2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumVoting, including in the Democratic Primary, is a privilege and not a right.
That is my position. I believe many feel as I do. I believe my thoughts to be based in the realities of society. The argument itself is based on the blurring of the two words Rights/Privilege and the time honored tradition of voter suppression.
States Deny Millions Of Ex-Felons Voting Rights
Eric Bates was caught twice in the late 1990s driving with a suspended license, and then again in 2006. That third time, under then-Virginia law, Bates was considered a habitual offender and was prosecuted as a felon.
He served 14 months in prison and was released in 2008. He returned home hoping to put his legal issues behind him and move on with his life.
But like many of the nearly 1 million people who are released from correctional facilities each year, Bates said he has had difficulty finding steady work and making ends meet. His rather pedestrian criminal record has also come with one other lingering consequence: Bates has found himself among the approximately 5.8 million whose voting rights have been taken away because of a felony conviction.
“I owned up to my crime. I served my time and I just want my rights back,” Bates, 53, an unemployed electrical engineer, told The Huffington Post. “I want to participate. But it’s just as well as if I murdered somebody. It’s a life sentence.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/08/felon-voting-rights_n_1924535.html
I do understand my argument here is conceptual, not legal. Under universal health care and the argument healthcare is a right, of which I agree; who do you think should be denied access to that right as is being done with felons and voting?
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RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)The Constitution mentions the "right to vote" five times.
Knot enuff four yew?
Pssst! Check out the 14th, 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th Amendments.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)And no, the number of times it is mentioned is not enough for me. Would you like some images of what is considered a "well regulated militia"?
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)
Skid Rogue
(711 posts)List of famous people who couldn't spell (Including Jane Austin and Einstein).
http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com/2012/01/24/15-famous-thinkers-who-couldnt-spell/
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)
I admit that the spelling remark was a cheap shot. In fact, "Some of my best friends are poor spellers." I was annoyed primarily by the flawed interpretation of the Constitution. As your link proves, poor spelling is not necessarily an indication of the strength of one's intellect.
Piece!
Skid Rogue
(711 posts)RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)In fact, my mother tells me that had I been born with two X chromosomes instead of an X and a Y, I would've been named Emma.
So, clearly, I have at least one Austen fan in the family.
Skid Rogue
(711 posts)XY? I would have been named Frederick Otto! With a name like that, in Alabama, there's a distinct possibly that I would have been a Trump supporter. 
On that note, here's a marx brothers quote:
One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas, I don't know. Then we tried to remove the tusks. The tusks. That's not so easy to say. Tusks. You try it some time. As I say, we tried to remove the tusks. But they were embedded so firmly we couldn't budge them. Of course, in Alabama the Tuscaloosa, but that is entirely ir-elephant to what I was talking about.
Peace,
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)... Groucho claimed to be the one who came up with the Tuscaloosa line. In fact, he was quite proud of it.
I may be no Austen expert, but I'm a Groucho Marxist.
Hello, I must be going.
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PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)in a prison, for example. Whether convicted felons should be able to vote or not doesn't really depend on whether
voting is a "right" or not.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)After serving their time, a felon should have his/her right to vote back.
Guess that makes me a flaming liberal.
merrily
(45,251 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I also believe due to systemic oppression, the "rights" of some have higher priority over the "rights" of others.
I opined that I believe my argument is conceptual, not legal, for a reason.
We should be fighting to make it an absolute right. I don't take issue with felons being able to vote while in prison. They do have access to information.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Iowa and Florida -All people with felony convictions are permanently disenfranchised. They are the two worst States.
My own State of Oregon does not let prisoners vote, but once out they can again. Another 12 or so States do the same.
NC is like most of the States: People in prison, on parole and on probation cannot vote. People with felony convictions can vote upon completion of sentence.
This is important because most States require the felon to apply to get the vote back, it is not automatic.
https://www.aclu.org/map/state-criminal-re-enfranchisement-laws-map
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)good to see another flaming liberal here 
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)
I take after my old dad. Story he loves to tell:
His conservative business type Republican cousins liked to taunt him (the only flaming liberal in the family--they knew he had voted for Kennedy (gasp). One day in the Bushite 1 era when the L Word had been successfully gored of all positive meaning the cousin says to dad-- "You know, I think you just might be a....a.....Librul....aren't ya?!" (sneer) My dad, who looked equally conservative on the outside, didn't miss a beat and says, "Nah, you got it all wrong Charlie, I'm a Radical!" Shut him up right there. Never tried it again.
