Campaigns vs Movements

[H2O Man]

One of the most interesting phenomenon of the Democratic Party’s 2016 presidential primary contest is the tension between the manner that supporters of Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton view the process. I say this, not in an attempt to present it as “right vs. wrong,” as the differences are ones of opinion, after evaluating the same basic materials.

As a Bernie supporter, who will vote for the party’s nominee, I understand that -- for example -- I view the Clinton campaign’s refusal to release the transcripts from her talks to Goldman Sachs much differently than do my friends who support Hillary. We look at the same general set of facts, and come to very different conclusions.

And that’s okay. There is no good reason for the growing hostilities that exist between the supporters of each candidate. There are very real differences between Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton. Those differences include what each one would seek to if elected. More, these differences will determine the outcome of the presidential election in November.

In my opinion, the biggest difference between the two candidate’s supporters is this: there is a Clinton campaign versus a Sanders movement. Just my opinion, nothing more. I suspect that more of the DU community that supports Bernie would agree, though, than those supporting Hillary.

One reality that both camps share is that no person, no matter how intelligent and insightful, can properly judge the historic significance -- and ultimate value -- of a movement, while it is happening. That is distinct from a campaign: we know the results of elections shortly after they are held -- unless the machine decides to interfere, as in 2000. But, even then, we knew within a short time who won, and that the US Supreme Court was overturning the outcome.

Both campaigns and movements can represent what is good in our political life. There comes times when each are appropriate. And, at their peak of potential, each can coordinate with the other. But even then, the true impact of a movement will be impossible to fully judge at the time. Specific gains can be measured, but the sum total cannot. Let’s look at few relatively recent movements, and take an objective view of their worth.

In the lifetime of the “baby-boomer” generation, we have seen the civil rights movement; the anti-war movement; the women’s movement; rights for the disabled movement; gay and lesbian rights movement; the anti-nuke movement; the environmental movement; and, most recently, the Occupy movement. Although these may appear diverse, they all share a common goal: to expand social justice, by recognizing the human rights of people who were marginalized by society. More, while they provide safety and protections for human beings, they did not infringe upon the rights of others in any manner whatsoever.

They have more in common, my friends. In virtually every case, they faced the opposition of an entrenched group, who were intent upon denying others their human rights. More, they had to deal with an even larger group of people who may have been sympathetic to their cause, in theory, but who were convinced that “now is not the time.” Friends who believed the activists wanted too much progress, too soon. The best example of this can be found in the clergy who, from the comfort and luxury of their homes, told Martin Luther King that they were with him as he sat in the dark in dreary cell in the Birmingham jail, but that he needed to slow down. To be patient.

I suppose is it easier to be patient, when you are comfortable. And so it would make sense to support a campaign that promises to extend your comfort level, especially in uncomfortable times. Yet, for those who are denied those “comforts,” it would seem self-defeating to merely campaign. And when the numbers of those that society pushes outside the margins becomes, as it is today, a majority, a campaign is not as attractive as a movement.

The Occupy movement showed the beauty and power of this. It highlighted the insanity of allowing the 1% to exercise “majority rule” in this country. Occupy put into effect a simple truth of movements: if you want people to behave differently, you must first help them to think differently. And that’s the proper place for patience. But, on the flip side, with that patience must come creative tension.

The Sanders movement (aka Sanders revolution) was, at first, incorrectly perceived as a “pipe dream” by the Democratic Party’s establishment. Surprise, surprise! As Bernie stated, “Do not underestimate me.” Yet the establishment, including those organizing the Clinton campaign, absolutely underestimated Bernie Sanders, because they viewed his challenge as coming from an intelligent, sincere man who has inhabited the margin of the US Senate. The Clinton campaign had not hired a weatherman to tell them which way the winds blow.

One example of this, in my opinion, can be found in the actions of an honorable man, Rep. John Lewis. I consider him a hero. He was a powerful member of the civil rights movement, who used advances in voting rights, to become a voice of conscience in Washington, DC. He was -- and is -- the type of human being that we want in government. For we want decent, honorable people inside of the government’s establishment.

Yet, some of the tactics he used in initially endorsing Hillary were wrong. That doesn’t mean he is less than a hero. It means, rather, that years within the establishment can influence most people’s values. Like many other good people, Rep. Lewis believes that we are better served by a campaign, than a movement. I’d like him to listen to Neil Young’s song, “Old Man.” Because in his younger days, he, too, heard some of his elders say that “now is not the time for a movement.”

