2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumPresident Sanders would have vetoed the TARP bill to make a point. That would have ended the US
financial system as we knew it.
He's an ideologue, through and through
That scares me!!!
Csainvestor
(388 posts)US citizens needed a bailout. Instead the 1% got a bailout. If TARP failed there would have been another version of it that helped ordinary people more than the rich.
TARP was the largest theft EVER perpetrated on American citizens.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)PyaarRevolution
(814 posts)Now I know where you stand and that you'd never vote for Bernie, even if he got the nom. I mean your attitude via meme on TARP, which was a blank check for banks after their instigation of the subprime mortgage crisis after becoming investment banks says it all.
WDIM
(1,662 posts)as we know it. It is a corrupt system that sucks money from the hard workers in this country and gives money to the elitist parasites that live off the hard work of others.
procon
(15,805 posts)WDIM
(1,662 posts)One person cannot change it alone.
But first WE need to break up the banks.
We need to raise taxes on the wealthy and Wall Street
We need to cap interest rates and bring usury laws back on the books.
We need democratic work places not top down dictatorships. Employee ownership.
We need living wages
Debt free education
Affordable housing
End the Federal Reserve
End derivative trading
We need a system where we all prosper together that doesnt allow the wealthy to exploit the working class. We need a system where hard work truly does make one successful instead of that hard working going to make rich richer.
procon
(15,805 posts)Just at first blush, without even addressing the question of revenues, or which party controls the purse, some of the things you're advocating seem contrary to the Constitution.
WDIM
(1,662 posts)And the same down ticket.
Nothing I said is contrary to the Constitution. There is no economic theory ingrained in the Constitution.
Id even argue that the federal reserve is unconstitutional.
Our government is not living up to the mandate put forth in our Constitution of providing defense, promoting general welfare, and securing the blessings of liberty.
procon
(15,805 posts)There's no guarantee that you will get anything you're wishing for, let alone everything you've listed. Don't get me wrong, as a socialist for the past 50 years, it sounds all noble and marvelously bourgeois. Can we take just one example; You say employees should own workplaces, is that all businesses? How does that happen if the owner of record doesn't want to sell, do you confiscate it, and where does the money come from to buy a multi-million $$$ biz?
I also have a tough time grasping your particular brand of social progressiveness that advocates for more defense spending (that's more taxes, yeah?) when the US already spends close to what the entire rest of the world spends in defense combined -- $711 Billion a year compared to the next closest, China at $143 Billion.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)It would have ended a lot of well-paid financiers and banksters' careers however.
TheBlackAdder
(28,189 posts)panader0
(25,816 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)think
(11,641 posts)And that the Inspector General that over saw TARP blew the whistle and wrote a book showing how our govt abandoned Main Street to bailout Wall Street:
by Neil Barofsky
In telling of his stranger-than-fiction baptism into the corrupted ways of Washington, Barofsky offers an irrefutable indictment, from an insider of the Bush & Obama administrations, of the mishandling of the $700 billion TARP bailout fund. In behind-the-scenes detail, he shows the extreme degree to which government officials bent over backward to serve the interests of Wall Street firms at the expense of the public& at the expense of effective financial reform. During the height of the financial crisis in 2008, Barofsky gave up his job as a prosecutor in the US Attorneys Office in NYC, where he'd convicted drug kingpins, Wall Street executives & mortgage fraud perpetrators, to become the special inspector general in charge of oversight of bailout money spending. From the first his efforts to protect against fraud & to hold big banks accountable for how they spent taxpayer money were met with outright hostility from Treasury officials in charge of the bailouts.
Barofsky discloses how, in serving banking interests, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner & his team worked with Wall Street executives to design programs to would funnel vast amounts of taxpayer money to their firms & would have allowed them to game the markets & make huge profits with almost no risk or accountability, while repeatedly fighting efforts to put the necessary fraud protections in place. His investigations also uncovered abject mismanagement of the bailout of insurance giant AIG & Geithners decision to allow the payment of millions of dollars in bonuses & that the Obama administrations TARP Czar lobbied for the executives to retain their high pay....
