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[blueintelligentsia]

This message was self-deleted by its author (blueintelligentsia) on Wed Mar 30, 2016, 05:55 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

1. Depends on what you believe the definition of 'is' is

[blueintelligentsia]

3. is it.....

[TheBlackAdder]

24. Most are "fundamentally honest" until something interferes with their self-affecting desires! nt

[BillZBubb]

2. Anyone who calls her honest is delusional or willfully ignorant.

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

44. I hate how those of us who don't trust her are labelled as idiots who believe right wing lies...

[MisterP]

4. her honesty is a function of how much money you've just given her

[DanTex]

5. She's been subjected to so many right-wing smears that even some self-described

progressives have bought the Karl Rove narrative. Although I have doubts about how many Hillary-bashers are actually progressive.

[840high]

9. Smears brought on by her actions.

Honest> - Hell NO.

[DanTex]

10. Not really, smears brought on by the right because they hate her and what she stands for.

They hate her for being liberal, they hate her for being a smart, powerful, successful woman, they hate her for "not baking cookies." The only "scandal" that stuck was Bill Clinton's infidelity, the rest of it was right-wing lies.

[Autumn]

31. Hey I take her at her word, she says she's a moderate, she's a moderate.

[Politicalboi]

11. We've seen it with our own eyes

Getting tired of the "right wing smear" shit. That's so 90's. Transcripts PLEASE!!!!! But she's so honest, we mere peons can't see them. We're just gonna have to believe her. Sniper Fire bullshit too. Pathological liar plain and simple. She lies to survive the world around her. She lied even though she knew her husband was cheating on her. Right wing smears they are. I suppose the right wing made Bill Clinton have affairs too.

[DanTex]

18. Depends who "we" is. Most Dems like her and she's about to be the Dem nominee for president.

The people who hate her are mostly right-wingers.

[840high]

45. Ha - I'm sure the RW paid off Paula.

[Herman4747]

15. I daresay that most of the "bashers" here are more progressive...

...than anyone voting for an Iraq War Resolution, what do you think?

[DanTex]

19. Like I said, I have my doubts.

[Herman4747]

22. Let me help with that, as it's good to be certain.

The guy on the right should definitely remove all doubts for you:

[DanTex]

23. Meh. Nope, I still have plenty of doubts.

[Herman4747]

25. Is it truly doubts that you have, Dan?

Or is it instead dirt in your eyes, from burying your head in the sand, not wanting to see?

[DanTex]

28. Truly doubts. I don't think it's coincidence we're seeing so many right-wing links here.

Plus the obsession with the emails.

[Herman4747]

34. And yet thus far you cannot even bring...

...yourself to vote that your beloved candidate is fundamentally honest. Is honesty not a progressive value, Dan?

[DanTex]

35. I generally don't vote in DU polls.

[Herman4747]

39. You can't bring yourself...

to affirm
through voting
that your
beloved Hillary
is honest.

Wow.
I mean, wow.

[DanTex]

42. Bernie fans love internet polls. Me, not so much. I'll be voting in the primary, though.

[Herman4747]

77. No, I think I know the true reason you don't...

seek to affirm Hillary's truthfulness by voting in favor of her: you are in such tremendous awe of Hillary's breathtaking bravery in Bosnia while under "sniper fire" that you are unable to simply move your hand to click on a voting button. Every time you try to break free from this paralysis you fail -- there's something deep inside you that stops you. Now what could that be?



Could it be, DanTex, that you yourself have far more integrity than your beloved candidate?

[DanTex]

80. LOL. Now you're a mindreader.

[840high]

46. The mails are constant

news everywhere. Do you not keep up?

[DanTex]

47. They certainly are on the right-wing media sources that get posted here daily.

[840high]

55. Keep believing that. 'nite

[-none]

48. How about Liberal instead of progressive?

Not praising is not bashing.

[DanTex]

52. I'm not sure what the difference is, really.

[-none]

59. Probably not much.

It is just that we let the Republicans demonize the word "Liberal", when it should be the word "conservative" and what it stands for that is the real evil today.

[Politicalboi]

6. Looks like last Saturdays numbers

They don't care about transcripts. They don't want to see them. They don't want to see the truth.

