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Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:34 AM Mar 2016

This may be the election that redefines the parties. The Democrats may evolve into the party of the

status quo (such defensive efforts to conserve the status quo against change is called "conservatism" in political science class).

The Republicans may be evolving into the party that tells those who feel left out of the status quo economy "we are going to radically change this broken system."

If we cannot stop Hillary in the primary, we are looking at the first election in my lifetime where

* the Democrat is the candidate using Citizens United to raise Super PAC funds from millionaires and billionaires while the Republican campaigns against a corrupt pay-to-play campaign finance system

* the Democrat is the candidate encouraging international trade agreements which have the effect of promoting the loss of American union jobs to foreign countries while the Republican campaigns on bringing those union jobs back to America

* the Democrat is the candidate who saber rattles about American boots on the ground in foreign conflicts while the Republican campaigns on the theme that the countries in the region should take the lead role and we should limit our in-forum involvement to bombing rather than American boots on the ground

* the Democrat is the candidate is defending the tax policy status quo while proposing minuscule tweaks at the edges of that policy while the Republican is arguing that the billionaires and the large corporations must pay a greater share of taxes

* the Democrat is the candidate saying "let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater" about Wall Street reforms while the Republican campaigns against corruption in the financial sector

Here's an exercise: Draw a horizontal line, and put the initials "FDR" at the left end of the line and write "George HW Bush" at the right end of the line. Now, write "Hillary" at some point on this line -- closer to FDR if you believe she will govern more like FDR or closer to Bush if you think she will govern more like him.

