Sanders' radical message missing moderate Black voters

[bravenak]

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/sanders-radical-message-missing-moderate-blacks

[iAZZZo]

1. another link sans analysis? really???

c'mon, at least c/p some text...........

btw, are you implying with the title you're one of the "moderate Black voters"?

[bravenak]

8. No i am not moderate

[iAZZZo]

16. referencing intial query regarding implication

"are you implying with the title you're one of the "moderate Black voters"?"

inference is not "moderate" but "Black voter(s)"

correct?

[bravenak]

20. I am a black voter though not moderate

Nobody will vote or even consider any legislation I would write. Too radical. So, I just watch people fight over who is more left, this liberal woman or that progressive man when both are really just in the middle in my pov. Why should I get worked up? He's moderate on this, she is on that, both are boring in my honest opinion. Nothing radical going on.

[iAZZZo]

22. ok...... cool. thank you for direct reply bravenak

have a great night! (no snark)

[bravenak]

24. Thank you, you have a good night too.

[MaggieD]

15. Not safe to say much

If you're a Clnton supporter.

[iAZZZo]

19. not safe to say much if you're clinton.........

[center][/center]

[kristopher]

2. Clinton economic message missing bottom 99%.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1251

[bravenak]

7. Off topic

[madfloridian]

3. Oh, come on now. He's standing for things the party used to believe in.

Last edited Sat Mar 5, 2016, 01:15 AM - Edit history (1)

This statement alone is not true...Democrats have not been steadily moving left.

Yet a closer look at the current Democratic Party may reveal a more nuanced set of factors behind the lack of stickiness of Sanders’ message with black voters. White Democrats have moved further to the left, while their black counterparts have remained mostly moderate.

I've moved further left, but the party leaders have not. They are pushing TPP, changing social security, and privatizing education.

[bravenak]

5. The party used to believe alot of stuff

But since the nostalgic period was not wonderful for black democrats like it was for white democrats, we are not interested in a revisit of those nostalgic days of soda fountains and car hops and separate fountains and purple mountains.

[Bread and Circus]

10. Well the rest aren't interested in continuing Reaganism, I am surprised you are.

[bravenak]

12. I have no idea where you came up with reagan

He hated black people fyi

[Bread and Circus]

17. You don't really understand modern history do you?

Look around you... what you live in is 35 years of Reaganism. Perhaps you are just a kid and don't understand how we got where we are. That's the only excuse I think anyone could claim for not understanding the foundation of our modern political environment.

And yes, Reagan was very antipathic toward AA interests.

But given that you can't connect the dots from now back to the Reagan revolution shows me just how little insight you must have.

[bravenak]

23. I see the big picture and know that going from Reagan to Clinton

Was like heaven for US BLACKS. You cannot take that from them. Reagan actively hated us. Clinton? Not so much. We asked for a crime bill he worked to give us one. A flawed one but nevertheless WE ASKED FOR THAT CRIME BILL. We were desperate. The crime was bad and we do not like crime. We need to fix the system instead of relitigating the crime bill we asked for.

Now as for Reaganism... I am trying to move from that. For you to be madder than we are about what happens to us when we want to move forward makes me wonder who you are actually doing this for. Me? Us? If so, please focus on solutions rather than relitigating the crime bill we asked the clintons to do. Because it helped us just as much if not more than it hurt. Mass incarceration was the thing under Nixon, that is why he went crazy on the drug war. That is where you might want to lay some blame and also with the feds for scheduling the drugs in the first place.

This mass incarceration is not a thing the Clintons thought up. This has been happening since reconstruction, and if you read our history back farther than fdr, you's see that the anti cocaine hysteria began when black dockworkers used the leaves and cocaine to keep their energy up while working long hours for less pay than their white counteparts, initiating that anti cocain hysteria which had people scared of black men who couldn't be stopped, similar to the 90s superpredator myths.

Then we have the fear of asians luring women into opium dens to cause the crackdown on poppy derivatives, and the reefer madness which was a reaction to the jazz fueled intergrationy stuff going on in night clubs with all those races mixing and being friendly like. This stuff is built into our system, so blaming one person or another solely is plain ridiculuos.

[Bread and Circus]

43. I just don't think you know what you are talking about most of the time.

If you can't see that Clintonism is basically Reaganism with some socially liberal frosting on top of a shit cake then you really don't see reality as far as I'm concerned. Sorry.

