I'm so sad people have no understanding of demand/supply. Fracking->increases oil SS -> lower price

[hill2016]

So sad that some people have NO concept of maths, economics or reality.

By the way, this is a positive statement not a normative statement.

In relation to this thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511438279

[HERVEPA]

1. Awaiting translation to standard English

[TheBlackAdder]

38. Seems like the OP writer doesn't research the LNG tankers and depots being built, to sell offshore.

.


NG is being fracked for planned sales to Pacific Rim and Eurasia countries, not for domestic consumption.

People were sold on NG as a better alternative to electric and fuel oil for residential use.

Now, with the cost of solar coming down, factored over 20 years, the price is competitive and not subject to market fluctuation. As solar continues to come down in price and land-based wind generation is cheaper than NG, there is little future for oil and NG. It's a dying industry that will see less and less market share over the years.



.

[el_bryanto]

2. I wonder if Fracking leads to anything besides increased Oil Supply?

I mean, is it possible that fracking could lead to, oh I don't know, terrible environmental consequences?

Bryant

[Stuart G]

4. PERHAPS FRACKING LEADS TO..................'EARTHQUAKES'''......SAY IT AIN'T SO??????????

[el_bryanto]

8. Ah - do you have any evidence to support that claim?

Or are you just fucking around?

Because I was of course being facetious - there's plenty of evidence that Fracking does lead to environmental consequences in those communities unfortunate enough to live near fracking sites. I kind of assumed that most if not all DUers were aware of the environmental consequences of Fracking.

Bryant

[PyaarRevolution]

61. A Texas judge found there was enough evidence to support...

the earthquake assertion. Look it up.

[Shadowflash]

11. I know, right?

I really have never seen any pro fracking posts on this board before. How odd.

Yes it increases the oil supply so we get a few cents off each gallon but it is destroying the environment. So much so that the CEOs of oil companies don't want it near THEIR homes.

Not worth the extra nickle per gallon. Not by a long shot.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/02/22/exxon-mobil-tillerson-ceo-fracking/5726603/

[PyaarRevolution]

62. Seeing the general inclination of the posts by the OP.

I'm starting to wonder if he or she is an actual Hillary supporter.

[Cobalt Violet]

53. Only money matters.

[LWolf]

68. Because for some of us,

what we do to the planet is more important than the price of oil. You know; those of us who have been advocating transferring from fossil fuels to more sustainable, cleaner energy for decades, or for our entire lives.

We know that won't happen until the oil industry has extracted every goddamned last drop of profit, and ensured that they will hold the reins of whatever comes next.

To suggest that fracking is acceptable because of oil prices? That's the mindset I have voted, and will be voting against for my voting life.

[marmar]

3. I'm so sad people post cryptic OPs.

[raging moderate]

10. Oh, I understand, all right.

I just care about a greater good. And about not victimizing others for my benefit.

[VulgarPoet]

5. I'm so sad people have no understanding of climate change. Fracking->toxic runoff->poisoned water

So sad that some people have NO concept of clean fuel, the future generation not being throttled by smog, or what's been going on with the weather recently.

[Lizzie Poppet]

6. I'm so sad people condescendingly mistake different priorities for ignorance.

Money isn't everything to some of us. We're not conservatives.

Or liberals that imitate them...

[cherokeeprogressive]

7. maths is hard.

[panader0]

9. Didn't you get enough abuse in your last post on this?

Fracking is NOT GOOD.

[noamnety]

12. Translation for those who need it.

Poisoning the water supply isn't so bad if it helps big business keep gas prices down for poor people. It's all about helping poor people.

[ScreamingMeemie]

13. I'm so sad people have to support the things that we as Dems used to rally together

against all because of a candidate.

I don't care who that candidate is, I stick to my principals.

[bigwillq]

15. ....

[demmiblue]

18. +1

[cyberswede]

25. ^yep. nt

[bunnies]

35. Makes me wonder how far this will go.

Fracking?! Poison water? Democrats are cool with these things now? Gee, I cant wait to find out whats next!

