On a ghetto... and how some folks are even now attempting to deny

[nadinbrzezinski]

that experience to an old Jew. (SO what is new. Capehart, I wonder if he will go there?)

Ok, first off, I am not talking for every Jewish person on this board. I am not going to make that claim or that mistake. I am talking from my own experience and history.

Now... the word ghetto... it's origins are not in Baltimore but they are in the Jewish experience. This word is European in origin and the word is far more tied to the Jewish experience than other communities, The fact that it has evolved the way it has it is part of the problem. In fact, it should trouble you...that this word is now also used to describe urban cores in the US, that are majorly minority.

The origin of the word is actually renaissance Venice when the first WALLED Jewish Ghetto was put in place, This is a fact jack. And European governments embraced this. Jews where quickly put in places where they could not come out at night, at times, they would not mix, There was even Jewish dress. This is well before the holocaust. The holocaust was just the horrific end result of that.

Jews who left Europe for the Americas, whether it is New York or Mexico City, quickly concentrated in certain neighborhoods. These communities quickly saw the building of Kehilot, the word means community, that recreated European institutions very quickly. The first was a temple, quickly followed by a school, and hospitals. What? You think only PoC were denied medical care in the United States? Believe or not, there are no Jewish hospitals in Mexico... now that might to do a few other things... though fun fact, we have the largest print house of antisemitic material in latin america.

The word Ghetto was also used to describe the place. Hell, it is still used... shh, big secret but Mexico City has a Jewish Ghetto. I know, quaint, how language evolved and transfers.

Bernie Sanders grew up as well in what functionally is closer to a modern American ghetto by the way. He grew up poor in a community with less opportunities than white christian communities. I am willing to bet a dime on the dollar that as a kid in school Bernard Sanders also got taunted for being Jewish. Just a guess here. ..I posted two definitions of a ghetto bellow.

So when he uses the term Ghetto, I know it sounds crazy, but there is this chance he is actually talking of growing up in poverty as well. You see, there is this myth circulating that all Jews are rich... and have always been rich. So think about that one.

For the record, the semantic shift, that is the term, that you can see in Wikipedia, includes Jews...

A ghetto is a part of a city in which members of a minority group live, especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure.[1] The term was originally used in Venice to describe the part of the city to which Jews were restricted and segregated.

This full definition from Merriam Websters is more accurate

Full Definition of ghetto
plural ghettos also ghettoes
1
: a quarter of a city in which Jews were formerly required to live
2
: a quarter of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure
3
a : an isolated group <a geriatric ghetto>
b : a situation that resembles a ghetto especially in conferring inferior status or limiting opportunity <the pink-collar ghetto>

As a society I would hope people would be willing to listen to other's experience. Quickly tough I am losing any hope we will and we will continue to atomize.

Oh and since I am traveling to Mexico City on Wednesday to see my mother, yup, I am going to a ghetto... though not one that is formally or legally defined, It is more like tradition. It is far more an echo of history than anything else.

And yes, I know some of you will go SPIN... well whatever kids, whatever makes you laugh.

But I see this as an attempt to deny identity. And I would not ask an old jew to clarify his statement, since the more I think about what he said, it is part of his experience and he did grow in one. Was it South East San Diego? No, but it was one. So deal with it.

And this is part of the nasty undercurrent we are seeing these days.

[PatrickforO]

1. Very educational. Unfortunately, I'm sure your history lesson will fall on deaf ears,

because it is neither part of the establishment nor the Clinton campaign narrative. I'm thinking they'd generally rather throw mud.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. I realize that

but now they are not just denying our experience to posters but also the candidate, and I mean a large part of who he is.

He did not participate in civil rights, and he did not grow up in a Jewish ghetto...

There is a term I am looking for here, it starts with an A.

[PatrickforO]

3. Your 'A' is much more genteel. I call it

ratf---ing, and fight it line by line when I can...

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Anti-Semitism is far from genteel

[PatrickforO]

16. True, I stand correct. I thought the A stood for asshole.

But no, with what Trump is doing with his followers, every person who had family victimized in Hitler's holocaust and everyone who is even vaguely familiar with 20th century history should be scared shitless. I'll tell you, Nadine, we're gonna have to hide people in our basements and attics before all is said and done if Trump makes it into office. He's talking about 'registration' and next they will be talking about 'concentration.' After that will come the 'final solution' and I'm gonna die before I see that shit happen again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. That is my fear as well

but what I am seeing on BOTH SIDES, it will get ugly either way, just different ugly.

[jwirr]

104. With a child like my Terri who is severely disabled and a

family full of poc I am scared to death. I also will fight against this hate movement.

Nadine, thank you for the history.

Hopefully we can stop this both here and in EU before it gets anymore out of hand.

I have one of those t-shirts that says "I have been following a old Jewish socialist most of my life and now I get to vote for one." However, I am afraid to wear it because someone on DU said they were anti-semetic? Do you think they are?

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. It is making a come back

you will get a PM

[firebrand80]

4. Ghettosplaining nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Expected

so try to tell me where I am wrong here.

[firebrand80]

10. I have nothing constructive to add

In fact, I didn't even read your post

[NWCorona]

15. So just stirring the pot and wasting other people's time then huh?

[firebrand80]

20. Just poking fun at another silly

DU pearl-clutching, couch-fainting, non-controversy

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. So history, and historically accurate information is pearl clutching?

Now we have crossed into the twilight zone.