By treating the Sanders movement as if it were simply another campaign, I believe that those in the Clinton campaign will do so much damage that it risks the fall election. As I’ve noted, based upon general elections coming down to states, I am fully confident that Bernie Sanders will win against any republican. But I do not think that Hillary would be in the same position. She might well win, but it will be a tougher fight. And among the reasons for that is the old Democratic Party belief that progressives have nowhere else to go. That tends to be true in campaign contests, but not so for movements.

Peace,
H2O Man

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. You always talk about topics that I had not thought about, my dear H20 Man.

You always open doors for my mind, and for that, I thank you.

K&R and off to the Greatest Page!

[H2O Man]

9. Thanks!

You are very kind!

[shraby]

2. You are always a learning experience!

[H2O Man]

10. Thank you!

I like to learn new things every day.

[shraby]

101. That's why I spent most of my life reading non-fiction.

[noretreatnosurrender]

3. Thanks H2O Man

Thank you for the excellent post.

[H2O Man]

11. Thank you!

[beam me up scottie]

4. Another excellent thought provoking op, H2O Man!

K & R !

[H2O Man]

51. Well, thank you.

I appreciate that!

I have a handful of essays bouncing about inside my head, as potential OPs for DU:GDP. I'm never sure what ones will catch on, versus those that sink. I had figured this one might go unnoticed.

I'm finding that old friends and associates, from movements of the past, are coming out of "retirement" to actively support the Sanders revolution. This younger generation has truly inspired them. And they are unhappy to see other movement veterans, now in the establishment, attempting to discourage these young adults.

So my OPs are generally taken from my conversations with these two groups, the young and old. I'm really glad that folks here enjoy them.

[Uncle Joe]

5. That's an excellent essay as usual.

Thanks for the thread, H2O Man.

[H2O Man]

52. Thanks, Uncle Joe!

[cyberswede]

6. K and R...again

I truly appreciate your thoughtful posts.

[H2O Man]

53. Thank you!

That makes it worthwhile!

[ms liberty]

7. K&R. I agree, well said.

[H2O Man]

54. Thanks, ms liberty!

I appreciate it!

[Raster]

8. Mr. Man you have hit the nail squarely on the head!

Bernie Sanders is a movement: a movement to bring back a voice to the common man and woman, a movement to end the crushing income inequality, which is at the core of almost all other negative issues our country faces today. This is the number one issue of the Sanders campaign.

The campaign to elect Hillary fees more like a cult of personality. It feels to me like with Clinton we're not reaching to fix our society's ills, we just working to get Hillary elected.

And finally, you mention Dr. King. His was definitely several movements: (1) equal rights, treatment and opportunities for African Americans; and then just as important, (2) equal economic opportunity for all persons; black, brown, red or white. And IMHO, the primary reason Dr. King was assassinated was not necessarily because of racial equality, but his evolving stand on economic equality and economic justice for all men and women. I believe those were the concepts that most alarmed the powers that were at the time.

Peace back to you.
THANK YOU for being a voice of intelligence,
of calm and of reason.

[H2O Man]

56. Well said!

You are definitely correct. Without going into details on his death -- not allowed on this forum -- we know that the US Army Intelligence was following King in his final year. This is documented, from the congressional investigations that followed Watergate. It began after King's most powerful speech, "A Time to Break Silence (aka Beyond Vietnam)" -- when he expanded his ministry in the manner you accurately describe. The federal government was not shadowing him, because generals were concerned about integrated public restrooms.

[Raster]

100. Thank you.

The powers that be at the time were extremely concerned that his messages of equal economic opportunity and justice for all - economic and otherwise - were beginning to find a MUCH LARGER AUDIENCE.

[H2O Man]

115. Exactly.

There were many, many in the Democratic Left -- which can include progressive Democrats -- who began to propose an RFK/MLK presidential ticket. The power structure felt that pressure.

I enjoy talking with you!

[bigtree]

12. of course Hillary supporters would disagree

,,,I doubt there's an inch of daylight between the aspiration of Hillary supporters here and Sanders folks. Indeed, there wasn't much daylight between the voting records of the two candidates.

I'm less impressed that Sanders has been competitive with Clinton. most of the 'surprise' over his candidacy can be placed at the foot of the media which promoted Hillary's name recognition polling lead as some immutable force.

What I would say about these choices is there's a big difference between aspirations of candidates and their prospect for success of their promises and agenda. It would be a curious argument to suggest the election, or even votes in a primary represents something more than the elevation of a politician. It's what comes next that determines whether change involves more than just a shift in WH personnel.