[chervilant]

7. Thank you!

BRILLIANT way to update my IL!

Go, BERNIE!!!

#NotMeUs

[OhZone]

8. Fact checkers confirm Hillary Clinton is more honest -

Fact checkers confirm Hillary Clinton is more honest than any of her 2016 opponents


http://www.dailynewsbin.com/news/fact-checkers-confirm-hillary-clinton-is-more-honest-than-any-of-her-2016-opponents/24196/

[blueintelligentsia]

12. Soooo honest....

Flip-Flop False (they even have the false meter upside down)

Nov. 5, 2012, remarks in Australia: "This TPP sets the gold standard in trade agreements to open free, transparent, fair trade, the kind of environment that has the rule of law and a level playing field. And when negotiated, this agreement will cover 40 percent of the world's total trade and build in strong protections for workers and the environment."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/08/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-now-opposes-trans-pacific-partners/

[Politicalboi]

13. Contributed by Daily News Bin staff

Fact checkers

They're delusional!!!!!!!!!!! What's in those bins?

[Mike__M]

14. She is fundamentally

expert at establishing legalistic deniability before floating false narratives.
Does that count as "honest"?
Several of her supporters here must admire her for it, seeing how they emulate her.

[blueintelligentsia]

16. damn.....that berns, n/t

[democrattotheend]

17. I wouldn't say she is fundamentally dishonest

But I do think she is overly secretive and often speaks in a way that feels like she is trying to have it both ways or avoid taking a firm position on something. Most politicians do the latter, but somehow she seems to equivocate more than most. It may be more of a stylistic thing than an actual honesty thing. I dislike how secretive she is, but it is understandable to a degree after 25 years of Republican witchhunts.

[Ino]

20. Nah, she was that way way before witchhunts...

Here she is trying to have it every which way & avoiding taking a firm position, while Bill nods his head

[840high]

49. Good find.

[geek tragedy]

21. She's evasive, but intellectually she's more honest than Sanders nt

[cui bono]

27. LOL!

Came out of the political closet, did you?

.

[Logical]

50. LOL, I bet even hillary would disagree with that. nt

[geek tragedy]

65. No, she promises a lot less and her numbers add up.

Sanders's campaign just bullshits when it comes to how much his plans would cost.

http://prospect.org/article/false-lure-sanders-single-payer-plan

At Vox, Matthews has probed both Thorpe and the Sanders campaign on some of the specific areas where their numbers diverge. Here’s one stunning detail: When the Sanders campaign released its plan, it estimated $324 billion in annual savings on prescription drugs—until Thorpe noted that the United States spent only $305 billion for that purpose in 2014. (If Trump can expect Mexico to pay for a wall on the border, I suppose Sanders can expect drug companies to pay consumers instead of the other way around.) When Matthews pointed out that it was impossible to save $324 billion out of $305 billion, the Sanders camp cut their savings estimate to $241 billion, while conveniently increasing other projected savings to make up the difference. But $241 billion in drug savings are still implausible, and as the entire episode indicates, the Sanders campaign is simply pulling numbers out of the air.

[ecstatic]

74. I agree. As someone who gets accused of being evasive

at times, I think it's more of a personality trait or maybe a habit that's hard to break out of. If someone asks me something that I consider outrageous or ridiculous, I might (without even thinking) dismiss /reject the question and move on to another topic. Sometimes with a chuckle.

A better approach, I suppose, would be to express my outrage and disappointment at the offensive question and then answer it, regardless of how stupid I think the question is. Maybe people would connect to that better. However, doing that--admitting to feeling hurt-- requires a confrontation and a willingness to show more emotions and vulnerability, which can be tough for someone who is more reserved and non-confrontational.

[cui bono]

26. Oh god no. Where on earth did you get an idea like that???

She's fundamentally dishonest.

.

[Hydra]

29. She may have been once

I really applaud her work in derailing the bankruptcy bill, as reported by Elizabeth Warren for instance.

I think she could have been one of the greatest champions of the Left...but the money and power were too good to pass up.

[KeepItReal]

30. What is "A question you never have to ask about Bernie", