2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHillary Supporters - Honest Question - Are you a Center-Right Democrat?
Although I haven't been here long I notice Bernie supporters are genuinely on the Left. They are unquestionably Liberals and Progressives.
But for you Hillary supporters i can't fully grasp what your leanings are. The more i read about Hillary and her past (and her real, non-campaign, views) and the more i read posts by her supporters on here i can't help but see that you are definitely to the Right of Bernie supporters. I am not saying you are Republicans, you are definitely democrats, but just have much more conservative views than Bernie supporters.
The democratic party's principles have shifted more Right over the years relative to say the 70s and 80s. That is undeniable. And because the party's definition of what is considered Left has shifted more center-right over the years this result has caused the republican party to go even more to-the-right (and hence, more radical) -- the new definition of being "Right".
There is a divide in the democratic party where by you Hillary supporters have followed the party's rightward shift over the years (which is now defined as the new "Left" , while the other portion, the Bernie supporters, have continued to stay faithfully at the original definition of Left (of the 70s/80s) with their views.
So the real question then is do you, as Hillary supporters, view yourselves as center-right when you look back at the original definition of what it meant to be a real Left-leaning Democrat?
Thanks
pkdu
(3,977 posts)Lorien
(31,935 posts)We would call them Reagan Republicans 25 years ago, but decades of Fox "News" and Rush Limbaugh have made them think that being slightly to the left of the crazed Ayn Rand acolyte filled far right wing clown car makes them "centrists". In every other Country they're as hardcore Right as it gets, and that's why they hate us; they dislike Liberals even *more* than Reagan did!
Note: G.W.Bush and Clinton occupy the same spot on the political compass. McCain is slightly to her left, but more authoritarian.
They have moved that goalpost.
Left to them--isn't what it used to be. They have corrupted the party and like the Pied Piper have led their followers along the path with them. Corporate media shifted with them to basically destroy the true left in this country. Bernie running this year has exposed so many of them for what they truly are. They can't pretend anymore. And they hate him for that and have gone "all-in" on seeing he gets defeated so they can bury all of this and go back to pretending. We need more Bernie Sanders in the future--true and honest politicians who will keep swinging that hammer at the establishment.
It's a long fight.
DRI
(24 posts)I consider myself very socially liberal, economically liberal, but where i consider myself center right is on the issue of gun rights. Grew up in a rural area, hunted all my life, have small wooded area and yes I carry a gun with me at most times in the car and on the wooded land. Neither myself nor my partner would feel safe traveling some of these roads at night without having a weapon in the car. So for us it is a balancing act in the primaries. In the general election always Democratic candidates but often with great concern about our gun rights. We have quite a few friends who feel similar but for them they will not support a Democratic Party candidate who do not support gun rights.
Cobalt Violet
(9,905 posts)Watched it as it happened. I've always been disgusted by it and still am. I am delighted that millenniasl are Liberal. It's the only hope for the true left.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)They pretty much agree with whatever comes out of Hillary's mouth, even if she's talking out both sides.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)What has she ever done that was liberal/progressive?
I can't think of anything.
Dem2
(8,168 posts)Same on libertarian side. I support both candidates equally.
Paka
(2,760 posts)Welcome to DU!
reformist2
(9,841 posts)earthside
(6,960 posts)For many it is all about "First Woman President!"
They will deny it and object, but the way they shift around and rationalize all of Hillary's flip-flops; her clear preference for bankers, and Wall Street super investors, Walmart-type corporatists; her conservative and neocon tilt, leaves only one logical explanation: "First Woman President" and it is Hillary's turn matters more than being a good solid progressive and/or liberal.
There is some kind of odd generational loyalty to Mrs. Clinton, probably because they were denied eight years ago and it may have something to do with a sense that the 1960s-1970s era of the Women's Lib movement is owed some kind of reward and Hillary (bizarrely in my estimation) is the symbol of that yearning.
Hillary Clinton is all about the advancement of herself; she is one of those Democrats who believes that the nation is inherently conservative and that the biggest obstacle to her success is the liberal/left base of the Democratic Party. She is at best a Rockefeller Repuglican if she has much ideology at all. I have great concerns over her being president for these reasons, there is something rather Nixonian about her character in my view and see only political crisis if heaven forbid she ever get elected.
bigtree
(85,986 posts)..especially the anti-Democratic party posters?
ejbr
(5,856 posts)have taken over the party; we're anti-corporatists. The party was not as it is, so we are not just going with the flow
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)these days. And they're obviously corrupted by Moneyed Interests, this hijacking of the party (along with corporate media) in favor of Clinton2 has made that inescapably obvious.