In that, there's a ready base of support for Hillary's agenda (and candidacy) in the legislature which, notably, includes almost the entire membership of the Congressional Progressive Caucus Bernie Sanders founded. That includes John Lewis who, unlike his limited knowledge of and history with Sanders, has decades of experience working with Hillary Clinton in the field and in the legislature.

I don't find much durability in a 'movement' which seeks to disparage people in our party already working hard to effect change for the benefit of a political campaign which, not so coincidentally, needs those very people and institutions to transform their candidate's promises into action or law.

Most of those legislators will still be in place when this election is over, and most of the people chosen to fill the ranks of a Democratic presidency will be pulled from a similar, familiar base of Democrats from previous administrations. More credible would be a flood of like-minded candidates for Congress who would support a 'revolutionary' agenda. That's not even on the radar.

In fact, the whole idea of a 'revolution' to lead the US government is a contradictory pursuit, especially when directed against our Democratic coalition, focusing on differences in degree of change, rather than on the clear opposition from republicans. Either Democrat would pose a credible challenge to that opposition if elected. Neither candidate achieves that change, merely in the act of getting themselves elected.

[H2O Man]

57. Thank you.

You are -- as you know, though not everyone here might -- one of the Hillary supporters whom I have the utmost respect for. Thus, in response to this post of your's -- like virtually any -- I have the option of focusing on those areas where we agree, or disagree. But, because you remind me of my two brothers, it's always more fun to debate those differences ......I think that with my brothers, from childhood to old age, arguing is the closest we come to displaying affection (being primarily Irish, you know).

If a person is located inside of a picture frame, my good friend Rubin often said, they cannot, by definition, have an objective viewpoint. Hence, I was able to say, with all humility but utmost certainty, that the Hillary supporters would disagree. And, as your post shows, it cannot be otherwise. This does not make their opinions less important, or less valuable. It merely defines the different potentials.

I am unaware of a single Bernie supporter who believes that what Sanders and Clinton stand for are so similar, that there is no daylight between them. Yet, I respect that you are sincere in believing this. But the only way I could make that case would be if I turned back the clock a few decades, and placed myself back in a law class at the university, where for an exercise, we had to argue that: black and white are opposites; black and white are exactly the same; and there is absolutely no relationship between black and white ......with the goal of having each of our three positions be equally strong.

However, for sake of conversation, if Hillary and Bernie are so similar, the Congress that you believe awaits Hillary must be equally there for President Sanders.

[bigtree]

72. I apologize

I must not have been clear. I don't believe for a moment that these two have similar 'stands.' I meant to refer to their voting records. Sanders voted overwhelmingly with the Democratic majority, and so did Clinton.

You're correct to note that Bernie will have the benefit of a Democratic legislature, and he would appear to be receptive to the current Democratic 'establishment' agenda.

It's not as clear to me how receptive they'll be to his proposals. Still, if he manages to fulfill the level of citizen activism that he defines as his 'revolution' it would be a significant impetus to change, something we've never experienced before.

But I don't see the same 'revolution' Bernie supporters see. From my perspective, Bernie is a formidable challenger to a popular, but vulnerable Democrat. That's all I see.

I don't believe his supporters are any more in earnest about the problems we face, or any more determined to advance progressive change than Hillary's. If there is a movement in this election, it's the political awakening from voters like those of our Latino community who are organized and energized to make a difference in their states in this election. It's no coincidence that they're under such an assault from republicans.

Those voters, and others who are identifying their own causes with these Democrats are what should motivate these politicians beyond even their own campaign agendas. I don't think I'm alone in caring less about a political movement behind one candidate, than I do about seeing my own interests represented effectively by our party's nominee.

[2banon]

75. don't want to quibble, but please be clear this isn't "Bernie's Movement" it's OUR movement.

It's a difference of significant distinction.

[H2O Man]

76. Interesting.

I think that we have seen it before ......in the mid-1960s, LBJ was able to get significant civil rights legislation through, not because of the inner goodness of the Democrats and republicans in DC, but because of the moral force of the movement.

[bigtree]

82. it was a movement and a crisis focused on a central and compelling theme

...I'm not sure it's analogous, because this movement is, at this point, about the advancement of a politician, more than it's about the myriad interests and concerns which supporters proliferate daily.

