters. That. Right. There.

[840high]

32. Nope. Not this time.

[VulgarPoet]

35. What, are you going to "bring us to heel"? n/t

[azurnoir]

38. Ya mean us Bernie folk will be brought to heel?

Thanks

[cherokeeprogressive]

40. Fuck getting in line.

YOU can get in line, say "ba a a a a a" and hang with the other sheep... Some of us at least find that mental image nothing less than nauseatingly distasteful.

[VulgarPoet]

50. "In the laaaaaaaaand of the sheeeeeeeeeeeeep

and the home, of the, slaves."

Imagine that in a minor key, and you've got exactly where this nation is going.

[cherokeeprogressive]

51. Wow. I don't think I'll ever be able to hear the National Anthem again without hearing that.

Not sure how that makes me feel LOL!

[VulgarPoet]

52. One of my journal entries was on this theme, I nearly had the whole thing re-written

can't find that particular composition notebook anymore, though, and that makes me sad for sheer fact that I had verses written for a good sized mixtape in there. >.>

[hifiguy]

89. I won't either.

Most excellent, actually.

[Avalux]

45. You will be sorry you ever supported Hillary. n/t

[coyote]

47. I will getting in line to write in Bernie if I have to.

Have a nice day.

[Shadowflash]

54. You think so?

We'll just fall into line for any old candidate we get stuck with?

To me, that's getting a little old.

[Warren DeMontague]

57. Fear will keep the local systems in line. FEAR OF THIS BATTLE STATION

[Beowulf]

60. Do you realize that sounds so much like

"bringing them to heel?"

[Blue State Bandit]

64. That's the additude that we don't like. Distain and disrespect.

From the candidate down.

[cui bono]

74. Spoken like a true authoritarian.

You sure know how to appeal to the movement you are trying to squash.

.

[Dem2]

75. Silly post.

Pavlovian replies.

All-around silly.

[Bubzer]

81. Pavlovian? Probably. Telling? Absolutely!

[hifiguy]

87. I don't know whether your arrogance or your condescencion

takes first placehere.

I am not a sheep and I don't "get in line."

I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own and so is my vote.

[smiley]

90. I just donated to Bernie's campaign again.

Thanks for the incentive!
Go Bernie!!

[NCTraveler]

3. I have serious reservations about a Sanders Presidency.

I believe any of the republicans would destroy what we have been recovering over the last seven years. Sanders is light years better than them and will get my vote in the general if he comes out of the primary victorious.

[Fast Walker 52]

68. and I have serious reservations about a HRC presidency

but I assume both of us will still vote D in the GE. OTOH, there are still reasonable arguments to be made about who can attract more independents and inspire more enthusiasm-- which we will need!

[berniesandero]

103. bravo bravo ,

[liberal N proud]

4. It is baffling that someone would throw it all away because their candidate didn't make it

I mean you have ideals of a liberal America but because your candidate didn't win the nomination, you are going to let the extreme opposite have it?

What was your motive? I just don't understand.

[artislife]

34. What is being thrown away exactly?

It is like we are being offered Banana Foster, Banana Split or Banana Flambe when what we want is chocolate torte. Sometimes people decide they don't want dessert if all that is offered is bananas.

[cherokeeprogressive]

41. I want a sundae, dammit! nt

[Nitram]

42. Excellent metaphor, Artislife!

I totally get why voting for a Democartic president is like choosing a dessert.

[Shadowflash]

56. +1000

nt

[Jackie Wilson Said]

76. Sounds like someone who wont be affected by any of the long list of

discriminatory practices the GOP intends to implement if they take over all power.

[artislife]

83. One, I am a woman and two I am brown.

Maybe voting in the banana I don't want only encourages the kitchen to keep sending out bananas.

[liberal N proud]

85. Why is it so important that BS get the nomination for you?

I would assume it is his ideals and campaign promises. But if you are willing to throw that away and allow the complete opposite extreme then you will at least be able to say you changed the country, albeit a nightmare scenario. Don't vote or don't vote for the Democratic nominee, you will be responsible for the horror we will all face.

Can you handle that responsibility?

