What people are missing.

[timmymoff]

Some democrats (Hillary supporters) Think that if she is nominated the Bernie supporters are going to fall in line and support her center-right policies, her new evolutions. We aren't as gullible as you. We know the hard lurch back right is coming. We know her words were hollow at best. We aren't going anywhere, but we especially aren't going into acceptance mode of what we feel ails us. I am a lifelong democrat, I am an FDR democrat. I am not a WST democrat (Wall St.). I am not an HRC democrat, nor a DWS democrat. My efforts will be on the local level. Bernie won by 5000 in my county, therefore the need to change the politics of old in our county ( Democratic party only supported Clinton and got their ass handed to them.) I will more concentrate my efforts on building a true democratic party, a liberal party, as opposed to the failed policies of Wall St. I will vote for all the liberal candidates down ballot, but if Hillary wins the nomination, I will leave that blank. It's not that I don't care, but that they know longer care about me. this reaction is something Hillary, and her supporters, have earned. as stated before, enjoy your Frankentein's monster. I am not interested in uniting with someone who opposes me and my beliefs. Eventually you have to tell a loved one when they are wrong, and I guess this is the time for tough love. You earned it.

[cantbeserious]

1. Bernie Is The Only Antidote To Rampant DNC DWS DLC HRC Third-Way Corporatist Corruption

eom

[kristopher]

190. Mussolini: “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism...

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.”
― Benito Mussolini

[SidDithers]

2. O.K...nt

Sid

[timmymoff]

4. Good luck

You will need it.

[SidDithers]

11. ...

Sid

[pangaia]

68. Put it this way..

If you honestly believe that a Donald Trump presidency is a more favorable outcome in November that a Bernie Sanders presidency, you are a goddamn moron. - Pangaia

[Fawke Em]

116. Meh. Sometimes you have to burn the field to get the grass to grow.

[Peace Patriot]

104. Please don't use violent language!

I've asked you before. The danger of political violence is very great right now. Don't contribute to it!

[SidDithers]

109. You're reading way, way too much into the expression...nt

Sid

[Jackie Wilson Said]

3. So a fascist GOP White House wont affect you?

[timmymoff]

6. I got through Bush and Reagan

So, not so much as supporting the one who will cause the harm.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

8. I see, so your gay friends and black friends & latino be damned, the environment be damned

the list is long, I wont bother with it, I suspect you already know it.

Your attitude embarrasses me, do you hold this attitude and tell people you are a liberal?

[timmymoff]

10. i hold this attitude because I am liberal.

We only have one liberal running, I voted for him.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

14. Oh for fuck sake NO liberal acts in such a way that elects GOP...not ever, not one.

[timmymoff]

16. No liberal

votes corporate dem.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

19. Well, tell that to every single vote ever cast for any Democratic president since Carter.

Your world would be all GOP White House's since Carter.

You do not seem to see the very big difference between corporate friendly Democrats, i.e. almost the entire party, but very good on social issues and many other issues, and fascist pricks.

[timmymoff]

21. No

because we aren't discussing every election, we are discussing why I won't be part of it and my plans to change things. How I will, and why I will. As many of you Hillary supporters have stated, you don't care how I vote, yet seem to take a large amount of time typing about how you don't care. Now you are seeing the problem.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

23. Bernie supporter here, who wont be selfish and walk away because I didnt get everything

I wanted.

You are setting up a state of fascism for this country as your actions will help the fascists.

And it makes me very angry.

[timmymoff]

26. You should be angry

knowing you are selling yourself and your nation short by damned if you do, damned if you don't. My whole reasoning. I am at least voting congressional on down, so I accept your thanks in advance.

[2banon]

100. Actually, the truth is, propping up Hillary in a contest where she's got a 50/50 chance of losing to

the Reich Wing should give you pause for concern.

Bashing the Left for our insights on how this is going to go if Hillary is the nom is a losing strategy.

[Loki]

127. Then why do you have "Hillary Clinton" as a group that you belong to?

I would seriously like to know your answer? If it is the reason I think it is, then your no Democrat....FDR my ass. My parents were FDR Democrats and you're no FDR Democrat.

[timmymoff]

130. If I do it was from long ago

I can't post in a Hillary group, they banned me. They didn't care for discussion of her record.

[basselope]

24. They are damned either way.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

27. Nope, and you know it. Just admit it if it applies, you are not going to vote

because you didnt get everything you wanted and to hell with everybody else, right?

[timmymoff]

36. It isn't what is wanted that is the problem

it is what is needed.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

37. So POC and gay folks and immigrants need to be beaten, deported, treated like 2nd class

citizens?

[timmymoff]

38. like children being sent back to honduras?

Like how private prisons helped the black community? or the war on drugs? Like opposing doma, and elevating the Reagans to heroes of the aids crisis.. stop it, my mind is all but made up.. down ballot only.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

41. Good, you do that, in the meantime I will tell the ten million immigrants to prepare for

the Gestapo as they are sure to show up.