If that exercise doesn't make you sad, then you don't understand why so many progressives and liberals know Hillary would be a historically weak general election candidate incapable of uniting the party.
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This may be the election that redefines the parties. The Democrats may evolve into the party of the (Original Post) Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 OP
Down is up and up is down in Bernie supporter's world. The contortions must hurt Huh? upaloopa Mar 2016 #1
Confusing, isn't it? Octafish Mar 2016 #34
Hillary is the ONLY candidate actively fighting Citizens United. JaneyVee Mar 2016 #2
Yeah not much of a prognosticator CorkySt.Clair Mar 2016 #6
Yeah, she's actively fighting it all right CoffeeCat Mar 2016 #41
Hillary practiced reckless regime change that benefited ISIS; she promised to oppose FTAs but then amborin Mar 2016 #44
Bernie has repeatedly described Citizens United as the worst decision every made by the ladjf Mar 2016 #54
One of the worst noretreatnosurrender Mar 2016 #77
Hillary is NOT the only candidate actively fighting Citizens United hellofromreddit Mar 2016 #67
Please provide info revbones Mar 2016 #79
Don't be so naive. Joe the Revelator Mar 2016 #81
+1000 valerief Mar 2016 #3
"There is no difference between Hillary and Republicans" cosmicone Mar 2016 #4
I heard that from some in 2000 CorkySt.Clair Mar 2016 #8
It was a meme spread by Karl Rove cosmicone Mar 2016 #9
There are still a few around who believe it CorkySt.Clair Mar 2016 #11
It was a reality when it came to issues of wealth and power Armstead Mar 2016 #15
My point was exactly the opposite. There is a BIG difference between Clinton and Trump. Clinton is Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #16
When it comes to foreign policy there is no difference between Hillary and Bush CoffeeCat Mar 2016 #52
If you trust Donal Trump to "rail against corruption" then I feel sorry for you. Same with taxes. nt CalvinballPro Mar 2016 #5
I don't trust Trump on ANYTHING. I am not a Bernie-or-Bust voter; I'm a Democrat. I am talking about Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #12
There are people who will crawl over broken glass to vote against Trump emulatorloo Mar 2016 #21
People will crawl over broken glass to vote FOR and AGAINST Trump. Hillary is NOT Bush or FDR Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #24
We'll have to disagree. Mainstream majority voters won't elect Trump emulatorloo Mar 2016 #33
I think the distaste for Hillary out there is very underestimated mountain grammy Mar 2016 #45
I agree. I also think there is a hopelessness that will vote for change even if the change is the Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #49
Me too! mountain grammy Mar 2016 #51
You missed the point. It's that Trump can and will run to the left of Hillary ... Scuba Mar 2016 #26
Yes. Not only will he push some issues Republicans usually won't, he'll be far more populist than Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #32
Yes, exacty! mountain grammy Mar 2016 #48
Don't try to explain the real world to the Hillary fanatics. BillZBubb Mar 2016 #35
Correct! And a blood bath shall ensue. yourpaljoey Mar 2016 #39
That's some serious nonsense. JoePhilly Mar 2016 #7
Awesome refutation! Lizzie Poppet Mar 2016 #13
It's ironic that you're calling for substance literally right after name calling mythology Mar 2016 #68
Looks like you've given up on poll trutherism and found a new kind of nonsense to peddle. DanTex Mar 2016 #10
Is "poll trutherism" what says Sanders is poised to win Alaska, Washington, Hawaii, Wyoming, etc.? Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #40
Have fun with Alaska! DanTex Mar 2016 #56
We plan to, but the fun won't stop there! Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #58
I guess I'll be the only Hillary voter there tomorrow. bravenak Mar 2016 #76
Nah, the 'new' Republican Party is a proto Nazi party. And you don't bring a knife to a gun fight. emulatorloo Mar 2016 #14
? Hiraeth Mar 2016 #17
Yes, but Trump promises the moon to folks All in it together Mar 2016 #20
You're talking about who Trump is. I'm talking about what Trump will falsely promise in his campaign Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #42
Point taken. But consider this: Trump does not have the skills of Reagan. emulatorloo Mar 2016 #50
I would say that Trump has different skills than Reagan. Trump didn't beat the other 16 Republican Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #55
'My cock is bigger than yours and your wife is ugly' won't cut it with General Election voters emulatorloo Mar 2016 #65
True, but I'm more concerned with Hillary giving qualified weasel-word answers to voters who ask for Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #69
Isn't it a bit hypocritical So Far From Heaven Mar 2016 #80
Not sure I agree 100%, but you have made some brilliant observations, IMO. closeupready Mar 2016 #18
Some Dems are really Republicans. They just don't know it. Gregorian Mar 2016 #19
Clinton is old-school politics and this, too, will pass. randome Mar 2016 #22
why? ibegurpard Mar 2016 #28
He's mostly unknown, I would agree. randome Mar 2016 #31
Not when they're pushing the same policy ibegurpard Mar 2016 #36
Point by point. pampango Mar 2016 #23
I am talking about Trump's foreseeable campaign themes. I'm not suggesting Trump would govern better Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #27
Agreed. RW populist demagogues can be tremendous campaigners. n/t pampango Mar 2016 #37
I'm not even sure Trump is going to campaign as a RW populist. I think he's going to campaign as a Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #43
All RW populists have some (specific) far RW issues and some "vaguely LW issues". pampango Mar 2016 #61
Much of Trump's vagueness is more intentional than a result of poor preparation (as many assume). Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #63
I quite agree that his vagueness is intentional particularly, IMHO, with LW issues. pampango Mar 2016 #64
You are wrong, people will believe him. BillZBubb Mar 2016 #47
I did not mean to post that people would not believe his campaign rhetoric. He'll be very dangerous pampango Mar 2016 #57
Pumping up the GOP again?? DCBob Mar 2016 #25
I'm not "pumping up the GOP" - I don't even think Trump is the GOP (and that was part of my point). Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #29
It's LONG past time ibegurpard Mar 2016 #30
The Clintons have historically pushed the party to Conservative FreakinDJ Mar 2016 #38
And the DU Political Rehabilitation of Trump continues apace. nt Codeine Mar 2016 #46
There is nothing good about Trump. He is beyond rehabilitation, but he will make false campaign Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #53
This is not rehabilitation. Ghost Dog Mar 2016 #60
Then put the intials "FBI" next to Hillary's name on that horizontal line. Major Hogwash Mar 2016 #59
I don't see how Hillary is a viable candidate unless she is cleared very soon by the FBI. Vinca Mar 2016 #66
And each day brings something new. libdem4life Mar 2016 #71
I like Donnie's answer to your exercise XRubicon Mar 2016 #62
Evolution has no direction. Up/down, Forward/Backwards, Left/Right, Short/Tall. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #70
I predicted this over a decade ago nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #72
You had greater foresight than I did. Attorney in Texas Mar 2016 #73
I admit, when I said that hte GOP would go away nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #74
To pick out the most egregious of your many blatant factual errors: Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2016 #75
Sadly, I think Trump is more reasonable than his rhetoric while HRC will take us all leveymg Mar 2016 #78