I mean, do you really want us Democrats out here to have to CONTINUE to defend~
*Trade deals that take American jobs & give them to people working for slave wages to further enrich the rich & crush our middle class.
*Rampant & unregulated fracking, polluting our land and air and spewing pipelines across the country which spreads the risks.(keystone was just one of many, with less catchy names.) Barging radioactive waste on the Ohio River, risking the water source of millions.
*Monopolies
*Deregulated Wall Street. (we're at risk for a repeat of 2007/8)
*Unending and extremely costly (in lives & $$$) wars for corporate profit.
*Privatized everything
*Off shore oil drilling (WTF??)
*Minimum wage jobs that don't provide a living wage, and with our manufacturing jobs leaving & college out of reach for the majority, minimum wage is all that is left for the majority.)
*BigAg wiping out small farms & destroying ecosystems & bats, bees, butterflies, birds.
& so on.
What are we voting FOR when we vote for Democrats these days?
ecstatic
(32,681 posts)Liberals and Progressives" isn't true when you factor in all the threats of not voting for the Democratic nominee.
I know there are a lot of sincere progressives who support both candidates. But anyone who can't connect the dots between getting liberal policies passed and the reality of the next president nominating up to 4 Supreme Court justices is not liberal, progressive, or left. They might be closer to libertarians and anarchists?
Vattel
(9,289 posts)but way more conservative than Scalia on individual rights, executive power, and government power. I hope I am wrong.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Chan790
(20,176 posts)The American center-left and left is a hostage in its own party and will remain so until they realize, much like the end of Fight Club, that they're the ones holding the gun in their own mouth.
So, it is what it is, we are where we are...and there's a real chance this is the election when the American left decides to pull the trigger and spatter the electability of fake Democrats all over the floor, then watch out the window as the false American political landscape explodes to the atonal opening notes, lone guitar riff, and chirpy vocals of Black Francis on Where is my mind? by The Pixies.
You see doom. I see a beautiful metaphor for our liberation from the likes of Hillary and the saving of the Democratic party by those brave enough to act sanely in the face of mounting insanity and our own oppresson. They're the heroes of the Democratic party, not anarchists or libertarians...they're the only sane ones left in the tent because when they were children, their mothers read them The Lorax by Dr. Seuss and they remember:
Caring makes acting necessary. The consequences of caring lies with our enemies, including the malign right inside the Democratic party. If Hillary loses and we end up with President Trump...it will be the faults of her supporters for being allies and backers of a political hostage-taker. All the left would be doing is acting in self-defense by blowing-up her Presidential aspirations.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)dana_b
(11,546 posts)it explains (very eloquently and with great graphics!) how I and many of us feel. Thanks!!
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)BlueMTexpat
(15,366 posts)A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)for someone that is not liberal is no liberal themselves. Qualification for the job comes before who they may or may not appoint to the Supreme Court. Voting for an unqualified candidate because of who they may appoint is foolish.
Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.
The best bet is to vote for the best candidate for the job regardless of party, or lack of party, that is the only way the best candidate wins, vote for them.
Human race comes first, then family, friends, then America, there is no place for party. Certainly not party before Country.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)marions ghost
(19,841 posts)in the past that is "liberal"?
I can't think of any past evidence or a reason of any kind --why Liberals should go with her. (I am definitely not interested in "first woman president" stuff).
If you can think of even one reason, please post it.
Hekate
(90,644 posts)mark67
(196 posts)Center-right, center-left, centrist, hard left, hard right. What difference does it make? The stakes are too high this election cycle for the Democratic Party to make these types of distinctions.
If Sanders gets the nomination I will vote for Sanders. If Clinton gets the nomination I will vote for Clinton.
Watching the Kerry-Dean-Gore campaigns go down in flames (and the Nader campaign contribute to putting W. in the White House...yeah the Green Party...those guys were politically pure) have pushed me into the Clinton arena.
These discussions are interesting but the poster above who put Clinton in the same category as W.? (scratching head)
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)We MUST make the distinction.
We have two conservative parties in the US now.
I want real democracy.
pengu
(462 posts)NOT making the distinction has lead us to this point. NOT making the distinction has let the party drift ever rightward. NOT making the distinction means lefties will never, ever make progress.
It is the PERFECT time to make the distinction.
stonecutter357
(12,695 posts)i don't need a label.
Herman4747
(1,825 posts)Hekate
(90,644 posts)SylviaD
(721 posts)Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)I watched last night as Sanders was asked how he will get his far flung proposals through Congress. His response was to go on a tirade about how Congress represents the establishment and he's anti-Establishment. He's a radical Leftist.
Red Knight
(704 posts)then the party is over.