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15737379-bailout
WDIM
(1,662 posts)How anyone cannot see that is truly blind.
PyaarRevolution
(814 posts)They would pull a Cyprus on us. Anyone in this thread who thinks otherwise isn't paying attention to their behavior.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Could their be enough votes to pass a revised version? Would the banks and auto industry collapse while they were haggling over the details? Who knows but it was too risky to take that gamble... imo.
TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)But no one gave a shit that the bill is going to be passed onto their kids and grandkids . That is always an option , but a few wealthy people loose it all and it is the end of the fucking world . I do no believe for a second that would have been the outcome .
DCBob
(24,689 posts)TARP was profitable.
Sky Masterson
(5,240 posts)That doesn't inspire anyone that doesn't already like her.
On the top of our ticket.
People vote for who they like. They voted for Obama over Romney/McCain, and they voted Bush 2 over Gore, And Clinton over Bush 1. It shouldn't be a popularity contest but it is.
Bernie votes wont all transfer to Hillary because many people have a well conditioned hate for Hillary.
Don't get me wrong, I'll vote for whatever Dem gets the Nod, but Bernie would have a better shot at defeating the trash that ends up running on the Republican ticket.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)SDJay
(1,089 posts)Oh wait... wrong thread again. My bad.
Sivart
(325 posts)To make a point? You cant be serious....
My Good Babushka
(2,710 posts)the choice wasn't between TARP and nothing. There are a million ways the "too big to fail" institutions could have been unwound and preserved more of our economy, we just weren't allowed to consider them.
Dawgs
(14,755 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)dogman
(6,073 posts)The rich know how to scare and extort the populace. "The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism". It's good for selling wars also.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Doo dah. Oh de doo dah day.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Answer: 1 - override the veto, or 2 - come up with a better bill. In fact 2 is exactly what happened to get
the actual Tarp bill passed, as version 1 failed in the House.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Bad Thoughts
(2,522 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)a candidate's history instead of their current statements. Looking at a candidate's history threatens support for that candidate.
So we can't have that.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)The hysterics are hysterical.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Carolina
(6,960 posts)Really?! Then you've not been paying attention or studied history.
When FDR bailed out the banks, he nationalized them. We paid, we owned. Then he enacted Glass-Steagall as a firewall against market speculation/frivolity by too big too fail conglomerates. He was an 'ideologue' and he was derisively called a socialist, too. But he saved the nation... only to have everything upended by, alas, a 3rd way Democrat whom I once supported, but now realize was truly Slick Willie, the appropriate moniker given him in Arkansas. And there at his side, as his 2-for-1, as his FLOTUS -- the position from which she derived some of her alleged, reflected 'experience -- was your girl Shillary.
Sanders would have ended a corrupt system, corrupted by repukes under Reagan and then turd way types under Clinton and even under Obama who would have put Social Security (another FDR legacy) on the bargaining (i.e. cutting) table. Enough of this shit. HRC is more of the same financial policies because you can't honestly believe that Goldman-Sucks paid her all that money for nothing. Plus, she's also more war, more regime change and more ME intervention which all translates to more death, debt, destruction and destabilization for the people (the women and children she claims to be such a champion of), while her MIC corporate buddies get even richer.
That Sanders wants to change such a rigged system and use public works to rebuild our infrastructure (also akin to FDR) energizes and inspires me.
WDIM
(1,662 posts)earthside
(6,960 posts)You do understand that TARP was a Bush administration piece of legislation advocated by Henry Paulson and the Wall Street banksters and speculators?
It's primary purpose was to rescue Bush and the Repuglicans from an event greater defeat in 2008 for their economic mismanagement that resulted in the September 2008 crash.
It's objective was to save George Bush's and Hillary's pals on Wall Street.
President Sanders would have formulated a rescue package that would have put regular working people first.
Are you still advocating for Drill Baby, Drill! today, too?