[timmymoff]

42. You have the ability to reach

ten million immigrants? If you can reach ten million immigrants hopefully you convinced the five million naturalized citizens to vote for Bernie. But I bet you were just trying to scare me into voting for a kindler, gentler version of evil.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

43. That you would compare Hillary to Trump, says it all. I pray to god you are in a tiny minority,

otherwise the human race is in for possible total destruction.

[Peace Patriot]

107. Hear! Hear!

[litlbilly]

148. Its amazing how these Hillary people sound just like crazy RWingers. They cant hide it at all

[basselope]

47. Again.. they are going to hell anyway.

Clinton has sold these groups up the river every chance she has had. What on earth makes you think THIS TIME its going to be different?

[Jackie Wilson Said]

49. This is beyond sanity now. Comparing Hillary to any GOP is amazing, outrageous and ridiculous

[basselope]

52. It's not a "comparison"... she is what she is. A republican.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

53. And that comment is not sane.

[basselope]

54. Considering Clinton a "democrat" is not sane.

What Kool Aid did people drink to start considering her a democrat?

[Jackie Wilson Said]

56. Your lack of knowledge of the two party system, is it going to result in fascism?

[basselope]

60. Two halves of the same coin.

The "two party" system failed us in 1992 when the first Clinton got into office adopting GOP talking points and moved us FURTHER towards deregulation.

[litlbilly]

153. In case you hadnt noticed, we are already an oligarchy. A few huge corps own and control

everything. wake the fuck up people.

[litlbilly]

158. Goldwater Repulican, end of discussion...

[BillZBubb]

174. Your FEAR FEAR FEAR fanaticism is what is insane.

Hillary's economic and foreign policy positions and actions are straight 1050's republican.

The republicans have moved off the charts to the right, but Hillary is holding the fort for traditional republicanism.

I won't vote for an immoral, corporatist and dishonest candidate just because the other guy is worse. No amount of badgering is going to make that happen.

A Trump presidency wouldn't be the end of the world and it might finally wake up the Democratic party to the fact they need to win voters hearts and minds, not just try to win as the lesser evil.

[hellofromreddit]

82. Gay folks did fine under Reagan

Source:

Now, I know what people will want to say. She misspoke, apologized, whatever. I can understand that. But it has happened enough times that it's no surprise some around here are less than enthusiastic about her candidacy.

Telling others that they lack sufficient purity or threatening them with an ominous fortune won't change that. Give people solid reasons to believe in Clinton.

[Beacool]

90. They simply don't care about the country.

They are not politically mature enough to realize the damage that Trump would do to the nation.

[Fawke Em]

118. Some of us worry about that.

But we also worry about what Clinton will do to the nation.

Neither is good.

[arcane1]

106. BE AFRAID!!! Vote with your amygdala, not your intellect!!!!11

[litlbilly]

146. not much more the the Hillary corporatist faction. They will do nothing for the middle class at all

[Jackie Wilson Said]

149. Sounds like a lot of Bernie supporters. Selfish and horrible. So the harm Trump

or Cruz will inflict on millions, you wont be one of them, so you dont care.

Got it.

Any Bernie supporter who says this garbage should disavow their support for Bernie as he will be the FIRST to disavow it.

[litlbilly]

155. bye bye jackie, ignore list you go. done reading this kind of nonsense

[CorkySt.Clair]

5. This is why it's hard to take this stuff seriously

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1280152456#post5

[Jackie Wilson Said]

20. Ahh yes, Clinton is stealing elections bullshit, again.

Americans are very gullible, are they about to be bullied and misinformed into electing a Mussolini wannabe?

[basselope]

50. Now you are calling Hillary a Mussolini wannabe???

[Jackie Wilson Said]

55. Why do you want a fascist for president? Why are you advocating for Trump or Cruz?

That is what you are doing if you are telling people not to vote for the Democratic nominee.

It is even if you are not telling people but just doing it yourself.

Why?

I really wanna know.

[basselope]

58. I don't vote for Republicans.

It's really that simple.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

61. You also really dont know what you are talking about. Not meant to be an insult.

Just a fact.

If you have been around as long as some, seen what many have seen, you would understand that Americans dont have a choice who they vote for beyond electing the better of two bad choices.

Always been that way, always will be especially now thanks to CU.

It takes a mature person to understand that while they are not going to get what they want, they do have to protect the little they have.

[basselope]

72. Probably been around longer than most here.

I was on this board when it started after seeing the banner at the first bush inauguration.

Fought like hell for Howard Dean in 2003/2004 until it became clear that the DNC had other plans and I learned just how corrupt the democratic party is and so I switched my registration back to independent and left this board b/c I was being told I HAD TO support John Kerry.. war voting John Kerry.

I have only voted for 1 democrat for president in my life.. Gore in 2000. Didn't vote for Clinton in 92 or 96, didn't vote for Obama in 08 or 12 or Kerry in 04... all for the same reason. They are all part of the problem and not the solution.