[firebrand80]

30. No, the "pearl-clutching" is happening on the other side nt

[NWCorona]

25. If race baiting to alter the election is just something to poke fun at

It says a lot.

[VulgarPoet]

161. ...I think I just felt something rupture from pure, unadulterated rage

and then go silent.

[Ken Burch]

93. Just like every other slur about Bernie and his anti-racist commitment. n/t.

[PatrickforO]

17. Why would you not read her post?

It IS historically accurate.

[firebrand80]

22. Because this is all a non-issue

Other than it being entertaining.

Then again, I have a strange sense of humor

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Actually this is an issue

a very important issue... it is called manufacturing consent.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. excpected

once again, happy to know you like to continue to live in ignorance. This is a perfect example of shit stirring the pot.

[Ken Burch]

90. "I have nothing constructive to add".

And yet, you post.

[islandmkl]

137. you only need to say your line once...you realize that anything you have posted after that...

makes you either confused within yourself about your motives here...

or you 'mis-spoke' and meant to say you were going to add a lot of bullshit on down the thread...

I'm thinking that's the issue...because there would be no reason for you to lie about your intentions..not saying you did...just saying you seem confused...

[bravenak]

100. .

[ljm2002]

153. Now that was some serious discourse...

...

Why even bother to respond to a thoughtful post if that's all you can come up with?

Your post contributed nothing, zero, nada to the discussion. Just a childish schoolyard taunt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. Well it is also vile

since he is also mocking a Jew for whom ghettos have historic significance, I an not talking about Sanders, He is doing the same exact shit they complain about. It is... what is the word I am looking for? Could be... starts with an A and it is also vile.

[dogman]

6. Look at the context in War's "The World Is A Ghetto".

"Don't you know that it's true? That for me, and for you, the world is a ghetto". Ghetto is a description of systemic prejudice and oppression. Hard to believe the concept is foreign to Michiganders.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. It is foreign to partisans

[ieoeja]

58. I am astounded by the vast number of DUers who think Ghetto is synonymous with poor neighborhood.

I thought DUers were generally smarter than that.

[VulgarPoet]

162. Learn something new, every single day. nt

[PeaceNikki]

8. “What I meant to say, is when you talk about ghettos, traditionally what you’re talking about is...

African-American communities.” ~Bernie Sanders 3/7/2016

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/bernie-sanders-ghetto-gaffe-highlights-campaigns-struggle-race

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Parse that

traditionally what you’re talking about is...African-American communities.” ~Bernie Sanders 3/7/2016

That is not what he was talking about, That is what the media, and people like you think about, Why he said YOU are talking about,

And it is sad,

So how much more are you going to deny from his life experience? I just told you what is going on here, And the word ghetto belong to the Jewish experience as well.

[PeaceNikki]

13. Dude. That's *him* trying to clarify what *HE* meant.

His words, not mine.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I am not a dude

and he is speaking about what people like you and the media think about, The fact that people need an education is not MY FRACKING FAULT. Next I expect you to tell me I am not going to a Jewish Ghetto the day after tomorrow.

So what else are you folks going to attempt to take away from his life experience? This is already far worst than 2008. I expect though, that the digging will continue.

You are telling a Jew who grew up in a Jewish Ghetto that he did not. He told the media that they think ONLY OF BLACKS. READ THAT STATEMENT AGAIN. As a Jew I find this extremely offensive.

[PeaceNikki]

26. Wow. That's such a twist of his own words.

His words.

http://mic.com/articles/137268/bernie-sanders-tries-to-explain-his-ghetto-comment-and-made-things-even-worse#.Xz2E015k3

But when NBC News asked Sanders to elaborate on his comments, he dug himself into an even deeper hole. "What I meant to say, is when you talk about ghettos, traditionally what you're talking about is African-American communities." Which, again, is wrong. Not all of black America is poor, and racism works across the spectrum of class.

I am not speaking to his experiences, only his words.

I am not making this about you, only his words.

His words.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Yes, read that again, that is what the media does

the media also does shit like show African Americans in prison garb, and whites in their Sunday beset,

We was throwing in their faces their fracking implied racism. Ii am not twisting a world. I suppose after reading so much crap on this and making the EDITORIAL decision that we will NOT SHOW any minority in County Blues or cuffs, allows me to understand what he is throwing back at them.

But if you want to continue to misrepresent what he said, by all means I am going to stop you. I just find it incredibly offensive.

[PeaceNikki]

36. Misrepresent? It's his own words. If they offend you, take it up with him.

Nothing he said has jack shit to do with his Jewish heritage.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Again, what he said yesterday

has ALL TO DO WITH HIS HERITAGE ALL THE WAY TO THE FUCKING HOLOCAUST

What he said today, was throwing implied racism in the face of the ignorance and complaint press corp. DEAL WITH IT.

[zappaman]

67. It's like talking to a brick wall, ain't it?

[bravenak]

102. Exactly.

[Mufaddal]

12. Max Abrahms, with whom I don't often agree, had best responses on this last night

Bernie Sanders, whose father's family in Poland was killed in the Holocaust, is getting blasted for his use of "ghetto." Give him a break.
https://twitter.com/MaxAbrahms/status/706701816654745601

Chutzpah: Claiming someone doesn't know "ghettos" aren't necessarily black when his own white family lived in 1 before gassed in Holocaust.
https://twitter.com/MaxAbrahms/status/706764896575348737

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. exactly

a huge part of my family also died in the holocaust, so I find this to be gobsmacking

[NWCorona]

19. If people can't understand that then I don't know what else to say

[nc4bo]

28. Wrong phrase he's using. We call 'em the 'hood now.

And they are real and in a country as rich as we are in the United States, shouldn't even exist at all.