It sure looks like you can never quite take the Goldwater out of the Goldwater Girl.
I just don't quite understand this Hillarian propensity to defend Republicanism.
WDIM
(1,662 posts)on Wall Street a big bonus for supporting their wars of aggression and bilking of the tax payers for 8 years.
vintx
(1,748 posts)Did she really use that imagery in her own campaign logo?
Literally
Dawgs
(14,755 posts)Do you not understand how government works or is it that you think people are stupid enough to fall for your shit?
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)...would have pressured Congress to attach consequences and conditions to the damn thing instead of making it a free handout.
But by all means, keep clinging to the status quo if you find it so comforting and change so scary.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Legislation is handed down from upon high, and must be passed in that form. Your God has decreed that it is impossible to include limits or regulations on bailing out financial institutions, so they can never be added in response to something like a veto threat.
Remember when posters at DU made arguments more advanced than a Trump campaign speech? Ah, memories.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)Your statement is just as nonsensical.
phiddle
(789 posts)False, because TARP was a fait accompli in 2009, passed during the Bush administration and not able to be vetoed by the incoming president.
Ignorant, because the poster doesn't realize that according to the terms of the legislation the incoming president was granted very broad latitude in the administration of the law. (S)he could have defined the terms of solvency for financial institutions, set requirements for assets, compelled cram-down of mortgages, set limits on the type and amounts of executive compensation, and taken over in part or whole non-performing or non-complying institutions. According to Barofsky (see above), Obama + Geitner + Summers consistently chose the most banker-friendly and populace-hostile options.
Stupid, in that the poster does not take in to account that Sanders would have administered TARP very differently, and probably with much better results.
still_one
(92,187 posts)his lack of understanding how the fed works:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_12784.htm
Very similar when he voted against President Obama's appointment to the FDA, using the reasoning that because drug prices were too high. While drug prices are too high, it isn't due to the FDA. The FDA has no authority to regulate drug prices. Their mandate concerns the the safety and viability of a drug
Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)basselope
(2,565 posts)TARP was FALSELY presented as the ONLY option to save the country, which was not true. However, it was the one the CORPORATIONS really wanted, because it was risk free cash from the government.
There is a reason Russ Feingold and Debbie Stabenow (FROM MI) voted against it.
The result of TARP was this:
The government purchased stock in a bunch of companies for $700B. (non voting shares, so we got no say in how things were run) And then ended up divesting themselves of the investments 6 years later for a total of 715.5B. So, the uninformed voter says "look, we made 15.5 Billion dollars". But, what the uninformed voter doesn't know is first, 15B on a 700B investment is a .6% ROI. Since we were running a deficit at the time, it means the 700B was BORROWED money we were paying interest on. Approximately 2.43%. So, in the very first year of TARP we spent 17 Billion in interest. I'm not going to bother going back and figuring out when we divested each investment b/c it doesn't matter... the interest in year 1 overshadowed the entire gain. So TARP LOST US MONEY.
Further, b/c of the consolidation allowed, we are now MORE at the mercy of the big banks than we were BEFORE TARP. And please don't sell me on the Dodd Frank "tools", because by the time you are using the TOOLS in that weak as water legislation it is too late.
Now, you also don't know the GAMES the banks played in the months/quarters after TARP. Did you know that they temporarily STOPPED foreclosing on houses? Do you know why? Because when they foreclosed they had to report it on their books as a loss of the loan. So, for about 18 months after TARP, if you didn't pay your mortgage.. nothing happened because the banks didn't want to show the losses so they could drive up their stock prices. So the banks started showing PROFITS (because they weren't reporting their losses).. this drove up their stock prices. They then did secondary offerings to raise additional cash at the new inflated stock price and tricked people into giving them more stability. THEN they went after those people who weren't keeping up on their mortgages with a VENGEANCE, because it didn't matter anymore. They had stabilized their books, raked in their cash for the secondary offerings and could now fuck the consumer good and proper... and boy did they. Robo-signings and all.
WELL.. WHAT ELSE COULD WE HAVE DONE?!?! MY GOD THE WORLD WAS ENDING.