My whole family now = Bernie all the way.
I wish Dad was around to see this...maybe he is.
thx
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)sounds like he was a very good man 
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Loved people, all kinds. He liked to squelch the small-minded as much as possible. Got plenty of practice in his family.
scscholar
(2,902 posts)They hate us so much.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)But never mind, everyone's going to act as if I just advocated something horrible.
merrily
(45,251 posts)While it is technically true that voting is not a federal right, it may be a state right. In any event, many, many people have the "right" to register to vote, to show up at a precinct, show ID or not, and vote. That means we now go to the 14th Amendment to determine if that right is being provided equally to all under the law because the Constitution does give us an equal right to protection of the laws.
Voting is such an important part of citizenship, I think we have to look very closely at reasons why the right/privilege/ability to vote is being denied. And I don't see why someone who has served his or her time for, say, robbery, should be unable to choose between, in most cases, a Republican and a Democrat on the ballot. Hell, I have the ability to make that choice by flipping a coin, if that were my wish. It never would be my wish, but that is beside the point.
I would have to reflect further before I'd say I'd allow someone still serving time to vote, too, but I think I'd lean that way.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)We heavily criticize other countries for not allowing fair elections. We pass legislation called "voting rights act." This is so fundamental to us in this country, it hardly needs explaining. Yes, criminals should be able to vote, not just when they are released, but while they are in jail.
Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)"Only smart people should vote" and "Rich people know best of me and the country" and that all time favorite," America! Love it or leave it!". Enjoy!
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)the suppressors while denying the hundreds if not thousands or millions who died or suffered for that right. Instead, you could have pointed to the truth of oppression that exists in denying felons the "right" to vote and insist on that "right". Well, you didn't do that. Because some states (R/W red states mostly) deny the right to vote for felons and simultaneously suppress the right to vote for minorities, elderly, students and the like, these acts of oppression and suppression do not in any light or twisted imagining magically transform this right into a privilege. By your definition or mea culpa to history, LGBT folks retain a privilege to marry simply because someone somewhere can rescind that privilege. I disagree. However, thanks for revealing your stripes.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I think it is currently best conceptualized as a privilege. I believe it should be an absolute right afforded to all adults. It currently is not.
Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I was trying to point out how easy it is to have your vote taken. I do believe, considering how many are convicted of felonies, that it is conceptually a privilege.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)Perhaps if you used the word "effectively" instead of "conceptually" it would be more clear.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...should have their rights reinstated, and that includes the RIGHT to vote.
How in hell do we expect to bring people back into roles as functioning members of society while at the same time excluding them from participating in one of the fundamental activities that define a democratic society?
Seems real simple to me.
Sivart
(325 posts)I have never understood why this is the case.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Baffling to hear such elitist nonsense come from a (self-identified) Democrat.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Including while incarcerated, is "elites nonsense" to you? Not to me.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)indeed, I'm old enough to remember when only Republicans talked like that.........
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)and let me add capital punishment......
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)To all adults?
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)not a right............
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I think it should be an absolute right.
In 2010 an estimated 5.85 million people in the United States (2.5% of the nation's voting age population, excluding DC) could not vote due to a felony conviction - an increase from the 2004 total of 5.26 million and the highest number since at least 1960.Nov 7, 2012
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)Well your title confused me.....
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)
WhiteTara
(31,260 posts)
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)of our rights and are not a valid excuse.
Why do you think felon lose the right to vote in some states? What race has the biggest percentage of felons? That alone is disgusting but taking their RIGHT to vote away is unconscionable.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Afforded to all adults. Felons and prisoners alike.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)further before posting. Sorry. I completely agree.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)And taking a second to read it again.
I was away for a bit and was a bit horrified when I came back. Mainly because I do see where people came to their thoughts. That's on me.
H2O Man
(79,051 posts)I stand by the Declaration of Independence. Certain rights are self-evident.
More importantly, voting is a responsibility.
A right and responsibility, yes. A privilege? That strikes me as obscene.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Whith the incarceration rates of felons, and in many states they lose the right to vote, it is a logical thought.
