2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie: Effort under way right now by HRC and party allies to steal Polk County Iowa convention
https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/708789694117445632
https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/708792355076177920
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Appears to confirm what DUer CoffeeCat has been reporting today. I hope she will report back when she can recharge her phone. CoffeeCat also has videos.
Response to JonLeibowitz (Original post)
Post removed
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)greiner3
(5,214 posts)If they know it exists; dead give away IMO
BTW NWCorona, this is to the hidden and I figured, meh
DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)district meetings and state conventions and never heard the expression. Do you give volunteer time to the party ?
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)So we should proceed as if I could be PBO. In the end, who I am is unimportant.
As mentioned below, having to be at a convention for more than 10.5 hours while enduring endless recounts can present a conflict for those who have jobs with shifts on the weekend -- working class people
Duval
(4,280 posts)Blue Idaho
(5,057 posts)They are long drawn out affairs - like it or not. They are cheap to run compared to a voting primary, but far less than ideal for all the reasons mentioned. Add to that the fact that in this state, any additions or losses now could be completely reversed at the state convention. All the voting representatives have to do is sign a statement saying they will be changing their vote prior to the business of the state convention beginning.
SCantiGOP
(13,874 posts)If it's on Twitter it has to be true.
Well - there's much truth in that statement!
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)IllinoisLabour
(86 posts)and can't sit around being recounted and recounted and recounted going on 10.5 hours now.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)Is this a district convention?
IllinoisLabour
(86 posts)emmadoggy
(2,142 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)....things like this happen during many conventions - republican or Democratic, regardless of the political preference of the delegates.
They weren't recounting just Sanders delegates, they were recounting ALL delegates. And I'm sure some Clinton delegates had to go to work, too. We don't hear any of them complaining, they just know how it works.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Hillary's campaign made everyone stay to keep recounting.
.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/4a5ajl/iowapolk_county_convention_hillary_supporters_are/
https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/4a5lnm/i_was_a_county_delegate_for_sanders_in_iowa_today/
renate
(13,776 posts)"UPDATE 7 - 5:43pm. The room overwhelmingly voted in favor of demanding the resignation of the Clinton county chair, secretary, etc."
Uglystick
(88 posts)and then set to move to remove Clinton delegates for violating Iowa election laws.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Are delegates selected at the caucuses changing their minds? If so, are these people not bound to at all?
emmadoggy
(2,142 posts)bound to stick with the original candidate they were chosen for. They are allowed to switch.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)To vote against your pledge is dishonest. One is misrepresenting one's neighbors by switching candidates. O'Malley's delegates are free to realign as he dropped out, but it is dishonest for either Clinton or Sanders delegates to switch their votes.
Basically, at the local level, after deciding the number of delegates for each candidate, people are elected (more often cajoled) to represent a portion of the neighbors at the next level and vote for the candidate they are pledged to.
The story here is faithless delegates, not the Democratic Party trying to make the system representative of the caucus votes.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)And bullshit like it
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I thought Iowa had their votes in weeks ago.
I know it is awful to be uniformed, but I want more information more than I prefer to remain stupid.
Could someone explain this to me?
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)It goes precinct convention->district/county convention->state convention, from what I know. This is the district convention.
Blue Idaho
(5,057 posts)Can be reversed at the state convention.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)I had several people laugh me off. Um I'm in Iowa, this ain't the first time and it won't be the last time
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)Hillary supporters cheated at the Caucus level handing out the wrong sheets so naturally this is Bernie supporters only recourse , as in it's clear there were more Bernie supporters at the Caucus.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)why I ever wanted to follow politics in the first place?
I desperately need to go back to the days when I was happily debating Linux kernels and video cards.
Ivan Kaputski
(528 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)Sound drivers!
