Well Sanders supporters...name one wrong vote or policy that Sanders ever made or had?

[Chitown Kev]

Just one.

[JonLeibowitz]

1. In before the SOS confirmation joke.

Sorry.

[revbones]

2. As a Hillary supporter name one that Hillary made.

Hillary supporters tend to idolize her and ignore her stances (and the fluidity of those stances). Bernie supporters aren't hero worshiping and are striving for principles. So tell me something Hillary has done wrong in your eyes.

[NCTraveler]

6. IWR.

Their are obviously others as well. You did kind of back the op up by deflecting. I really don't mean that to be rude but it is exactly what happened.

Your turn.

[revbones]

18. One thing he did that I didn't like

Was try to be above calling Hillary out on her record until now. If you watch the first debates in Jan, he let her get away with a lot and tried to stick to the issues.

Fortunately he started correcting that in the last two debates.

[NCTraveler]

20. Good on you rev. lol

Did you hear he was a carpenter?

[angrychair]

25. Sorry, don't believe it

I have never seen written or heard a spoken word against HRC's IWR vote from a Clinton supporter.
Every HRC supporter I have ever met is very hawkish and pro-regime change.

[revbones]

27. Agreed.

[NCTraveler]

29. You are simply wrong.

I've called just about everything I can think of. Often as well.

[angrychair]

35. So, your telling me

You've been critical of her IWR vote before?
Her endorsement of Raygun and the Contras regime change in Nicaragua (mentioned in Miami debate)
Her insistence to a Syrian no fly zone even though it is strongly believed that it could provoke direct conflict between us and Russia (for me this is the single most important reason to question her foreign policy judgement, not IWR)

[Nonhlanhla]

75. I have criticized it

I have also contextualized it but I have criticized it more than once.

Now your turn.

[Chitown Kev]

8. LOL

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1498638/60216005#comment_60216005

[revbones]

14. Yes, you really got me there.

Posting an anti-Sanders post in a race with 2 candidates and then voting for O'Malley. Brilliant!

[Chitown Kev]

19. It was the best "none of the above" option available

Read the thread, I stated some of my reasons

[revbones]

30. Ugh, really? You expect me to go back over there and read some trite post you made

about voting for O'Malley? I'm not sure I really care enough.

[Chitown Kev]

32. No "none of the above" option was on my ballot

O'Malley is where I am at ideologically in an overwhelming number of areas

LGBT issues are most important to me.

OK...let's leave aside the fact that O'Malley, the person, was a doofus for quite a few reasons

[TM99]

37. Sanders and O'Malley show differences

when it comes to LGBT issues except that Sanders supported them longer.

But, of course, you thought O'Malley did better at NN when he said 'all lives matter'.

[Chitown Kev]

41. No, I thought that his recovery from that gaffe was a lot better

O'Malley apologized for the remark and I wound up watching his entire interview with Goldie Taylor.

Whereas Sanders just sort of a gruff "Don't you know who I am"...much as he did at the 2014 I/P town hall in Vermont.

"Gaffes" happen; everyone has them....I do look more closely at how people recover from gaffes rather than the gaffe itself, though

[bravenak]

52. Me too.

I thought OM did the best job with recovering. Like him.

[noretreatnosurrender]

47. Another Bait Thread

Now you want Sanders supporters to tell you how to attack our candidate? The tactics of the Clinton campaign get worse by the day.

[lovemydog]

78. The original poster has made it clear in this thread

that he's not with the Clinton campaign.

[litlbilly]

50. Iraq war., the bankruptcy bill, those two are enough for me

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

101. The list is far too long!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[virtualobserver]

3. voting to approve Hillary as Secretary of State?

[Arazi]

13. +1 eom

[G_j]

43. #1

[Silver_Witch]

73. That is totally a good one Virtualobserver

Feminist for Bernie

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

102. I would say I have to agree... Hillary was a disaster as SoS.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[noiretextatique]

4. Why don't you? Since you are so objective and neutral

Name it.

[bravenak]

5. All of his votes are the best votes possible and we need to appreciate that.

[JonLeibowitz]

7. Serious answer: I would have voted for TARP (but not because of the fake issue of auto bailout)

The country's financial system was on the brink and while a distasteful and repugnant vote it would have been, I also know that it was our best option to restore confidence in our credit markets. I think he should have put the country before principle.

[Chitown Kev]

16. TARP...well, there were other Dems that voted no

Maria Cantwell, Russ Feingold, here's the Roll Call

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00212

Sanders didn't sink TARP so that's OK by me, actually.

[JonLeibowitz]

26. Yeah, he gets a pass because it was certain to pass as do the others.

But there's something to be said for casting every vote as if it were the deciding one. I'm not sure what I would have done, because I have a rebellious streak in me, but it is conceivable that that is a weak vote.

[Vattel]

9. His vote for PLCAA was a bad one IMHO. The courts are better off without most tort reform.

His votes funding the Iraq War were also wrong. I don't believe in funding immoral wars.

[angrychair]

10. Why???

Name one wrong Clinton stance or vote and why it's wrong.
At least my candidate doesn't endorse regime change and Ronnie Raygun and the Contras
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=142903

[Arazi]

11. Sure, his vote for the CFMA in 2000 was a mistake

Commodity Futures Modernization Act in 2000, which eased regulations on Wall Street, arguably paved the way for the credit default swaps that sank the economy in the Great Recession.

Passed 377 to 4 and of course President Bill Clinton signed it but hey, hindsight is 20/20

[Cheese Sandwich]

12. f-35

[cyberswede]

15. I'm not crazy about his stance on guns

Thought I understand it, given his home state.

[Dems to Win]

17. Brady Bill, Afghan War

My ideal candidate would have been Rep. Barbara Lee. Sadly, she didn't run.

Bernie's not perfect, but I strongly support his $27 average contribution method of campaign financing. He will be beholden to ordinary Americans, no one else, if he becomes President. Because of this, there's no possibility I'll vote for anyone else in June.

[djean111]

21. None of Sanders' votes makes Hillary a more desirable candidate to those of us who hate

war, fracking, the TPP, cluster bombs, increased H-1B visas, sending children back to die in order to make a point, etc.
So I don't really see your objective here. Yawn. And shrug. g'nite!

[TM99]

22. How about three?

1) F-35 -- I know it supports his state and that is what state Senators do, support their home states, but it is another too damned expensive military project without much success.

2) CFMA -- I wish he had been more aware of what was being slipped in.

3) The Afghan War -- He was right to want to get the actual 9/11 perpetrators but wrong to trust that this wouldn't be expanded as it was. He got the Iraq War vote right though and has spoken out since quite correctly on all other PNAC ME excursions.

So Kev, how about you share some of the ones you don't support of Clinton's.

[Chitown Kev]

28. Read post #8 above

[TM99]

39. So another shit stirring post?

You vote for O'Malley and offer support to Clinton by posting attacks on Sanders and his supporters.

Why am I not surprised. Let me guess, you are buddies with Bravenak?

[Chitown Kev]

46. I offer support for Clinton?

Really?

[bravenak]

53. Why is any of this somehow my fault?

Dang.

[lovemydog]

88. I know right.

I mean that's just weird.

[Chitown Kev]

89. as if I don't have a mind of my own

[lovemydog]

90. Yup. In some of the other posts on this thread,

not all of them of course, it seems people have a lot of other stuff on the brain rather than answering a sincere question. It feels like bizarro world.

[TM99]

60. Stop linking to DKos

I am not going over there to read your 'diaries'.

You give indirect support here constantly for Clinton by your baseless attacks on Sanders.

[Chitown Kev]

63. First of all

the only thing I have to do is to stay black and die...

Second of all, my record and conscience is quite clear; what other people think of these "baseless attacks" (as you call them) is none of my business, I don't owe Bernie Sanders jack shit.

Third, I have been critical of both Sanders and Clinton. I'm primarily angry at the DNC, though.

[TM99]

83. I am bi-racial

so you can lay off the victim card with me.

Bully for you. I am so glad you feel you don't owe Sanders jack shit. We don't owe you jack shit either.

