2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSuppose Hillary Clinton wins the Primary, an outcome that most
Hillary Clinton voters foresee.
If she loses against Trump, which is, by all bets the de facto Republican nominee, what will that say to you about the Democratic Party?
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peacebird
(14,195 posts)And there will be a progressive third party to challenge the status quo going forward
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and this is their last shot to represent the people, I believe.
Failure to the right and failure to the left leads the voter to abandon labels.
I don't know if we are there, yet, but it seems awfully close.
RichGirl
(4,119 posts)Better question is WHY would she lose to Trump. Only if Sanders supporters are too busy licking their wounds to go to the polls.
Some may remember the 2000 election. Bill Maher and Michael Moore did not like Gore. They were sure Bush would not win. So...they told all their fans to vote for Nader to "make a statement". The election was so close it was eventually decided by the Supreme Court. They ruled in Bush's favor, even though Gore won in the popular vote.
Thanks to so many "making a statement" by voting for Nader...we got eight years of Bush, an unnecessary war, thousands of our troops dead...hundreds of thousand innocent Iraqi people dead and a tanked economy.
Our leaders reflect the quality of the people. You can't expect a highly evolved leader, when half the country is made up of morons!
Your vote is too important to play with. Don't vote with your ego. Vote with your brain. There's too much at stake.
Nt
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)silvershadow
(10,336 posts)We should welcome them to the party with open arms, as we are a wide tent. This is a primary. The question of who can bring more people to the polls will have been answered, just as was WARNED about by those very voters ahead of time. No one owes a candidate a vote. Just ask George McGovern. Hillary supporters are tone deaf to how they sound on this board. I won't be shamed into voting, nor will I submit to the very triangulation that got us into this mess. Reagan Democrats can just go away as far as I am concerned. We will pull more Sanders supporters from other demographics. The idea that these new and first time voters were owed to a candidate not even of their party is so myopic it hurts me to hear them wail and whine.
Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)Without actually doing something to earn that vote. When your platform consists of "vote for me because Supreme Court", maybe you should Find another way to explain why you deserve my vote.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)Gore won Floriduh. He was just trumped by the Supremes Court.
We all know that Gore won by at least 550 votes in that state, even though Jeb launched a voter suppression scheme to take as many people of color off the rolls as possible.
Nader had nothing to do with it.
Here's a link to an article that may help you remember: http://www.gregpalast.com/theft-of-the-presidency/
There's a link to a video there too, if you are too occupied to read it.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)the mistakes of 2000.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Gotta get warmed up for all the hippy punching.
Head-to-head polls currently have them within a statistical tie. And that's on the national level, where winning CA 80-20 helps.
It can get much weirder when you consider the electoral college. You know, like what happened in 2000.
200,000 registered Democrats in Florida voted for W.
20,000 registered Democrats in Florida voted for Nader.
You're attempting to claim the problem was the number that is 10 times smaller.
Which part of my brain is supposed to ignore the electoral college? 'Cause my brain is well aware my state's electors will be voting for the Republican if Clinton is our nominee. Thus giving me "the luxury" of a meaningless vote.
Also, some of us have a much, much longer view. If we continue the status quo, as Clinton proposes, my children will never see Miami or many other coastal cities. Because they will be underwater. Minor technocratic tweaks are not good enough anymore. And supporting free trade policies like the one we just used at the WTO to devastate solar power in India is actively harmful.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)I agree, anybody that was at all responsible or complicit in this mess should not be entrusted with any position of responsibility in our government at all. Especially if they voted in favor of it out of political expediency or cowardice, knowing what a disaster it was going to be.
I will be voting for the candidate who, in my perception, mostly nearly aligns with my interests and opinions as to what is best for me.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)The blame is Solely on them.
monicaangela
(1,508 posts)I don't believe you can tie the 2000 election to what people feel today. Let me just say this. Many people are against Hillary Clinton for reasons that are verifiable regarding her past record. Take this example for instance:
TDale313
(7,820 posts)You can blame Sanders voters all ya want. If she loses it'll be because America just wasn't buying what she was selling. The DNC has been doing a horrible job at voter outreach. They have basically told the liberals in the party to fuck off. They're there to meet the needs of their voters/supporters not vice versa.
And frankly it's not the base/liberals who have dumped the party. It's the Independents/Mushy middle that the party keeps chasing that aren't showing up. And guess what? Independents don't like Hillary. At all. But they luv Trump.
Vote2016
(1,198 posts)voting for her as the best just-right-of-Nixon option.
TM99
(8,352 posts)Currently it is around 30% of registered voters and that reflects an increase in voters registering in closed primary states to try and elect Sanders. It will shrink back down within months to less than 25%.