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
1. Down is up and up is down in Bernie supporter's world. The contortions must hurt Huh?
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:37 AM
Mar 2016

Yesterday they can prove Bernie is winning the primaries and today this.

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
2. Hillary is the ONLY candidate actively fighting Citizens United.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:44 AM
Mar 2016

Who do you think shes in court with? Citizens United.

2-Trump is against trade agreements?

3-The Republican is running on war crimes and carpet bombing.

4-Democratic candidate will raise taxes on the rich and lower middle class taxes.

5-The Democratic candidate is all about Wall Street reform and her policy has earned praise from liberal economists.

I hope I never need an attorney in Texas.

CoffeeCat

(24,411 posts)
41. Yeah, she's actively fighting it all right
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:41 AM
Mar 2016

while she reaps the benefits of it--as millions of dollars flow into her campaign from millionaires, billionaires and powerful corporate interests.

She's not fighting Citizens United. She's embracing it.

Every few days she hops off the campaign trail to grab another installment. Usually from Wall Street.

They pay her handsomely for her cut-throat approach to their greed and criminality--which is a bit of finger wagging while she whines, Come on guys...cut it out!"

"Here's another 5 million Hillary. Is that enough to keep Glass Steagall off the table?"

amborin

(16,631 posts)
44. Hillary practiced reckless regime change that benefited ISIS; she promised to oppose FTAs but then
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:44 AM
Mar 2016

lobbied and voted for them; she personally profited from millions in Wall St speaking fees; she has voted with republicans and against Democrats on many crucial occasions; she refuses to reinstate Glass-Steagall, her campaign relies on Super Pacs; she has used State Dept power to reward her cronies and lobbyists; she has promoted massive arms sales to egregious human rights violators who donated to the Clinton Foundation; she has an anti-environmental record, etc.....

?itok=1mUqDEIZ

ladjf

(17,320 posts)
54. Bernie has repeatedly described Citizens United as the worst decision every made by the
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:53 AM
Mar 2016

Supreme Court, has powerfully condemned the law and said that the only litmus test of the SC judge is the agreement to
overrule Citizens United.

noretreatnosurrender

(1,890 posts)
77. One of the worst
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 09:21 PM
Mar 2016

There are plenty of really bad Supreme Ct. decisions out there - Dred Scott, Bush v. Gore, etc.

 

hellofromreddit

(1,182 posts)
67. Hillary is NOT the only candidate actively fighting Citizens United
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 07:58 AM
Mar 2016

Hillary is the ONLY candidate actively fighting Citizens United.


Sanders is running a highly competitive campaign without accepting superPAC money against a candidate who is. He is demonstrating through action that the claims that CU is necessary for "free speech" are bullshit, and he is the candidate who has made campaign finance an issue that is getting national attention.
 

revbones

(3,660 posts)
79. Please provide info
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 09:50 PM
Mar 2016

1. You said she's in court with Citizens United. Please provide any link substantiating that.
2. Trump has consistently come out against free trade policies in his speeches. I'm not supporting him, but given Hillary's track record of supporting free trade policies but saying she's against some, why would she be any better than Trump or any republican on this issue?
3. Do you think given her performance on Libya or when she was told of the policy of "don't do stupid shit" by Obama, or when he had Kerry come in to "clean up her mess", that she would be less of a warmonger?
4. What has she ever said that would indicate she would do this? She won't even firmly come out for raising the carried interest tax
5. What reform is she for? She's only repeated that she'd use Dodd-Frank to break up banks if they posed a systemic risk. The problem is that Dodd-Frank's remedies are after the fact.