Fortunately there are enough true Democrats left who will continue to fight for the soul of the party.
You know--from the radical right.
SylviaD
(721 posts)He has inspired people, but he isn't the one to take on the likes of Donald Trump or Ted Cruz.
The Far Left
(59 posts)As this Primary has progressed, I have learned that Hillary Clinton will never be like FDR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights
'The Second Bill of Rights is a list of rights that was proposed by U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt during his State of the Union Address on January 11, 1944.[1] In his address Roosevelt suggested that the nation had come to recognize, and should now implement, a second "bill of rights". Roosevelt's argument was that the "political rights" guaranteed by the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights had "proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness." Roosevelt's remedy was to declare an "economic bill of rights" which would guarantee eight specific rights:'
Employment (right to work)
Food, clothing and leisure, via enough income to support them
Farmers' rights to a fair income
Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies
Housing
Medical care
Social security
Education
'Roosevelt stated that having these rights would guarantee American security, and that the United States' place in the world depended upon how far these and similar rights had been carried into practice.'
INdemo
(6,994 posts)than nominate Hillary..Hillary may have thousands of supporters in the (Corporate Media for now)DU.The Southern States,and States the Corporations have bought for her but DWS will have no influence or dirty tricks to play in the National Election.
Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)BlueMTexpat
(15,366 posts)question! I. Am. A. Democrat. Hillary. Is. My. Candidate.
You don't know me or my life experience. If you did, you would feel ashamed of yourself for asking such a thing. That is, if you are capable of felling shame.
I am sure that you already have your own idea of the political purity test that I should meet. As a wild outside guess, it would entail my immediately feeling the Bern.
We have two excellent candidates. Many good people support each candidate for various reasons. A "label" - as perceived by someone who supports one candidate or the other - is not the reason.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)One has sold out, hijacked by big money interests --and the other has been ridiculed and marginalized for exposing the truth. One is a corporatist, one is a populist. One will work for business interests, one will work for the good of the whole.
Pick one.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Cobalt Violet
(9,905 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Bernie Sanders was not a Democrat for almost all of his political life. He has stood outside of the party for decades. He has said: "The fact that I am not a Democrat gives me the freedom to speak out on the floor of the House" and more succinctly "I am not a Democrat and have no intention of become one."
So the real question then is do you, as Bernie supporters, view yourselves as Democrats?
Thanks
The Far Left
(59 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)He was a leader in the Democratic party for decades.
The Far Left
(59 posts)Is it possible for the Democratic policy positions to shift so far to the right that they no longer represent the original Democratic Party?
What if the current DNC leadership acts like moderate corporate Republicans? What then would define a real Democrat?
Are you best defined by your logo, or by the policies you promote?
Bernie is the real deal. He is not a corporate surrogate. Bernie is an FDR Democrat. He's the type of Democrat that made America the greatest nation on Earth.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I don't think any of us would want to go back to the original Democratic party, do you?
Let me ask you a question: when did this shift to the right begin? At what point was the Democratic Party not the way you categorize it now? What decade are you talking about as being the last time the Democratic Party was what you would have it be?
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)in the last decades--how do you expect anybody who is NOT conservative to support them any more?
After 30 years of supporting the Democratic party, I am no longer happy to do so unless there is change in the party. Enough.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)He had been an Independent for over three decades until recently.
This was presumably during the time when you supported the Democratic party.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)He has always been a Liberal (Social Democrat) or whatever label you wish to call the Democratic wing of the Democratic party. I stand for what he stands for.
I want real democracy in America. Not corporatocracy.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)He has said that on more than one occasion. Here's the most recent:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/upshot/class-or-ideology-my-conversation-with-bernie-sanders.html?_r=0
The OP is about labels - my question was really meant in response to the question framed in the OP which I found to be ridiculous.
Personally, I think Bernie and Hillary are both great.
Svafa
(594 posts)I never use the term "liberal" to describe myself (opting for "progressive" instead), because the word liberal can be used to describe anyone left of center politically, but it also carries the baggage of economic liberalism (e.g., neoliberalism), which is the polar opposite of what many progressives (who may call themselves liberal without knowing about the murkiness of the term) stand for.
If we're speaking about economic liberalism, I am proud to support a candidate who does not identify as liberal.