Silly smear mongerers and race baiters need to start talking about that shit instead of this bullshit they're always deflecting to.

Sorry Nadin, I had to get that out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Not an issue wiht me

I find it at this point to be incredibly offensive.

And you are correct, the kids do call it hood, but that has not crossed to news rooms yet. I have been having a debate about doing that myself. Using the term the kids use.

[notadmblnd]

47. thank you fore getting it out.

[BainsBane]

29. The one who seems to be denying it is Sanders himself

On Monday, Sanders attempted to clarify his debate statement, telling a gaggle of reporters in Detroit: “What I meant to say, is when you talk about ghettos, traditionally what you’re talking about is African-American communities.”

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/bernie-sanders-ghetto-gaffe-highlights-campaigns-struggle-race

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. I am not going to repeat the whole thing I told you Peace Niki suffice

it to say you are misrepresenting what he said, both last night and now, And I find it incredibly offensive.

[BainsBane]

40. My user name is plainly displayed next to my post

and it is not PeaceNikki. Sanders statement is what it is. I just posted it above.

I have no idea what you are talking about, or if anyone here actually said what you claim. Given that you can't even bother to look at a user name before writing a comment claiming you know what someone previously said, I don't have great confidence in the accuracy of your account.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. You misrepresenting what he said I find

extremely offensive. Deal with it, He grew up in a JEWISH GHETTO.

[Dont call me Shirley]

87. Bernie said..."what YOU'RE talking about". YOU'RE, meaning the gaggle of reporters, not himself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. I tried to explain that

trust me

[Dont call me Shirley]

98. You explained it very clearly, in a way most people can understand...

But like my kids with math, I had to explain it in many differet ways before they got it.

[noiretextatique]

152. And...isn't that true?

It doesn't mean that all black communities are ghettos, or that all black people live in ghettos. However, the common term for a poor black community has been ghetto for quite some time now. It certainly was called that when I grew up on Compton.

[randome]

32. No one's denying a thing. How about most people didn't like the way he said it.

There. Done.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. That is why becuase most people talling about this

have no clue about Jewish Ghettos, there I fixed it for you. And this is willful ignorance, there I fixed it further for you.

[PeaceNikki]

37. Nothing he said has jack shit to do with his Jewish heritage.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. So he did not grow up in a Jewish Ghetto

Again, I find your words not just offensive, but extremely offensive. You are denying his heritage... I expect you to continue to offend and not even get or try to understand why this is incredibly offensive.

[PeaceNikki]

39. I am not denying his heritage. I am stating that nothing he said last night or today had anything to

do with his heritage.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. What he said today was throwing implied racism in the face of the press

deal with it.

The fact that press cannot think of ghettos beyond urban cores and African Americans is the issue that you should get out of it, but expected, you have not.

And it is OFFENSIVE beyond belief.

What he said yesterday has everything to do with his heritage... including the fucking holocaust.

[PeaceNikki]

44. That's just so weird.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. I feel sorry

at this point, I will be kind and not answer any more of your barbs, because that is what they are, We are speaking different languages, obviously and it is not english.

[PeaceNikki]

48. Yeah, I am just not seeing the words that aren't there like you seem to be.

[zappaman]

68. "We are speaking different languages"

On this we agree.
Thanks for the linguistics lesson!

[noiretextatique]

149. No, he was talking about black people

Who actually do live in ghettos across this country. I don't know why some people seem to find that reality offensive. Of course, there are those who claim he thinks ALL black people live in ghettos, but he'd have to be stupid to believe that, and I don't think he is that stupid. He knows the Obamas and other black people who are not poor, so I don't think he believes all black people are poor either. I appreciate him talking about communities where entreched poverty has been a persistent problem...for decades.

[alcibiades_mystery]

46. We have historical data on where Bernie Sanders grew up, you know?

Bernie Sanders grew up in what was at the time a working class/middle class community in Midwood, Brooklyn. It had a large Jewish population, as one can easily confirm by reviewing the census data from 1940 (the year before Bernie was born), which is the latest census data to have full names by enumeration district (that data being restricted for 72 years otherwise, so the 1950 information is not available).

The census numbers you'd be looking for are in New York State, Kings County, with enumeration numbers roughly in the 24-305, 24-374, 24-375, 24-377, 24-399a and 24-399b areas, etc.

Most residents of the area were native born. Of those who weren't, there are moderate numbers from Russia, Poland, Austria, Ireland (labeled Eire in the census), and Italy. As is common in New York even to this day, demographics could shift quickly from ED to ED. ED 399b, for example, has a far higher number of typically Jewish surnames than does ED375, which is directly to the north (ED375 has many, but also a good number of Italian and Irish). This was typical of most of Midwood up until the 70's and 80's, when big population shifts happened. This is all easily conducted historical research on the area, with freely available information.

Sanders grew up at 1525 E 26th street, on a block with apartment buildings and private houses; his building data can be found in ED24-305. It is, no question, a building with a majority ethnic Jewish population, judging from names (Ralph Cohen, Leo Fishbein, etc.). Many households have at least one adult born outside the US, with a sizeable number from Russia. Almost all the children are born in New York, indicating that these aren't recent immigrants. The people in the building have a range of professions, but all households report at least one adult working, and the vast majority worked full time. Some are professionals (a doctor, a lawyer), many are in sales, some are civil servants (a clerk for the Department of Labor), and some are maids. It is a mix, just as you would expect in a working class-middle class area of Brooklyn at the time.