So please provide further details on your post - that is, if it's ok for 'some person on the internet' to ask you about your comments.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
4. "There is no difference between Hillary and Republicans"
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:51 AM
Mar 2016

I knew a guy who was convinced he was Napoleon once.

Reality is illusory to some.

 

CorkySt.Clair

(1,507 posts)
8. I heard that from some in 2000
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:54 AM
Mar 2016

"Bush and Gore are the same" they said.

We saw how that turned out.

And that's not an indictment of naderites, but anyone who thought that in 2000 was proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to be a fool of the highest order.

 

CorkySt.Clair

(1,507 posts)
11. There are still a few around who believe it
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:58 AM
Mar 2016

I've seen some of it posted here. Again: fools, every last one of them. Silly, stupid, wrong, ignorant fools.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
15. It was a reality when it came to issues of wealth and power
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:04 AM
Mar 2016

Who was in charge of the Fed under Clinton and won praise from the Democratic Establishment?

Some ultra conservative Ayn Rand admirer and Milton Friedman acolyte whose first name is Alan.

Who ran the Treasury and drove economic policy? A bunch of uber-rich guys who were on sabbatical from some corrupt firms with names like Goldman Sachs.

Who praised and pushed through "free trade" agreements effusively, while factories were closing and jobs being shipped overseas? Some President named Bill.

Etc.

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
16. My point was exactly the opposite. There is a BIG difference between Clinton and Trump. Clinton is
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:06 AM
Mar 2016

the status quo establishment candidate and Trump is the anti-establishment change candidate.

The are not even remotely the same.

If we don't stop Hillary now, we are going to see that the differences between Hillary and Trump could redefine both parties.

CoffeeCat

(24,411 posts)
52. When it comes to foreign policy there is no difference between Hillary and Bush
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:50 AM
Mar 2016

When it comes to war--Hillary is furthering the neocon agenda that Bush pushed.

Hillary hand picked Robert Kagan to be one of her foreign-policy advisers while she was Secretary of State. Of course you know that he founded the neocon movement and engineered the Iraq War plan.

Hillary surrounds herself with the same cast of characters who were at the epicenter of Bush's foreign policy.

If you read, "Rebuilding America's Defenses" (the neocon war blueprints) you will find that they name four countries that they seek to dominate and control: Iraq, Iran, Syria and Libya.

Bush gave them Iraq. Hillary spearheaded efforts in Libya that turned that country into a failed state. She vociferously advocated for arming the Syrian rebels and creating a no-fly zone over Syria. Obama held the line on a full-on war in Syria while Hillary championed the idea. What else was she to do with Kagan sitting by her side--"advising" her?

Reality escapes anyone who doesn't see this. I don't see how any of you can defend this. But God knows you will work like little elves to do so.

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
12. I don't trust Trump on ANYTHING. I am not a Bernie-or-Bust voter; I'm a Democrat. I am talking about
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:58 AM
Mar 2016

how Trump will campaign on these themes (which is exactly what I said). Trump will campaign on themes that will appeal to a great many disaffected voters -- including disaffected Democrats -- and Hillary is not appealing to these voters.

I'm voting for the Democratic nominee and I think Trump is horrible but you need to understand that there are a great many voters, including a great many Democrats, who do not share my loyalty to the Democratic Party.

emulatorloo

(44,116 posts)
21. There are people who will crawl over broken glass to vote against Trump
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:12 AM
Mar 2016

And that includes the same moderate Republicans that came out to make sure Sarah Palin never came any where near the White House.


You know as well that HRC is a moderate Democrat, not some evil SheDevil that is "just the same as Bush". Yes we all love Bernie. But Fuck that Naderite CounterPunch Hypernbolic Bullshit.

