War Children

[H2O Man]

“The best way to help Israel deal with Iran’s growing nuclear capability is to help the people of Syria overthrow the regime of Bashar Assad.”
-- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton


The above-quoted e-mail, advocating for the expansion of US military involvement in the Middle East, should be central to the decision that citizens make in selecting the candidate they support in the presidential primaries. For members of the Democratic Party, it brings into sharp focus the on-going debate between those who support Hillary Clinton’s “experience,” versus those who support Bernie Sanders’s “judgment.” And, without question, this includes highlighting each candidate’s vote to grant George W. Bush and Dick Cheney unlimited war powers.

A vote for Hillary is a vote for an aggressive “Project for the New American Century” foreign policy. PNAC, formed in the 1990s, was/is a neoconservative “think tank” that advocated for the US to “remake” the Middle East in a fashion that brought about the blooming successes the Bush/Cheney administration is famous for.

The e-mail puts to rest any claim that Clinton is not a “neoconservative.” The utter lack of understanding that has led some people to believe that neo-conservatism is a disease that afflicts only republicans has been exposed as nonsense -- for one of the two PNAC founders, Robert Kagan, served as one of SoS Clinton’s top advisers on Middle Eastern policy.

A vote for Bernie is a vote against neoconservative military aggression, and for an attempt to use military force as a last result. Those favoring Bernie recognize that judgment is equally important to experience. And it values human life.

I’m curious how my friends who are supporting Hillary process the information in that e-mail? I remember that they were opposed to the Bush-Cheney brand of necroconservatism. Yet, the Clinton neo-conservatism will result in human beings being just as dead. How do you justify the trade-off in values?

Peace,
H2O Man

[VulgarPoet]

1. I wonder how many of my brothers and sisters in arms will be dead because of PNAC mentality.

I wonder how many innocents that I'll never know will be dead because of PNAC mentality. What's the current death toll, somewhere in the millions?
I wonder how many more times Blackwater will receive contracts because of PNAC mentality.
I wonder how many Americans will continue supporting neo-conservatives wrapped up in democratic labels because they've grown accustomed to PNAC mentality.

[H2O Man]

6. Thank you.

I think that this country has sacrificed more than enough young adults for Wall Street et al.

[Major Hogwash]

2. Kicked and highly recommended.

I think that Robert Kagan has done a great disservice to this country by giving horrible foreign policy advice to Hillary.
Similar in nature to the great disservice that Henry Kissinger did when he was in the Nixon administration.

[H2O Man]

8. Thank you.

I agree completely. And I admire your style in expressing this!

[think]

3. Hillary favors military solutions for foreign policy matters. Anyone voting for her needs to know

that....

[H2O Man]

11. Right.

Those supporting her have responsibility here.

[bigtree]

4. along with that well-known neocon, Barack Obama

President Obama: Syria is more challenging, because the U.S. has few viable allies on the ground there. The regime of Bashir Assad is fighting ISIS but the U.S. wants Assad deposed for committing horrific crimes against his own people and other opposition groups like the al-Nusra Front and a terrorist cell called Khorasan, which was plotting attacks against Europe and the U.S., and are both affiliated with al Qaeda. The coalition is hoping to train 5,000 moderate Syrian fighters in Saudi Arabia.

Steve Kroft: Is there a moderate Syrian opposition?

President Obama: There is. But right now, it doesn't control much territory. It has been squeezed between ISIL on the one hand and the Assad regime on the other.

Steve Kroft: These are the people that you said, the farmers, the doctors, the pharmacists, who stood no chance of overthrowing' the government.

President Obama: Well keep in mind two years ago, that was absolutely true. This is in response to the mythology that's evolved that somehow if we had given those folks some guns two and a half years ago, that Syria would be fine. And the point that I made then, which is absolutely true, is that for us to just start arming inexperienced fighters who we hadn't vetted, so we didn't know and couldn't sort out very well who's potentially ISIL or al-Nusra member and who is somebody that we're going to work with. For us to just go blind on that would have been counterproductive and would not have helped the situation. But it also would have committed us to a much more significant role inside of Syria.