Here, have fun doing actual historical work: http://1940census.archives.gov/

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Your post has two critical points to the point I made.

Large Jewish community y. Read the definition, and trust me, the Mexico City Jewish community is NOT poor. it is mostly middle class, though there is some poverty.

He also grew up in a flat with three rooms that was rent control and he self identifies as haivng grown up lower middle class to poor. So... there is that.

The problem is that folks hear the word ghetto and immediately think minority and poverty, For the record, Jews are a minority.

[alcibiades_mystery]

60. Well

While the building he lived in was mostly ethnic-Jewish according to census data, the neighborhood was mixed ethnic at the time. That's a fact about Brooklyn, and Midwood in particular, drawn from actual historical documents. Moreover, every household in the building reported full-time work (in 1940!).

Rents were controlled in buildings like the one Sanders grew up in through federal (wartime and post-war) statutes, and then state regulations for the whole time he was a minor. That one lived in a rent-controlled apartment building in NYC in the 1950's signifies basically zero: all NYC apartments in buildings were rent controlled through the late 1950's.

I have been commenting throughout these discussions on the Midwood section of Brooklyn, which was not a "ghetto" under any definition (ethnic density and/or poverty, or otherwise).

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Well I will take the definition

Used by Jews and historians of the period. I am sorry. But I will not deny that personal history either. By the way, under the definition you are using, I am not traveling to one on Wendesday. Under the definition the community uses, read the OP, I am.

It is exactly within that tradition. Now if you insist on using sociological definitions developed post civil rights movement. Well then.

[alcibiades_mystery]

119. Are we still talking about Midwood

in the 1940's and 50's? I can't tell.

If your definition of "ghetto" is any geographical area with a predominant ethnic-minority population, fair enough. Most neighborhoods in New York City then were (and perhaps remain) "ghettos." The term gets fairly thin. I suppose your definition also has to do with a community feeling. OK.

Nevertheless, Midwood was a mixed ethnic neighborhood in the 40's and 50's, and the building that Sanders lived in was largely middle class for the time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. Yes we are

and under the definition used by the community it was one

[alcibiades_mystery]

128. By what community?

The Jewish community in Midwood, Brooklyn?

Do you have any citation for anybody referring to Midwood as a ghetto at the time? Or do you just mean in general?

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. There is boat loads of research into this

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/04/27/306829915/segregated-from-its-history-how-ghetto-lost-its-meaning

Please pay close attention to the black and white photo from the Chicago Ghetto,

Ghettos had largely disappeared in Europe by the middle of the 19th century when the word crossed the Atlantic. Jewish authors borrowed the word to refer to the New World’s crowded Jewish neighborhoods. It made appearances in novels such as Israel Zangwill’s 1892 Children of the Ghetto and Abraham Cahan’s 1896 Yekl: A Tale of the New York Ghetto. A book, The Ghetto, about the Jews of Chicago’s West Side by sociologist Louis Wirth was published in 1928.

http://www.momentmag.com/jewish-word-ghetto/

I know you are invested in this, but as a child of a holocaust survivor, and a student of history so am I. The word has undergone a semantic shift in the US where it now means urban cores, and poverty and minorities, (That last part has not changed) He did not mispeak. And at this point I find this not just gobsmacking, but terrifying.

He did throw into the media's face their implied racism, becuase when the press uses the word these days they mean Baltimore, or south east san diego, or the Lower East Side of Chicago. And you know what, THAT IF FUCKING RACIST as well. There I said, it.

Have a great day. I got an article to finish writing on school diversity.

[alcibiades_mystery]

141. Alright

I'm sensitive to the idea that "the ghetto" functioned (functions?) as a cultural signifier in Jewish-ethnic communities. When Wirth refers to the Chicago ghetto on the west side, he means both this demarcated geographical/social location and a set of cultural practices that create continuity with traditions and Jewish roots, identity practices and experiences. Similarly, for Wirth, the "New York ghetto" means not just such-and-such a place (though it surely means that), but also the cultural and community ties of the Jewish communities of New York. By Wirth's definition, which you're deploying, then, Midwood, whatever its other features, is part of the New York Ghetto by virtue of its large Jewish-ethnic population - even if other features traditionally associated with Jewish-ethnic ghettoes - their relative homogeneity and spatial demarcation - don't really hold.

Fair enough. I'll buy that.

Then, why any of this is relevant to Sanders statement, as I understand you (please feel free to correct me): when Sanders says "White people don't know what it's like to be living in the ghetto" - he's actually making a comment about his own experience, as well. That is, he's referring to his own experience of living in the New York Jewish ghetto (pre-semantic shift). So, it may be a way of saying, the dominant majority group has a difficult time understanding the social dynamics of minority communities (of whatever stripe). But he's also saying, "I, Bernie Sanders, better understand minority communities, because I essentially grew up in one, and recognize the social dynamics and importance of cultural ties that develop in such cultural/geographic spaces."

Indeed, he may be said to be building a bridge with the word: it was chosen very precisely because it is a point of contact between (his own) Jewish experience (pre-semantic shift) and African American experience (post-semantic shift).

Is that right?

(By the way, I don't know why you think I'm invested in this. I find the arguments fascinating. That's all. I certainly hope I'm not the one being accused of Antisemitism throughout this thread.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

142. He is referring to his own experience

but he was also quoting a BLM activists. I have not even gone into that. This is why a lot of Jews have been part of civil rights movements like forever. And I am not accusing you of antisemitism. There are a few people that the word has crossed my mind though, You are not one of them.