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Patrick Volkerding is a neanderthal dinosaur
jeff47
(26,549 posts)JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)(Yes, I know it has since been released; gosh I miss /. jokes)
Aerows
(39,961 posts)And the fact that you are unaware that it was released illustrates that it was one of the most horrible games since Daikatana.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)and D3D, but 4ever was a turd in the punchbowl.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)And Code Red.
And enough fuckery that I think I am impervious to being shocked.
I must interject that you rock, Jeff. We've mixed up enough times that I can only regard you with respect, cher.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)actually someone turned me on to Linux in 2006 , and just now got an arduino , much rather be doing that than this. Figure I'm retiring from this stress BS after this year...
Aerows
(39,961 posts)what is becoming a big batch of nothing called our government.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)The county level numbers should reflect the local caucus numbers to within rounding errors. If Sanders supporters did not know what they were doing and pledged to be Clinton delegates on caucus night, switching at the county level is their dishonesty, not the candidate that they abandoned. They are not "bound", but they are pledging to vote for a candidate.
Changing their vote from their pledge makes them a faithless delegate.
I tend to trust the local caucus totals more than I trust biased people whining about the results. If there were problems at the caucus, the place to address is at the local level, rather than making a faithless pledge.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)and
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1479983
But you be sure to have a wonderful day.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)If one wants to, one can show up, fill out a ballot and leave. The main event is over. The number of delegates for each candidate is apportioned from that poll - the calculations are somewhat arcane, but the end result is each viable candidate gets a number of delegates from that precinct. Plain, simple and official.
After that, people who wish to represent their neighbors at the next level run to become the delegates, if there are enough that desire to do so. More often than not, the precinct chair(s) are begging people to be delegates. One has to give up at least part of a day and travel to the convention, with no compensation other than fulfilling civic duty. When you become a delegate, you are pledging to vote for the candidate that delegate spot is apportioned to. That's the key point here - a delegate represents their neighbor's votes, not their own. If you don't understand the process, offer to become a delegate and don't pay attention to which delegate you are pledged to, the end result is the Polk County convention.
People have said that there were 9 delegates who thought their pledge was misrecorded. That isn't possible, unless there was election fraud at multiple local precincts. So unless one wants to posit that fraud was occurring at up to 9 precincts, what happened is that 9 people either didn't understand they were pledging to vote for Clinton or they deliberately misrepresented themselves and said they would vote for Clinton and then didn't.
Delegates are pledged, but not bound, to a candidate. That is in place for when a candidate drops out of the race before the convention or there are major developments during the campaign. It is not there for faithless delegates to flip their neighbors votes to the other candidate.
What is totally ridiculous is claiming that Clinton somehow cheated. What happened was decidedly not to her advantage.
There is another part to the caucus, drafting platform planks, that wouldn't work in a primary election, but that is not relevant to what happened in Polk County, Iowa.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)Because I first wanted to bask in the glory that someone else on the planet was feeling as confused as I was. Why is it that these minor details can just "crop up" at the worst of times?
Color me all the beautiful colors of ignorance. The solution is to ask questions. Thanks for asking!
Now I hope to read the answer. Thanks, Aerows!
I just read the "answers". I'm going to take 20mg of Valium and take a long nap.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Several people have interjected comments, but I am no more clued in than I was when I asked.
Sweet dreams!
Hydra
(14,459 posts)So they just fought it until they won.
I guess this is good practice for Bernie- I don't think the Repubs can Clinton's this level of dirty fighting.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)and they can chop your head off. She's called Bernie the ultimate Dictator
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)AzDar
(14,023 posts)Duval
(4,280 posts)This is criminal. Did anyone let the media know? Well, with our MSM promoting either Trump or Hillary, I guess that's a worthless idea.