[bravenak]

50. I think perhaps you are the one who needs to study a bit.

You missed a lot of history if all you can do is try to redefine clintonism as reaganism and tha settles everything for you. That is a VERY SHALLOW VIEW of history that may be because it is second or third hand info you aquired from the grassroots. Very distorted.

[Bread and Circus]

127. So says the person who seems to view everything through one very narrow lens.

[bravenak]

128. Seeming is not reality!!!

But I live it everyday. Some can ignore it for years as it does not effect them. Then when they need votes they can complain about how selfish I am for bringing my 'issues' up. Because its not selfish to only show up every four years to get votes. Or forty years. Or a hundred. But when they show up by GOD I better stuff it about my 'issues'. Or else I am 'narrowminded'.

[Bread and Circus]

131. I haven't seen you talk about one SPECIFIC ISSUE this whole primary season...

Your posts sound like a bunch of emotional gibberish to me, but about 'issues' in any practical sense.

[bravenak]

132. You must be having trouble understanding my posts then

I guess you don't read enough of them

[Bread and Circus]

133. I read them all the time...but like I said... you don't write about actual issues

[bravenak]

134. Race is an actual issue

[Bread and Circus]

135. Well....I guess...maybe? I think of race as an identity, not an issue.. there's a plethora of issues

surrounding race, racial relations, and racial identity. But race itself isn't really an issue in my mind. It certainly is not specific in the way you use it.

What about race? What about race relations? What about laws that affect racial outcomes?

Everything I have seen you write is general in nature and not really specific and not really anything that is actionable in any way. Perhaps I missed some of your mad genius posts somewhere but I doubt I have.

All I can surmise is that you are "angry" the powers that be (I am assuming this means white folks) are somehow ignoring your "issues" but you don't really talk about those issues in a discussable or actionable way or or how they can be legally remedied.

An example would be: X bad factor in society causes Y ill effect for African Americans, which could be remedied by Z, which my candidate supports and my candidate's opponent does not.

That is what I mean.

All I hear from a lot of folks here is to "shhhh...." and "listen".... then if we do, crickets.... or something to the effect of "I don't care if Bernie supported AA back in the 60's when it was highly unpopular for white folks to do so...that means nothing to me now because he hasn't shmoozed with top tier black leaders lately, so y'all better understand we are the core of the Democratic Party"...then you rub our noses in it when the Black Vote puts Hillary over the top in a Southern state we will never win in the General Election.

[bravenak]

136. You want to define it and discuss it in your terms so I can see why you are frustrated

Everything I discuss about race is about the effect it has on us, not how it makes you feel to have it discussed in a way that is not pleasing to you. It is not supposed to make you comfortable, it is not comfortable for us to live. But the astounding amount of resistence to discussing it from our pov is probably why these conversation devolve into a mess of privilege and anger.

It is a thing. How we are treated is an issue, no matter who does the offending. You want this discussed in your terms or dismissed outright as not being discussable. Too bad. This will be discussed more and more and more as the nation becomes browner. Race is an issue and ignoring it and sidelining it as a wedge issue or not discussable unless done on your terms is not a way to build a sustainable movement. Because some of us actually have issues that are directly related yo our race not our economic status and we want solutions to racism yes. We want it solved. Fix racism is what I am saying and no, I do not believe it is the only problem in the united states of American that can never ever ever be solved. We have never tried. Until that is understood many will remain angry that it is even brought up.

[Bread and Circus]

137. I just want you to make sense that's all.

The problem is you don't make sense most of the time andyour post just now is a classic example.

You just sound angry and confused with a very loose relationship with reality.

"Fix racism" you say....

What does that even mean?

[bravenak]

138. I have a firm grip on reality

It is you that lacks understanding of the topic at hand and want me to explain it to you in a way that makes you feel good.

[Bread and Circus]

139. Killer Mike makes sense, Spike Lee makes sense,

Nina Turner makes sense.

Your posts, on the other hand, are an emotional grab-bag of slogans and misdirections.

[bravenak]

140. That is very rude.

[Bread and Circus]

141. I don't care if you think I am rude.

I just have a hard time with posts that don't adhere to reason, logic, and facts.

By engaging you I am showing you respect.

I have had numerous posters tell me via PM's to ignore your threads.

