2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumShould Clinton pivot to the middle for the GE? She's never going to attract the BernieOrBust'ers.
Instead of wasting her time and energy reaching out to the BernieOrBust supporters, maybe she should write them off and go after the moderates? Those who are grounded in reality and maths, and understand that getting somebody to pay for your free college and health care is NEVER EVER going to happen?
Does she have a path to victory under this scenario?
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)daleanime
(17,796 posts)Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)bobbobbins01
(1,681 posts)Just a thought from someone who supports a candidate who has some.
hill2016
(1,772 posts)seems to be promising something to everybody without consideration for costs.
juxtaposed
(2,778 posts)Lucinda
(31,170 posts)Trump will be toast in the GE.
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)She can guarantee a win if she picks off all the center and center-right voters who fear (justifiably) a Trump presidency.
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)the center is really far right from where it was when I first voted.go any more right and you end up in Barry Goldwater territory.
So the current "center" means cutting social programs to give more money to businesses - Keeping social programs liberal - for now or until the center moves more to the right. and war war war. bid defense budget so they can build more 4 billion dollar gas stations in Afghanistan to only tear it down again.
I guess the repubiicans will finally get what they want another depression and child labor and cheap labor and no birth control ...... seriously if you don't see how far right the democrats have moved, you are not looking.
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)hollysmom
(5,946 posts)HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)You don't get to end stories here.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)KPN
(16,038 posts)This! .... is the problem with Hillary's journey. It's ONLY about winning regardless of what it takes, means or requires. The end justifies, well, just about f"ING anything. Fundamental party/democratic values are just artifacts ... nice but not necessarily relevant to underlying goals -- power, control/authority, Third Way globalism and wealth. Needs, goals, aspirations of the people are simply complications confronted on the journey.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Hillary has always been a policy wonk, and she is not going to change. She's running on over two dozen policy proposals dear to her heart that she will finally get a chance to effect from the White House.
jalan48
(14,287 posts)Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)If the primary has told us anything it's that running as a liberal is not a winning strategy. The Bernie or bust people are collectively a lost cause.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)hill2016
(1,772 posts)that's what I'm thinking too...
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)(1) Renewed support for TPP
(2) More overt support for Israel
(3) a pledge to intervene more directly against Isis
(4) Some form of social security reform
(5) Support for Keystone XL
Avalon Sparks
(2,569 posts)I don't support any of those things.
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)I'd rather have *something* with Hillary than nothing, and die in a nuclear holocaust. She would also keep the ACA, not tear it up in favor of a "plan" that would never pass congress. And it is far, rfar, far past time that we elect a female President. Yes, I think that matters.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)Of course he would NEVER EVER do that in a MILLION FUCKING YEARS, please stop this insanity!!!!!!!!
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)floriduck
(2,262 posts)and not bend to polls, focus groups or wind-powered strategies. Stick with aggressive foreign policy, lower or no minimum wage increases, support of industries like big oil, big banks and private prisons, weaken social security, support TPP, back the XL Pipeline and leave the ACA as it is. Then she can strengthen criminal sentences for minor drug offenders and make Debbie Wasserman-Schultz her running mate.
Hillary just needs to be Hillary.
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)And I'm STILL with her.
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)If you want to support chickenhawk policy, by all means. Have at it. You first.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)...
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)the Chupacabra...
k8conant
(3,034 posts)Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)Lorien
(31,935 posts)Wow. That's barking insane.
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)She moved left to neutralize Bernie's momentum early in the process. Now she needs to move back to the center to get the moderates who decide general elections.
Cartoonist
(7,501 posts)I never thought I'd see a Hillary supporter admit that she has no values and will shift positions for political expediency.
Tanuki
(15,239 posts)Ash_F
(5,861 posts)John Poet
(2,510 posts)She paid lip-service to some left-issues while hiring Neoconservative godfather Robert Kagen to run her foreign policy....
Cobalt Violet
(9,909 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I'm curious as to what specific ways you think she's gonna need to move to the right.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Just look at that transparency page.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)2 months, 10 hides and a swift evolution from pro-Hillary to rabidly anti-Sanders.
dchill
(40,146 posts)From the right.
panader0
(25,816 posts)dchill
(40,146 posts)Lorien
(31,935 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)Do you mean go more to the right?
Beartracks
(13,462 posts)Remember when single payer or universal healthcare was something everyone here at DU used to think was noble and do-able?