I have seen about 15 to 1 posts from you critical of Sanders versus Clinton. Given that Sanders stands in stark contrast with the DNC, it is rather surprising that your anger at the DNC does not point more criticisms towards Clinton instead.

But at this point, like a few others, it is now time to put you on ignore. You have nothing to share that is of any value to me further. Good luck with your choices.

[Chitown Kev]

87. Huh?

Sanders stands in stark contrast with the DNC

Sanders consented to this process...he's not in "stark contrast" to it at all.

[lovemydog]

79. Speaking for myself, when I ask questions it's because I'm vetting the candidate.

I don't vote until June and I'm still undecided. I've found the Clinton supporters here a lot friendlier and less dogmatic than the Sanders supporters. They can agree to disagree and still be friendly. I'm still open to Sanders now, in fact I'm leaning toward voting for him. I'm a very deliberate type of person. I like to look at all the positives and negatives before I cast my vote.

When I'm leaning toward voting for someone I look at a lot of factors, including his supporters. For example, those who support Trump obviously are a loud ignorant and racist lot. I wouldn't vote for that narcissistic asshole in a million years even if he appeared like a super cool nice guy. The main misgivings I have about voting for Sanders has to do with their bullying cliquish behavior in which even the slightest criticisms of him are met with overreaction that appear like nuclear meltdowns. And denial that he's anything but perfect. No one is perfect.

The above post is in no way meant to be construed as endorsing either of the remaining candidates in the primaries. And I will definitely vote in November.

I hope that clears things up a bit for you, purely based on my perspective of things.

[TM99]

81. Whatever.

Seriously, if you think Clinton supporters are friendlier and less dogmatic, I have beach front property in Arizona to sell you. The only bullies on this site are Clinton supporters. It is a damned shame that you can't see it.

But thanks for sharing something that I literally had zero interest in you clearing up for me.

[lovemydog]

82. Oh, is this site all about you?

[TM99]

84. Never said it was.

Bye.

[lovemydog]

85. ^ ah, no wonder

you have that view of this site.

[Persondem]

23. Heresy!! It's heresy I tell you!! St. Bernie can do no wrong.

[Bjorn Against]

24. I think he was wrong to vote for the authorization of military force after 9/11

Barbara Lee was the only member of congress who got that vote right, the war in Afghanistan has been a disaster that has done nothing to make our country safer.

[Chitown Kev]

31. Was Sanders wrong at that time, though?

Sanders has never been a pacifist and he had voted for the airstrikes in Kosovo....so the AUMF would seem to be consistent...

[Bjorn Against]

33. Yes, he was wrong at the time

I opposed the war in Afghanistan from the beginning, it was a very unpopular position at the time but I think the disaster we have seen in Afghanistan proves that we should have never gone in there. I think that overall Sanders has a very strong voting record, but he does have a few votes I disagree with and the vote to authorize war in Afghanistan is the vote I would single out as my biggest disappointment with him.

[lovemydog]

94. That's an excellent explanation.

I too feel Barbara Lee got it right on that vote.

[Chitown Kev]

95. With Afghanistan

Go in there, get Bin Laden, and get the fuck out...that should have been the extent of that mission.

With proper intelligence, that might have been something that Special Forces could have accomplished. No way should Bin Laden have made it out of Tora Bora.

[lovemydog]

96. Very good point.

A quick stealth operation. Boom. In and out. It's tragic to me when our country's foreign policy involves all this spending and other things behind the scenes. It seems more in tune with regime change than with accomplishing the publicly stated mission. We spend too much on the military industrial complex, in my opinion. That money should be spent here at home improving our infrastructure and assisting people who can't find work and a whole host of other things.

[TTUBatfan2008]

34. F-35

Over $1 trillion down the tubes. Classic example of pork barrel. Exactly the kind of thing we need to stop. Bernie's hands are dirty on that one.

[cannabis_flower]

36. Why should we?

You are the one who is against him. You tell us. We will decide if we agree. That's the way it works. Why should we run down our own candidate and why should we go hunting for votes we don't agree with if we agree with everything we've heard about him so far?