[PufPuf23]

42. It is sickening and destroying the Democratic Party from within.

Then that was the aim of the DLC and is the aim of those now carrying the neoliberal torch.

[gollygee]

14. You like math, but do you like science?

Fracking does a lot of bad to the environment.

And as far as economic issues go, if there isn't fracking, there's more incentive to come up with sustainable energy solutions.

[Bad Thoughts]

24. I don't believe the OP likes economics

It really does not support the assertion that fracking has been keeping has prices low.

[Tom Rinaldo]

16. Keep fracking and we will be tracking soaring prces for clean drinking water

That's life and death supply and demand.

[Sunlei]

67. I think it's USA gold mining industry that uses toxic chems & tears-up land is hard on environment.

all those old mines full of a toxic mess, and old coal mines too.

[Stuart G]

17. I am so sad that some people acuse others of not having a concept of "economics"

Economics involves more than the price of one product at one time

[whatchamacallit]

19. Why not just kick your last shitty thread, instead of creating a new one to point to it?

[AzDar]

49. ...

[islandmkl]

20. how's the price of clean water in the market?...how's its supply?...and, in an emerging market...

what is the price of real estate in the not-too-distant future in those areas, you know, major fault-line locations like south-central Kansas and north-central Oklahoma, which are now suffering daily earthquakes of increasing intensity...

one thing I learned from growing up in Kansas...there were just too damn many earthquakes...well, actually there were never any, NONE, that were discernible physically...

today...well that situation has changed...Kansas is tornadoes, Land of Oz, Dorothy and Toto...NOT California falling into the sea...

[Amimnoch]

21. Glad to see this has only gotten one Rec.

Really, if this is your issue, you might be on the wrong side of the table.

[mmonk]

22. It's sad people believe with all the Wall Street manipulation

that real supply and demand is still practiced. It's equally sad that people think we can poison our aquifers and rivers and streams with no cost to the natural world and life and no later monetary costs.

[Bad Thoughts]

23. LOWER OIL PRICES ARE BEING DRIVEN BY THE SAUDIS, NOT FRACKING

Read the paper!

[DetlefK]

26. Actually, fracking is not the reason.

Right now:

1. Saudi-Arabia is keeping the price low to kill the US fracking-companies that were founded with loans.

2. Venezuela desperately needs money and has shit-tons of oil. They push even more oil on the market, lowering the price even more.

In the near future:

3. Iran will start selling oil again, lowering the price even more.

4. China is putting a break on its economic growth, slowing economic growth in many small asian countries as well, reducing the overall demand for oil.

[hill2016]

36. so..

if not for the fact that the US fracking companies have been fracking, the price of oil would be higher?

[ibegurpard]

44. please get a clue

The Saudis and OPEC have been playing chicken with US and Canadian oil producers by flooding the market with their oil (which is cheaper to produce than fracking methods). We could PAY companies to using fracking to produce oil right now and they wouldn't be doing it because the price of oil is so low. Please educate yourself on basic supply and demand before you post rot like this.

[DetlefK]

50. In general, Yes. But as I said, it's more complicated than just supply&demand.

[Avalux]

27. I'm so sad and ANGRY that the water in Pennsylvania is contaminated from fracking.

So sad and ANGRY that some people have NO concept of the worth of life and use dead-end arguments in support of that which hurts the environment and people.

Your support of Hillary is not surprising, as you sit there and promote fracking. Disgusting.

[daleanime]

28. ......

Can you drink profits?

[Broward]

29. I feel your pain. It's so sincere.

[choie]

30. What is sad

Is that you don't understand two words: POISONED WATER.

[Logical]

31. Wow! Now hillary loves fracking so her supporters love it too! Nt

[Ron Green]

32. SUCK OF THE DAY

Wow, I had to resume this award just for this mindless OP. What an enormous crock!

[Svafa]

33. People's wellbeing, safety, and health

are just more important to us than super cheap gas.