Clinton doesn't "protect what little we have". She is a republican, just like the republican candidates. They generally support the same nonsensical policies.

I could go through it point by point, but why bother. You actually believe there is a major difference between Drumpf and Clinton.. however, in reality they are doing the same thing. Telling the people who they want to vote for them what they want to hear with absolutely no plans to actually DO any of it.

[pangaia]

73. Don't you have anything else better to do?

Go for a walk for Pete's sake.

You'll feel better.............maybe............maybe not.

[kristopher]

188. Do you even know what a fascist is? They are "corporatists".

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.”
― Benito Mussolini

[bkkyosemite]

69. You sound like a Hillary supporter. Did I read it that you support Bernie

All over the net it seems you have not been reading what people feel and think.

[Blue_Adept]

7. Proving again that a decent chunk of Bernie supporters are children

And why I really dislike associating with them through my vote.

[timmymoff]

9. Are you voting for Bernie?

If not we aren't associated, and really aren't anyway, because it would be you willing to sell yourself short and advance an agenda you abhor.

[Blue_Adept]

12. I voted for Bernie in the MA primary

So I voted my heart. I won't leave that slot blank in November when voting for the rest of the races on my ballot either. Nor will I do a write-in or anything else.

[timmymoff]

15. i voted for Bernie

in Illinois, and will do exactly as stated. It's time to rebuild and it won't help to rebuild using the current democrats. Just like Theo did with the Bosox and now with the Cubs. tear it down and rebuild it. She hasn't earned my vote. if she wins she has time, but it's not likely. You can call me childish, I call it exercising my rights as an American.

[840high]

45. A decent chunk of

Bernie supporters are honest, caring people who care about America and not one candidate.

[bkkyosemite]

70. I am not a child nor do I act like one. I am offended by your comment but I'm already over it

[Blue_Adept]

97. If that offends you then the world must offend you constantly

Good luck out there.

[bkkyosemite]

112. Not really just some people but I get over it quickly

[NCTraveler]

13. Have at it.

And yes, I'm outright dismissing you.

[timmymoff]

17. That's great

then you are becoming an extension of how the DNC, HRC, and DWS feels about things. Enjoy.

[leftofcool]

18. News flash! We don't care if you vote for Hillary or not!

[timmymoff]

22. Thank you

for taking the time to tell me how you don't care, but I knew that when I saw the rightward pointing arrow of the Hillary campaign .

[NCTraveler]

32. That clears things up. Lol nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. Please vote for whomever you want and spare the rest of us the drama.

As thick as you and you associates think Hillary Clinton supporters are we will all get that you and them don't like Hillary Clinton.


PEACE
DSB

[timmymoff]

28. Yea we wouldn't want to make waves.

That would be considered tacky and beneath us. Instead acceptance is the true battle lol

[dmm80]

63. booyah

[Baitball Blogger]

29. Hit them where they're the weakest.

Use every regulatory agency available to report their shenanigans. If it will be anything like the late nineties, there will be much to report. On the up side, you will take down their small gov co-conspirators with them.

[grossproffit]

30. First elections are tough.

[timmymoff]

33. Thank you

for taking the time to vote in your first election.

[BernieforPres2016]

31. Robert Scheer and Thomas Franks made many good points in their discussion

Among the best points they made was that Bill Clinton got many things done, like deregulation of the financial services industry, that no Republican could have gotten done or perhaps would have even been bold enough to have attempted. They compared it to Nixon going to China, which a Democratic President could have not done in that era.

I think it is very likely that Democratic members of Congress will go along with Hillary on things they would lay down across the tracks and oppose if put forward by a President Trump. There will be no more than a handful of watch dogs on the left like Bernie and Elizabeth Warren and the most progressive publications like The Nation during a Hillary Clinton administration. The Republicans will demonize Hillary and oppose her on some social issues to play to their base, but they will quietly join with her on the TPP and any other programs that benefit the 0.1% and large business and screw the middle and lower classes.

In addition, the Democratic Party figures to lose more seats in Congress with a President Hillary Clinton than it would with a Republican President.

So while I will not cast a vote for the Republican Party in the general election, I am not going to be scared into holding my nose and casting a vote for Hillary Clinton.

[Doctor_J]

76. Correct. The carnage that Hillary and a republican congress will rain down on the poor and

working class is difficult to imagine. TPP, social security cuts, more war, ttip, etc. will fly through. Really scary shit coming.

[BernieforPres2016]

81. And throw in the fact that Hillary would control the Democratic Party through at least 2020

and potentially through 2024. I don't know that there is much opposition to the DLC to be purged in the mainstream of the party, but progressives will be on the outside looking in.

My guess is that Chelsea would be positioned to inherit the family political legacy. I would expect to see Kirsten Gillibrand get a role in a Hillary Clinton administration, a temporary caretaker appointed to replace her, and Chelsea Clinton running for her mother's Senate seat in 2018. Chelsea would be around the same age in 2024 as Bill Clinton was when he was elected in 1992.