Steve Kroft: You've said, that we need to get rid of Assad.

President Obama: Yeah.

Steve Kroft: And while we're saying we have to get rid of Assad, we are also bombing and trying to take out some of his most threatening opponents and the...

President Obama: I recognize...

Steve Kroft: And the beneficiary of this is Assad.

President Obama: I recognize the contradiction in a contradictory land and a contradictory circumstance. We are not going to stabilize Syria under the rule of Assad, because the Sunni areas inside of Syria view Assad as having carried out terrible atrocities. The world has seen them. Hundreds of thousands of people have been killed. Millions have been displaced. So for a long-term political settlement, for Syria to remain unified, it is not possible that Assad presides over that entire process. On the other hand, in terms of immediate threats to the United States, ISIL, Khorasan group, those folks could kill Americans. And so...

Steve Kroft: They're more important than Assad at this point. That's what you're saying.

President Obama: What I'm saying is that they're all connected, but there's a more immediate concern that has to be dealt with.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/president-obama-60-minutes/

[H2O Man]

5. Please edit

this -- I sincerely request that you remove this from my thread. (You seem to go out of your way to shit on my OPs in recent weeks. What's up with that?)

[bigtree]

7. you called Hillary a neocon for advocating the exact policy of President Obama

...in calling for regime change in Syria.

Both advocate aiding regional groups to effect that change.

I'm amazed that you think you can post this stuff without anyone here calling you on it.

Delete your thread which dishonestly accuses Hillary Clinton of supporting a PNAC agenda, or just deal with people who disagree and have the audacity to provide (real) evidence to back up their claims.

[H2O Man]

10. Not true

[bigtree]

17. I’m curious how my friends who are supporting Hillary process the information in that e-mail

...you wrote in the op.

I gave you my view. certainly different from the ones you're patting on the back, but I'm actually surprised at the level of dishonesty in using that quote.

[H2O Man]

20. Sad.

I understand that you don't have enough respect for me to be honest here. I wish you at least had some self-respect. I feel sorry for you ....what you've become. Later for you.

[bigtree]

40. I'm amazed that you would upbraid me for 'honesty'

...in defense of such a dishonest premise.

I'm frankly tired of the moralizing. All of the posts about the different 'values' Sanders supporters here supposedly hold, as opposed to the lesser or corrupted values you've associated with Hillary supporters as an extension of the politics you're practicing here in support of Bernie Sanders. It's the height of arrogance to imagine the objects of your derision shouldn't defend themselves or their candidate.

I'm a man of integrity who is as well-informed on these issues you've written about as anyone on this board. I'm frankly surprised that you believe you can talk to me as if I was some child.

You want to proliferate this line of attack on Hillary Clinton without rebuttal, you'll need to do that somewhere other than a public forum. You don't want a 'Hillary supporter's' opinion, don't ask for it.

[polly7]

34. I'm not sure why you think people don't know of her supporting the PNAC agenda?

Last edited Sat Mar 26, 2016, 03:57 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1576245

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5222518

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/3/8/1497994/-Robert-Kagan-Neo-con-Godfather-PNAC-cofounder-and-Hillary-Clinton-endorser

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511402064

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027537612

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016148199

http://www.salon.com/2016/03/20/it_is_urgent_that_shes_stopped_hillary_clintons_nightmare_neoliberalism_and_american_exceptionalism_makes_the_world_a_dangerous_place/

******************

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=342032

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http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/10/11/americas-pacific-century/

******************

https://theintercept.com/2016/03/13/hillary-clinton-has-long-history-of-collaboration-with-gop-on-foreign-policy/

[H2O Man]

36. He knows.

This is merely his personal grudge against me, combined with hopes of gaining props with his new friends.

[polly7]

39. Oh, I'm sorry. :(

You don't deserve that, and it's always disappointing to see people you've been close to change. I hope that after all of this is over fences can be mended.

[H2O Man]

42. It happens.

Political alliances are frequently temporary. This is particularly true when they include serious differences in values.