That's just not the case anymore.
=====================
hill2016
(1,772 posts)at the cost that Bernie pretends it is.
How do you
(1) cover more people (the currently uninsured)
(2) without cost sharings (copays, deductibles)
(3) and give everybody $5k back a year???
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)You gotta thing big.
yodermon
(6,147 posts)but every other civilized country can?
Avalon Sparks
(2,569 posts)I think either they they want single payer and trust her enough to believe that she supports single care and that she'll do everything she can as President to pass it.
If they don't want single payer, then I'd like for a Hillary supporter to give their opinion why it won't work. I've heard the Repubs arguments already, what would be the Dems reason for not supporting it.
I don't believe that Hillary will put much effort into changing it. because to pass single payer, the insurance companies would go out of business, and the largest insurance companies are making large contributions to her SuperPacs, Clinton Foundation, and also to her personal bank account for
'Speaking fees'. She has accepted this funding openly, it's somewhat transparent.
I don't know the exact total, but I do know it's in the millions. All going to support her...
With all that support why would she vote for anything against her financial supporters best interest? She have to be a jerk to screw them over with her political power?
I mean if someone gave you a million dollars to get elected President, would you vote agaisnt their better interests once you were in my office.
Are they just supporting her on faith that she'll change her mind?
Is she lying to them (her mega money backers) or lying to us? It's either one of the other, hedge your bets.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)Avalon Sparks
(2,569 posts)Here's the link to his Heath care proposal from Bernie's website?
https://berniesanders.com/issues/medicare-for-all/
You'll find all answers there, and also more information.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)But that's what you want in the White House.
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)So was Prresident Bill Clinton. You know, the guy who ran things when we enjoyed eight years of unparalleled prosperity...
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)Ikind of like to keep the laws we do get passed for the environment.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Viva_La_Revolution
(28,791 posts)Even tho all the other kingdoms have figured it out. I guess they're just smarter than us
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)If he leaves now, she'll pivot towards the center and accept greater losses among the Bernie supporters. But, if Bernie stays in and she wants a smooth running, peaceful convention, he'll be able to win some concessions from her and keep her more left. I think he's most concerned with domestic issues, where she's fairly liberal anyway. He'll probably let her be a more traditional liberal with regard to her foreign policy. I think for Hillary to beat Trump, she needs to be to the left of him on TPP. Bernie will make that happen.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Lazy pollsters treat independents as a single group. They aren't.
Polls that bother to actually ask preferences have revealed that there are two large blocs of independent voters. Democratic-leaning independents and Republican-leaning independents.
Both groups will only vote for their "leaning" party, or they will not vote.
Both groups are to the left of their "leaning" party.
But when lazy pollsters treat independents as a single group, they are effectively averaging pseudo-Democrats and pseudo-Republicans. Resulting in the false impression that there is a large "middle of the road" bloc.
Instead, the electorate is two big lumps with a valley in the middle. Aiming for that valley is a bad idea. As shown in 2014, 2012 (compared to 2008), 2010, 2004, 2002 and 2000.
GeorgiaPeanuts
(2,353 posts)Voted for Sanders in GA and didn't even have to join Democratic Party which was nice. Should be like that in all states, what are Hilldawg supporters afraid of?
(was my first primary vote and potentially national election vote in my life, at 30)
Viva_La_Revolution
(28,791 posts)I was about that age when first voted too
dflprincess
(28,432 posts)Not all Sanders supporters are "Bernie or Bust" but I don't see how she can win if she goes out of her way to alienate all of them.
beedle
(1,235 posts)If you mean independents that lean the slightest left, they are what we call the independents that vote overwhelmingly for Sanders in Open Primaries.
Maybe she can appeal to moderate CEOs of military weapon manufacturers?
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)Because deep down they know it's gonna happen. The sad thing is that it already happened. Hillary's moving away from Obama. Talking more hawkish.
The question should be . With today's events will Hillary pivot yet back again to the left.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)Trump would probably push her to the right. I think the Clinton campaign will be counting on the disgruntled Republicans who are soft on the social issues, and hard on defense and foreign policy. It's already been said by some Republicans that they will consider voting for Clinton if she's up against Trump. (God help us if it's Cruz) Nut cases both of them. Bernistas may stay home on this one, they don't like her.
fun n serious
(4,451 posts)I say she needs to consider a Secretary of State Sanders. Regardless of Bernie or Bust..