[HassleCat]

38. The deal to deposit nuke waste in Texas.

That was what we call environmental racism. Other than that, there isn't much. Clinton supporters are still trying to float that nonsense about the auto industry bailout. The latest thing now is some confusing amendment to some Militiaman stuff. As Clinton supporters are so fond of pointing out, Clinton and Sanders voted the same 93 percent of the time.

[merrily]

44. No. Someone did a great thread on it.

[Chitown Kev]

51. I saw the Congressional debates on this...

It wasn't the vote itself that ticks me off, it was the fact that Sanders did not acknowledge the concerns of the people of Sierra Blanca, as expressed through their elected representatives

The Militiamen amendment...well that's not a major thing until you put together the 2006 immigration bill, Sierra Blanca, and that amendment...it sounds as if Sanders was keeping an eye on that Senate election of his in 2006.

It's a ding on his record but not much more than that.

[Bluenorthwest]

99. If you are concerned with the people of Sierra Blanca, know that no nuclear waste ever went there

although they were very actively in the dumping business there for many years. Sierra Blanca Texas was the location of one of the largest sludge dumps in the country, and the City of New York used Sierra Blanca as sewage disposal dump.

Take a tour here:
This week the Texas Toxic Tour takes us to Sierra Blanca Texas, home to the nation's largest sewage sludge dump. The story examines how Sierra Blanca, a small town on the U.S./Mexico border, became the resting place for New York City's sewage. The video interview includes a meeting with several local residents concerned with unusual health problems. Additionally, this segment will focus on how the TNRCC ignored local health concerns and illegal dumping to support tripling New York's waste being dumped in the Lonestar State.
http://www.txpeer.org/toxictour/merco.html

New York Times here:
It is hard to imagine places more different than New York and Sierra Blanca, and the contrast has always underscored the mercenary marriage between the nation's largest city and the small town where it has dumped its sewage since 1992. That year, after Congress had prohibited the city from dumping its sludge in the Atlantic Ocean, New York signed contracts with several companies to treat and transport its sewage. One of them was a Long Island joint venture, which began shipping up to 250 tons every day on the 2,065-mile journey to West Texas. The Texas Observer, the political journal, recently called it ''the poo-poo choo-choo.''

The Long Island company, Merco, had first sought a site in Oklahoma, but after meeting resistance there learned about a failed resort called the Mile High Ranch in Sierra Blanca. The company purchased the 81,000-acre area so that the treated sludge could be spread on ''application areas'' as if it were fertilizer. The company rotates the areas of land chosen to absorb the sludge.

Environmentalists and critics immediately accused Texas officials of ramming the project through approval. They have long argued that the sludge has exposed the area to health risks and other problems. Texas Tech University has studied the project and has found no evidence of contamination."
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/27/us/new-york-s-sewage-was-a-texas-town-s-gold.html

Also, just for extra fun, here is the 2008 version of this 'Dumping Nukes on the Poor' smear, aimed at Obama by Dolores Huerta:
"One of the things that, you know, they keep talking about, the progressive candidates, you know, Hillary Clinton voted against the nuclear waste dumping in Yucca Mountain in Nevada, while on the other hand Barack Obama actually took money from the company that was creating the nuclear waste and wanted to dump it in Nevada."
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/1/democratic_presidential_nomination_could_hinge_on

He took money!

[Chitown Kev]

103. I know the Sierra Blanca story

As I stated, my objection there was the totally arrogant way in which Sanders went about it when he spoke in Congress and to activists.

[joshcryer]

40. His position on drones.

[Chitown Kev]

66. Drones...when my former Senator was campaigning in 2008

Last edited Fri Mar 11, 2016, 04:49 AM - Edit history (1)

I heard what he said about Afghanistan and Pakistan...and I was always puzzled why people blasted him for that when...he said he would do it.

From what I have read about the drones that they use, I think that they are inhumane and sort of a cheap way not to do other things like "airstrikes"

I doubt that a presidential candidate could actually say that they won't use drones and get elected at the same time, nowadays.

[joshcryer]

69. Yeah, unfortunately drones poll high.

American's don't like what happened in Mogadishu (Black Hawk Down), though I must give props to Obama where he has employed special forces increasingly which I think is a much better alternative to indiscriminate drones. Obama still uses them too much though. But getting Bin Laden and the few rescues he's done have been impressive shows of courage (Clinton famously did nothing about Rwanda because of Mogadishu).