It reminds me of a benefit concert with dozens of tables and booths advocating so many issues that the one featured by the organizers is dwarfed and eclipsed. Much like our D.C. peace marches with the Free Palestine folks dominating.

[H2O Man]

83. To those who

are psychologically invested in "campaigns," I'm sure it does appear to be all about getting Bernie Sanders elected. And, indeed, that is an important dynamic. But the movement does not accept the opposition campaign's definitions, as they are so limited in nature, and thus restrictive in nature. By no coincidence, the civil rights movement did not accept the restrictive definitions of the repressive system.

It really comes down to something that people understand, or they don't. But it is not to suggest it is a measure of intelligence, or goodness. And it really cannot be explained in so many words.

Peace, Brother.

[bigtree]

89. I fully agree!

...our support often comes down to feelings.

Often something immutable, but, perhaps ill-defined with the words we employ in these elections.

Thanks for the discussion. Best regards.

[NRaleighLiberal]

13. brilliantly put, as always. as crystal clear as spring H2O!

[H2O Man]

58. Thanks, Buddy!

Proud to serve on the same team with you!

[sarge43]

14. Thank you. A very different perspective and much to think about

As usual with your posts.

[H2O Man]

59. Thanks, sarge43!

I am glad that you appreciate my contributions to the discussion here.

[RoccoR5955]

15. This movement has been going on for quite a long time

It has been going on before us Baby Boomers were alive. It waxes and wanes as time goes by. I have seen wax in the 60s, and wane in the 80s. The movement seems to go on in cycles like this, each time bringing more equality, and making more progress until the CONservatives come to start taking things away. It reaches a point, and the young take over, and make it stronger, and move forward more.
Sanders' Revolution is only the beginning of the next upswing of the movement, which was spawned by Occupy.
The revolution never dies, it just fades, and comes back to life after a while.

[H2O Man]

60. Absolutely!

"Who called these ghosts to dance?" -- Jim Morrison

Thank you for pointing out this important reality.

Every day recently, I talk with my cousins (on Face Book) over on the Old Sod; they are as active there, as I am here. Just yesterday, I posted some Sinn Fein material on my oldest son's FB page. Your post reminded me of a poem by Bobby Sands that one of my cousins who worked with him had sent me long ago, about the revolutionary human spirit.

[kgnu_fan]

16. Thank you, H2O Man. It clarified what I was thinking but could not articulate. nt

[H2O Man]

61. Thank you.

My children are convinced that I am the oldest human being on Earth; I suppose that this has provided me with lots of time to articulate those things we all know, but haven't yet put into words.

[kgnu_fan]

62. Yes, I too can recognize an Ancient One.

[Martin Eden]

17. Perspective, H2O Man. You really know how to put things in perspective.

Distilled down to its essence, I call it wisdom.

When I first started reading your post, I copied the following:

There is no good reason for the growing hostilities that exist between the supporters of each candidate.

I agree. I understand why the hostilities exist, having witnessed it unfold for months in this forum.

But there is no good reason, because this hostility divides us and hurts both the campaign and the movement.

[H2O Man]

63. Thank you very much!

You are kind.

I tend to view myself, as objectively as is possible, as "experienced." I had unique experiences, for example, in having not one, but two wise mentors: Rubin "Hurricane" Carter and Onondage Chief Paul Waterman. Sometimes, I think, what are the chances of some scruffy kid, in the outer margins of society, having those two as mentors as a youth, then close friends as adults? Crazy, really.

Also, I've had decades of experience -- in both campaigns and movements -- and am all too familiar with the negative impact that hostilities within, and between, groups always has. More, I know that the potential for hostilities is always there ....and for that exact reason, our true opposition will always seek to exploit those potential hostilities. I think that it is safe to say that we are witnessing both of these dynamics, even here on DU:GDP, daily.

Keep on fighting the Good Fight, my Friend!

[PWPippin]

18. Another wonderfully thoughtful and illuminating piece to think about as I drift off to sleep.

[H2O Man]

64. Thank you!

Hopefully, no one reads my essays while driving, or they, too, risk drifting off into sleep! (grin)

[PWPippin]

92. Funny- or not! I drifted off on the wings of a great and inspiring movement.

[H2O Man]

113. You are The Best!

I always feel very happy talking with you.

[PWPippin]

117. Thank YOU! Onward! Sleep well.

[erlewyne]

19. Great thread

My problem is with the media.
I am a reader and draw my own conclusions.

Two years ago I did not know Bernie Sanders
and am surprised I missed him, even though
he is from Vermont.