Logical
(22,457 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Could you give an estimate?
pengu
(462 posts)The center right has nearly the entire party structure at this point.
casperthegm
(643 posts)I am a registered democrat and my ideals more closely align with them. It's funny how some people are quick to point out that Sanders was registered as an independent (like that's a bad thing) while not mentioning that HRC was actually a republican at one point, then a moderate democrat, then supposedly progressive. In the end, I could care less about party affiliation. What matters is the person. Who they are, what they've done, and what they stand for. I'm not going to be a sheep and just "support the party." If that puts me at odds with an increasing right of center democratic party, then so be it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I was really just posing this question as a parody of the question in the OP - which I find to be silly.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Martin Eden
(12,863 posts)I disagree with that conclusion. While I concur it's evident both parties have shifted to the right, I don't think it's a matter of the shifting of the Democratic Party pushing the R's further right.
The D party has shifted further to the right because it's increasingly beholden to corporate money, and the DNC takes progressive voters for granted because in a two-party system what other viable choice do we have? Also, to some degree, the rightward shift of the R party is dragging the D along with it in an effort to capture the center.
The R party has shifted to the right because they've crafted a rightwing ideology to manipulate and hold onto their voting base. Decades of Faux news and talk radio have relentlessly pounded home an ideology tying Christian identity politics to trickle down economics and jingoistic patriotism. They've convinced people their religion is under assault and their country is being taken over by muslims, immigrants, sexual deviants, socialists, and libruls.
All of this has shifted the center rightward. The Democratic Party leadership and prominent politicians like Hillary Clinton are part of that shift, and they've carried a big chunk of Democratic voters along for the ride. I think most of them aren't any more aware of this shift than the proverbial frog in a slowly warming (and eventually boiling) pot of water.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Who was the last Democratic presidential candidate who was left-wing?
Martin Eden
(12,863 posts)FDR set the standard for what you refer to as the "Left Wing" Democratic Party. LBJ carried that forward, and George McGovern was the last "Left wing" candidate to win the party's nomination.
There are no absolutes and most things are a matter of degree. Every candidate is a bit of a mixed bag, and even establishment corporate Democrats like Hillary Clinton embrace some "Left wing" policies. But the trend has definitely been rightward. Bill Clinton with his Third Way triangulation was a big part of that shift. Hillary has had to craft her rhetoric to appeal to the Left in this primary battle, but she remains very much an establishment neoliberal Democrat tied to Wall Street.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That's a really long time.
My personal view is that Hillary and Bernie are actually pretty similar on most issues especially in relation to the positions of the Republicans.
Martin Eden
(12,863 posts)Not sure what you mean by that.
As I said, there are no absolutes; everything is relative. The D party has been shifting rightward since Reagan. I don't think that constitutes "right wing" relative to the "center" as defined in 1980, but it's steadily shifted to the right of FDR/LBJ/McGovern. The economic game has been rigged in favor of the wealthiest, and that isn't solely the product of Republicans ramming through trade agreements and tax codes. D's are complicit. Big Money has a big influence with the legalized bribery in our electoral system. They're too smart to be caught in quid pro quo, but anyone who thinks nothing is expected in return for the large sums they give to political campaigns (or for paid speeches) is astoundingly naïve.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)So you think the Democratic party under President Obama is further to the right than the Democratic party was under President Clinton?
Martin Eden
(12,863 posts)... and Hillary is definitely to the right of Obama. I think the party overall has drifted to the right in the complicity I pointed out in my last post. In the 2014 midterms many Dem candidates tried their best to distance themselves from Obama, and were soundly defeated at the polls. Voters on the Left stayed away in droves, and Republican-lite candidates won't steal many votes from the real thing.
DWS chairing the DNC does not indicate any change in that direction.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Based on the recent Congressional election results?
Martin Eden
(12,863 posts)The Democratic National Committee and those they work to nominate have, overall, shifted to the right over the last 35+ years.
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)I am a progressive liberal democrat thats been involved in politics for over 45 years and expect to remain so...and I support Hillary because she is a leader and has faced the devil time and time again.....no conscientious objector or pacifist in her nature...I see her as the candidate BEST to WIN in the general election by overwhelming margins in spite of sanders supporters constant threats of not supporting her....if they hate america that much to let conservatives have the run of it....I feel sorry for them
has nothing to do with center-right...center-left...left....or whatever ....if you want conservatives to screw our world up more....you can.....I will not
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Clinton1 (who also wanted to privatize it)
Obama (with Chained CPI)
**************
But republicans stopped them. How backasswards is THAT?
Just one example.
We are against Hillary because she IS conservative. But like Clinton1 & Obama, she is running as a progressive.
This has to stop.