[revbones]

34. I agree with you

but would make the humble suggestion of including some paragraph breaks in your posts to make them easier to digest.

[timmymoff]

35. I agree with you.

I am working to improve.

[Chitown Kev]

39. In this political environment

I don't think that Clinton has to lurch back to the right AT ALL.

She might do so out of habit.

But considering who the Republican nominee will probably be, I think that in terms of "conventional wisdom", al bets are off.

[timmymoff]

40. well maybe

considering she is also a part of the right.. just not as far.. that's acceptable to some.. I've kind of had it. Enjoy!

[BillZBubb]

176. She'll do and say what she thinks is required to win. But, her comfort zone is to the right.

She will be more positive on the TPP once the primaries are over. She will evolve back to where she's always been. All that "we agree" stuff with Bernie will be long forgotten.

[Chitown Kev]

189. If this were the politics of the 1990's

and she was following 3 terms of Republican Administrations, that would be the right move.

But she isn't.

Alas, my suspicion of Clinton is that she doesn't know how to do politics any other way.

[anotherproletariat]

46. Take a moment to honestly look into yourself.

We all get worked up about politics. It is so easy to buy into every little internet story that comes up about those who oppose your candidate. Many of these are embellished, or flat out not true - on both sides. They are ways to try and sway people who do not take the time to do their own research. When presented with

Somehow people end up thinking that moving to another candidate shows disloyalty to their candidate who lost. At this moment, I can't imagine ever voting for Bernie, but I know that I will if necessary. I think it is natural for everyone to thing that those who do not agree with them are gullible - I know I do. Not all Democrats are opposed to center-right policies (although I disagree that this is a true characterization of Clinton). Some of us are comfortable with the basic construct of government as it now exists. Just as in race relations, it is a matter of opening up your mind to co-exist with those who do not have the same opinions. It is those diversity of opinions that make any people a more powerful force. Maybe it is easier for Hillary supports to say they would vote for Bernie because she is winning, but I really think that most would not want to see any of the repubs win.

Bottom line is that the Democratic candidates are much more similar than most people realize. Particularly when you think of the limitations of the office of president. Young people have not seen the way history tends to play out. They don't realize that the individuals are not as important as the movement. Sure, there have been a handful of supremely influential leaders in our country's history, but even those men had advisers who might have actually been the driving force behind them. As long as people remain loyal to their philosophies, and work to have their voices heard, we will slowly move toward progress.

[timmymoff]

48. Looking into myself

is what drove me to my decision. It's like being in a bad relationship and continuing on knowing you will be miserable. I'm not into more of the same.

[Maedhros]

80. I respectfully disagree.

There is a very clear choice in this primary between a genuine Progressive and a genuine Corporatist. My lack of support for the latter has nothing to do with loyalty to the former, and has everything to do with their policies.

I can see why Hillary wants us to think she's very similar to Bernie - she needs votes - but the honest truth is that they are light years apart in their core philosophies.

[TheDormouse]

51. If a Rep wins the White House, he will put cons on the Supreme Court

and the Supreme Court affects your local government. It affects who gets to vote, whose votes get counted, and how legislative districts are drawn.

And those cons on the Court will be there for the next 30 years.

Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

[timmymoff]

57. so would hillary

may as well let blankfein or dimon pick the supreme court judge

[TheDormouse]

64. don't be absurd--look who appointed Ginsburg nt

[Doctor_J]

59. So will Hillary

[TheDormouse]

66. no matter how much u might disagree w/HRC's SCOTUS choices--They won't be 1/4 as bad as Ted Cruz's,

Donald Trump's, or Paul Ryan's

[BernieforPres2016]

74. And that's the best we should hope for

"Thank you sir, may I have another?"

[TheDormouse]

77. no--work ur ass off for the candidate u prefer; but if s/he loses, take the next best

Don't just cover ur eyes & ears and stamp ur feet and think that your tantrum will hurt the other side. It won't. It will hurt all of us.

[timmymoff]

83. The next best

isn't in the democratic party.

[TheDormouse]

84. take the next best ... that actually stands a chance of winning nt

[timmymoff]

85. Pick a winner

so you can be sold out. Now don't you feel better about selling out and not losing. No thank you.

[TheDormouse]

92. it's not selling out--it's surviving to fight another day rather than falling on your sword

to make a point

[timmymoff]

94. I'm not falling on a sword

If you read my original post, it stated how I and a large group of volunteers handed the establishment dems their ass in our county.. my efforts will be in my county. I didn't fight a long battle against someone whose record I despise to turn around and vote for that person. I will move on from that nonsense. As stated before I plan on voting just not for the executive branch, you and she earned it.

[Fawke Em]

120. Hell, we have a Democrat in office now and his current nominee is a pro-corporate minion who

has stated little on social issues.

Since it seems our corporate Dems like to put in right-leaning nominees, that card is off the table. It won't matter.