[artislife]

88. I can handle voting for my platform

The Greens are closer than Hillary. I want Bernie because he can win for sure with that platform, the Greens most likely not. However, when I come to vote, the most important thing will probably be voting FOR my platform.

If the Democratic Party cannot put the candidate I chose to vote for, this is not my fault. I can only choose how I vote.

[liberal N proud]

91. Oh but it is!

[artislife]

92. Ohh but it is not.

There is a great post about candidates driving over the cliff. The only difference the speed. I want a candidate who believes in stopping the car from going over the cliff.

I don't know you, but I am guessing you think this is all about politics. But it is not.

My number one issue is the health of this planet. Though I believe we may have left it too late, what if we haven't? There is no one on the republican side and I don't believe in Hillary either, so I must vote for this planet. Voting for the candidate that drives more slowly isn't a win. In a hundred years, it won't matter one whit that we had a female president. What will matter is if we took the health of the planet over profits. She is a profit driven candidate.

She offers nothing.

[liberal N proud]

94. In my eyes you will be if you allow the GOP to win the White House

[artislife]

95. Fortunately, I don't care how you perceive me.

You are just a screen name on a website.

[liberal N proud]

96. If you don't vote for the Democratic Candidate don't be on DU complaining about your woes

[artislife]

97. When the time comes

I will either be here celebrating or not.

I said your post in my head with a nasally twang with a 'tude. It made me laugh.

[liberal N proud]

98. 'TUBE WTF?

is a 'tude?



Stooping to name calling?

[artislife]

99. Playing the anthem and now this

[liberal N proud]

100. Real mature

[gregcrawford]

63. You're absolutely right...

... I would love to see a woman elected president; just not this one. But there's no way in hell I'm going to let some Republican psychopath just saunter in to the Oval Office.

Behaving like a petulant child and refusing to vote for either candidate because your favorite didn't win the primaries is totally unacceptable, and, given the alternatives, unforgivable. I have zero patience with anyone on either side taking such a position.

I want Bernie to win, but I can live with Hillary. It's no big stretch to say that millions of us might die if The Donald were to be elected. Can anybody live with that on their conscience?

[bigwillq]

82. I will vote for every other DEM on the ballot

I don't think that is throwing away anything.

Plus, I live in CT. DEM nominee will win my state with our without my vote. I consider it a win-win.

[liberal N proud]

84. Not voting is exactly what the Republicans want you to do

The only way they win is when people stay away from the polls.

Why do they push for all the voter ID laws and voter restictions.

Voting is a civic responsibility.

You don't vote, you are responsible if a radical Republican gets elected. You are responsible and you will deserve the fuck ed up country you allowed to happen.

Why? Because of a temper tantrum when your candidate didn't get the nomination, the ideals you so treasured swapped for idiocy of the opposite extreme.

[bigwillq]

93. I am voting.

I have voted in every election on every level since I was 18. I am not the problem.

[TDale313]

6. Yeah, well, I'm in California so... Shrug.

My vote for President in the general won't matter a damn bit. Or to but it differently- if Dems are fighting here, they've already lost. Not voting lesser of two evils this time.

I'll be actively working for down ticket, though.

[leftofcool]

10. Didn't CA once go for Ronnie?

[closeupready]

14. Every state except MN went for Ronnie ... in 1984, IIRC.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. Yavin4 was a mass vendor of Hillary Hate in 2008, this time he's for her and doing attacks on Bernie

and Bernie supporters done against Hillary and her supporters in 2008. I think it is massively dishonest to work in extreme, name calling terms for years and then make an OP like the one you reference, feigning shock to read the very things the OP himself wrote in 2008. 'Wow!' he says, as if it just shocks him, when he wrote endless attacks on her, called her supporters 'Hillarians' and said she's exploit any issue, on and on and on. Also lots of material about Bill's affairs, lots of that.

So switching sides is one thing, but to affect surprise at what one has personally done on an extensive basis is just an attempt to sell me a sack of bullshit.