Would you rather be ignored?

Again though all of this you allude to "issues" in some nebulous way and imply if people don't support Clinton they are insensitive to your "issues" but don't dicuss them in an actionable way.

[bravenak]

142. Umm hmm

[Bread and Circus]

143. What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Again... emotional taunts from you.

Case in point.

[bravenak]

144. You are the one being rude and perhaps emotional

[Bread and Circus]

146. I think all I have done is point out the obvious.

[bravenak]

147. You have made personal attacks and insulted my grip on reality

Used profanity, and have been terribly rude. I'd appreciate an apology.

[Bread and Circus]

148. I am sorry but you don't deserve an apology.

I would appreciate it if you started talking about specific issues in a manner that is fair and discussable.

I doubt that is going to happen, sadly.

[bravenak]

149. Thankful for freedom of expression right now

I decide how I discuss things as do you decide how you discuss things. Please try not to worry yourself over what and how I discuss...

[Bread and Circus]

150. Well if you want to live in a bubble, go for it.

[bravenak]

151. Mirror

[oasis]

45. Excellent post bravenak. Many DUers intentionly avoid the "big picture"

when it comes to the overall Clinton administration record.

[Armstead]

49. The Big Picture also has to include the years following the Clinton administration

I know, I know....Bush.

But it's the after effects of policies that really matter .Bush and the GOP had a road paved for their plans by the Clintons in many ways.

[Quayblue]

107. Spot on nt

[madfloridian]

21. I don't want to go back to those days either.

It was a sad time in our history. I remember those fountains well. The signs over them.

But what's wrong with soda fountains and car hops?

[bravenak]

25. We were not allowed to use their services so it makes us sad to think about it.

[Lizzie Poppet]

4. You can't simultaneously reach progressive leftists and non-progressive moderates.

Well...not and actually be honest about what you're saying to each group. Credit to Bernie that he doesn't try to pretend otherwise.

[bravenak]

6. No credit

[Blue_In_AK]

9. I'm sorry, but

you don't get to tell Lizzie Poppet to whom she can give credit.

[bravenak]

11. Looks like she was suggesting 'we' should

And that no credit was me saying I do not give him credit just for being unchanging. She can credit whoever she wants.
For me? A leader needs to change as the situation changes.

Besides. We all know I say whatever I want.

[Blue_In_AK]

13. As do we all.

[bravenak]

14. Good

[Lizzie Poppet]

29. Nope. Just my own view.

What you think in that matter is of no import to me (and, I presume, vice-versa).

[bravenak]

30. Umm hmm

[Lizzie Poppet]

44. Gosh, your "contributions" to these discussions are SO enlightening.

And I actually mean that. It's still not a compliment...

[bravenak]

51. Umm hmm

[Lizzie Poppet]

66. That's cool. I understand some people face extraordinary challenges.

"At least you tried..."

[bravenak]

68. Umm hmm

[Lizzie Poppet]

74. Thanks...and you realize what you're dealing with here, right?

Not exactly droll...but it kinda sounds that way.

[bravenak]

76. Wow

[Lizzie Poppet]

82. Golly! You can do something other than C&P two words into a subject line!

Sure, it's only one very short word...but that's progress! My hearty congratulations.

FYI: if you do nothing but post assholish, condescending one-liners and other shit-stirring, juvenile crap to people, they're going to see quite clearly what you're doing and pitch you shit for it. You reap what you sow, sparky.

Now alert away and try and silence me in the thread...like your lot is trying to silence all us Bernie supporters before the primaries are actually decided. Wouldn't want to break character, after all.

[bravenak]

88. Nice try

If somebody wants to alert you they can have it. Not interested.

[Lizzie Poppet]

90. Umm hmm

[bravenak]

92. Exactly

[Lizzie Poppet]

94. Thank goodness we finally managed to get on the same page!

[bravenak]

96. I think we can both see when futility reigns

[Lizzie Poppet]

102. The current division in microcosm, in a way.

I rather suspect that for many, there's no patching things up after this primary. I'd be very worried indeed about the future of progressive politics...except things are never going to be the same for the Republicans, either. We live in interesting times...

[bravenak]

109. I agree

I think that this will actually help us in the future. All of the misteps can be avioded with the next very liberal candidate by reviewing what failed this time. The republicans.... In my area, they went for Ted Cruz, our liberals vote soon and will go Bernie sanders. Those two are actually the ideology of the future in our respective parties. Ted Cruz has something wrong with him to the point that a few of my repub friends who hate Donald are voting in the dem caucus for either Hillary (if religious) or bernie (if they hate BILL, it's Bill they hate cause MORALS).

Bernie actually served a good purpose whether winning or not. He brought back the conversation we were all too scared of republicans to have. Improving our safety net. It's like we opened pandoras box, we have extreme crazies on the right, which makes sense for us to move left. Which we are. Nobody can take that from him. You may not see it now, but the entire party has had a reawakening. We are finally not SCARED of crazy ass republicans.

[Blue_In_AK]

103. Yes, of course, I realize she has her moments,

but Brave is a "who," not a "what," and although we very seldom see eye to eye, I wouldn't call her a "rhymes with droll." More like an agitator. She does seem to enjoy the fray.

[Lizzie Poppet]

105. Fair enough.

My exchange with her actually morphed into something a tad more civil, and with at least a bit of actual substance. It's always nice to be pleasantly surprised (a sentiment she may be feeling, too, as I suspect her opinion of me ain't the best, either).

[Blue_In_AK]

108. That's always been my experience, too.

The conversations may start out rough, but feelings can usually be smoothed over with a little back-and-forth.

[SheenaR]

18. If his message is radical

It may be time for me to pack the bags and find a place where it's not considered radical.

[bravenak]

26. Meh. Its all moderate imo

[Gwhittey]

27. Sanders biggest issue

Is his policy of wanting to get money out of politics. That is killing him in this primary because as we see from link MSNBC and many others are really out to stop him from doing this. So many people who don't use internet for news and just get it from TV are really missing out what he truly is about. Too bad really that thing you are fighting is very thing that is keep most of America oppressed by convincing them to some made up narrative.

[bravenak]

28. It is his extreme focus on one message and lack of a broad range of policy positions

on all of the issues Democrats care about.

[JonLeibowitz]

31. Do you believe in running for president only if your views are shared by a majority

of the American people?

What if you have radical views on most topics?

[bravenak]

32. I have radical views on most topics

Nobody will ever run who is going to do what I know needs doing. Ever.

[JonLeibowitz]

33. That wasn't my question

Do you think it is reasonable to run for president on a platform that the majority of Americans do not support? Or are you necessarily constrained to advocating positions that Americans support, as demonstrated by public polling? It's a simple question, and not about you; it is a broader question.

[bravenak]

34. No. It is not.

The majority will turn against anything that smacks of radicalism, even those who claim to be radical. It just depends on what type of radical and how absolutely desperate the MAJORITY is. If things are so so, nope, no chance, if you run both sides will smash you. If things are bad for some but not too bad for most, status quo reigns. If things are good for most? Some radical things might get passed by consensus but it will just be radical in name only. If shit is bad for most and people are literally starving in the streets? Yes. Then you should run on a radical platform because you will win. America loves an optimist who sells dreams of brighter days to us, the consumer driven people of the technology age. We are choosing a product, really. I think you know this.

[JonLeibowitz]

35. Unfortunately,

you are correct.

[bravenak]

36. I'm sorry.

[Kumbricia]

155. Bernie has a broad range of policy positions

https://berniesanders.com/issues/

He has spoken about them and written about them. Maybe you would like to try listening to him.

Income and Wealth Inequality
It's Time to Make College Tuition Free and Debt Free
Getting Big Money Out of Politics and Restoring Democracy
Creating Decent Paying Jobs
A Living Wage
Combating Climate Change to Save the Planet
A Fair and Humane Immigration Policy
Racial Justice
Fighting for Women's Rights
Fighting for LGBT Equality
Caring for Our Veterans
Medicare For All
Fighting for Disability Rights
Strengthen and Expand Social Security
Fighting to Lower Prescription Drug Prices
Supporting Historically Black Colleges and Universities
Improving the Rural Economy
Reforming Wall Street
Real Family Values
War and Peace
War Should Be the Last Option: Why I Support the Iran Deal


Bernie has focused most on inequality because: Without money, none of the other stuff is possible and also: Lack of money is what is causing most poverty-related issues. Solve the inequality problem and a lot of problems get solved as well.