[bigtree]

45. I don't have a 'grudge' at all

...I just object to your line of reasoning and I have the temerity to challenge you. It should do you some good to hear a dissenting voice among the throng of support you receive for your Sanders threads here in this forum dominated by Sanders supporters primed to cheer at the drop of a bird feather. It does the entire forum good to have dissenting voices.

This isn't a high school cafeteria, and I'm not pining to be one of the 'cool kids.' I do recognize, however, how many here are angling to make political and social enemies of Hillary supporters.

My opinions expressed are formed on the basis of my interests, knowledge, and beliefs. I'm allied more with those than I am with ANY politician. I really don't need your validation or approval to express any of that.

[2banon]

65. Your challenge fell flat on the floor sans any relationship to Facts.

This isn't about Obama, This is about the difference between two candidates vying to occupy the position Obama holds now. But you already knew that.

So that makes what you're doing here in this thread quite pathetic.

[bigtree]

66. blocked

[H2O Man]

78. Thank you.

When anyone attempts to accuse me of being "anti-Obama," they have started from a position of weakness. This, I believe, is especially true in the case of someone who knows that I've been very much pro-Obama -- and for longer than they have. But when one is confronted by facts and truths that cause them discomfort, we are able to get an insight into their value system .....either they respond honestly, or don't respond at all, or take the lowest path. Gracious! Sad to see, really. Reminds me of one of the teachings of a prophet being celebrated today, about planting seeds of Truth in rocky soil, shallow soil, and fertile ground.

[TeeYiYi]

59. Good post and video...

More good threads--->> Everything you ever wanted to know about PNAC can be found in these two threads from 2003 and 2004, containing information and links that were originally compiled by awesome DUer, Stephanie:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=301411

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1069536

TYY

[polly7]

60. Great threads, TeeYiYi! nt.

[tk2kewl]

9. Obama has taken a much more cautious and diplomatic approach to the ME

and has been repeatedly challenged publicly by Hillary for doing so.

see both Syria and Iran nuke deal

[H2O Man]

12. He knows that.

He simply wants to spread nonsense and distract.

[kristopher]

43. +1

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Hillary loves peace in the same way that foxes love rabbits.

Or, Dillinger loved banks.

[H2O Man]

15. Very good!

Thank you.

[Wilms]

41. That interview was long after HRC's email.

You want to pin this on Obama? I'll help. He NEVER should have allowed her anywhere near his administration. He never should have taken her advice regarding regime change...the very thing he has referred to as "stupid stuff".

HRC hawkishness is not a matter of debate, is it?? So then it's just a question of the question posed by H2OMan. How do you reconcile her actions and policy-biases with the concept that these wars are serving ill, not good, in the world?

And indeed, how do any of you sleep at night?

[H2O Man]

49. Thank you.

[polly7]

55. Good post, Wilms.

That she was using private emails to collaborate with - Blumenthal - against Obama's wishes, tells me a lot about how badly she wanted regime-change in Libya.

That mother and those four sweet children rip my heart out.

[jwirr]

13. I wonder if the establishment back then had any idea that

we would still be listening and finding relevance in this song so many years later?

[H2O Man]

16. Right.

Or how many young adults who loved the song then have had their morals mutate to the point of becoming that establishment?

[jwirr]

19. Yes, if we hadn't had so many drop out of the cause we would

not be where we are now. Too many were in it for the fun back then and forgot the message when the fun ended.

[H2O Man]

25. Exactly right.

A lot of people got comfortable.

It is great to have a lot of the old team working together again, though!

[jwirr]

47. Yes, I felt that from the moment Occupy started demonstrating

in the park. We are on the move again.

[H2O Man]

50. For years, I had

ranted that there was a desperate need for revisiting Martin Luther King's proposed "Poor People's Campaign." And obviously, a lot of great people were aware of that same need. I believe that "Occupy" was one of the most powerful movements in our nation's history.

[malthaussen]

68. In it for fun, or to keep from personally being affected...

... once any chance of their own participation in military adventures ended, they could be all for them without worry. Dunno about you, but in the lily-white working class school district I lived, there were more kids of the "moral majority" than otherwise: the only reason they were "left" at all was to get laid, get high, and keep out of Vietnam. No principles at all, really, so they could briefly ally with whatever group seemed most likely to get them what they wanted. And as with high-schoolers, so with politicians.