I am also looking at this as a member of the Jewish diaspora. We grow up with these terms. So for me it is not a strange thing to hear a jewish man of my father;s generation in the US talk that way. My nephews, a lot of bad stuff will have to happen for them to talk that way. This is speech that is slowly disappearing, and that is a different kettle of fish, and courtesy of Trump they might be reminded.

My niece in Mexico City... they talk that way still in Mexico City. There are different dynamics at play though.

[BernieforPres2016]

49. This is a bullshit Clintonista dirty trick

designed to take the conversation away from the fact that Bernie crushed her in the debate last night.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. I know,

and it is beyond a dirty trick, We have crossed into dog whistle politics, Actually we crossed it a while ago, but this is beyond obvious,.

[RufusTFirefly]

52. Yup. That's how they roll. It's pretty consistent.

And yet each time you think they couldn't possibly stoop any lower, they do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. I expect them to go though the planetary core

and then some at this point.

[noiretextatique]

150. It is way overblown, imho

But then again, I don't believe he has negative intentions, like some.

[elleng]

54. Thanks.

and he gesticulates, imagine that!

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. I know, I know

my dad did that a lot for some odd reason... Sander's and my dad's family come from a similar area of Eastern Europe

[elleng]

59. I love that!

Wish my Dad had done so, but he didn't, was born in NYC, and I haven't heard of such gesticulating by our family members, but had some singers and dancers among good friends. I also suspect that 'we' came from a similar area as Sanders' family.

A gift for you, and your mother, one of the songs my Dad and his friends sang and danced to:

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Oy my dad one of his favorites

[elleng]

85. Check this out!

'You might say its a story for Americas most prominent arab populated city rallying around a jewish guy

Thousands turnout in #Dearborn for @BernieSanders rally ahead of vote tomorrow #FeelTheBern #DemocraticPrimary

https://twitter.com/gregjeske/status/706917659959541762

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Cool

[DemocraticWing]

55. I don't think people quite grasp what it means to be a Jewish person of Bernie's age

Or for that matter, how that might have shaped his experiences differently than somebody who was not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Fully agreed

[elleng]

61. Quite right.

[MisterP]

63. there was even an antisemitic movement in 20s Mexico, often attacking photo studios

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_shirts

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Yup

And please do not get me started on the PAN

[AzDar]

66. K & R

[aidbo]

69. It's also used as an adjective in these modern times.

To mean jury-rigged, or of poor or shoddy quality.

[senz]

70. I can't think of ghetto without Warsaw Ghetto coming to mind.

Ghetto seems like a first step toward something frightening.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. That is because there are two meanings pushed by our MSM

and that is one of them.

It is somewhat the same kind of linguistic shift we have seen with a few other terms. But it is also part of the American Jewish experience. (And Mexican as well)... when I hear a 70 something talk of a ghetto my mind goes to two things, his growing up, and yes, his family experience. That is well before I think of the post civil right era use of the term.

[retrowire]

71. The problem is, the evolution of language.

No doubt the word Ghetto originated there. The problem is that most people don't use that word in correlation with it's dictionary definition anymore.

Ghetto is not only a noun anymore, hell it's an adjective! Ex: "That car is so ghetto."

So what sucks is that we don't get to decide how people interpret it. Everyone knows I'm a hard core Bernie supporter and have been from the start. But when I heard the comment I felt a little tinge in my heart. I grew up calling White Demographic Trailer Parks, ghetto's. Their own residence refers to them as such.

Sure I may not be using the word properly, but... Just about everyone in NC that I know of uses the term loosely as such.

I KNOW what Bernie intended. But, I can't speak for the interpreting minds of others.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Yeah, but that is where a responsible media asks a responsible question

instead he threw in their faces their implied racism, and people are going over how much more tone deaf he is.

Hey, another fun one on language evolution is "that is so mexican..." No racism involved, though if you have ever heard it might sound as such. It truly stands for improvisation. For example, you see somebody reusing tubs of butter you buy at the store instead of buying dedicated whatever, that is so mexican. And it derives from the use and reuse of those containers until they break. Hey I am guilty. I at times buy Folgers, to get a new container for my coffee.

[retrowire]

80. I call that being frugal.

THOUGH, I have heard that being called "ghetto" as well.

And I do that too, I take those GIANT cat litter buckets, clean them out and use them for Dog food and Cat food containers.

You're right about the responsible media though. But... Responsible media is deaaaaddd...

[jalan48]

73. Thanks nadin for the thoughtful post.

[sadoldgirl]

74. When I grew up in Europe

we called Harlem and other poor AA neighborhoods
"black ghettos", I am sure now that we would have
called similar artificially restricted areas for Latinos
in similar terms.

I find this brouhaha about Bernie's use of the word
ghetto an indirect attack on his being jewish without
any deeper understanding.

So, yes I find this attack in a clever way a racist
one, especially if you heard him talk about the housing
education and possibilities for AAs in Baltimore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. I am more direct about it

the antisemitism is quite in the open now.

[Vinca]

77. Every week there is a new brouhaha that is dumber than the previous week.

This time it's "ghetto." I hope to hell neither candidate accidently breaks wind on stage . . . it would be like the end times around here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Actually I am hoping for that

In a perverse way.

[Vinca]

88. I'd rather see it at a Trump/Cruz debate, but how could you distinguish

what's coming out of their mouths from what's shooting out of their butts?