[bigbrother05]

34. The last big boom in the late '70s - mid '80s gave us the S&L scandal

Oil & gas drilling/speculation throughout TX/OK/NM and into the Midwest (OH/PA) as well as the Mountain West (WY/UT) was funded by dicey loans. Many of those loans were coming out of the S&L business because they had less gov't oversight and they made a lot of insider deals (Silverado, Neil Bush?) that didn't make a lot of sense. There was also a huge boom in real estate as they built new office buildings for high flying businesses in the industry as well as in the boom towns near the production sites.

There was fracking going on all over those locations in the drive to get the most out of the ground while things were hot after the OPEC oil embargoes. There were regulatory agencies in place to monitor how the work was done so accidents and spills were quickly taken care of and lessons learned passed through the industry.

So guess what happened? At the height of the US going all in on production, OPEC opened the spigots and decimated domestic exploration. Locations with proven fields and stable infrastructure survived the downturn and the established companies absorbed the oil field service business that was left in the reduced marketplace. Lots of money was made by those in early and lost by those in late.

Any of that sound familiar? Now, after 30+ years of attacks on the government and regulations, with this new boom we have broad environmental problems in delicate locations and earthquake swarms through the Plains. Many in the industry (Koch Bros, etc) were leading advocates for the RW agenda and paved the way for Reagan and his fellow travelers, turning traditionally Dem states into the red state miasma that we see now.

So, yes it is sad, but not because we don't understand supply/demand or fracking. It's sad because we understand it only too well, and are getting pretty damn tired of it.

[TheFarS1de]

37. No concept of reality ?

Poisoned ground water is the reality . Short term gain , long term pain . It is a stupid and toxic practice .

[Motown_Johnny]

39. We do understand that. But when you poison the ground water, it isn't worth the price reduction.

How can you not understand that?

[hobbit709]

40. Then why are the frackers going broke because of the Saudi caused LOW oil prices?

[Spider Jerusalem]

41. Meanwhile the planet has recorded a temperature of 2C over pre-industrial baseline...

for the first time ever. The price of gasoline NEEDS to go up, significantly, by enough that people use a lot less of it.

[Lorien]

46. Amen to that! Increased temps=larger ocean dead zones=less oxygen

and within 40 years= NO MORE US, or much of any other species, for that matter. It really ain't rocket science.

[ibegurpard]

43. Oh FFS...

Are you seriously suggesting the United States has control over the entire supply of the world's oil? Because that's what it would take to control the prices. Fracking is expensive and companies are NOT going to do it when oil prices are where they are right now...you end up losing money.
Talk about a complete lack of knowledge about economics...

[Lorien]

45. Here's some reality for you Hill:

Every body of water in Florida is connected by just TWO aquifers. One fracking waste water spill could easily fully contaminate either, making half the State uninhabitable. Is it worth it, when FREE ENERGY FALLS FROM THE SKY every day? Burlington Vermont is now using 100% clean, green renewable energy. Saudi Arabia, Germany, Denmark and Scotland hope to make the switch by 2020. Meanwhile, we have your friends the Kochs attempting to tax solar out of existence in the States so that they can enrich themselves through Fracking by creating artificial shortages.

Stop falling for and promoting Koch/ GOP/ DLC talking points. It's pathetic for any "Dem" to do so!

[Lorien]

47. Fracking fans need to wake up to what this process does to us all:

[DefenseLawyer]

48. At the risk of being rude

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[joshcryer]

51. Fracking did not increase oil, itself, by significant amounts.

What happened was the Saudi's started seeing that fracking was very profitable at $100 a barrel and therefore started ramping up production themselves to prevent fracking from actually becoming a thing. The more fracked wells there are the more economical it becomes to exploit shale oil, which the US has the largest supply of by far of any country.

The Saudi's don't want their biggest arms exporter to have an edge on oil so they stopped it.

[A Little Weird]

52. The reality is

That even if fracking lowers gas prices (it doesn't), it is not worth it to poison the water and damage the aquifers. Even if fracking meant we could have free gas it wouldn't be worth the irreparable damage being done.

Even if Hillary didn't have a bunch of other negatives, this single topic alone would make her unworthy of the presidency.