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
24. People will crawl over broken glass to vote FOR and AGAINST Trump. Hillary is NOT Bush or FDR
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:20 AM
Mar 2016

and she's a hell of a lot closer to Bush I (GHWBush) than she is to FDR.

We agree that Hillary is a moderate Democrat, but she is also the voice and face of the status quo and the establishment.

I think President Trump would be the worst thing to happen to America since VP Dick Cheney, but he will campaign promising change at a time when many people in both parties crave change.

mountain grammy

(26,619 posts)
45. I think the distaste for Hillary out there is very underestimated
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:44 AM
Mar 2016

and largely ignored by my party. A lot of it is the success of propaganda against her, but much is Hillary herself and her supporters. When Hillary supporters ridicule and belittle young people for supporting Bernie, we have a problem. This happened at my caucus and I see it here constantly. I talked to a few of these kids and told them how important it is to support the Democratic candidate and was assured they would vote and support Democrats down ticket, but not sure how they'll vote at the top if Bernie isn't the nominee.
Something has got to change in the Democratic party establishment.. it's not working.

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
49. I agree. I also think there is a hopelessness that will vote for change even if the change is the
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:47 AM
Mar 2016

sort of horrible type of change Trump will promise.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
26. You missed the point. It's that Trump can and will run to the left of Hillary ...
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:25 AM
Mar 2016

... not that they're the same, or that Trump can be trusted, or that he will pursue leftist policies.

It's that Trump can and will run to the left of Hillary.

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
32. Yes. Not only will he push some issues Republicans usually won't, he'll be far more populist than
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:33 AM
Mar 2016

Hillary.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
68. It's ironic that you're calling for substance literally right after name calling
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 08:36 AM
Mar 2016

Of course if you actually cared about substance, you'd be pointing out the flaws in the original post such as Clinton not running against Citizens United. It's telling that you didn't.

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
40. Is "poll trutherism" what says Sanders is poised to win Alaska, Washington, Hawaii, Wyoming, etc.?
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:37 AM
Mar 2016

If so, I have not given up on it.

emulatorloo

(44,116 posts)
14. Nah, the 'new' Republican Party is a proto Nazi party. And you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:01 AM
Mar 2016

First things first, both HRC and Bernie are against Citizens United.

Either of them will do their damnedest when they are elected.

ELECTED is key,and it will be hard for both with the billions of dollars of raw sewage dumped on them by Rove Co etc.

I'm a bit disappointed in this flight of fancy of yours. I know you are capable of better. I hate to use a cheap legal shot, but we are not some dumb jury in one of your courtrooms.

As you know Citizens United is the current playing field.

As you also know, HRC is not the first democrat to have a superpac.

As you know as an attorney you do not bring a knife to a gun fight

None of our Dems, and that includes Bernie sanders should surrender and lie down to the Koch Bros/Adelesons/Roves

The Republican party as the "the party that tells those who feel left out of the status quo economy "we are going to radically change this broken system."

Seriously DUDE? Trump is a fascist, Cruz is a theocrat.

Honestly you know I love your original posts. You are going to lose a lot of credibility with this one. I think you should self-delete.

All in it together

(275 posts)
20. Yes, but Trump promises the moon to folks
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:12 AM
Mar 2016

And Hillary seems to be playing the old game of keeping the rich and megacoporations in charge of the government, while the rest of us get crumbs, or trickle down which we know doesn't work.

She is against Citizen's United movie about her but is good at playing their PAC money game.
Millinials see how it is for themselves and want change. Baby boomers know we used to have a strong middle class, inexpensive education and real opportunity and want that back for the rest of us.

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
42. You're talking about who Trump is. I'm talking about what Trump will falsely promise in his campaign
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:41 AM
Mar 2016

I'm just saying that Trump will campaign on a populist platform that will appeal to the disaffected from both parties.