I used to like Rachel, so I am evolving.

Go Bernie!!!

[H2O Man]

65. Thanks!

I think that what you stated here is a great explanation of why the Sanders movement is gaining strength: people are thinking for themselves. And while that sounds so simple, it actually is a rare characteristic in our society, one that the system discourages.

[Lucinda]

20. It's not a movement when they dont show up and vote.

And it's not a movement when the person who wants to lead the movement, isn't doing anything to help elect downticket race candidates who are needed to legislate.

It may inspire you, it may raise the dialogue, but from where I'm sitting, it's not a movement.

[H2O Man]

66. Exactly.

Thank you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Since you brought Occupy

this started somewhat earlier, with the student revolt in 2009 in California. Though one could argue that it started cooking with the bush administration, For the record, so did the Tea party. This distrust of DC and government is not limited to them, but it crystalized then... it just became obvious later on.

I will also posit that this is not limited to the United States.

As an observer of Mexico, for example, I see many parallels. Then there is Canada, where students took to the streets and put into power a young son of a former Prime Minister. In Mexico the youth has failed to do that, and the same is in the US. This is just North America. This revolt against power elites spans many continents...

And nope, we will not know what the arc of history, to quote MLK has in store. At least not for a few years.

The revolt of 1848, and I have compared OWS to it in the past, is IMO a good parallel. The final results of that took a generation, Of course, with Climactic Change, I fear we do not have that long.

[tk2kewl]

34. What about WTO Seattle?

Too far back to be considered as the beginning of the movement? 9/11, Iraq, WOT changed the landscape for a while, but I think Seattle was the beginning myself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Historians will have a healhty discussion, becuase the resistance to the WTO

did not start in Seattle either. But it could be argued that those demonstrations were the precursor as well, and I mean globally.

[H2O Man]

67. Right.

Up above, in response to another Good Friend making much the same point, I mentioned that my cousins on the Old Sod are actively supporting Sinn Fein in their elections. And, of course, its the 100 year anniversary of the Easter Uprising.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Now that is a hell of connection that will escape

the young kids.

Now I am feeling old

[H2O Man]

77. Right!

I was just a youngster myself, in 1916 !

[ejbr]

22. And there it is.

[H2O Man]

68. Thank you!

[Overseas]

23. K&R. Well said.

[H2O Man]

69. Thanks!

[Paka]

24. K&R

Thank you for a very insightful and excellent post.

[H2O Man]

70. Thank you, Paka.

I'm happy that you enjoyed it.

[PatrickforO]

25. This is a great short essay.

Movement vs campaign.

Campaigns are tactical and movements are strategic.

I'm proud to be part of the Bernie Sanders movement.

[H2O Man]

78. Well said.

Thank you.

[warrprayer]

26. Peace

To you, my friend!

[H2O Man]

79. Thanks!

[FairWinds]

27. I'm with Lucinda on this . .

where is the movement?

I'm in touch with a really active group of Bernistas from my Ohio county,

and I have been encouraging them to get involved in down ticket races.

So far, nada - and I mean TOTALLY nada.

To me, it is disappointing that Bernie does not hit this "movement" issue
on the stump.

To quote H2O, "As Bernie stated, 'Do not underestimate me.'"

He could and should have said "Do not underestimate our movement."

[Gregorian]

29. He has worked with Tim Canova who is currently running for DWS' place.

Unfortunately, they have things pretty well set up in their favor, from what I have seen. They don't want competition. So Tim Canova is another movement oriented bottom-up campaign. There are others. There's a lot going on under the MSM radar.

[Ned_Devine]

31. Someone the other night posted a list of Bernie Democrats

They're running for federal and state offices nationwide

[H2O Man]

37. Sabrina did ......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1339228

[FairWinds]

38. Thanks Mr. Ned and Grego . .

we all need to work on this.

Myself, as an old fart, the Bernie excitement in North Central Ohio
is something to behold.

It exceeds either of the two Obama campaigns.

I kid you not.

But it HAS TO BE A MOVEMENT.

[H2O Man]

80. See post #37 .....

Friend Sabrina's link provides five candidates in your state!

Keep up the good work!