[Tab]

18. I didn't know the history, just saw the post

(don't know anything about Yavin4, just wanted a separate thread but acknowledge the topic)

but it doesn't really matter because I've observed plenty of posts of this on my own - "If Hillary makes it, I can't bring myself to vote for her because.... <whatever>". So you're going to toss your vote on the one really good chance we have at toppling the GOP? That's the primary end game here (years ago I didn't care as much because they seemed somewhat responsible, but now it's just a bunch of right wing extremists - hell, refusing to participate in government if it doesn't go their way or wasn't initiated by them - that's not helping the country. Once the teabaggers got a foothold (yes, I'm calling you teabaggers - look it up) we just lurched the GOP to the right, and they don't seem to be self-correcting very much. Well, I'm sorry, I voted for Bernie in the primaries, but if Hillary gets the nod then I'll vote for her. To fail to do that would be to throw away a big right of mine as a citizen at a time we need it the most.

[beam me up scottie]

26. ^^^THIS^^^

Thank you again, Blue, for pointing out hypocrisy.

[Kelvin Mace]

9. I keep hearing this and folks keep missing the point

The time for radical change is now. And it is our last chance. The reality is that this country is hurtling toward the abyss at 60 mph with a hundred feet to go. We have a choice of two drivers:

One will gently apply the brakes, and drive us over the edge at a more restrained 45 mph.

The other will jam on the brakes, and slam the transmission into reverse.

The rest of the country will pick between one of these two, and a driver who will stomp the accelerator, hit the nitrous booster and light the JATO rockets.

Of these three choices, only one driver has any chance of keeping the country alive. The other two mean certain death.

Think I am exaggerating?

Well the "live or die" issue of our time is not campaign finance reform, not marriage equality, gun control, abortion rights or income inequality.

It is global warming.

After decades of warning people that we were approaching the point of no return, we have now either reached it, or passed it. Ahead lies mass extinction, famine, pestilence, and war on a cataclysmic scale.

Our choice of candidates, as "Democrats/Liberals/Progressives" is simple:

The person who will take radical measures to cut carbon emissions and build a green energy infrastructure, or the person who will compromise and only implement realistic plans with consensus "buy in" from the relevant stake holders.

The first person will probably fail, but might, just might succeed.

The second person will fail, PERIOD.

And that, my friends, is what is on the line. After the primary we will either choose between two candidates who will both drive us into abyss, or one who will drive into the abyss with maniacal glee and one who will do his damndest to stop on the edge.

I refuse to be blamed if the "majority" wrong.

[Orsino]

33. Yep. Caretaker Dem presidents pushing only modest reforms are a luxury we can ill afford.

Climate change, inequality and corporate fascism keep advancing, threatening our Constitution and civilization. Every time we fail to elect real reformers, those emergencies only grow more urgent. We keep wasting time, and that must end very soon.

[artislife]

36. ^^^This.

This is why we are not the ones who will be throwing away their votes.

[Nitram]

43. Actually, it is never our last chance". But it could be our last chance for 50 years to...

...appoint 3 Supreme Court Justices.

[Kelvin Mace]

48. Unless we do something about the planet heating up NOW

The Supreme Court will be the least of our worries.

[mikimurphy]

67. Agreed climate change the most pressing issue, bar none

And what is HRC's plan. More fracking?

I do not know what I will do in the general if HRC is the candidate. But I've been hearing the same fear mongering line about what will happen if I don't vote for the establishment candidate for 40+ years. Please ask yourself why we cannot do any better than a bought and paid for third way democrat.

[Kelvin Mace]

73. Exactly my experience

Vote for this guy, he's better than the Republican. Then the party keeps moving right by fits and starts.

This election is going to come down to turn out, and HRC does NOT help turn out on our side. She does, however, GALVANIZE the right to turn out.

If Bernie is the nominee, you will see turn out on the left, and he will have coat tails. HRC will not.

Oh, and welcome to DU.

[Cleita]

11. Instead of promoting the get in line train, it seems Democrats should start

listening to what people are saying instead and fix it before we do see a President Trump inaugurated next January.

[blm]

31. Yes. The bluntness of "get in line" is extremely disrespectful and counterproductive for what needs

to happen in the coming months.