-- Mal

[jwirr]

77. Excellent description of the problems. I lived in Iowa in a

very red area and even the "moral majority" kids were part of it. But only superficially.

This time I think it is different because this one is mostly about issues and not about avoiding the draft of free sex which did not turn out to be so free. The young are actually doing the work and attending the caucuses etc. At least I hope this is different.

[Scuba]

18. "Hillary's experience" vs "Bernie's judgement" is an excellent way to frame this primary contest.

War should be our last and least taken path to resolving international problems. Yet we've been at war nearly constantly since our inception.

Many have died in our wars, on our side, on their side, innocents and others. Many of our wars have been misguided, most boneheaded and some illegal. All, even the "good wars" have been immoral.






Again, "Hillary's experience" vs "Bernie's judgement" is an excellent way to frame this primary contest.

[H2O Man]

22. Outstanding!

Thank you!

[VulgarPoet]

24. A necessary evil in DEFENSE of the United States Constitution.

Not in OFFENSE to "intervene" on other countries. It is not our place to do so. I enlisted to fight in defense, not in "intervention" that is a barely disguised money grab for Halliburton and their ilk. Remember these words; "Africa will be next". Do you know how many HRC supporters I've seen say "Africa is a resource rich continent" so far? Just remember what Hillary said about Iraq.

"Should be seen as a business venture". This isn't what I enlisted for.

[H2O Man]

27. In the last decade,

I've met a lot of veterans who are my sons' ages, who went to Iraq believing they were defending the USA. By the time they returned, they had identified Dick Cheney as the most dangerous threat to the Constitution. They knew they had been betrayed by Washington. I imagine there will be similar insights if Hillary sends them to war.

[VulgarPoet]

33. There will be.

My father was a combat medic in the Army circa Bill's presidency, and that was when he got out. Bill just continued Bush Sr.'s slashing of the military-- benefits, pay, the whole damn circle. Another Clinton presidency is going to see us hemorrhaging even more personnel, with less pay, less benefits, but a whole hell of a lot more of our blood on foreign soil.

[H2O Man]

35. I agree 100%

[malthaussen]

69. See, this is why Smedley Butler should be required reading in high school.

And at least in his day, we were more honest and called the Defense Department the War Department.

And I agree that Africa is next. It is ripe for picking, and we have already begun subtle escalation of our efforts there.

-- Mal

[pdsimdars]

37. Experience and Judgement are the exact two words I come up with

Kissinger and Cheney both have tons of experience, and many other people besides.
But they have shown a complete lack of judgement. And the judgement is the critical factor.

[H2O Man]

38. Exactly.

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Most excellent OP sir.

nt

[H2O Man]

23. Thank you, Sir.

Much appreciated.

[G_j]

26. Thank you

I've been in peace work in one way or another since registering as a Conscientious Objector during the Vietnam war. This is a major reason why I whole heartedly support Sanders,

[H2O Man]

29. Thanks, Friend!

I still have a large supply of CO forms for young adults. I began working on that in the Reagan years.

[G_j]

56. my counciling

at that time, was with the Quakers.
I've had many years to observe American foeign policy, and I've tried to pay attention. I believe Sanders is the ONLY candidate on either side that truly understands the underlying concepts of true peace making.

[malthaussen]

71. That may be true...

... but war favors the power structure, who get all the profit and take none of the risks. Naturally, one who hopes to assume power defers to their wishes. Unless one is Bernie Sanders, although I suspect even he is not wholly immune to the pressures.

-- Mal

[mmonk]

28. Maybe they will but many just associate policy with party

however it may be the same as being vastly different in their minds due to their team v the other team. Others take the time to notice. To those who take the time to notice, the "experience" touted as a positive is a negative to another.

[H2O Man]

31. Thanks.

I think it's a conscious choice to avoid taking responsibility for our violence around the globe.