I'm not a Bernie-of-Bust voter, but I do think Trump represents the possibility of redefining party lines in the way Reagan did, and it may have longer term effects beyond 2016.

emulatorloo

(44,116 posts)
50. Point taken. But consider this: Trump does not have the skills of Reagan.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:47 AM
Mar 2016

Reagan message was optimistic and he could inspire people with his rhetoric in to feel positive and unified (no matter that the rhetoric was empty).

Trump is negative, belittling, depressing, and hamhanded. That attracts some factions but does not play with the majority of people

Take care of yourself and have a good one

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
55. I would say that Trump has different skills than Reagan. Trump didn't beat the other 16 Republican
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:55 AM
Mar 2016

candidates by chance.

Trump will try to turn the general election into a referendum on populism versus the establishment status quo.

emulatorloo

(44,116 posts)
65. 'My cock is bigger than yours and your wife is ugly' won't cut it with General Election voters
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 07:48 AM
Mar 2016

I think living in Texas may have warped your perspective on mainstream voters. I say that as a native Texas who gets home an awful lot.

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
69. True, but I'm more concerned with Hillary giving qualified weasel-word answers to voters who ask for
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 03:37 PM
Mar 2016

change and Trump giving a clear promise of change.

I have a 100% completely negative view of Trump; I am not persuaded by anything he says, but there are 16 failed Republican candidates who underestimated Trump's appeal to the angry electorate demanding change.

I don't want to risk a scenario where we take a chance in the general election with another establishment candidate who has learned nothing about the risk of underestimating Trump from watching the Republican primary process unfurl.

So Far From Heaven

(354 posts)
80. Isn't it a bit hypocritical
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 09:50 PM
Mar 2016

to claim to fight against something while doing/using it?

How can you trust anyone that manipulative?

Just asking.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
22. Clinton is old-school politics and this, too, will pass.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:15 AM
Mar 2016

It will be especially inspiring if Castro is her VP pick.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

ibegurpard

(16,685 posts)
28. why?
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:29 AM
Mar 2016

Other than being a Latino "rockstar" what does he bring to the table that addresses the points brought up in the OP?

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
31. He's mostly unknown, I would agree.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:33 AM
Mar 2016

But he's young and what little we've seen of him, he projects a more vigorous, perhaps more relevant outlook. That's not much to go on, but I think first and foremost we need to push the previous generation of politicians aside and let a younger generation take over.

That's at least a start to changing things.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

pampango

(24,692 posts)
23. Point by point.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:20 AM
Mar 2016
* the Democrat is the candidate using Citizens United to raise Super PAC funds from millionaires and billionaires while the Republican campaigns against a corrupt pay-to-play campaign finance system

We shall see if Trump does not leap at the chance to use the wealth of the republican party and its sponsors in the GE. I know which side my bet is on.

* the Democrat is the candidate encouraging international trade agreements which have the effect of promoting the loss of American union jobs to foreign countries while the Republican campaigns on bringing those union jobs back to America

Trump wants to go back to a unilateral trade policy reminiscent of Calvin Coolidge and Herbert Hoover, not the multilateral trade policy adopted by FDR. Trump does not want to "bring union jobs back". He wants to make right-to-work nationwide and see unions disappear.

* the Democrat is the candidate who saber rattles about American boots on the ground in foreign conflicts while the Republican campaigns on the theme that the countries in the region should take the lead role and we should limit our in-forum involvement to bombing rather than American boots on the ground

I don't see Trump as anything but a typical republican who bleats about how Democrats have weakened the military and he will make it strong again. If you understand from him that he will be timid about using our military, you have heard a different message than I.

* the Democrat is the candidate is defending the tax policy status quo while proposing minuscule tweaks at the edges of that policy while the Republican is arguing that the billionaires and the large corporations must pay a greater share of taxes

Every analysis I have read shows that his tax cuts will be the usual "trickle-down", cut taxes for the rich (including himself) that we always get from republicans. And this is before he starts cozying up to the republican establishment after he wraps up the nomination and does not need the base anymore.