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. You know, I need to write an article that is comlex

and now I have to get that image out of my mind

[ecstatic]

79. Your post has nothing to do with what Sanders stated last night

He really thinks that all blacks (except for celebrities) are poor people who live in the ghetto. He is completely and utterly ignorant when it comes to other cultures.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Nope,

[noiretextatique]

146. No, he doesn't. I think he knows the Obamas.

Last edited Tue Mar 8, 2016, 05:48 AM - Edit history (1)

And probably a few more black people too. This is just the most ridiculous, simplistic reductionism...ever.

[noiretextatique]

166. Bullshit...Sanders was recounting a conversation with a BLM activist

He was using her words when he mentioned the :sacred: word. I just read a transcript, and it was very clearly he was re-telling what she said to hom.

[silvershadow]

82. He used a totally appropriate word, in a totally appropriate way. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Agreed

but people are now doing what they are doing... for the reasons they are doing, none of them good at this point in my view.

[silvershadow]

89. A few are trying to drive a wedge between us, in whatever way they can.

To my mind it is a non-issue. Don't let them do it. At least he is trying to convey his heart. His policies win, hands down. His lack of deep ties to entrenched Washington insiders and groups is actually refreshing. He will be a great President.

[noiretextatique]

151. Me too eom

[Bread and Circus]

84. It seems like he used the definition correctly then

"A ghetto is a part of a city in which members of a minority group live, especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure. The term was originally used in Venice to describe the part of the city to which Jews were restricted and segregated."

That's basically what we find in a lot of America.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Yes, he did

[femmedem]

86. Thanks, Nadin. I was thinking along the same lines

and posted about it here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1280138134

But you said it more eloquently and thoroughly. It makes my heart ache that a Jewish man who lost much of his family in the Holocaust could be reviled for using the word ghetto.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. It is insane and they are still digging

[noretreatnosurrender]

114. Gleefully Digging

They are matching what Trump is doing. Anyone not with them is sexist, racist, etc., etc. It's like a mirror image of the Trump campaign. They delight in setting groups against each other so that they can suppress the vote on the other side just like Trump does. It's sickening. And now they are going after a Jewish man for using the word ghetto. It's just mind numbing to me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. and sticking to it as well

I lost 50 relatives to the holocaust, Sanders had almost his whole european branch wiped out. It is almost as if we are also seeing a denial of the holocaust.

[noretreatnosurrender]

116. They have lost their minds

I'm angry about this but I know this is PERSONAL to you. I'm so sorry what this is doing to you. All I can say is that many, many people stand with you. We haven't forgotten the history of the Jewish people.

Last night when they tried to pretend that Bernie was sexist in the debate it was personal to me. I've been working on gender equality since the 70s. They are in effect setting us back in what we accomplished. Any feminist knows that it's about equality not special treatment. She interrupted him during the debate and he did what anyone would do and to pretend otherwise is incorrect. To use women in this pathetic attempt to gain political points is despicable.

They are so focused on WINNING that they just don't care how they do it. They have no honor or integrity and it shows. They talk about Trump dividing people. They really need to look in the mirror.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. In the 1980s I broke some barriers myself

I was one of the first female paramedics in Mexico... when I started we could not work at night, and had to have a male partner. When I left, we worked any shift and we had all female crews, So that is also kind of personal

This is becuase I am seeing that specter back. I fear we will see another genocide in the US at the pace we are going. To me never again means a lot of people, not just Jews. I will stand gladly with my Muslim brothers and sisters.

Treat her as a delicate flower. I was astounded.

[noretreatnosurrender]

121. Good on you

Why am I not surprised about your history. That's fabulous!

I too stand with our Muslim brothers and sisters because they are the latest group to be placed in the crosshairs. Their lives are so casually tossed away as if they aren't human like the rest of us. It sickens me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. Recently the Mexican Air Force had their first femiale cadet

I was going YOU GO WOMAN!!!! And they opened special forces to women well before we did. I would like to think a smidgen to do with that. Not to say the country does not have issues, they still do. Like we do.

I know we did with SDFD opening the doors to women. That is a fun story all on it's own.

[noretreatnosurrender]

131. Do an OP

Would love to hear about it.

[haikugal]

134. Same here Nadin...

I'm concerned about the same thing.

[noamnety]

96. "I remember Warsaw"

(I feel like this needs to be here, hope that's okay)

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Thank you

In silent remembrance to the six million Jews and seven million gentiles who died...

[sulphurdunn]

99. Do you think it was coincidence

that the woman at the debate asked Sanders 'the religion question'or that Cooper's follow up question, tying it to Judaism, was an accident? CNN and the rest of the corporate media is all in for Clinton. America's rightwing Jewish community is all in for Clinton. They don't give a rat's ass that Sanders is a Jew and neither should you, but they would sure as hell like it become the issue rather than Sander's message. It seems obvious that Sanders wanted to avoid the trap of his religion and ethnicity becoming issues. Kennedy tried too. He final had to tell the electorate that he was not the Catholic candidate for president but the Democratic Party candidate for president. Sanders should make the same point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Nope... they are doing to him what they did to Kennedy

the dog whistle was loud and clear in my living room.

[noamnety]

110. That dog whistle in the context of this election hurts.

We have Trump with his followers literally doing the nazi salute vs. Bernie who grew up Jewish and poor. And this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Hold it, they keep telling me that he was not poor

Which is also part of the whistle. All Jews are rich you see.

I think we need to start naming the smears. They are antisemitic.