I wish I were there to help CoffeeCat and the others. I'm so angry about this. No, I don't want Trump or any Republican to win, but how the hell can I feel good about voting for a dirty trickster who also lies.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)PatrickforO
(14,592 posts)xloadiex
(628 posts)Metric System
(6,048 posts)won 53.2% in Polk, Bernie 46.2%.
https://twitter.com/desmoinesdem/status/708810735690784768
And Sanders supporters are complaining?
ellennelle
(614 posts)the %s you list were the statewide %s.
the dispute today was polk cty.
it was a total nightmare; that's what the complaining is about.
All in it together
(275 posts)The income levels of Polk County residents averages higher than most of the state, hence swinging more Hillary.
Statewide it was Hillary 49.6 to Bernie 49.3%
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)The memes really need to be checked for internal consistency, people are starting to notice.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)What we learned today is that that was not the case, and many delegates were mistakenly labeled as HRC when they supported Bernie.
So yes, we are fighting for every vote to be counted.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Lucinda
(31,170 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)LiberalArkie
(15,729 posts)County Convention Update self.IowaForSanders
submitted 4 hours ago * by Lex-Loci
I'm sitting at the Polk County convention right now. Before we broke for lunch it was:
Sanders 532
Clinton 519
O'Malley 8
I can't find what the original delegate split was but Clinton had the popular vote here with 53% to 47% and we are turning that around.
Right now the rules committee has adjurned. We believe it's because our "unassigned" delegates are being challenged. I'm not sure where the numbers will land but while we are waiting for a verdict I thought I'd check in to see how the other counties are going?
Update: 2:30 - Some of Sander's delegates had been reported for Clinton. The Clinton Camp appears to be trying to sort through that. We have had a report of 12 delegates switching to Sanders. This doesn't appear to cover that but instead account for the inaccurate count they started with.
3:45 - it was announced that posts are circulating on fb telling people it's ok to leave. The tally is in but has not been confirmed so we may have to be counted again. Current count for Clinton is 333. I have not heard a number for Sanders but a rough estimate has us over 500 still.
I'll keep providing updates until my phone dies.
4:10 after a recount. Before realignment:
Sanders 513
Clinton 529
We know we have 9 people from Clinton that realigned to us. These are believed to be people that were supposed to be for Sanders but were misrepresented as Clinton delegates. As well as 2 of the O'Malley people.
This is an emotional Rollercoaster guys.
4:50 They're calling the final Sanders count at 503. No report on Clinton yet. We are being told that there can not be another recount but we are resolved to stay put just in case.
5:30 Clinton's final count is 511. The delegate total will be split 114 to 114.
There are a lot of people here who are extremely frustrated. The democratic party has certainly lost voters today.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)malletgirl02
(1,523 posts)destroying the Democratic Party. If Clinton supports succeed in taking these votes from Sanders then this will destroy the party.
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)What a corrupt, disenfranchising system that marginalizes the vast majority of voters. It's set up for political shenanigans. After the Hillary supporters won round 1, the Sanders people thought they found a way to take round 2, but the Hillary supporters fought back and secured a draw. Everything done was aboveboard within the context of the caucus system. The problem is not with the candidates. It's with the system.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)caucus night results were misreported, and many Bernie delegates were mislabeled as Clinton delegates. When the Bernie supporters showed up today, obviously, things shifted. Hillary never "won round 1" in the first place, and now they have succeeded in fighting Bernie to a draw in round 2.
Old Crow
(2,212 posts)Onlooker
(5,636 posts)Caucuses are a terrible, terrible system that are arrogant and exclusive. In a close election the loser almost always accuses the winner of something, but really who knows. Neither the Sanders people nor the Clinton people are stupid. They are both playing the game, and where caucuses are the game is more aggressive.
Blue Idaho
(5,057 posts)Elections are more expensive but far less likely to be gamed.
ellennelle
(614 posts)kill the caucuses!
still_one
(92,422 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)When people behave according to the rules, caucuses work fine. When first time voters stomp through the process without knowing what they are doing, problems occur with either system.
still_one
(92,422 posts)discriminates against anyone who is not physically able or cannot be there in person
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)....in her own party. Shame.