* the Democrat is the candidate saying "let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater" about Wall Street reforms while the Republican campaigns against corruption in the financial sector

I find it hard to believe that anyone here really expects Donald to "crack down on corruption in the financial sector".

I agree that he will conduct a 'populist' campaign that will be unlike anything we have seen from a republican before. But let's not confuse his RW populism based on fear, hate and us-vs-them rhetoric with real populism, like Bernie's, that does none of those things.

Will Trump be a effective and dangerous campaigner though he would be a horrible president? You better believe he will be. We had better prepare for it.

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
27. I am talking about Trump's foreseeable campaign themes. I'm not suggesting Trump would govern better
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:26 AM
Mar 2016

on any issue whatsoever.

Trump would be a catastrophe on all levels.

I am talking about what Trump's campaign themes will be and why they will appeal to many people who know the status quo is NOT working for them and they believe that Trump will bring change (I also believe Trump would bring change, but I think all of that change would be bad).

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
43. I'm not even sure Trump is going to campaign as a RW populist. I think he's going to campaign as a
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:44 AM
Mar 2016

populist who is all over the map with some far RW issues and some vaguely LW issues and some issue that defy simple characterization.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
61. All RW populists have some (specific) far RW issues and some "vaguely LW issues".
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 11:30 AM
Mar 2016

If not, RW populists would not be 'populists' at all. They know that in order to win elections they have to at least pretend to be support "some vaguely LW issues". Otherwise, they would be perceived as typical right wingers which would limit their appeal to their conservative base.

Also, it is instructive how specific RW populists can be about RW issues - like how long, high, beautiful and huuuuge the border wall will be, who will pay for it and exactly what per cent of a tariff he will unilaterally apply to countries and companies that displease him.

When it comes to some LW issues, he can sound supportive but is much more "vague" about the details than he is about border walls and tariffs.

All that said, he is an excellent campaigner - most demagogues are - and will be a tough opponent which I think is your point.

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
63. Much of Trump's vagueness is more intentional than a result of poor preparation (as many assume).
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 03:18 PM
Mar 2016

Trump is going to pivot to adopt populist positions that defy RW and LW characterizations, and he is being deliberately vague in the Republican primary to leave himself room for such general election pivoting on issues that are anathema to the Republican establishment (and he will also continue to adopt populist positions that remain anathema to the Democratic establishment).

Hillary is also planning on pivoting. She wants Sanders to concede so she can stop campaigning to the Democratic base in the primary and start running to the middle for the general election.

If Hillary is the nominee, her construct will not work because she's planning to pivot on the wrong axis (she plans to pivot left to right when the real fight is going to be populist/change versus establishment/status quo). She's playing chess while Trump is playing checkers. I'm not sure who would win that contest but I am sure that anyone who thinks it would be an easy fight is wrong

pampango

(24,692 posts)
64. I quite agree that his vagueness is intentional particularly, IMHO, with LW issues.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 04:02 PM
Mar 2016

None us know why he is being deliberately vague on LW populist issues. You seem to be giving him the benefit of the doubt in assuming that his vagueness means he will pivot to left "on issues that are anathema to the Republican establishment". Like what?

The other possibility is that his vagueness on LW issues is because he is merely throwing some rhetoric our way to see how many of us will be won over to his brand of populism without him offering the specifics that he gives to the right.

Frankly, I don't see him abandoning the racism and xenophobia that has brought him this far.

For him to go "soft" on Mexicans, Muslims, Chinese, etc. after his convention would make him a "typical politician" in the eyes of his base unless they thought he was just playing the left with vague talk in order to win enough of our votes. And if he does not abandon racism and xenophobia he cannot seriously appeal to many liberals.

I am sure that anyone who thinks it would be an easy fight is wrong.

Agreed. Trump is a skilled demagogue who will play on and exacerbate voters' fears and hatreds during the GE. Defeating him will not be easy.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
47. You are wrong, people will believe him.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:45 AM
Mar 2016

Trump is a free agent. He is not constrained by republican dogma. He can run as a real populist--and therefore take whatever populist themes he desires. He can say whatever he wants and a step by step attempt at refutation will not be effective. He can claim rightly that he has taken on and defeated the republican establishment, so he is not going to be their tool. That is a powerful position to be in.