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)Sanders as SOS? Why?
fun n serious
(4,451 posts)Sanders supporters would trust him as SOS... He will have advisers and I personally agree with bi-partisanship RE Israel/Palestine.
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)You want that?
fun n serious
(4,451 posts)Sanders would even that out. He's an American. He would not endanger our country. I rather go more left than more right.
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)An American who does not support Isreal, wants diplomatic relations with Iran, is against intervention against ISIL, and believes socialism is a realistic goal- and a worthy one- for this country. What would be the point of destroying Sanders and then rewarding him with a Cabinet position?
And if you want to "go more left" why are you for Hillary?
fun n serious
(4,451 posts)but she is not my perfect candidate. I am more an Obama Democrat. I am left of Hillary and right of Sanders. I am for a sovereign Palestinian state. It's high time someone stands up to Israel's hard right. Sanders in not against ISIL intervention. Why would I want to destroy Sanders? I don't.
Response to fun n serious (Reply #80)
Post removed
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)a democracy or something? instead of a coronation
forest444
(5,902 posts)I've seen people banned over 3 hides or less, even for replies that included no foul language.
All in it together
(275 posts)Why did you pick Hillary for SOS? She plays dirty politics and Obama kept her busy so she'd stop criticizing him. . . Maybe.
Bernie should be president or stay in the Senate, and use his voice to keep pushing for the changes we need.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(120,001 posts)the GOPers who are dissatisfied with Cruz and Trump might try to draft her for their side. She's close enough to being an "establishment" Republican that one little pivot might be all it takes to get her there.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)Texasgal
(17,139 posts)Stop it with the broad brushes!
Jeez o' Peat! Some people have gone off the rails here on DU!
Bernie supporter here, but not a "BernieOrBust" If Hillary gets the nomination ofcourse I will vote for her!
Please, take a step back and stop with this silly rhetoric! UGH.
Proud Public Servant
(2,097 posts)Moderates are a myth. Poll after poll has shown that independent voters lean either reliably right or reliably left, in spite of opting out of the two-party system. The ones who lean reliably left want her to be more like Bernie, not less. The ones who lean reliably right won't vote for her anyway. Tacking to the middle is exactly the kind of inept, triangulating calculation that one has come to expect from DLC types, which is exactly why she shouldn't do it.
Meanwhile, Hillarys biggest problem is that she's perceived to be a craven DC hack who will say or do anything to get elected. Hillary supporters keep saying that's an unfair characterization; yet here you are suggesting it should be her strategy. Which is it?
Bread and Circus
(9,454 posts)k8conant
(3,034 posts)ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)and spends too much time catering to certain segments rather than just being who she is. Bernie is popular because he's comfortable in his own skin and stands on what he believes. He's not going to "pivot" towards anybody to get votes. If you're with him, great. If not, go find somebody else to vote for. You know where he stands. That's why he's going to prevail in the end.
Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)She has spent her whole life just trying to mimic the political flavor of the month.
She's just an empty pantsuit, IMHO.
SDjack
(1,448 posts)she wants Bernie supporters to vote for her -- after screwing them out of the nomination. Actually, what she is doing is better described as bait-and-switch. I don't see that as a valid strategy to get our votes. The only way to stop this kind of deceptive politics is not to reward it. Her best bet is run where she is now on the issues.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Or reversing civil liberties for our LGBT community, or starting another war, or cutting taxes for the 1% or other nonsense, this Bernie supporter won't even pretend to hold her nose, so be careful just how far into Republican territory you want your candidate to go to "win".
I know she's comfortable saying anything to win - she was a practicing lawyer, so she will always support the people who are giving her money - but please be careful about the bedfellows you pick. She appears to have the support of Bush and Cheney already, and those are some serious fleas.
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)She needs the middle to win. She does dot need hardcore Bernie nuts.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)become "pure Left that Demicratic candidates don't need"? I always thought it was basic core Democratic values.
Oh well. If she's the nominee, I'll switch to Independent. Hopefully it won't be an issue and the point is moot.
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)What can ACTUALLY be achieved?
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Have a nice evening.
Viva_La_Revolution
(28,791 posts)Why the dems have been losing members for years, this imaginary population. There are righties, lefties, and those who don't follow politics
GeorgeGist
(25,402 posts)NO.
me b zola
(19,053 posts)I mean, ya'll got this, right? Go on now. Nothing to fear from Senator Sanders.