[artislife]

129. ^^^This.

What rights have we lost in this century?

What have we gained? Marriage Equality=huge and wiping out pre-existing medical denial of insurance= huge.

But what else...?

From the top on down?

And I still love Obama.

I don't see what Hillary is going to do...what is she going to do???????
Who knows for sure? The only thing I know is that if she gets in, she will be eyeing 2020 on day two.

[TheDormouse]

172. & he is 63

He's clearly not a 44- or 45-year-old like Thomas, Scalia, or Roberts.
Even if he is confirmed, he'll be gone sooner than later.
A hardcore conservative that a GOP president nominates will stay on the court for decades.

[litlbilly]

164. If Hillary or a repub gets in, our country wont be around that long, so, it wont matter

[november3rd]

62. Get the Republicans Out

Get the Republicans out of the Democratic Party.

[timmymoff]

65. I hear you

I'm not supporting corporate dems.

[MisterP]

67. yeah, the Sandernistas will know what's coming

while the personalists will just be running around predicting the end of the GOP and 80 Senate seats for the Dems

[dmm80]

71. I swore to stick by Bernie through thick and thin. Even it means writing his name in.

The Hill-extremists might not like my decision, but I don't care. It's better than staying home any day. #feelthebern #bernieorbust

[timmymoff]

78. Well

fact of the matter is, they are begging for us when they discounted us for 6 months now. The local democratic party wishes they had the outreach we do. They have all the union leadership support, but couldn't come close to our efforts. They want to coopt our efforts because she won Cook County, well we aren't Cook County. They made their third way bed, let them lie in it. They consider us their lesser and I consider them conservadems.

[dmm80]

79. ^^^This

[salinsky]

86. It doesn't really matter if the Bernie-or-bust Bros refuse to vote for Hillary ...

... for the most part, they're not really Democrats anyway, at least in the traditional sense.

If Bernie wasn't running, they'd be voting glibertarian or some other third party.

Of course as a real Democrat, I'll be happy to back Bernie should he manage to win the nomination.

But, that doesn't seem to be in the cards, and Hillary will do just fine.

[timmymoff]

88. Not in the 1990's sense of a democrat

you are correct. The Bernie supporters are dems long cast out as not being wall st. enough, not being corporate enough. sanders supporters are also independents, but be sure to turn them against you as well. I have voted dem my whole life. It's a shame the direction you third way supporters took the party. I am not planning on being a portion of that type of party, you can.

[Fawke Em]

133. I've voted for the Democrat in every presidential election since 1988.

So, yes, we are real Democrats. The difference is that we are really Democrats. We think the party should be more FDR and less Nixon. A letter after someone's name isn't necessarily an indication about whether someone is a "real" Democrat anymore.

[Beacool]

87. Do whatever you want.

It is obvious by now that some of Sanders' supporters care more about getting their way than the nation.

I want Sanders to be president as much as I want a root canal. But, if he somehow became the nominee, I would vote for him.

Why? Because I have a working brain inside my head and I realize that any Democrat would be 1,000 times better than the despicable Trump.

Those of you who will sit on your asses or vote third party and won't lift a finger to prevent a Trump presidency deserve him, but not the rest of us.

[timmymoff]

91. I am doing whatever I want

just as you are by accepting upwards of ten recent evolutions you know she won't keep. Just as you try to convince me I am wrong, when in fact you are rewarding mediocrity. That's the problem, if you continue doing the same because of fear, you will get more fear. You will get more of the same, and you will have earned it. As stated before.

[Beacool]

95. What fear?

I have been a Hillary supporter for years. I have zero interest in supporting the man who makes promises that he will never be able to fulfill.

You think that this country will be better under Trump? The guy is a menace.

[timmymoff]

99. That fear

fear of SC, fear of trump. As a supporter for years , you must be accustomed to selling yourself out. I'm cool with that. Enjoy. it is your long time support which allows her to be on every side of every issue. the thing that causes her high untrustworthy numbers.

[pdsimdars]

89. Amen! couldn't agree more .

[rock]

93. O Timmy the wise one of over 200 posts, tell us

How did the Bernie Supporters arrive at such monolithic thinking, and how did you perceive this? Shouldn't we really let each individual vote how he wants? Hmmm? Thanks and welcome to DU.

[timmymoff]

96. Does my lack of time in this group bother you?

does it make my opinion less, because I haven't served the time in honoring the third way long enough? Vote how you want. I am. But your condescension of my time and candidate is the very trouble you will have in the general, again She and you are earning the disdain.

[sibelian]

98. I don't think they realise how serious the problem is.

I don't think they understand how badly off people have been since the crash. The professionals can afford their dramas and silly memes and slithering. The rest of us can see through it because we can't afford it.