[merrily]

42. Afganistan - yooge

[noretreatnosurrender]

45. Find it yourselves

Do you really think we are going to provide you with ammunition to attack the Sanders campaign.

[cherokeeprogressive]

48. Why.

[Arazi]

49. So you've gotten more than a dozen real responses in @ 45 min

with real answers

Was this what you expected? I guess I'm not sure what you wanted from this thread

[noretreatnosurrender]

54. It's pretty obvious

what Chitown Kev wanted from the thread.

[Chitown Kev]

58. I pretty much got what I wanted

Some things I agree with some I disagree with.

I do get tired of the "what about Hillary, tho" posts...I have my own reasons for not voting for her that I have detailed to an extent.

Honestly...I wanted to vote for Bernie and I think he is trying to take the party in the right direction but, in some ways, I don't like the way he is doing it.

[Arazi]

61. We're not following a cult of personality

regardless of how we're frequently painted as doing so elsewhere.

Some? Most? All? of us have to weigh the good v the bad

You only asked for 1 thing we found problematic but I'd also add the Afghan war vote and the F-35 support to my list

[Chitown Kev]

64. "A cult of personality?"

I think that varying degrees of that are unavoidable

After all, it is VERY hard to vote for someone that you don't like even if you agree with them ideologically.

[Arazi]

65. I've voted for plenty I don't particularly like, primarily Bill Clinton

thank you for a respectful conversation. I'm heading to bed

[Ed Suspicious]

55. You first. Go.

[John Poet]

56. Sanders was WRONG when he voted

to confirm Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511464756


'You're welcome' in advance! Glad to help!

[Ken Burch]

57. I'd rather he hadn't supported the F-35.

But that vote was trivial compared to the IWR.

Nobody claims Bernie is perfect.

Just trustworthy.

[Chitown Kev]

62. I do think he is trustworthy...for the most part (more than most other politicians)

I do question his priorities.

I also think that Sanders has way to many "big ticket" policies. I'd rather him pick one or maybe two policies to "go big" on.

Which was kind of O'Malley's approach actually...

[thesquanderer]

97. re: "too many 'big ticket' policies. I'd rather him pick one or maybe two"

According to Hillary, he only has one issue, Wall Street. There is some irony in hearing him criticized for having too many big focuses in his platform, when his opponent is saying he has too few.

In terms of rhetoric, I'd say he has three big issues... Wall Street (which is common-speak for combatting oligarchy), health care (i.e. medicare for all), and education (i.e. free public college).

I understand you question his priorities, and he certainly talks about many other things as well (climate change, infrastructure, civil rights, etc.) but when there are so many big, important things to deal with, no matter which on or two or three things he chose to focus on, there's no way everyone will agree that those were the perfect ones to choose to "go big" on. I'd say it's tough to even get it down to three, and you wish it were fewer!

[imagine2015]

59. Bernie and Clinton voted for huge military budgets.

[lovemydog]

80. Yes, and personally I don't like that about either of them.

[mikehiggins]

67. That bill sort of protecting gun manufacturers. n/t

[AgerolanAmerican]

68. Don't care

Sanders could be Satan incarnate and I'd still prefer him, simply because he's not working for the enemies of the people and his opponents are.

[Chitown Kev]

70. Well, who are "the people"?

At the present time, Hillary Clinton has considerably more votes than Bernie Sanders, for one.

And actual Democrats strongly prefer Clinton to Sanders...one of the big reasons that sanders will get blown out in Florida is not because it's "southern" but because its'' a closed primary.

[AgerolanAmerican]

71. The 99% of us who get shit on by the corporate oligarchy

We're still here and they haven't killed us off yet, inconvenient as our existence may be to them.

We'll see who actual Democrats actually prefer. After Michigan, polls are clearly not a valid indicator of popular sentiment.

[Chitown Kev]

72. I never said that polls were an indicator

at the moment, Clinton has more votes and has won more contests.