He'll moderate his more extreme primary positions, he can say he evolved on them.

He will be very difficult for a status quo candidate like Hillary to beat.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
57. I did not mean to post that people would not believe his campaign rhetoric. He'll be very dangerous
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 11:05 AM
Mar 2016

precisely because people will believe him. RW demagogues are really good at reducing complicated national and global problems to simple, if inaccurate, terms that are easy to understand, if wrong. Trump is and will be a master at this. He will be very difficult for either of our candidates to defeat.

He can run as a real populist ...

I agree he COULD do that but he is not Bernie Sanders. I think he will choose to run as a RW populist rather than a 'real' populist like Bernie. Trump will base his campaign on hate and fear - aimed at Mexicans, Muslims, Chinese, etc. He will not run the kind of campaign that Bernie would run of bringing people together and cooperating with the rest of the world.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
25. Pumping up the GOP again??
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:23 AM
Mar 2016

Bernie has zero chance of winning the nomination. Its time to attack the GOP not Democrats.

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
29. I'm not "pumping up the GOP" - I don't even think Trump is the GOP (and that was part of my point).
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:30 AM
Mar 2016

I'm just laying out how Trump is going to be campaigning (dishonestly - I'm not talking about how he would govern, I'm talking about how he will campaign) on issue that have appeal across traditional party lines and how this may have party redefining affects as we move bast 2016.

Attorney in Texas

(3,373 posts)
53. There is nothing good about Trump. He is beyond rehabilitation, but he will make false campaign
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:51 AM
Mar 2016

promises that will reposition the parties in ways they have not been previously positioned.

Trump is breaking the left-right distinction between the parties and reframing the issues as a populism contest.

Major Hogwash

(17,656 posts)
59. Then put the intials "FBI" next to Hillary's name on that horizontal line.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 11:25 AM
Mar 2016

And then sit back and watch the fun begin.
The MSM doesn't even mention it now, because they plan to beat Hillary over the head in the fall with it, 24/7.

Then Benito Trump or Dr. Seuss Cruz will mention it in every speech, every interview, every time you see them on tv.



Vinca

(50,261 posts)
66. I don't see how Hillary is a viable candidate unless she is cleared very soon by the FBI.
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 07:55 AM
Mar 2016

It could be a real mess even if her assistants face charges. Her supporters have their eyes closed, their hands over their ears and are singing "la, la, la, la, la" at the top of their lungs.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
70. Evolution has no direction. Up/down, Forward/Backwards, Left/Right, Short/Tall.
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 03:42 PM
Mar 2016

In the two Establishment parties the easiest to plot the course of that evolution is to follow the money.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
74. I admit, when I said that hte GOP would go away
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 07:50 PM
Mar 2016

and the Ds would take their place, many people here harassed and the rest. Now it is like... well, history has echoes and the Ds have done this 5 previous times. The Ds are just as divided as the Rs, it is just less obvious, so there is also a chance that both parties will go away. And that could be mayhem 

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
75. To pick out the most egregious of your many blatant factual errors:
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 09:10 PM
Mar 2016

* the Democrat is the candidate is defending the tax policy status quo while proposing minuscule tweaks at the edges of that policy while the Republican is arguing that the billionaires and the large corporations must pay a greater share of taxes


No, Trump is proposing massively larger tax cuts for the rich and super rich than any other candidate on either side; conversely, Clinton is advocating raising those taxes. You're not just not in the right ball park, you're somewhere out in the middle of the pacific ocean.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
78. Sadly, I think Trump is more reasonable than his rhetoric while HRC will take us all
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 09:26 PM
Mar 2016

straight into an inferno. He's a performance artist playing a psychopath. She's a war waiting for the first opportunity. This is shaping up to be the worst election in history.

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