[Nitram]

44. I agree, the "they will get in line" comment was uncalled-for nastiness. nt

[Capt. Obvious]

13. You couldn't post this there?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. Should we vote for Jeb! if he changes party affiliation because DEMOCRATS!

[Nitram]

46. Unicorn, it is clear your strength is not inventing credible thought experiments.

Or are you comparing Jeb to Bernie because Bernie just became a Democrat?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

101. The OP suggests that unless we unconditionally rally around the candidate with a D the GOP

will win. I submit that for some candidates running under the Democratic banner their win would be a functional victory for the GOP.

I'd rather vote for a candidate of genuine principle who only assumed the label of Democrat to gain access to the nomination than vote for a lifelong Democrat that has brought us nothing but corporatism and war.

[closeupready]

16. Is this an attempt to bring the idealists to heel?

[Tab]

27. Absolutely not.

Vote for your ideal. I did (voted for Bernie).

But if your ideal doesn't win the nomination, I'd like to think your "second ideal" would be the democrats. Maybe Hillary gets in office. So what? Maybe you don't like it. But maybe the next - since the dems are in place - is someone like Elizabeth Warren.

The road to a destination is sometimes a curved road. If you refuse to take the turn, you're off the road already.

[HooptieWagon]

17. The Democratic Party has been headed towards a civil war...

...ever since the DLC hijacked the party and began dragging it to the right. Now the party leadership is much further RW than the majority of the party...it's time for them to go. Better to have this battle now, while the GOP is battling its own split.

[jeff47]

19. Your post has a major problem.

Clinton can't win my state in the general election*. If Clinton is the nominee, our electors will go to the Republican.

As a result, the only meaning left in my vote is idealism. Either Clinton manages to win my vote, or she doesn't. In either case, I can not affect the outcome of the election.

The vast majority of DUers are in the same situation, and you completely ignore that. Most of us live in states where there is no doubt which party will win. SC is going to vote for the Republican. CA is going to vote for the Democrat.

What you are telling people is that you want to remove the only remaining point for them to go to the polls. That they must abandon any meaning in their vote, and toe the party line when they are fully aware that their vote "won't count".

Let them have their personal stand at the top of the ballot. It gets them in the booth for all the other races on the ballot, and they can't change the outcome at the top anyway.


*(Sanders has a very slim chance to win my state, but there are easier states to win in order to get to 270 electoral votes. So it is extremely unlikely that he'd put in the necessary resources to win my state.)

[VulgarPoet]

37. Same here. So my vote really doesn't matter a tinker's damn.

[Snarkoleptic]

20. As they say- Fall in love in the primary and fall in line in the general.

If the thought of conservative crackpot(s) being appointed to SCOTUS, doesn't motivate, perhaps this will...
https://vimeo.com/153723787

[aidbo]

61. I watched until I found Waldo (6:00 minute mark), couldn't take any more.

[LiberalLovinLug]

62. The Idiocracy in full bloom

Why are you voting for Trump?

"he's going to make America great again", "He has a lot of class...not like the current President" "And he has a beautiful wife"

[TheFarseer]

21. This is not the time for this.

You can't wait til tempers cool or even til the primary season is over?

[obamanut2012]

22. If Bernie gets the nom, he definitely has my vote

No Hillary write-in or no leaving "President" unchecked, and certainly no vote for Trump!

The future of our country and its citizens are too important for me.

Good post!

[randome]

23. If you really believe in a revolution, you don't turn tail and run.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tab]

29. The only problem is

if the revolution doesn't work out, you have to wait another 4 or 8 years for another crack at it.

[Prism]

24. I pledge to vote down ticket

It's the only loyalty oath anyone's getting out of me.

Plus, it helps that I actually really like my representatives.

Cept the local city council. Fucking bunch of do nothing busybodies.

[Maedhros]

25. For myself, you've got it backward:

I'm not withholding my vote if Hillary wins. I had no intention of voting for a corporate candidate in the first place.

Bernie Sanders' candidacy gives me someone to vote FOR. If he does not with the nomination, then I will find another candidate to vote FOR.

The Party is pulling levers to make Hillary its candidate. If they wanted my vote, they wouldn't do that.