[timmymoff]

101. It looks as if your post opposes mine,

but I am sure it speaks to how I feel. I've seen the nonsense and can't afford it. I've lived through the 90's when factories were ramping up inventory so they could move, due to NAFTA. Occasionally we see those jobs return because we are by far a stronger manufacturing nation, with higher quality and productivity. The problem is they are returning at half the wage they once held and less benefits. This is why I do not trust this not so new style of democrat. One more beholden to management than labor, one who supports banks and brokerage houses more than brick masons and bakers. Hillary already showed me she will sell out the working class immediately with her policy of $12 minimum wage compared to the other democratic candidates supporting $15. That sealed it for me, that showed me she isn't willing to fight for us, but compromise for them. The shame of that is people choose to support that lack of fight. This is the Clinton/ third way legacy that is already visible in America.

[MisterP]

131. from another thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1280152619

[JaneyVee]

102. Go away.

[timmymoff]

103. That's the problem

for you. We aren't going away. We already have changed the dynamic, and you fear that. We will continue to change the dynamic, you also fear that. Independents aren't excited about Clinton. Basically you realize the flaws she has in the general, it's a moral struggle supporting the least liberal, I understand, you are just doing what you are told. Simply following orders.

[wildeyed]

105. You are an acronym Democrat!!!

A lover of the alphabet and quite the drama queen to boot!

[timmymoff]

108. I think the kids call it

Old school. The kind that won't sell out. The kind that won't support the conservative wing. The kind you used to be before you sold out.

[wildeyed]

113. Yeah, because you know me sooooo well!

It's a two-party system, darling. You pick the coalition that best fits your beliefs and then fight like hell for them. The ones who take their ball and go home ALWAYS lose. And then whine about how they never win, apparently. We call that something around here, but it is not "old school".

[timmymoff]

114. My needs have been met long ago

we are now talking about wants. I lived through quite a few presidencies that were going to destroy us. I've won plenty, I've lost plenty, but never have I voted for someone guaranteed to be half of what is sought. I won't start now. Selling out is the new style.

[wildeyed]

115. Then you are lucky

that your needs are so well met. That is a privilege most do not have. Must be nice

[timmymoff]

117. It's earned

It wasn't privilege. Others need the same ability, one candidate already sold that ability for the poor to the wealthy businessmen. That would be Hillary's immediate $3 reduction of the minimum wage fight. One of the issues in which she immediately folded her hand. It wasn't because the hand was bad, for those hands have been won across the nation. It was because she didn't show a willingness to fight. That sell out of American workers was plenty for me. Good luck to you.

[wildeyed]

119. Yeah, well I got mine, too.

But I am not leaving the rest in the dirt because I am too precious to vote for a candidate that is 1000% better than the GOP choice, just because I didn't support her in the primary. She is also, I might add, the popular choice of other Democrats. So many disagree with you about who the best fighter is in this race.

Y'all would be pitching a FIT if the tables were turned, Bernie was winning and Clinton supporters were threatening to abstain.

[timmymoff]

122. by choosing clinton you are doing exactly that.

It isn't about being precious, it's about her immediate list of sell outs as follow: 1. Minimum wage fight 2. Her immediate refusal to seek single payer 3. Her outrageous support of fracking worldwide. There are many more I am sure you have read them, then conveniently ignored them. The tables have been turned, you forgot the PUMA's of 2008? Would we have Hillary supporters in 2016 like the PUMA's of 2008 if the roles were reversed. I believe so. The problem is she doesn't garner independents. Want to know why? Her candidacy is old hat, same ole same ole, status quo, business as usual. Why support that?

[wildeyed]

124. Statistically, PUMAs did not exists.

There were like four of them blocked here after the primary, and as far as actual GE statistics, no Clinton primary voters stayed home, at least not enough to be statistically relevant. Just another load of BS the media trumped up so they could have something to write about.

The thing about Indys is not true. Already loads of evidence that moderate Reps will cross over for her.

I think you are just wrong about the best strategy for increasing minimum wage and getting single payer. I don't think Sanders has any plan, legislatively, to get any of that passed. And the math in his healthcare plan DOES NOT WORK. So we simply disagree about strategy, but not about the goal. And I am fine with that. But I find it EXTREMELY disrespectful when Sanders supporters pontificate to me about what my best interests are or how electoral strategies work like I don't know shit.

Also important to note that there are plenty to the right of both of us who are STILL Democrats, and their views and votes count, too. I would expect them to support Sanders in the GE, despite the fact that he is waaaay left of their views, because they play for the team and that is the deal we all made. We vote for who we like in the primary, then support the winner in the GE. But apparently, you do not play for the team. You seem to think the team should play for you.

Sounds like you just don't like her, so you are going to take your ball and go home. I can't say what we call that where I come from, but it ain't old school

[timmymoff]

125. I made no such deal

and any deal made or implied was null in void right around 1988, when the sell out began.

[wildeyed]

126. OK, well don't let it hit you on your

way out

[timmymoff]

134. I won't

We will be taking over our local dem party instead, the corporate wing that lost by 5000 votes

[JoePhilly]

110. blah blah blah

So you are going to punish US, with Trump ... apparently you are "gullible" enough (to use your term) to think you won't be impacted by a Trump Presidency.