Demsrule86
(68,549 posts)I am a liberal...as liberal as Bernie Sanders. I also see the Supreme Court is being the most important thing because unless we get back the Congress nothing else can be accomplished. I think we have a good shot at the Senate...really great young liberal running here in Ohio...but I would vote for Strickland should he win the primary. Why? he may be blue dogish but he is a Democrat and would shift the Senate to the Democrats. These are the things we need to think of...I do not believe Bernie can win. There is a reason one of the Koch brothers wrote an oped praising Bernie and that the right has attacked Hillary non-stop...she can win, and we need her to...she is probably less liberal than I am...so was pres. Obama but I would take him over McCain or Romney any day. Should the GOP get in ...you can kiss social security goodbye as well as medicare...and a woman's right to choose and count on war as well as dirty drinking water. All you Bernie folks attacking Hillary are only helping the Republicans.
yardwork
(61,588 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Idealism and pragmatism are not mutually exclusive and a reasonable adult doesn't let one be the enemy of the other.
Loki
(3,825 posts)but I do know that I'm not a right wing, racist bigot. How's that for an answer? I'm a Democrat and that encompasses quite a bit of territory.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)except that I strongly oppose the death penalty and support decriminalization of drugs. And on Citizens United I stand with the ACLU. Does that make me "center right"?
LonePirate
(13,417 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)I'm a Hillary supporter, and I'll put my liberal creds up against ANYONE here, ANY TIME.
What a self-righteous, disingenuous crock.
So tired of this "holier than thou" nonsense.
Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #59)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)Progressives. It's a mouthful to say, so they shorten it to Progressive. If they were right of center, they would proudly claim they are Third Wayers: Republicans who got the social issues right.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)And I don't consider Clinton to be a centrist by any means. I guess every Dem politician is a centrist if you're comparing it to socialism. But that's the wrong metric. Clinton's actual record is quite liberal. More liberal than Obama and Bill, in fact.
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)That what is right wing in most of the world is "center-left" here.
boythayer
(14 posts)first and foremost, and if Hillary were more progressive than the candidate she was running against, they would be debating from that POV
everything I have read and heard is that it seems to be more about Hillary than any ideology or movement they back.
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)There are several of us who were Obama supporters in 2008 - it obviously wasn't about Hillary then.
I find it ironic that any Bernie supporter would even say this, given the way many here have given godlike status to Bernie.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)My Republican relatives think I'm a communist.
Some here think I'm a little to the right of Gen Franco.
I support civil rights and affirmative action. I oppose "reparations" and support programs to remediate impoverished black communities.
I support aggressive progressive taxation. I support massive investment in infrastructure and public support of science (like increasing NASA's budget 10-fold.
I support a transformative education system with high-quality trade education.
I support universal health coverage (with very low out-of-pocket)
I support massive investments in green energy and aggressive carbon taxes.
I favor a strong national defense (though with less money in it than now), and less foreign intervention (though I do support assisting allies, when appropriate)
I support public funding of the arts.
I'm not much worried about labels, but I certainly don't see any Republicans that share my positions.
hack89
(39,171 posts)pro-choice, marriage and gender equality for example. But I am pro-military (being a retired Navy vet) and pro-2A. So you tell me what that means.
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)Why do Bernie supporters assume that Hillary supporters are uninformed/suffering from Stockholm Syndrome/closet conservatives, whatever?
Bernie supporters are not all alike. He draws from Green Party types to former Rand Paul fans.
Hillary supporters are not alike either. Her coalition is pretty broad. In fact, broader than Sanders since she gets more ethnic/racial minority support.
As for me, I'm pretty progressive.
I'm pro-choice.
Anti-gun and pro-gun control.
Pro gay rights and marriage equality.
Separation of church and state.
Welcoming of minority religions.
Vehemently anti-racism
Strongly feminist.
I don't like war, and find Hillary too hawkish for my taste, and Bernie too uninformed on foreign affairs.
I believe that income inequality is a big issue. I don't believe Bernie will be able to do much about it, since I think he is not nuanced enough in his perspectives. His vote against TARP, for example, while ideologically pure, suggests a level of irresponsibility for the real-life consequences of an economy in free fall, that is almost on par with Ted Cruz's irresponsible shutdown of government (I'm not saying he's otherwise as bad as Cruz). I would like to see single payer healthcare, but I think it is too late in history - it should have been started after WWII. Given the complexities of healthcare these days, the fact that the healthcare industry is a huge employer, and the political realities of this nation, I believe that Hillary's incremental approach to achieving universal healthcare is more realistic. Many other countries achieve universal healthcare through systems similar to the ACA, so it's doable, and probably more realistic.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Some have trashed unions. I find there are all kinds of conservative views among a broad spectrum of both candidates' supporters. Not everyone supports someone because all of their views line up with a candidate.
QC
(26,371 posts)You are far, far too kind.
Nedsdag
(2,437 posts)Hekate
(90,644 posts)ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)So I'd say they're right wingers.