[cui bono]

39. Yes, The Party 'leaders' have made it clear that a Hillary presidency will have nothing to do

with the will of the people, so they can do that shit without me.

I'm voting for the candidate that best represents the Dem Party's supposed principles and ideals, who best represents the interests of the people and who best represents the true essence of our democracy.

If someone shoved shit in my face I wouldn't eat it just because it wasn't a turkey sandwich.

.

[Maedhros]

49. We've been brow-beaten with the same empty argument since 2000:

vote for horrible Democrats to keep Republicans out of office, but don't expect those Democrats to do anything.

The question I ask is "what is the end game to this strategy?" The strategy as presented is thus:

1. Keep electing corporate Democrats
2. ???
3. Progressive governance!

I just don't see how to get from #1 to #3. Assume we elect Hillary in 2016. In 2024 we'll be asked to hold our noses AGAIN and vote for ANOTHER corporate sell-out. If we win, we'll do the same in 2032...and in 2040...and in 2048. What will the Party look like then?

There is a reason this propaganda is being leveraged against us - the corporate entities that support Democratic candidates do not want liberal or progressive governance.

When you vote for corporate candidates, you get corporate governance. It doesn't get simpler than that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. No sale.

[libtodeath]

30. "Nope we cant" is not pragmatic,it is surrender.

[Kelvin Mace]

53. Precisely!

In a world of Vichy Democrats, some of us prefer to be the French Resistance.

[Warren DeMontague]

77. I STILL BELIEVE IN A PLACE CALLED NOPE

[EdwardBernays]

55. You're looking at it like it's two flavors of ice cream

Last edited Thu Feb 25, 2016, 07:57 PM - Edit history (2)

Or like we're playing some sort of anti-Clinton game.

We're not.

This isn't a game...

Hillary is corrupt.

Like with many many famous, wealthy and powerful people there's not going to be some magic moment where police swoop in and produce some amazing evidence of their crimes. In case you haven't noticed our entire system is corrupt.

But.

She has repeatedly done what she can to reduce transparency..

She has taken money from people whose deals she's responsible for adjudicating. And those deals always get approved.

She has talked up human rights and women's rights while taking money from oppressive regimes and then often selling them millions and billions in weapons. Weapons now being used in war crimes in at least one case.

She has hired the owner of one of the biggest lobbying firms in DC as her campaign chairman. She asks him to represent her publicly.

And on and on.

If any Republican did this Hillary supporters (hypocritically it now appears) would call them corrupt. And they would be.

And when your husband does even worse. Well. It's gross and should not be supported.

And it's not the behaviour of a liberal or a progressive. No its not. No. No its not. If you're telling yourself that selling billions of weapons to a country that horribly oppresses women and holds public mass executions could ever be the "top priority" of a progressive, you're wrong or confused.

If you think that deliberately trying to hide and conceal donors to your "Foundation" is something a progressive does, you're wrong.

If you think vouching for an oppressive dictator publicly, to help your buddy get a billion dollar uranium deal is progressive, you're wrong.

And I will NOT vote for someone that behaves like this.

I will not tell the DNC that I support having that person as a candidate.

I won't vote for a neoliberal with a neoconservative foreign policy.

I won't vote for someone that takes advice from a war criminal.

I won't vote for someone that has made racist attacks as part of their political campaign...

If you want me to vote nominate someone worth a damn.

[Merryland]

78. very eloquent - thanks!

[OZi]

58. I'll vote my conscience

but thanks for your concern. I'll also reserve my right to make my choice until my ballot is cast.

"We get a lot of our ingredients from the same places and have a lot of the same share holders, but at least our product won't hurt you as bad" isn't a very compelling sales pitch.

[JDPriestly]

59. Fear, fear, fear. I'm voting my conscience and not fear.

I do not want to have a Hillary presidency on my conscience.

I will vote for my Democratic candidates for all other offices including my senators and my representative when the time comes as well as all local Democrats.

But will never, ever vote for Hillary.

Most of the people voting for her in the primary that I hear from either on the internet or personally are simply voting out of fear.