[GoneFishin]

54. And the word 'fracking' sounds like a swear word. It's fun to say. That must be worth something.

You can use it so many ways, like:

"Those fracking assholes polluted the drinking water for thousands of children and pregnant women".

[Chan790]

55. Because you're still wrong and it still isn't related.

The cost of oil has dropped so far that frack oil and gas production has been basically zero-lined...what of it is occurring is occurring on Uncle Sam's dime for the most part, going directly into the strategic reserve and not into the marketplace, in order to keep workers working and prevent a massive depression-level economic downturn in rural areas of America that cannot afford that kind of economic collapse right now at the same time we don't want to spike the price of oil further by allowing that oil into the marketplace because it would cause the production scale-down to spread and spread the downturn with it to yet more areas of the country.

It would have no impact on the price or supply of oil if it were banned because that oil is not in the marketplace now. (It's the hydrocarbon equivalent of farm subsidies going to grow corn that goes from farm to incinerator in order to keep it out of the commodity market so it doesn't spike the commodity price.) We're within about a year and a half of the point where we meet that strategic maximum holding and that production ceases too, with or without a ban, if the price to get it out of the ground continues to exceed the ppb of oil in the international and national marketplaces.

In short, you're still wrong. You will remain wrong as long as you continue to believe something untrue...that fracked oil and gas are, in any part, part of how we have gotten close enough to energy independence that OPEC decided to shit the market in order to try to force domestic production to cease. If fracked oil in the US and Canada dropped to zero tomorrow, supply would still exceed demand by a substantial enough margin that it would not move the needle on the price of a barrel of oil.

[Vinca]

56. Up is down and down is up.

Some Democrats now love fracking and hate single-payer. Light those faucets people.

[Katashi_itto]

57. I will agree only if you promise to drink the resultant groundwater for a year -if you last that

long.

So yes, fracking has some small effect on oil prices in the effect that more oil means less prices. However there is a ripple effect. Environment, earthquakes, poisoned groundwater. You know, the small stuff.

[cherokeeprogressive]

58. Fracking leads to drinking beer and kissing in phone booths; all anyone needs to know.

Now kindly go something out of the ordinary with yourself.

[djean111]

59. Last week I actually saw cluster bombs defended.

Looks like the Department of Making Bad Things Seem GOOD has started its task of trying to make the issues that people have with Hillary's stances, deeds, record, and policies palatable.

Fracking GOOD! TPP Good! War GOOD! Cluster bombs NECESSARY! And any disagreement will be labeled sexist.
Guess what? We can see all that coming. Won't work.

[libtodeath]

60. So money means everything?

Fracking and fossil fuel use are destroying the planet.

[pdsimdars]

63. Geez, and I'm so sad other people don't understand WATER

Did you know that people need water to live?
Did you know that people need food to live and that you need water to grow food?
Do you have any idea where water comes from?
It's called an aquifer. If that ever gets tainted, it can't be fixed.

Let the people with BIG brains and some perspective decide which is more important, a possible small reduction in gas prices or LIFE ON EARTH? Hmmmmm. Seems like a no brainer to me. It seems to me that only people with no brains or perspective would choose to save a few cents.

[HooptieWagon]

64. Sounds like text from a HRC speech to Exxon.

I wouldn't normally expect to see RW talking points on DU, but Hillary (Drill, Baby, Drill!) Clinton isn't a usual Democratic candidate. I'm surprised she isn't running as a Republican, where her policy positions lie.

[libtodeath]

69. Not possible,she would not let that slip out after cashing the check.

[beedle]

65. This is why Bernie's free public college education is so important

A decent education could have prevented this tragically cryptic message supporting a policy based on voodoo economics.

[Sunlei]

66. there is easy quality crude oil across the world. There is less fracking & tar sands because its not

worth the cost anymore.

Our country is fortunate we aren't totally dependent on crude oil sales like some other 'struggling' countries. We're actually exporting some crude this year, that's new business

Plus an extra couple hundred a month in my pocket from lower gas price, is another huge positive.