[Trust Buster]

28. I find your analysis to be seriously flawed.

This is an election and not a movement. Bernie is running to the far Left of the political spectrum. This is just a fact. Those that run farther out from the center risk losing the support of the center and, therefore, risk losing the election. What differentiates this election from a long term movement is the simple fact that the makeup of the Supreme Court hangs in the balance. If a Republican wins, then Justice Scalia's seat as well as Justice Ginsburg's seat and potentially Justice Breyer's seat will skew Right. A 7-2 or 6-3 Right leaning Court would be devastating to maintaining Choice, reversing Citizen's United, reclaiming voting rights, reclaiming worker's rights, maintaining strong EPA rules, strengthening anti-Trust actions, maintaining Affirmative Action, maintaining gay marriage and ancillary component rights, maintaining secular rights and the list goes on and on.

If we lose this election, we will lose that which we fought for over the last quarter of a century. We won't have time to fight Bernie's revolution if we are forced to fight for those rights that we secured over the last quarter of a century.

This is not a campaign vs. a movement. This is pragmatism vs. idealism. Bernie's agenda has ZERO chance to even be debated on the floor a Republican controlled House. As a matter of conscience, I will NOT assume such a risk (losing the Supreme Court for a generation) by supporting a legislative agenda whose prospects of delivering a reasonable return on investment are so low (Bernie's legislative agenda). If Bernie fails in the general, our priorities will be set back a quarter of a century. A revolution is all about timing. In this polarized political atmosphere, to risk so much on an agenda that's dead on arrival is a very poor investment as well as strategically poor timing IMO. If Bernie were a 50 year old Senator, I seriously doubt that he would choose this time of extreme polarization as the launching pad of his revolution.

[tk2kewl]

33. Can you explain what we have gained over the last quarter century that you worry will be lost?

[Trust Buster]

36. Perhaps you didn't read my long post closely. Allow me to digress.

Are you willing to give up a woman's right to choose ? How about gay marriage ? Affirmative Action ? What's left of the Voting Right's Act ? How about the EPA's environmental rules ? Would you like to see the National Labor Relations Board rendered impotent ? How about your right to seek redress in the courts in the form of a class action lawsuit ? I find it troubling that you can even ask such a question. I can only assume that you're on the younger side. Well, that will be our world if the Republicans enjoy a 6-3 Right leaning Supreme Court. Do you really wish to risk such a world on a man whose legislative agenda stands a snowball's chance in hell of making it's way through the United States Congress ? I don't. More importantly, I won't.

[tk2kewl]

48. Besides gay marriage none of those things represent gains over the last 25 yrs.

They all represent things democrats have either passively allowed republicans to diminish or have actively participated in curtailing over the past 25 yrs. no I don't want to see it get worse, but I'm pretty tired of accepting the democrats march to the right. What good evidence do you have that Hillary will do anything at all to strengthen any one of the areas you mentioned. She may not be as bad as the alternative, but the same old neoliberal economics and neoconservative foreign policy is not something I'm interested in voting for.

Do me a favor. Please don't make assumptions about me. You come off as condescending.

[Trust Buster]

50. Then please enlighten my assumption. What age group do you belong to ?

[tk2kewl]

55. Why would it matter?

Google my DU handle for DU posts if it's that important to you. I've mentioned it before and there are pics of me around to. Or even check my profile to see how long I've been a member. If you decide to use a picture for your determination, be sure to check the post date.

[H2O Man]

85. What is your favorite color?

[tk2kewl]

87. What is the airspeed of an unladen swallow?

[H2O Man]

84. Actually, those are

gains brought about by movements. Attempting to pretend that they are the rightful property of the Clinton campaign is a rhetorical device that might be effective in a campaign against an uninformed population. Here, it comes across as silly, at best.

[Trust Buster]

90. Your post make no sense.

I was talking about which party will have the opportunity to reshape the Supreme Court. Nowhere in my posts did I give Hillary credit for human rights advances in the past. Before you throw around the term "silly", you should read posts a little closer in the future.

[H2O Man]

91. You are silly,

by definition.

In a discussion about Bernie and Hillary, serious people understand they are both running for the Democratic Party's nomination. Non-serious (re: silly) people pretend otherwise.

I'm happy that you are supporting Hillary. Best of luck.

[Trust Buster]

97. I'm silly by definition ? Kind have just debunked the purpose of your own OP.

[H2O Man]

114. I apologize.

I know that you are aware that, the more that you've posted on this OP/thread, the more that I have not only recognized that you provided better evidence of the validity of the OP, but I have found your presentation to be a giggle.

My younger son was just here. Among the topics of discussion was the entertainment found upon debate sites on the internet. I mentioned you and your posts. I do not consider you to present a serious or adequate person to advocate for Hillary. in the context of this OP/thread. My son reminded me that, despite the circumstances, I should be respectful of you and your opinions.