Don't vote out of fear. Gather your senses and vote your conscience, your moral values.

Vote for democracy. Vote against oligarchy.

Vote for Bernie.

[EdwardBernays]

66. Fear is literally their slogan.

'“The slogan is ‘Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid,’” said Paul Begala, who is an adviser to the pro-Clinton super PAC Priorities USA.'

http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/be-afraid#.rqyV1Xw55

That shit is NOT progressive.

[Jack Rabbit]

65. Pardon my idealism, Tab

I don't hate Hillary Clinton, but I think she's irrelevant and that if she becomes president she'll still be irrelevant. That's because it is obvious to me and should be obvious to anyone who dwells in a "reality based" community that Hillary takes money from oligarchs to maintain the status quo. By definition, "Hillary Cinton will maintain the status quo" means that there will be no dramatic changes during her administration.

At a time when the income gap is widening and the middle class is growing smaller, maintaining the status quo is not a winning platform. As fall as I can tell, Bernie Sanders is the only candidate for the presidential nomination of a major political party running on a platform other that one. That's why it seems to me that the pragmatic thing to is support him.

If you think Hillary is taking money from the big banks and Big Pharma and the mother frackers today so she can stab them all in the back after January 20, then I'd like to know which of us believes in rainbows and unicorns. Anyone who believes such a thing is terribly naive.

I have said that I will vote for Mrs. Clinton if she is the nominee, although I confess that doing otherwise crosses my mind at least twice a week. I have also said that regardless of who is the next president, I will hit the streets next year railing against the neoliberal policy that Mrs. Clinton and all the Republican candidates embrace. The abandonment of an unjust and unsustainable socioeconomic paradigm that became the predominant policy paradigm with the election of Reagan is long overdue.

How's that for youthful idealism? Frankly, I think I'm a grumpy, cynical old man at age 64.

[retrowire]

69. Don't worry, I follow Bernie

And Bernie would want us to vote for Hillary if he didn't make it.

[Armstead]

70. See my avatar in the corner?

Anyone but Bush 2004.....and Democrats have been singing the same old song since the 1990's -- whether they hold the Presicdence or not, whether they hold Congress or not.

Always the same -- Now is not the time. We have to stave off the GOP.

[Tab]

71. Wow, I'm surprised by the divisiveness even in this thread.

No one in particular, and admittedly the thread was to call attention to our divisiveness, but it's pretty strong. We have to make this work, one way or another.

For medical reasons, I probably won't see the next election (meaning 2020), but I'd like to know we didn't toss in the towel. My main point was to go for your idealism, and ideal candidate, whoever it is, but if that's not an actual option in the election, at least be pragmatic for the big picture. Don't mean to lecture or talk down to anyone or whatever, but just it's an IMHO.

Peace to all.

[liberal_at_heart]

86. I guess I'm just not the pragmatic type. I have never been much of a risk taker when it comes

to myself, but I am a fierce fighter when it comes to my children. I am not afraid to take a risk for them and their future. I will not vote out of fear but rather out of a necessity to fight for my children. The rich have made a grave mistake. They have not only been screwing with us for the past 30 years, but they have now screwed with our children and that is a big mistake on their part. For the first time the next generation is not expected to do better than their parents. And it is not only we parents who are pissed off about this. The Millennials are pissed off at our government for screwing them over and they are showing it. And they are not party loyalists either. They will hold both parties accountable for screwing them over. I am so ready for this fight. This isn't over. Not by a long shot.

[liberal_at_heart]

72. I am an Independent. I do not pledge loyalty to any party.

[islandmkl]

79. who the fuck cares...you're going to vote aren't you?...

on an individual basis that is all it is all about...

[leveymg]

80. Both parties are in advanced self-destruct mode. The only question is which will destroy us first.

If Hillary is the candidate, we'll be a major war within 6 months. If the other brand somehow sneaks into the WH, I give us 5 to 7 months before hostilities break out, depending upon the individual's level of incompetence. In that respect, there isn't a whole lot to choose from.

neocons v Neo Conservatives

[MisterP]

102. Clinton's running precisely to keep politics the same and block any reshaping

of politics