[jillan]

37. That's one person's opinion, and here is another that feels Hillary's message is too radical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=O6xMxLs498c

To each their own.

[bravenak]

38. The numbers bear this out

He loses us by about sixty percent

[AtomicKitten]

58. I've been following Tim Black. He's on fire and an excellent advocate.

Here's a great video of Killer Mike laying waste to a BIG LIE perpetrated here.

[bravenak]

61. Lor'!

[AgingAmerican]

39. Sanders policies are mainstream and poll positively across all demographics

[bravenak]

52. His policies might but HE DOES NOT

[AgingAmerican]

159. So you admit his message isn't radical

EOM

[Gothmog]

40. Great article in OP

I like this passage from article cited in OP

Among black Democrats in six Super Tuesday states who were surveyed about race relations, about half believe things have gotten worse. And almost as many, 48 percent, said they only trust Hillary Clinton to handle race relations, according to NBC News Exit Polls. Another poll showed fewer than 1-in-10 said they only trust Sanders.

Black voters may very well be less concerned about foreign policy, or about whether or not they can trust her handling of classified information, but they trust her to be an ally and to push an agenda that sits with their aspirations and the aspirations of their children.

Belcher speculated that if you were to lay out a number of issues of importance to the African-American community, from healthcare to K-12 education, and ask black voters who lines up most with where they are on those issues between Sanders and Clinton, Sanders would lose most of the time.

“There’s still a question mark around him,” Belcher said.

[bravenak]

55. He does not show how his plans affect discrete groups of demographics

He does not realize it will help some but harm otjers as written because those groups are not prominent in his state

[Gothmog]

72. I agree with your analysis

[Jitter65]

41. Here is why it may be missing its mark.

One thing most are missing is that many of the things highlighted when Bill clinton came into office was very progressive. What hit him and slapped him in the face was something called reality. Despite all the good intentions in the beginning of his terms in office, Bill was swiftly met with the back hand of some powerful men of the "system." But what most black and brown folks remember about his Presidency is the fact that they had jobs, career opportunities, could send their kids to college and good schools, buy homes, and put a little money in the bank. It never was Bill's intention or his nature to screw over poor people or black people...remember he spent all of his childhood the poor kid of a single alcoholic parent. He was smart and a quick learner and the good that he was able to do was because he had to make certain concessions to the power brokers.

The aftermath of the decisions he made when he was out of office came crashing down on the very people he so badly wanted to help. You must go back and see his platform and intentions. He came into office befriending blacks and the poor and was immediately despised for it among those he had to deal with in Congress and the corporate world. But he still pushed blacks into high ranking government positions, corporate board rooms, and gave them a visibility that had not had previously. Did it all turn out well...NO. But it wasn't because he didn't try.

That nasty welfare reform bill that folk decry was not singly put in place by Bill Clinton..he vetoed two similar bills with much harsher reforms. The bill that finally passed was one that the Congress had told him would not withstand a veto so he negotiated the best possible deal and put in place some positive changes that actually did help people.

Nothing occurs in a vacuum. People learn from mistakes. It is grand to have noble ideas about the economy and society. But nothing can replace the experience of having lived and learned through it. He had plenty of regrets, as I am sure Obama will have...no one escapes reality. But to think that Bernie Sanders will be able to side-step that same reality is immature and in some respects disingenuous.

Despite her flaws..and we all have them..Hillary Clinton is still the best person to step into the Oval Office as President. She has a lot to make up for and she knows where all the bodies lay. She knows the players, their weaknesses, their strengths, and she is not unfamiliar with the plight of blacks and women. Sure, Bernie Sanders marched in DC with MLK march and he played a role is a campus CORE organization. But then he went off to live in lily white Vermont and wasn't heard of by most blacks until lately.

Hillary has been continuously on the scene in the trenches of raw politics, on the bitter end of trashing and lies and innuendo. She has been a loyal Obama supporter no matter the motives ascribed to her rightly or wrongly. I want to give her a chance to fix what is wrong with those trade deals using her knowledge of the power players. I want to give her a chance to fix what is wrong with our justice system because she really feels she owes us. I want to give her a chance to fix the systems for the poor because that is really where her heart is. I want to give her the chance to break those ties with AIPAC and stand up to the Israeli lobby as Obama has done and still support a safe and secure state for Israel as well as one for the Palestinian people. I want us to go out and vote for a Congress that will help her do those things and state governors and legislatures that will actually become partners in accomplishing what is good for our country. That is why I support Hillary Clinton for President.