840high
(17,196 posts)instant gratification.
Hoppy
(3,595 posts)jhart3333
(332 posts)AzDar
(14,023 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)zentrum
(9,865 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,426 posts)party officials weren't satisfied but failed to state a reason why.
Both Bernie and Hillary supporters agreed to the fifth vote which put Bernie on top, but the county party officials are trying to disenfranchise Bernie supporters that are workers and motivate them to leave.
http://www.kcci.com/news/supporters-leave-county-democratic-convention-in-frustration/38484946
Thanks for the thread, JonLeibowitz
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)I assume that is why they kept revoting.
Polk County
Democratic
100% Reporting
H. Clinton 53.2% 12,122
B. Sanders 46.2% 10,526
M. O'Malley 0.7% 152
Other 0.0% 0
Uncommitted 0.0% 0
Read more: http://www.politico.com/2016-election/results/map/president/iowa#ixzz42kIk1lME
Uncle Joe
(58,426 posts)Clinton voter fraud in Polk County, Iowa Caucus Caucus chair and Clinton precinct captain do not conduct actual count of Clinton supporters and deliberately mislead caucus
http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4578575/clinton-voter-fraud-polk-county-iowa-caucus
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,426 posts)Editorial: Something smells in the Democratic Party
(snip)
First of all, the results were too close not to do a complete audit of results. Two-tenths of 1 percent separated Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton. A caucus should not be confused with an election, but its worth noting that much larger margins trigger automatic recounts in other states.
Second, too many questions have been raised. Too many accounts have arisen of inconsistent counts, untrained and overwhelmed volunteers, confused voters, cramped precinct locations, a lack of voter registration forms and other problems. Too many of us, including members of the Register editorial board who were observing caucuses, saw opportunities for error amid Monday nights chaos.
(snip)
Dr. Andy McGuire, chairwoman of the Iowa Democratic Party, dug in her heels and said no. She said the three campaigns had representatives in a room in the hours after the caucuses and went over the discrepancies.
McGuire knows whats at stake. Her actions only confirm the suspicions, wild as they might be, of Sanders supporters. Their candidate, after all, is opposed by the party establishment and wasnt even a Democrat a few months ago.
So her path forward is clear: Work with all the campaigns to audit results. Break silly party tradition and release the raw vote totals. Provide a list of each precinct coin flip and its outcome, as well as other information sought by the Register. Be transparent.
(snip)
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/editorials/caucus/2016/02/03/editorial-something-smells-democratic-party/79777580/
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)The article I linked states that the voters were given the option for a recount and the majority declined
Uncle Joe
(58,426 posts)discrepancies; whether real or imagined, do you believe an audit should have been held?
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)final tally of the county. I don't think that result should be subverted.
Uncle Joe
(58,426 posts)Lucinda
(31,170 posts)Did people become delegates so they could change the results? Did Hillary supporters not show up, or suddenly decide to change their votes?
I don't know the people, so I have no idea why. But if people accept the role of standing for voters, I think they should do just that, no matter who would have been the winner of the county.
40RatRod
(532 posts)Please try sticking to the facts. There are enough conspiracies theories going around DU already. Guessing or taking a single individual's claim as a fact only gets others all excited and worked up for no reason. IMHO.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)warrprayer
(4,734 posts)For exposure!
TheFarseer
(9,326 posts)I thought the caucus was a month ago?
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Goodnight.
I am totally disgusted by this. Can we get some honest elections in this damn country?
George II
(67,782 posts).....were being checked by officials.
No "fraud", and no bona fide delegates were disenfranchised.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)...despite there being no provision for such procedures? Nope. It does not.
I find your explanation wanting.
George II
(67,782 posts)mhatrw
(10,786 posts)of everything, and then did everything in their power to rig the count.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)--I certainly hope the story of this recount comes out in some journalistic write-up.
I want to read about this....!