Here is the reality that the party faithful on the Clinton side refuse to acknowledge. Not all leftists are Democrats. Sorry. We are Greens, socialists, and independents. We are blacks, Asians, Hispanics, whites, gay, straight, male, and female. We are new voters from the Millennial and Post Millennial generations all the way up to Gen X'ers, Baby Boomers and Silents. There is no requirement here at DU to be a registered Democrat to post.
In a two party system, we have had no choice but to vote with and vote for Democrats. And when the Democratic Party truly represented the left and was a big-tent organization, we did so. We may not have agreed with everything, but we certainly agreed with enough to give y'all victories.
Then the DLC and the Clintons appeared in the late 1980's. They believe the only way to win was to move to the right in order to occupy the center. The problem with that though was that the conservatives were already moving so much farther right that what was now the 'center' was actually just moderately socially liberal but still very much 1980's Republicans. Big business, fewer taxes, against the FDR New Deal but pro-choice on abortion and eventually evolving into accepting LGBT marriage rights (but damned were they bigots for decades until they did so!)
Many leftists including many Democrats got snookered by the neoliberalism and New Dem's message. And winning I am sure felt real good after Carter's defeat to Reagan. But the party was and is no longer a big tent. The Democratic Party does not support us and hasn't for many decades now. You disparage Greens and blame Nader for Bush, when it was a corrupt SCOTUS, a corrupt GOP state party, and 200,000 Democratic voters who went for Bush in FL, not the Greens that made it close enough to steal. You call democratic socialist positions and policies 'pie in the sky', 'free stuff', and sparkly unicorn guano. You demand that independents just hold their noses and vote for the Democrat based on fear of a SCOTUS appointment. Hell the first person floated by Obama to the SCOTUS is god damned Republican!
And now y'all need us. You can't win the GE without the leftist Greens, socialists, and independents. And here you are again calling us morons and overly emotional types because we are sick of being shamed into voting for a party that does NOT support us or represent us. Vote for us, you say. Why, we now ask? You are not going to represent those positions and policies that we want and need. Well vote out of fear then because Republicans are surely worse than us. Why? Y'all are already scary enough. Do you think we want another free-trade loving, corporatist slowly evolving lying bigoted & racist Clinton anywhere near the White House? Well fine, fuck you then, if you don't vote for us, it is your fault if we lose. No buddy, it is not our fault. It is solely the fault of registered Democrats who are the ones too 'moronic' apparently to see what their party has become and the bullies who think they can dictate to other adults what is important.
And guess what, quite a few of y'all have woken up to the reality of the New Dem with their neoliberal economic and neo-con foreign policies. Y'all are leaving the party and joining US now. And we welcome you with open arms the way they once welcomed us. Let's get Greens elected locally and hopefully nationally. Let's get more socialists and independents elected like was done in Seattle. Let's start a progressive movement & revolution to take back the left.
If you still want us as a voting bloc to vote with the Democratic Party come November, then hope to god it is because Sanders is the primary victor. He is the first politician running in the Democratic Party in decades who doesn't put us down. He is a leftist. He walks the talk. He wants the same things we do - economic AND fucking social justice, not just platitudes and Hope & Change ad campaigns but more of the same conservative neoliberalism that dominates our country today. So we are inspired and have hope. And we will keep fighting. And if he loses, I doubt many of us will support Clinton. Sure the registered Democrats who want Sanders likely will. They feel loyal to the party they are in. But we marginalized left likely will not.
Now before you get all ToS on me, this is the primary. I won't hang around here during the remainder of the election season if Clinton is the nominee. I won't advocate for a third party here. I won't fight against her here if she finagles a win. I will leave and return next November 5th after she loses so I can keep fighting to take the left back from the New Dems. I ALWAYS vote. Most of us ALWAYS vote. Y'all have just gotten in the habit of assuming it will always be for the candidate, no matter how shitty they are, with a big D after that name.
Reality is knocking my friend, and you just might want to pay attention to it.
TBF
(32,090 posts)I could say the same thing to you regarding comments you make on this board. You may be rich (is that you Chelsea?) but most folks aren't. They don't have time to worry about ego: they are too busy trying to make rent, buy shoes for their kiddos, and putting food on the table. It is unbelievably arrogant of you to assume they aren't thinking through their choices. Frankly I doubt you have any idea what their days look like.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)that scenario would tell me much more about the state of the average American voter than the state of the Democratic Party.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and maligning them doesn't appear to be much of a winning strategy, since to win, you need "the average American voter."
Try again with a more successful one?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)on your question for me to be able to answer it. There are numerous ways to answer that, but I have no context, so expound, please.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)the Clinton family.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Too many in the Democratic party do not cherish the values of the party, cherish their party members, and are far too eager to chase wealth rather than be ethical public stewards.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Will get what they deserve.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)we all get what is coming.