[oasis]

47. +1 and then some.

[bravenak]

54. I agree. I think many refuse to look at the past and actually see what was there.

[Vinca]

42. Maybe because Bernie wants his proposals to benefit everyone and isn't much of a panderer.

What an evil, evil man.

[bravenak]

53. Or because he never realized that he need to appeal to a broad spectrum of DEMOCRATS

[ZX86]

62. Bernie isn't selling himself.

He's promoting ideals. Positive ideals sell themselves. Less than positive ideals require aggressive marketing to succeed. Successful marketing does not equal a quality product. It just means it was sold harder.

[bravenak]

64. They are all selling themselves and their ideas as products

This is america. That is what we do.

[ZX86]

95. No that is not what we do.

Informed consumers base their choices on the quality of the product. Not the skills of the sales person.

[bravenak]

99. No. They base it on what's cool and new

Like always

[ZX86]

115. That's what consumers who make poor decisions do.

Smart consumers make unbiased evaluations unhindered by skills of the sales person or what may be fashionable at the time.

[bravenak]

116. And we both know most consumers do not make good choices most of the time

Look how fat we are in this nation! We just do what feels good. Seriously, I believe this.

[ZX86]

119. Consumers presented with unbiased and factual information

make informed and smart choices.

[bravenak]

121. How often does that happen though?

Rarely that I see

[DCBob]

46. I think most African Americans are simply happy with Hillary.

Most non-AA's are also...like me.

[SidDithers]

48. DU rec...nt

Sid

[ALBliberal]

56. Yawn your spiel so tiresome. Wash rinse repeat. nt

[bravenak]

57. Tiresome because I'm right, like usually.

[ALBliberal]

59. Not so much. Have a good day you who is always right according to you! nt

[bravenak]

60. Very much

[Jester Messiah]

152. *snrk*

Yeah, okay...

[bravenak]

153. Just watch

I started my psychic predictions in august and they are mostly on track. I did think Omalley would link up with Clinton so that one was wrong.

[fleabiscuit]

63. K&R

[betsuni]

65. K&R

[cherokeeprogressive]

67. I SO love race-based posts.

Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Am I the only person who's fucking tired of the divisive way Hillary Clinton supporters cling to race-based divisiveness? Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race. Race race nothing but race.

[bravenak]

69. Too bad

[cherokeeprogressive]

70. Classic One-Trick-Pony stuff.

[cherokeeprogressive]

73. That's just an outright fucking lie. You must be proud of yourself...

He discusses race every single fucking day. You just don't like the context.

[bravenak]

75. He cannot discuss it in context

Because he can only discuss the economics of it all. You are right. One trick.

[cherokeeprogressive]

77. And you post lies.

[bravenak]

78. No

[cherokeeprogressive]

79. YES. ------> "He cannot discuss race." is a fucking lie. Outright, bald-faced lie.

[bravenak]

81. No

"I SAID BLACK FIFTY TIMES!!" That is not discussing race.

[cherokeeprogressive]

84. Wow. And post #81 isn't discussing anything at all.

Nonsensical. Farcical. Comical. Maybe you're not a one-trick-pony after all.

[bravenak]

86. I have many thing I do

[cherokeeprogressive]

87. I can tell.

[bravenak]

89. I guess not so one trick then

Like Mr Vermont

[Marr]

93. So am I. It seems to be all HRC's supporters can do.

Just this sort of casual, almost not-even-paying-attention trolling.

Whatever.

[msanthrope]

104. Yeah....race is so tiresome. To the privileged. nt

[Number23]

145. Ain't that the truth. And the person whining has a racial/ethnic identifier in his moniker

But he's so tired of race!!11

[msanthrope]

154. The silly season cannot come to an end too soon here.

I expect this week will be filled with the math-challenged struggling to accept the inevitable...