I do think that there are many good qualities about Hillary Clinton, that should be being presented in the primary campaign. I definitely like her, but not her campaign. I am confident that I can easily present the Democratic Left with reasons to support Hillary, should she be the nominee, far more effectively than anyone on your side. The lack of quality that I'me seeing, including your's, is discouraging.

[Trust Buster]

116. You definitely have some ego there. I think I touched a nerve. It's all good though.

[H2O Man]

118. My funny bone.

But, per ego, probably yes, dependent upon context.

[FairWinds]

39. Respectfully disagree Mr. Trust . .

Much of what needs to happen can take place through the
Executive Branch regulatory framework.

In fact, 18 of 19 actions recommended by the Bank Fraud Group
can be done by Exec Action . .

And BTW, Bernie REALLY needs to sign on to that pledge.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/02/26/whistleblowers-challenge-candidates-stand-against-wall-street-fraud

[Trust Buster]

40. I was referring to Bernie's legislative agenda.

Free college tuition, Medicare for all, expanded Social Security and a national $15/hr minimum wage can only be achieved through the Legislative Branch. Let's not be cute here. Those are the initiatives that take center stage when Bernie travels from college campus to college campus.

[FairWinds]

42. Ya know, Dick Cheney worked really hard . .

to make the Exec Branch industrial strength, and I think
he succeeded.

I actually think Bernie can expand Medicare to kids
without congress-critter action, and much else besides.

But you do make a legitimate point.

Which is why Bernie needs to do a MUCH better job
of building a movement, not just his campaign.

(And BTW it really frosts my ass that Gov. Kasich got very close to
free college at Ohio State in the 1960s, and now wants to make OSU unaffordable
to those who come after.)

Are you saying that the Sixties didn't really happen? Really, they did - college used to
be pretty close to free . .

I appreciate you observations . .

[Trust Buster]

47. I like the idea of Bernie's movement.

My only issue is Bernie's timing. Do you really think that Bernie would choose this moment in time of extreme political polarization and Congressional paralysis if he were a 50 year old Senator instead of a 74 year old Senator ? I think it's absolutely imperative that we wrest control of the Supreme Court away from the Right. Then we can see Citizens United reversed and loosen the tight grip special interests have over the process. Then we'll have the tools to safeguard our gains made in the past and lean forward in the future.

[Martin Eden]

71. Your argument is based on the premise that Bernie would lose the general election.

I think that is far from a forgone conclusion, as is the argument that Hillary is likely to win with her high negatives and lack of support among those who often don't vote but will for Bernie.

We won't settle that argument here.

I also feel compelled to point out that your post does not touch upon the merits of any legislative agenda and the kind of change our country so desperately needs.

I think we can agree that if we don't push for change, it will never happen.

[H2O Man]

81. Right. Exactly right.

I think that every Bernie supporter will agree with me that your post absolutely reinforces the points that I made. And I'm not being snarky -- I appreciate that you invested the time and thought in your response. It illustrates what I was saying, about the very different perceptions we have.

Thank you!

[azmom]

30. Kick

[Ali-96]

32. Thank you

This post has opened my mind and really illuminates why Bernie has become such a superstar. This is a movement, and I sincerely hope that it keeps getting stronger.

[H2O Man]

86. Thank you!

[Blue_In_AK]

41. Excellent, excellent post, H2OMan.

Thank you.

[H2O Man]

93. Thank you.

[iAZZZo]

43. substance(!) most deserving of k&r

especially.........

"They have more in common, my friends. In virtually every case, they faced the opposition of an entrenched group, who were intent upon denying others their human rights. More, they had to deal with an even larger group of people who may have been sympathetic to their cause, in theory, but who were convinced that “now is not the time.” Friends who believed the activists wanted too much progress, too soon. The best example of this can be found in the clergy who, from the comfort and luxury of their homes, told Martin Luther King that they were with him as he sat in the dark in dreary cell in the Birmingham jail, but that he needed to slow down. To be patient."

thank you H2O Man

[H2O Man]

94. Thanks!

I've seen a number of good people, who are supporting Hillary, state that they like what Bernie represents, but do not think that now is the time.