Please note, I am not supporting felons having their right to vote be taken, and I didn't in my op. Though I clearly didn't write it out well judging from the responses. I believe it should be an absolute right afforded to adults. It is factual that isn't the way it currently is.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)
astrophuss42
(290 posts)And I'd rather have prisoners fill out ballots than run drugs and get exploited by some random company they are laboring for at $0.95/hr.
bobthedrummer
(26,083 posts)
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)
kcr
(15,522 posts)It looked like you were actually saying you think voting is a privilege and not a right when I think you're actually saying that that is how things practically are because of RW laws voter ID laws etc. but given your responses you actually believe it is a right.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I didn't think it was when I typed it. When this many people read it in a different way it is clearly on me. I believe it should be an absolute right. I believe with numbers like the ones below that we cannot view it that way. Thank you for the patience in your response.
In 2010 an estimated 5.85 million people in the United States (2.5% of the nation's voting age population, excluding DC) could not vote due to a felony conviction - an increase from the 2004 total of 5.26 million and the highest number since at least 1960.Nov 7, 2012
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)In my opinion, they should get their rights back.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Voting is a right. It is not a privilege.
As long as people are convinced that voting is a privilege that the Uber Elite bestow on us, things will never change.
Many of the "felons" who are denied that voting rights are people who are poor. It doesn't take a degree in rocket science to realize the many discrepancies.
Why did white lady Laura Bush get to escape a criminal record, even though she killed while driving intoxicated behind the wheel? And not only did she not get a record, she ended up married to the President of the USA, himself a cocaine user. Both of them are voters.
Meanwhile innocent people who are named by drug kingpins are then framed by the crooked police and FBI agents. The cops will have the coke stash placed inside the kitchen fridge, so the young and exemplary African American college student gets twenty years, while the coke kingpin gets out of all charges in order to be an informer. And once that young lady serves her twenty years, she won't have the right to vote. tell me you don't see something wrong with the "system." (What was the young lady's crime? She refused to date the coke kingpin!)
####
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Is a real person.
Circa 1999-02, back when I investigated what was happening to women due to medicinal marijuana not being legal, and the harshness of drug laws, her example came up numerous times. She simply did not care for the advances of this young thug who also lived in her condo complex. She spurned his many requests to date him, and as a result, he got the cops to frame her when he got busted!
His kingpin activities got him very little jail time, and he was soon released to be out on the streets as an informant. While she was put in jail.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)and one's civic duty. Everyone should have the right to vote, even felons.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I do think it should be an absolute right for adults.
In 2010 an estimated 5.85 million people in the United States (2.5% of the nation's voting age population, excluding DC) could not vote due to a felony conviction - an increase from the 2004 total of 5.26 million and the highest number since at least 1960.Nov 7, 2012
Recursion
(56,582 posts)That said, voting in a primary is definitely a privilege extended or not extended by the party in question; a political party is free to say "only redheaded males may vote for our nominee". The party wouldn't be able to use state election equipment in that case (the King's shilling, and all), but there's absolutely zero Constitutional right to any say in any given political party's nomination process.
Response to NCTraveler (Original post)
Bjorn Against This message was self-deleted by its author.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)This OP is obviously a steamer.
democrattotheend
(12,011 posts)Your argument is similar to his argument in Bush v. Gore, that there is no constitutional right to vote for president. Technically he is right, but that does not mean there is not a moral right.
I understand what you are trying to say, but I think you have it backwards. Voting is a right in this country, and the fact that some people are unjustly denied the right does not make it a privilege for everyone else. It makes it a right that some people are wrongfully denied.
Karma13612
(4,981 posts)Legally, it's a right.
Plain and simple, we have a right to vote.
Period.
If you feel that with all the machinations we have to go thru, and that some citizens of our country are disenfranchised, you might perceive our ability to vote as a privilege. It certainly 'seems' that way.
But, it is still a right, not a privilege.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)One is felon disenfranchisement, the other a question about open and closed primaries.
Felon disenfranchisement is an old concept called "civic death." It's completely outdated and unacceptable. Serving prison time, being out on probation or parole, or having completed a sentence shouldn't be grounds for revoking a right to vote. That's utterly unacceptable.
As for the question about primaries, I'm in favor of closed contests. Primaries are party events for members of that party to choose who they believe will be the best messengers.