Not that it will happen of course ... because it won't, no matter how much you pout and hope for it so the rest of us learn our lesson.

[timmymoff]

111. Not a lesson

a return to principles.

[JoePhilly]

135. Oh yea ... that's it ...

Trump becomes President ... the economy and the country collapse ... and from the ashes ... a new "principled" utopia rises.

Sounds like a brilliant plan.

Unless the resulting utopia is of the Christo-fascist variety that the Trump supporters all clamor for.

[timmymoff]

136. fear mongering

like a good conservadem does

[JoePhilly]

138. Sounds like a good title ...

... for your sad little OP.

[timmymoff]

141. You weren't required to respond

Shouldn't you be phone banking for the status quo?

[JoePhilly]

144. I can respond to any OP I want ...

... welcome to the Internet.

And shouldn't you be at the grocery store getting some more ...

[timmymoff]

147. I won't need them.

If Hillary wins the nomination you guys will be doing the leg work. Better get busy you have to somehow convince independents and others Hillary is best. I won't be part of that. I want a better democratic party and a vote for her is like rewarding the crying child in the shopping line. "keep being terrible honey, I will get you your tiara "

[JoePhilly]

152. She'll beat Trump easily.

And the time to get started finding an alternative to Hillary was about 5 years ago ... when most of the disgruntled left was running around trying to get a primary opponent to challenge Obama.

I suspect what you will be "part of" is 4 to 8 years of the angry left whining about President Clinton, while doing absolutely nothing to create an array of "sufficiently liberal" candidates for 2024.

That's what the political "children" have been doing for the last 8 years ... and there is no reason to expect them to do anything differently in the next 8 or so years.

I suspect you will disappear from this site in a few weeks ... only to return in 2020 to call for a primary of Clinton, and then when that fails, which it will, you will go away again ... and maybe return in 2024, with a list of grievances, and still no array of sufficiently liberal candidates to lead the "movement".

[timmymoff]

182. I have no reason to leave

as stated numerous times. In my county a handful of volunteers beat her by 5000 votes. We beat the established party, we beat them canvassing, phone banking, and in actions throughout the area. We , as a group, are now being sought by the party whose ass just got kicked, so they can attempt to coopt our efforts. We don't need them, but wouldn't mind having access to their infrastructure. They will be given the option of helping us hold Hilllary's feet to the fire with her new evolutions or to carry on with their easily defeated ways. Either way, this county is moving left with or without the dem establishment.

[JoePhilly]

183. Yea, ok.

Can't wait to see the results.

[timmymoff]

184. We tried warning you; you chose the sand

[JoePhilly]

185. Um, you got spanked.

Your warnings don't amount to anything.

[timmymoff]

186. yea, we got spanked

a virtual unknown against the coronation. First we would be gone by Iowa, nope. Then super Tuesday, nope. Then March 15th, nope. Call it a spanking, but i'd more say your candidate inspires nobody but those she already had. That will be the case in November as well. With her as the nominee we will lose more house votes, more state legislatures, etc. I'd call that a bad strategy for long term.

[Tarc]

121. "We aren't as gullible as you"

Fortunately, you do not speak for everyone who has cast a ballot for Sanders thus far, most of home are sensible and support all Democrats, not just their favored one.

When Sanders concedes and endorses Clinton, virtually all of his voters will follow suit. The rest are a statistical irrelevance.

[timmymoff]

123. 13 %

is irrelevant?

[JoePhilly]

139. Our new friend will be long gone by then.

[Trust Buster]

128. Why do people like you feel the need to tell us that you won't vote for Hillary ?

Does it make you feel better ? Really ?

[timmymoff]

132. I guess it is a warning

for the loss in November. Helping you understand before the loss so you can prepare. Kind of like making funeral arrangements I guess. No it doesn't make me feel better. But the corporate wing of the democratic party (Hillary) hasn't been concerned about the feelings nor advancement of average American income earners for some time.

[Trust Buster]

137. Says who ? You ? The majority of Democrats DO NOT agree with your opinion.

[JoePhilly]

142. This guy is hilarious.

[timmymoff]

187. No

but the majority of independents do

[Loki]

143. You know what timmymoff

if you are old enough to remember FDR, then you need to talk to my 98 year old mother and have her tell you what she thinks of Sanders, Trump, Cruz, and rest rest of the male detritus that has run this country into the shitter many, many times. Women are tired of men telling us what is good for us. We have had enough. I'm not listening to that shit anymore.

[timmymoff]

150. I'm not telling you anything

but my actions. My actions regarding Hillary are consistent. I will vote for the down ballot dems who are liberal, and skip the presidential portion. My one vote won't matter, and you don't want my opinion so you shouldn't want my vote. I am not old enough to remember FDR, WW2 , or the American revolution, but I certainly can read.