[AgerolanAmerican]

74. as of this moment

the bulk of the nation has yet to vote, and the states where Clinton does best are behind us

Sanders will be the nominee. Time will come soon for everyone to rally behind him.

[bobbobbins01]

76. Why do I feel like this is Hillary collecting info for the next debate?

The mud she's slinging hasn't stuck so she needs new material.

Its already been said here, but the Brady Bill. Gun control isn't exactly one of my priorities though and I think we need to look at the underlying causes here in America. But I think in general gun control is a good thing and Bernie probably should have voted yes in this case.

[Chitown Kev]

77. You know what I would settle for with Bernie...

Past votes are past votes, and we can debate those because they are important...

Patrick Leahy and Susan Collins did a little something last month and proposed a bill about straw gun purchasing

https://vtdigger.org/2016/02/12/leahy-unveil-bipartisan-legislation-to-combat-illegal-straw-purchasing-and-firearms-trafficking/

Like all other gun legislation, it just goes nowhere.

FTR, I don't think all that much about gun control either

[lovemydog]

86. For Sanders: not voting for the immigration reform bill.

For Clinton: voting for the Iraq War Resolution.

[mhatrw]

91. Voted for Bill Clinton's heinous crime bill.

Voted for the Afghanistan invasion.

Tricked by Bill Clinton into voting for Wall St. deregulation (CFMA).

Nobody's perfect.

[Chitown Kev]

92. The only reason I somewhat hold

the crime bill vote against Sanders is because of the speeches that he gave about incarceration prior to voting yes.

Yes, the VAWA and the assault weapons ban was part of the "good stuff" in the crime bill package but given his opinions about the incarceration aspects and the death penalty aspects...I'll just say that seeing those videos that everyone plays really turns me off.

However, I do keep in mind that many others voted for that bill, including a majority of the Congressional Black Caucus...it's complicated.

For me, it has to be the Wall Street deregulation bill...I mean, that issue is Sanders' "bread and butter".

But...these votes on these things are tough, a lot of times.

[mhatrw]

105. The Wall Street deregulation bill was snuck in.

I think that was a case of legislative incompetence on Sanders' part. He simply went along with 97% of Congress and did not realize exactly what he was voting for.

The crime bill may have been political cowardice. At that point, everybody was afraid to be called soft on crime.

But his two worst votes were at Bill Clinton's behest. So it is a little weird for Hillary to attack him on these votes.

[highprincipleswork]

93. I'm more interested in what he's done right and what he stands for. That's why I support him.

Do your own muckraking, if that's what turns it on for you.

I don't expect him to be perfect, by the way. Just know that he is a more solid representative of what I believe in than any other option at the moment. And a damn good representative at that.

[Bluenorthwest]

98. I pushed hard against the Crime Bill, was not pleased with insertion of the Violence Against Women

Act which Bernie and others saw as reason to vote for the Bill. I strongly objected to that same vote out of Biden, Kerry, Boxer, Feinstein, Kennedy and every Democratic Senator but two. I objected to the yes votes of 2/3 of the Congressional Black Caucus, and their very strong influence on other members. I objected to Bernie, in specific and in detail.

Of course to be fair, Hillary was pushing hard for the Crime Bill and promoted it before and after the fact, praised it for years after. Bill of course was initiator and signer of the legislation. So on that one, Bernie was wrong, Hillary was wrong, as electoral issue it's a wash at best unless we look at the rhetoric in the following years, then Hillary takes the Crime Bill Blame Cake. We can skip those years and just call it a wash if you want to.

I put that next to the IWR yes vote and her stated reasons for that vote and it's not even closes to a wash. Add the Patriot Act, her DOMA touting and equality opposing and the column lines up quickly against Sec Clinton. Sorry.

[Armstead]

100. His alliance with the Koch Brothers

[Mufaddal]

104. 1994 crime bill

Yes, he slammed it repeatedly on the floor, and I understand his reasoning behind the vote (included pieces of legislation), but to this day I'm still pissed about it.

There are others, but they pale in comparison to that one.

[VulgarPoet]

106. 1994 crime bill

Support for the F-35, and the nuclear issue.

That's the only gripes I have with him, and a damn sight less than my issues with Hillary.