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)They'll see. I can't wait for the first debate between the Queen and the Donald. Comedy Gold is what it is. And it's a good thing the Queen is familiar with Gold. Goldman Sacs, Goldwater. But it ain't gonna help her.
wyldwolf
(43,869 posts)Will Bernie supporters accuse her of cheating?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)about the Democratic Party?
(I understand that you want to change the narrative and talk about what YOU want to talk about because you don't want to answer, but that isn't what this thread is about.)
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Who will be more angry if Hillary wins? Bernie supporters or Republicans...I honestly don't know.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)and figure out where she and Clinton took the wrong turn and arrived in the particular location in history where they are.
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)why they kept doing things that made them deserve it.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)is even less appealing than Donald Trump at this point.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)out of every Democrat.
Nanjeanne
(4,975 posts)will realize that running middle-of-the-road incremental corporatists is not the way to win elections. Democrats within the party might have more courage to stand up for what once were democratic principles and I think there will be a resurgence of populism in the Democratic Party that will be instigated by young and enthusiastic people demanding real change.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)FangedNoumenom
(145 posts)"They're racist, they hate women, they're lazy millennials" etc.
JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)It'll never be their responsibilities or Hillarys, it'll be everyone else particularly bernies and his supporters.
BernieforPres2016
(3,017 posts)There is a post that says the only way Hillary would lose to Trump is if Bernie voters don't show up. They're not even going to wait for the loss. Get the excuses ready in advance.
Vote2016
(1,198 posts)
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Seriously. It's a wrap. 
MelSC
(256 posts)I kind of like that Hillary is being underestimated to be honest. Just wait and see people!
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)They'll leave him laughing when he goes.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)That in itself is quite troubling.
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)If you're on the wrong side of history, anyway.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Man, it must be fantastic to be that awesome.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)participate decided they wanted Trump and everything the Republicans will do.
"We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate."
Thomas Jefferson.
If people don't want Trump, they will participate.
If they don't participate, they wanted Trump and everything he will do.
It is that simple.
MelSC
(256 posts)Amen!
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)to take back the party. Organize so that in two years we primary each and every third way DINO who is in office, and let them know about it. We can and shall take back our party.
After all, this IS a revolution.
TBF
(32,090 posts)whom they refer to as "retards".
I will say that they should be careful with their name-calling because it might come back to bite them in the a**.
2banon
(7,321 posts)They love to hurl insults to us, just as they did in the past when many of us were supporting Obama (for very similar reasons why we're supporting Bernie).
Our choice was victorious and that was the end of the bashing. But before he won the general, it was vile. One would think they'd reconsider their tactics in this round. but apparently lessons have not been learned.
In this case, the "David and Goliath" metaphor applies even more than it was applicable in 2008 given that Bernie has a long record of fighting the status quo and on behalf of the people, which is even more significant threat to the establishment.
We know it's a long shot to win the nomination, but it's still possible IF we were playing on a level playing field. The obstacles are huge challenge to overcome, but it is possible. Struggle to restore FDR's New Deal policies OUGHT to be a cause every single Democratic Party supporter should embrace fully and get behind in the primary.
Let the Rich and Powerful sing Hillary's praises and finance her campaign. but the Rank and File here on this board really ought to be lining up with us 100%.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)That by walking away from its historic shift to the left, begun in the civil rights era, it unwittingly embraced a status quo that the people no longer want.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)despite the fact that I wish it were not true.
tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)
onenote
(42,759 posts)It will same the say thing that the other losses incurred by Democrats in my lifetime said, including Humphrey and McGovern losing to Nixon, Carter and Mondale losing to Reagan, Dukakis losing to Bush I, and Gore* and Kerry losing to Bush II.
Namely that the voters that one would expect to support the Democratic party didn't get together behind their candidate.
And that's also what I'd say if Bernie gets the nomination and loses to Trump.
But if its Trump, I don't expect either Bernie (if he's the nominee) or Clinton (if she's the nominee) to lose.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)
liberal N proud
(60,344 posts)If all these BS supporters abandon their ideals and don't vote Democrat, then it is all on them.
2banon
(7,321 posts)looking closely, sans rose colored glasses, thick wool veil.
Since I'm no insider, I can (as most others) only speculate.
On the face of it, it seems so counterintuitive for the party bosses to have thrown their collective chips in with the Clinton camp, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
I'm left scratching my head and asking what are these people thinking? The republicans can trot out Mr. Magoo and easily defeat her, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
But wait it gets worse. The Repukes are trotting out the Grand Master of all Circus Clowns and in their early primaries, their voter turn out is through the roof as compared to the Dems turnout.
Back in 2004 it was "Anybody but Bush" for us, but now that table has turned in this cycle and it's "Anybody but Clinton" for them.
This morning it struck me, maybe this is what the party establishment wants to have happen? Maybe that's the plan? Have to put on my 