[Liberal Jesus Freak]

105. Thanks for this.

I always learn something from your posts

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. You welcome

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. to posters, one of the usual suspects

is already here trying to shit stir, and deny the experience of a Jew, or what was meant, I ask all NOT TO ENGAGE that poster.

[PeaceNikki]

122. Nobody is trying to deny Sanders' experience as a Jew.

Nobody.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. IN case you wonder that was not you

and I suspect you and I will not agree on this anyway, So have a good day.

[PeaceNikki]

124. I don't think everything is about me, but I stand by my statement.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. And I stand by my impression

there, you see. have a good day, have the last word

[PeaceNikki]

127. K

[NurseJackie]

108. You're trying too hard. (And it's not working.)

Etymological dissection and cut-and-paste from Websters doesn't change how Americans typically understand the idiomatic use of the word, nor does it change the context of how Bernie used it.

For all the verbal gymnastics, I'll give you a score of 6-point-oh. It was an energetic and enthusiastic attempt, but it lacked technique and you slipped and missed the landing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. Nor does it change what he threw back into the face of the press

and you are also trying too hard.

Have an excellent day.

[Bread and Circus]

111. Words matter. Sorry.

[PatrynXX]

117. Well if a Jew is going after big banks

I don't think his Ghetto is um well you keep saying that word I do not think it means what you think it means situation . So it used to mean if your going after the Rich Bankers you were going after rich jews I don't think thats what Bernie's doing. . Times change, some people change with the times. Others stay the same (within context of course) But his face places are like 1 or 2 vs the other sides face plants equal to knocking their head off

[Buzz cook]

129. Bernie mispoke, its not a big deal. nt

nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. He acutally did not

and it is a big deal.

It is a big deal that people are not willing to listen to his experience and where he is coming from.

That and the religious tests are dog whistles that are so loud in this house we need hearing protection.

[Buzz cook]

133. Using the word ghetto

to describe a place where African Americans live is something that the majority of black people find objectionable. As such it was a bad choice of words.

An experienced politician speaking in a national venue should not expect the audience to read the "true" meaning of their statements. I don't believe that Bernie has done so in this instance because he did clarify what he said.

At any rate people, who don't live on the internet, aren't making a big deal beyond pointing it out. No one, not on the internet, thinks any less of Bernie for his poor use of words beyond pointing them out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. Shoudl I throw at you the same implied racism that Sanders threw at the media?

You hang on that fantasy that the word only describes African American communities in the urban core m'kay. By the way, the kids these days use HOOD, and my Latin Kids use BARRIO.

Or should I throw at you the HOLOCAUST for fucking sake?

[Buzz cook]

159. Are you saying that the Jewish son of immagrants

that escaped the holocaust while losing a large part of his family to it; would say that he couldn't understand what it meant to live in a Jewish ghetto?

Words have meanings and usages.

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. Yup they do

And he used the word correctly.

[noiretextatique]

148. I don't think people who live in ghettos were offended

Why would they be? It is still a place that too many Black people still do not escape, and it is still a place that nobody gives a damn about, for the most. Accept to score political points. What is more outrageous than Bernie's comments? The fact that ghettos actually still exist.

[Buzz cook]

160. There is an African American forum on this web site

Perhaps you might want to talk to those folks about your theory.

On edit: if you've read my posts then you know I don't think what Bernie said was a big deal.

[noiretextatique]

165. I'm black, and fully aware of that forum... I used to post there

And its pro-Clinton, anti-Sanders bias. I've actually written about it, urging Sanders supporters not to fall for their bs. I am also aware of the concerted effort to tarnish Bernie as tonedeaf on race, which is why I urge my fellow black people to read his comprehensive racial justice plank to counter the noise. Any other suggestions?

[JunkYardDogg]

136. Ghetto is a word & a concept which NEVER should be forgotten by Jews

From the birth of culture, to the end of humanity, no Jew should ever forget the History of Ghettos, especially the Warsaw Ghetto.
Because of all the numerous Jewish ethnic cleansing episodes throughout history, the concept of ghettos is deeply imbedded in Jewish culture. When a Jew uses that word, like Bernie used it, it is done with the full and complete understanding of the reasons why cultural and ethnic Ghettos exist. Any new age, trendy, politically correct, fashionable term more acceptable does not mean what the term Ghetto means to Jews. Bernie's use of the term was a sign of respect and understanding, not a sign of lameness and being dated.

Good article and replies Nadine
Sometimes words do have a lot more historical and cultural substance and meaning than new age, trendoid, fashionable, politically correct , hip, flavor of the day, words. I find the criticism of Bernie's use of the word Ghetto to be fashionably lame.

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. Correct, and the attempt to steal that from a Jew is well vile

[JunkYardDogg]

143. So true

You know, Nadine
I did not give his comment much thought & I did not pay much attention to the criticism of it, I just wrote it off as more H vs Bernie bullshit, until I saw your article , than it really clicked
Just as people are criticizing Bernie for not understanding associating Ghetto with Black people, these same people do not have an f'n clue what Ghetto means to Jews
Good work
F the momsers

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. Thank you

[noiretextatique]

154. My question to the offended: Who the hell else is talking about poor black people?

And the entrenched poverty, substandard housing, shitty schools, poor services, and lack of opportunity that keeps people stuck in ghettos? They are,"offended"...fuck that! It is almost as ridiculous as claiming focusing on economics somehow is negates the reality of racism. When 50% of black youth are unemployed, I think it would criminal to NOT talk about economic solutions. And all of those youth don't live in mansions in Beverly Hills either.