[w0nderer]

158. Jury results

On Sun Mar 6, 2016, 06:27 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I SO love race-based posts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1420758

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

What is this? If the poster can't discuss the OP, he chooses to post incendiary accusations.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Mar 6, 2016, 06:34 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No hide. Poster identifies a real dilemma for DU. Racism is... in fact... racism, regardless of the skin color of the racist in question. DU is going to enable the racism or it is going to stop it in its tracks. NO HIDE.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The point made is appropriate though the post itself is rather juvenile. Unfortuantely being juvenile is not a cause for censorship.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Sometimes pure flame-baiting posts need to get a hide and this is one of those times. Enough!
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Peregrine Took]

80. I have lived around and worked with black people for decades and will say

they are, in the main, pretty conservative. Many white libs are surprised by this but it is true.

[bravenak]

85. Less conservative than republicans

But more liberal than whites as a whole. We always vote dem even if conservative. We may not agree with certain things but love the freedom to make our own choices so we choose to VOTE LIBERAL regardless of how we personally identify. I know anti abortion blacks who will not vite for an anti abortion candidate because abortion is a private choice in their opinion.

[cherokeeprogressive]

98. What's the shape of the monolith you just restricted PoC to? Rectangular? Triangular?

"We always this, we always that."

Just wow.

[bravenak]

101. Human

We have a history that you are not a part of and a culture that you do not understand, apparently.

This entire race I accurately have predicted what black voters will do. Yet still you are angry and disbelieving. I suppose that the next candidate you find might listen to a person like me to help them understand the nuances of black culture in america. I have relatives from New Jersey to Louisiana, pittsburg to los angeles, texas to alaska. All voting exactly the same for the same exact reasons, funny that.

[cherokeeprogressive]

106. That your relatives are all voting exactly the same isn't a surprise nor is it a shock.

When you say you've accurately predicted what "black voters" will do, what was the percent you predicted would support Bernie Sanders?

And I'll ask you the same question I asked in response to another of your posts... What "side" do you believe Bernie Sanders is on?

[bravenak]

111. I predicted he would get twenty

Bernie is on your side

[cherokeeprogressive]

114. LOL. Mmmmkay.

[consciouslocs]

117. Socially, speaking,...

I agree with your point as an AA Southerner. We (my family/friends) own guns, attend Baptist/AME, etc. It does not influence our party affiliation due to the racial polarization of both parties in the South. I am not passionate about either candidate, but I would like to hear more on National security/military/foreign affairs from SEN. Sanders. I can see him as a President working hard on the economic issues, but I have a hard time seeing him as a Commander in Chief.

[Autumn]

83. Nothing he or his surrogates can do about it.

People of all races and genders should just vote their conscience. I know I will.

[bravenak]

91. He could say something that makes us know he is on OUR side

But I do NOT EXPECT HIM TO EVEN TRY

[Autumn]

97. I don't think he will either, as far as I'm concerned he has said all I need to hear.

Of course that's just me and I'm good with it.

[cherokeeprogressive]

100. What "side" do you think he's on?

[bravenak]

112. Yours

[Autumn]

123. I don't think moderates of any race, gender or age like Bernie's message.

Ir's not a matter of sides, it's a matter of the left as in progressives, the center as in moderates, and the right as in conservatives. Progressives and the conservatives who hate Hillary and the nutcases running in the republican party will go with Bernie.

[MellowDem]

118. He has said some things...

but he doesn't do the targeted messages most other politicians do depending on the demographic (that some perceive as pandering). I don't think it's his style, it's not in him to do it, and if he tries he can't do it well.

Even if he did it, I don't think it would make a difference, it's not like it stops Hillary from doing the same thing, and Hillary is a much longer known figure than Sanders ever will be.

I don't think most voters change their mind based on targeted messaging, I think it comes down to how people perceive a candidates ideology in relation to their own and how people perceive a candidates electability. In these regards, most voters already have very good perceptions of how they feel about Hillary, Sanders is much more of a question mark, and voters don't like voting question marks, especially when the other side has so many dangerous candidates.

All four of the Republican candidates are incredibly conservative, Trump in some weird ways is among the most moderate, and in others the most willing to throw red meat to the base without even using dog whistles. Yet the way each Republican candidate is perceived is very different. Kasich somehow is seen as a moderate, when his policy positions and actions are incredibly conservative, on par with Rubio and Cruz. Rubio is also seen as moderate, and Cruz as the evangelical vote. But perception seems to be what it's all about, and the campaigns try to shape voters perceptions, and generally succeed, because the media is more than willing to amplify them to set up a "horse race" between factions of a party.