[pdsimdars]

30. Every new detail we learn about her is worse.

And there is no denying them as "right wing propaganda". . .. they are usually in her own words. And yet they continue to deny them. Will their mental gymnastics ever reach a limit when they will have to acknowledge who she REALLY is?

[H2O Man]

32. It is disappointing.

Not unexpected, but disappointing.

[democrank]

44. Thank you once again, H20 Man.

What I find startling is the number of Democrats who were against Bush/Cheney`s neoconservative military aggression but who have now come out in favor of it via their support for the hawkish Hillary Clinton. My principles don`t change based on who is running for office in the Democratic Party.


~PEACE~

[H2O Man]

46. Thank you.

Principles and values are the things that separate the two sides in this primary. It's sad, really, to see those distinctions here on DU.

[moondust]

51. Indeed.

Was that Israel's position as well or did she just assume she knew what was best for Israel like she knew what was best for Libya?

Going around knocking off Middle Eastern dictators is right up PNAC's alley. The day after doesn't matter because all change is for the better, right?



K/R

[H2O Man]

52. "What's good for Wall Street

is good for 1% of America!" Of course, it costs the lives of human beings, but that's not a big deal to some folks.

[MuseRider]

53. Thank you H2O Man

and peace to you.

I never thought that song would be in play after Vietnam but it is still relevant. How on earth did so many of us give up and turn to supporting someone who will just keep the grinder of lives going?

[H2O Man]

57. Right?

It's strange, to say the least.

[Zorra]

54. Thanks. This is a primary reason why many Bernie supporters cannot, in good conscience,

vote for her.

Rape, murder...it's just a shot away. War children, it's just a shot away.

Love, sister, it's just a kiss away.

[H2O Man]

58. Thank you!

I agree 100%. And I'm glad you posted that song! Well done!

[BeyondGeography]

61. Unlike Obama, Sanders has done little to take advantage of HRC's vulnerability here

Obama ran to her left on Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as on reaching out to Iran and Cuba, and to her right on capturing bin Laden by any means necessary, even it meant stepping on Pakistan's toes. There was a lot of thought and consultation behind those views and they not only helped him at least neutralize a major perceived area of strength, the work served him well when he actually became President.

Bernie gets a lot of praise for his consistency on economic issues, but, in this campaign, he has accorded foreign policy little more than nuisance status. In fact, it's the area where a President makes the most impact and spends the most time. I have very little sense of what his priorities would be. I do know that when the topic has come up in debates, Sen. Clinton has run circles around him from the standpoint of basic knowledge. She gave him a major opening with the Kissinger reference, and he had some fun with that. Plus there is the IWR vote, which he has also used to his advantage. But he has been flat-footed. Last week's coddling of Netanyahu by HRC, which was met by another round of 40-year-old canned speeches on wealth in America, being yet another case in point.

Not that it would have made a difference in the eventual outcome, but Bernie kind of blew it here. He has forced his opponent to the left on domestic issues because that has been his focus. He has had zero impact on FP, because it really hasn't been on his radar.

[H2O Man]

62. Thanks

[Sensitive soul]

63. I like the music!

[H2O Man]

64. It is good music.

[malthaussen]

67. You and Isaac Asimov apparently have the same blind spot.

Violence is not the last resort of the incompetent, it is the first resort.

-- Mal

[H2O Man]

72. Interesting.

For about the first-third of my career in social work, I concentrated on teaching non-violent parenting skills with families with histories of neglect & abuse; in the rest, a focus was on teaching non-violent dispute resolution skills in forensic groups. Those people faced consequences for their violent outbursts. But, had they been politicians, they might well have been rewarded for the same behaviors.

[antigop]

70. " How do you justify the trade-off in values? " You can't.

Thanks.

K&R

[H2O Man]

73. There you go.

Exactly!

[Uncle Joe]

74. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, H2O Man.

[H2O Man]

75. Thanks, Uncle Joe!

Heck of a day yesterday, wasn't it?

[Uncle Joe]

76. It was a wonderful day.

[MisterP]

79. "send them BACK!" "kick their ASS and take their GAS!" "drill HERE drill NOW!"

look at what the elites have done to the party; look what "vote for the lesser evil" has created; look at what we reward our masters for