[islandmkl]

138. tomato...tomahto....go into the deep 'hood in most cities and tell me they aren't ghettos...

of course, not the whole city, not necessarily even the larger surrounding vicinity...NYC among other cities has had ghettos of nearly every ethnicity throughout its history...immigrants of all races, displaced southerners, etc....

if you know any history...in the East, in the last half of so of the 20th century, 'Black became the new Irish'....

the extent of poverty, despair, and total social beatdown is both visible and palpable...

and we have certain posters who want to parse the word to try to score some fucking political agenda points...

on edit: nadin: another great post from you...you always bring up the deep points...and bring out the deniers...you have the knack

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. My apologies

Last edited Tue Mar 8, 2016, 12:17 PM - Edit history (1)

misread it

[historylovr]

145. K & R

[noiretextatique]

147. I am black, and I have no problem with what he said

I grew up on Compton, and I agree that most white people do not know what it was like because there were no white people there! Bernie has been having discussions with BLM activists, unlike Clinton, and perhaps he got some information from them. He probably could have phrased it better, but I am not looking for a reason to be offended either. I cut my friends and allies, some slack, if I believe their hearts are in the right place. I do not believe:

He thinks all black people are poor, or that all black people live in the ghetto. Desegregation, white flight, redlining, etc all happened in my lifetime. One of reasons my family settled in Compton is because that is a place black people COULD buy homes in Southern California in the 50s when Bernie was protesting housing discrimination.

Most of the AAs lived in South Central, Watts and Compton because we were not welcome in other areas. And hell yes...growing up in Compton during the Watts riots most definitely shaped my opinion of the police, who were all white, and very much an unwanted occupying force. I grew up hearing about the Sandra Bland's and Mike Brown's of that era. I watched the drugs come, then the gangs, then the violence. And this was on the late 60s
early 70s before it got even worse. When my brother was killed because of drugs in 72, we moved on to Carson. Then the white flight started there.

I also live in Richmond, CA for about a year. North Richmond, to be precise. This was about two years ago. And it is a ghetto with mostly black and Latino residents. Many of the people there are poor, and many are unemployed or underemployed. The crime rate is high, and so is the murder rate. I had no problems there, but there was definitely a lot of stuff going on there, but the housing is cheaper than most places in the Bay. So like many black and/or latino areas in the Bay, the gentrifiers are moving in.

I am sure his personal history does shape his views and perspective. Both my parents grew up in the South, the segregated South. I am sure that experience shaped their views as well. They grew up on farms, but the areas where they lived as young adults were segregated as well. I am sure white people don't know what their lives were like either.

So this is my context for how I interpreted his remarks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. I posted the full transcript of that section

in another OP, and I also posted what he told the press. who also create the narrative that all minorities, not just blacks, are poor and live in ghettoes. Of course the offended have a problem with the wording. YOU ARE, is not enough or clear enough.

I gotta finish my article on a sub urban school district that media would not mostly touch.

Black kids, in a suburban district? GET OUT OF HERE! When did that start? Well from the data we requested, at least 10 years. I know, run fer them hills, protect women and children! And they have Latino kids too... the horror!

School district is not diverse enough, and does not represent the community it serves, see point above. And we are all extremely surprised by this as well, NOT.

I also find it vile that people are getting offended over a use of a word that is also very much so, part of the jewish experience. And what he said to the media, tells me he was speaking about himself as well growing up in a Jewish ghetto (nothing official, it is a jot a jewish quarter), in NYC. So he was talking about BLM... Jewish poverty, and white privilege,So throw BLM under the bus, Jews can never, ever be poor, and what is that white guy doing talking about white privilege, We have only been complaining about that for how long and now he does it. QUICK forget that talking point and bring another.

Also, his European branch of the family was concentrated in a very ugly ghetto before dying in the Holocaust, So again, that is vile from the easily offended. I wonder if it is our educational system failing, and why Trump is doing so well, or it is something else. We have talked in private about that possibility, It is becoming hard to ignore

Oh and here is the transcript, After that was posted died.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511439516

[LanternWaste]

156. Is it the norm to apply the classical definition of every word to informal and colloquial dialog?

Is it the norm to apply the classical definition of every word to informal and colloquial dialog (e.g., 'naughty' still inferred as one who has nothing, 'bachelor' to mean an un-landed member of the English gentry)?

We’re human. We love to play with words in creative ways. And in the process, we change the language. In retrospect, we often think the changes words undergo are fascinating. May we transfer some of that fascination and wonder — some of the awe that used to make the words awful and awesome synonymous — to the changes we’re witnessing today rather than using them as a rationalization to justify what is at worst, a verbal misstep and what is at best, simply a verbal misstep.

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. What you see as a verbal mistep

I see as part of a vile pattern, of otherwizing. And the media is playing along. They did the same crap to JFK.

And at this point I suspect that is at play too.

[noiretextatique]

169. Absolutely spot on, nadinbrzezinski

This is just a continuation of a false narrative.

[VulgarPoet]

163. I'm half-black, and I can't do anything except agree with this.

Yet another stellar post, Nadine.

[noiretextatique]

167. Bernie was QUOTING a BLM activist

I was remiss in not commenting on your wonderfully informative post...thank you.

However, ghettogate is really another example of the media and the Clinton campaign, totally misrepresenting what actually happened to continue a dishonest narrative about Sanders' tonedeafness on race.

[nadinbrzezinski]

170. Yup