I think Sanders doesn't really try to change perceptions that are applied to him to his advantage, and I don't think most Democrats are that comfortable a straightforward socialist candidate, the party is pretty conservative, when was the last time any self-described socialist was on the ticket? It's no wonder he had to come from outside the party. It's mainly been third way strategy for decades, and if there is a shift coming, and Sanders is a symptom of it, it's still a couple decades from being viable politically in the US from what I've seen.

[bravenak]

120. I am going to tentively agree with your assessment

I think perhaps another seemingly far left candidate can learn from this election and perhaps you are rught, twenty years from now we can have a real chance. But the idea of pandering needs to die. I call it forming an emotional bond with discrete groups. That is what he lackedd in comparison to her among minorities and older women.

Do I see either one as far left? No. They are both centrists to me, though liberal ones. There is no far left in american politic in thid nation started as a religious colony, imo. There wont be for some years. Then maybe I can get all excited.

[MellowDem]

125. I do think pandering is a real thing...

that is in meant to mimic "an emotional bond with discrete groups". And whether a person thinks it's pandering or sincere is subjective, but it is a strategy that is used and that, at least for Republicans, DU pretty roundly agrees is used all the time. And it's all over politics, American or otherwise. Whether people think this bond is real or not is all in the perception, and probably in their perception of politics in general. Many people think politicians are never being sincere.

I don't think talking to a group about their interests is automatically "pandering", but my perception is that if a politician only talks to a group about a subject each election time in campaign mode, then never does anything they talked about, or takes any action, or in fact goes against what they talked about doing when governing, much less highlights and focuses on those issues, then I think that is pandering.

But as I said, I don't think emotional bonds with candidates is how most people vote. And if it was Sanders would be screwed as a big part of any emotional bond is time, and he wouldn't have enough of time to do develop it, and the only perception many would have of him as such a newcomer is in campaign mode.

I don't think Sanders is winning over huge chunks of younger voters because of an emotional bond with them, for example. People could think Sanders promise of "free stuff" like free college is a cynical form of pandering to young voters, and I could see where their cynicism comes from. I certainly have it in spades.

If people don't trust Hillary, and many don't, even among Democrats, based on lots of good reasons, then they will be less likely to think her overtures to any group are sincere. But I don't think that's what most people really care about. I certainly don't think she is honest. But my main priority for the primaries is who I perceive to be ideologically most in common, not "trustworthiness" per se. Lots of people vote on electability considerations too, where the perception for Hillary is great. Whatever people think of her, if they think she can beat the greater evil, it doesn't matter.

I'll be voting for Hillary in the general election because I care less about trustworthiness in this case than ideology (and the opposing candidate certainly won't seem honest in comparison anyways).

I do think there is quite a gap in ideology between Sanders and Clinton, in policy positions to some degree, but especially on the question of representative government and the role of big monied interests. Clinton is very much bought and paid for IMHO, several times over, and Sanders isn't, and that's fairly unique of most any politician in the US. Where big monied interests' priorities align with liberals, it's hard to tell the difference, but it's where they diverge that I see so much dissonance in the Democratic Party. And I don't see the Democratic Party being able to be a vessel for progressives anytime soon with the current way elections are funded.

Most progressive moves have come from outside the party in the last couple decades, and when those movements, usually fighting Dems tooth and nail, shift public opinion where monied interests take notice do Democrats do any sort of about face. When banks start lending to marijuana dispensaries, then we'll see Democrats finally "come around" for example.

[Cobalt Violet]

110. well it's hitting a nerve with everyone I know.

[bravenak]

113. Gotta get out more

[malletgirl02]

122. It is sad how much our politics have

shifted to the right is Bernie Sanders is considered radical.

[bravenak]

124. We have been moving left for some time

This is the nation. Radical has lost meaning

[Agnosticsherbet]

126. I think characterizing Black Voters as "moderate" grossly oversimplifies the issues.

I am not impressed by the article.

[bettyellen]

129. I read it as being about black moderates, not that all blacks ARE moderate.

[Agnosticsherbet]

130. I felt it was a reference to her big wins among black voters

not just a few.

[Live and Learn]

156. In other words, many moderate blacks are abandoning those of the same color that are less well off.

Much like many white people do?

Gosh, maybe we are all just people and behave like people do. It sucks.

My question is, why are you one of those people?

[bravenak]

157. No