[iAZZZo]

96. the "good people" you describe

you're most welcome H2O Man

the "good people" you describe: if they "do not think that now is the time", i and those around me can only surmise - with no intention of denigration merely observation - that their history is from text not experience? (please feel free to pm: don't mean to derail the thread with colloquy)

regardless, this is - in our opinions - the last chance

[myrna minx]

44. Wonderful! K&R

[H2O Man]

95. Thanks!

[mmonk]

45. Indeed. A campaign is for a person and a campaign

is over when an election is over. When someone is running on behalf of a movement, it is about the movement more than a person. A movement isn't over when an election is over. It retools for the next political battle.

[H2O Man]

104. You are right, mmonk!

This is a way of life (versus a way of death).

[kgnu_fan]

46. Kick for Saturday morning crowd.... nt

[H2O Man]

105. Thanks!

[Dustlawyer]

49. K&R!!! Once again you read my mind and said it much better than I ever could!

[H2O Man]

106. Thank you, my Friend!

I appreciate that.

[2banon]

74. WORD!

[H2O Man]

107. Thanks, Buddy!

[Zorra]

88. A very insightful analysis, thanks.

[H2O Man]

108. Thanks, Zorra!

Keep on fighting that Good Fight! I'm absolutely honored to be on the same team with you.

Your friend,
Pat

[kgnu_fan]

98. Kick for more eyeballs --- peaceful thoughts is the base for justice nt

[H2O Man]

109. I appreciate it!

I think the OP/thread contains some interesting discussions, with the potential for really good conversations here. Thank you for assisting in this !

[ngGale]

99. K&R...

As an old member myself, you are 100% correct. Your views are deeply appreciated and I hope heeded by the youth. Talked to my 19 year old granddaughter today and echoed those same thoughts. This will be her 1st election...

[H2O Man]

110. Great!

I'm glad to hear that your granddaughter will be voting! I really like that. I'm more encouraged -- much more -- that you are talking to her about society. That is absolutely what it's all about. Your post made my day!

[SoLeftIAmRight]

102. "easier to be patient, when you are comfortable"

if you ignore

climate change and that the sixth global mass-extinction event is happening now

[H2O Man]

111. Right.

It's here. We can have puppets in DC pretend it isn't, but it is here. Knocking on that door.

http://www.wbng.com/news/local/Binghamton-schools-lead-levels-shut-down-water-sources-370093481.html?cid=facebook_WBNG-TV_Action_News

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

103. In some ways Bernie is a continuation of Occupy.

At some point camping out in parks couldn't go any further, but the Occupy movement made a lot of people pay attention to the entrenched corruption of our financial systems. Bernie is taking the next steps - trying to use politics to root out the corruption. He might not win the nomination but this isn't going away.

[H2O Man]

112. Yes, exactly.

Very well said. I appreciate that.

[FourScore]

119. I was hoping you would post something.

Your posts always help me think. I need to think right now, to settle my sad heart. I see no way that the movement will win this time, and I am afraid it will be a long time before there is another opportunity. A politician with Bernie's honesty and integrity won't happen again any time soon. He has come so far... but he just can't fight the machine and win. No one can.

You mention the Occupy movement. It was big, very big; but what did it accomplish? When will the movements of this generation really produce change, especially against the ruling class? Who will ever be able to conquer the machine?

Unfortunately, this election has confirmed for me that it is hopeless. I'm sorry to be so down, but it is how I have been feeling since Nevada. Not because of the caucus results - I thought they were fine. It's because of the message handed out by the media, essentially the drumbeat of inevitability. There are so many members of DU who I respect and admire, and they are Hillary supporters. How do they not see the movement that is happening? The once in a lifetime moment right before their eyes? This could truly be a defining moment in history. Yet, they do not embrace it. They support the establishment and super PACs. It's so sad to me.

I love the movement. I love the man. I hate the machine. And I hate the feeling I am left with in the end.

I know this feeling so well. I felt it when the Supreme Court stopped democracy in its tracks. I felt again it when I saw the election numbers change in unrealistic fashion right before my very eyes on national TV (which ultimately brought me to DU). I felt it when the towers fell. I felt it while watching the the politicians and media lead us into war. I know this feeling all too well.

And, I do not believe Hillary will be able to win the general. The establishment's one-sided meddling in the election will have done too much damage to the party by then. The reformers will be too disgusted. And her Southern firewall will go red.

[H2O Man]

120. Thank you.

I am writing an essay that focuses on what SC means, and what it doesn't mean. I will say that it is what was expected. It doesn't discourage me in the least. Quite the opposite.

Back to work on that .......

[Zorra]

121. ^