There was another solution but it favored the people.. those dirty rotten 99%ers who got us into this mess in the first place by buying houses they couldn't afford. Forget the fact that were lied to by banks and mortgage companies. I had an argument with a mortgage broker in 2006 when they were trying to talk me into upping my bid on a property to a number I wasn't comfortable with... They told me I could EASILY afford the payments on an 5 year interest only loan. I told them I wasn't comfortable with the payment in year 6. "Well, you just refinance at that time". They told me. Me being a highly educated person explained to them that you can only refinance if their is enough equity in the property. They told me, but real estate ALWAYS goes up, so you are guaranteed to be able to refinance. She believed it. That is what she was being told. Luckily, I remember a previous housing crash in the early 1990s and helping someone move out of a house they were abandoning b/c it was "upside down".
The government COULD have taken that exact same 700 Billion and PURCHASED the troubled assets, instead of leaving the banks in control of them. This would have kept more people in their homes and likely would have made the government MORE MONEY over the long run.
But, instead the banks got free cash and then the ability to cook their books and on top of it, got to kick those 99%ers out of their homes and sell them to new people for a nice profit!
So please.. go sell TARP somewhere else.
beedle
(1,235 posts)here's the proof.
http://tinyurl.com/jdek8y2
Who cares whether the money was buried in a hole somewhere or whether the banks held it in their vaults?
Mufaddal
(1,021 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)At least not for ordinary people who are being told that being screwed by the oligarchy is good for them and they have to pay for it.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)actions. It didn't save the American financial system, it allowed the bad actors to make a profit while ensuring they repeat their bad behavior.
karynnj
(59,503 posts)point.
There would have been two very big differences, the most significant was that in early 2004, Bush's SEC changed the leverage rate from 1:12 to 1:44 - this meant that the banks could engage in far more speculation. In addition, a Bernie SEC would have been much more likely to have raised a red flag on those mortgage based derivatives much earlier.
The second is that the Democrats tried in late 2007 to deal with the Foreclosure problem directly. One program that passed the Senate finance committee was written by Kerry and Gordon Smith (R, OR), but the Republicans acting for Bush removed it from the bill before the final vote. Oddly, had it passed and if it were able to slow the foreclosures, it COULD have prevented the entire problem. (ie the derivatives would not have failed spectacularly if the % or foreclosures had not become so high, which also led to massive lowering of the value of the homes in areas with the failures.)
Now, what if Bernie would have become President when Obama did. Tarp would already have passed under Bush. Bernie was FOR bailing out the auto industry and he had 58 Democrats (Spector was still a Republican and Franken not seated yet) It is very likely that the auto bailout would have been a stand alone bill. As to getting the TARP money tranche out - the President might have included provisions that WERE advocated by many Democrats to insure that the companies and individuals directly benefiting from TARP paid a share of the cost (ie they should not have been made "whole" or worst gotten huge bonuses as the industry recovered.)
As a Senator, Bernie could vote a protest vote - which he did - knowing that they had the votes to pass it.
NowSam
(1,252 posts)Choose wisely.
PyaarRevolution
(814 posts)that you're not a Republican.
It would've been good that the banks crashed because it wouldn't have been your skin in the grinder as it were. The FDIC insures your deposit up to $250K, $100K at that time I believe. The bankers would've ended up in a wash, boohoo.
Most Credit Unions did not crash during the banking crash. I believe only one did. I have my money in a Credit Union which is owned by the people who have money in it. Additionally they make more conservative investments so this type of nonsense doesn't happen.
Gothmog
(145,169 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)A clairvoyant in our midst.
Any predictions on when the end of the world will occur?
ebayfool
(3,411 posts)you lost your credibility pooky, waaay back there in the defense of fracking thread. If you look hard, you might - might! - find it and dust it off.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Bill that saved the auto industry
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)Zen Democrat
(5,901 posts)They were forced to take the money so that investors couldn't determine which banks were in trouble. Not all were.