[Loki]

156. You know nothing

timmymoff. Reading is not a replacement for living through it.

[timmymoff]

157. I've lived

through the years in which labor warned us about jobs, and the Clinton's sold us out. Quite a good result, you want me to sign on for more of that failure? No thank you.

[Loki]

171. As if all the other years never happened.

What world do you live in?????? My father was a labor organizer for AFL-CIO and before that the UAW, and I know who has decimated the unions in this country....republicans. Sorry I'm not buying.

[timmymoff]

173. So

NAFTA was good for the unions? how? TPP was good enough for Hillary to tout as "the gold standard of trade" but conveniently that is no longer so? giving in on lower minimum wage before the fight helped workers how? Supporting foreign worker visas helped American workers how? You tell me oh wise one how those helped, I will patiently wait.

[Loki]

175. Where were you during the Reagan, Bush, Bush years???????

Asleep? Every GD republican governor like Walker in Wisconsin has done an absolute fabulous job of drowning unions and making sure that that word held a negative meaning for the American public, while we just sat by and let them do the dirty work. I guess you didn't do anything either, because even trying to work against those policies in republican held legislatures was impossible. We live in a global economy and we need to do a far better job of protecting our workers and helping the middle class that has been ruined by REPUBLICAN policies. We have companies moving their companies off to other countries and we can do nothing about it because the Republicans control everything. No penalties for moving. I'd say that if you close a plant or move your corp to another country, you can no longer sell your goods here. That's what I will work for, and I have been saying that for years. So while the Republicans don't want to pay American workers a living wage, you sit and complain about TPP, hell they don't even think a "minimum wage" is necessary. Jeez. I'm done.

[timmymoff]

178. And the free trade clintons are the ones to stop this trend?

You are done, the reason is the candidate you support, has as many job damaging policies as the gop. you many not like it but it's true. NAFTA told industry this build up your inventories and move, you can get cheaper labor, if it doesn't work out, you can come back at half the wages once offered. That is the direct result of a Clinton policy. One he pushed for, one his wife supported. so be done, because to me it seems your complacency is what failed us long ago.

[timmymoff]

179. I too am done, with centrist dem policies offered by the clintons

[Logical]

140. I would of fallen in line 3 months ago, now they have been so rude and arrogant I cannot.....

Last edited Sun Mar 20, 2016, 06:14 PM - Edit history (1)

stand her. I will never support a GOP candidate but voting for hillary will make me sick to my stomach.

I live in kansas so my vote will not matter. But I am sending $50 to Bernie weekly. I will never donate time or money to hillary. She can get her funds form her rude and arrogant supporters.

[litlbilly]

145. My feelings exactly Timmy

[DrDan]

151. feel free to take your ball and go home - I doubt your absence will be noticed

[timmymoff]

154. Thank you

but my presence certainly is.

[DrDan]

160. you overestimate your relevance

[timmymoff]

163. Not when

30 people got together and basically won a county against the long established machine and establishment candidate. All my life I underestimated my worth in grassroots activity. Now I see things can and will be changed. Sometimes you have to burn the old grass out of the yard to get new to grow. I'm not interested in keeping the old grass of business as usual, you can though, it is America after all.

[AgadorSparticus]

159. This is the kind of stuff that gives Bernie supporters a bad name.

Luckily, I think this falls into the minority.

[timmymoff]

161. If not subscribing to be sold out

gives me a bad name, so be it.

[AgadorSparticus]

165. I get it. So while Rome is burning down, you will pity the rest of us from your high horse.

[timmymoff]

167. No

while Rome is burning I will be trying to put the fires out democratic sell outs started long ago. You know who they are.

[BillZBubb]

177. A bad name with whom? Hillary fanatics that's who! I wear that as a badge of honor.

Take your bad name and shove it.

[hrmjustin]

162. Another puma making excuse for going all puma.

You are no hero or martyr.

[timmymoff]

166. Just an american who

isn't interested in continuing the party the way it has been. So why support a standard bearer whose standards are equally as low as the gop?

[hrmjustin]

168. The fact you think that is all i need to know.

You do what you want but you are no hero.

[timmymoff]

169. Maybe not

but I also won't be complicit.

[hrmjustin]

170. Good day.

[Lucinda]

180. I'm pretty sure Hillary will do just fine without the keyboard warrior vote. n/t

[timmymoff]

181. she did so fine in our county

the keyboard warriors beat her by 5000

[stevenleser]

191. Yep, I don't care what the OP does or any few dozen here who say the same

We will be fine without them.

[Mary Mac]

192. let it ride out

When I was an Obama supporter I really hoped Hillary would drop out sooner but she didn't and she had some last minute blue collar surges. Over the years I have seen third party candidates help (Perot) and hurt (Nader) the Democrats. I have come to appreciate candidates on both sides - Carter and Ford. And I have voted green as well as Republican. So let this go round on. Bernie will do well in the west and postpone the horror misogeny she has waiting for her. And we women will have her back.