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)brewens
(15,359 posts)H2O Man
(75,210 posts)HassleCat
(6,409 posts)She already occupies the middle, and she will tack to the right for the general election. But you are right about the Bernie or Bust people, all 418 of them.
senseandsensibility
(20,256 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)then she pivoted to the left while experiencing push back when Bernie made a good showing as an opponent, so it would not shock me where she rolls next.
She is not the candidate that the Democratic party was looking for.
Teamster Jeff
(1,598 posts)Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(114,311 posts)The Bernie Sanders supporters I met today were a rather polite bunch even though we disagreed. Everyone in my caucus agreed no matter who won the Democratic nomination we couldn't let Trump win
Maybe it's the anonymity of the internet that brings out the worst in people. It's harder to be rude to someone to their face.
Maybe they're really Republican sock puppets pretending to be Democrats. Or agoraphobic losers living in their parents' basement.
Who ever they are I won't give them too much thought.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)Bad Thoughts
(2,608 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)malletgirl02
(1,523 posts)her supporters who genuinely believe she is a progressive. Even though I disagree with their choice of candidate, they don't deserve to be tricked. Plus it would prove Sanders supporters who say she has no principles right.
Lorien
(31,935 posts)but keep telling yourself that she's one. Her history and policies prove otherwise.
Lorien
(31,935 posts)she must be getting dizzy!
Quayblue
(1,045 posts)She should be right where she is. I think both candidates should stay true to who they are and let the people decide.
Then us Democrats work with each other to get our candidate elected.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)Are you for realz?
ibegurpard
(16,815 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)Tanuki
(15,239 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)hibbing
(10,394 posts)ibegurpard
(16,815 posts)She left the middle in the dust a long time ago.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Please, lets get some specifics on issues.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Would that be a bad thing, in your opinion?
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)Yeah, give her detractors more ammo to prove she is exactly what people say she is.
ibegurpard
(16,815 posts)It would mean she's headed back to the left. Not that I'd believe her though.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I'd be looking to see if the garden hose had been recently used.
Hekate
(94,218 posts)....she goes after the true threats to out country, Cruz and Trump. She's presenting her record and policies to the whole country at this point.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Most Independents today are either very liberal or very conservative. The country is hyper-polarized and there is no middle, anymore.
As usual you Hillary supporters are stuck in the 90s.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)this is how I'd do it.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Lone_Wolf
(1,603 posts)In order for her to pivot to the middle, she would have to move to the left!
Cobalt Violet
(9,909 posts)It's truly disturbing to to come to DU and have to read so many Republican talking points.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)We've already been informed that the Bernie voters don't want to vote for Hillary.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Trump's one advantage over her is that he seems to be against stupid wars like the invasions of Iraq and Libya.
But I do think if she wins the nomination, then she will trounce Trump in the general. Trump can't beat her or Bernie (unless she is indicted, which seems like a remote possibility).
Sky Masterson
(5,240 posts)The Pundits are usually wrong.
And she will anger a lot of people.
Even those who support her now.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)react to the obnoxious and damaging Bernie supporters you have gone too far.
Eventually we have to face the fact that people have a right to healthcare, for instance.
The math says 400 Americans have more than 150 million combined. Very bad situation.
CountAllVotes
(21,031 posts)n/t
noamnety
(20,234 posts)It kind of sounds like you're suggesting your candidate would do or say anything if it helped them get elected.
Maybe you should self-delete this one.
patsimp
(915 posts)go to Hillary (and vice Versa if Bernie wins). But there are some that will not no matter how bad the republicans are.
dubyadiprecession
(6,238 posts)the GE by staying home and letting the GOP elect Trump.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Zzzzzz.....
They are everywhere now it seems.
Their slogan, "NO WE CAN'T".
CountAllVotes
(21,031 posts)Zzzzzz .... indeed !!
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)If she lurches any more right, she'd be running on the GOP ticket.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)John Poet
(2,510 posts)Yes, she should. Then she should divorce the Bushes and fire her NEOCON advisors,
and finally BECOME a REAL PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT!
But, that all seems like much too much to hope for.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)We all know it's coming, and it'll be a yuuuuge winner - totally guaranteed!
Logical
(22,457 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,963 posts)So, no.
thebeautifulstruggle
(95 posts)regardless of the audience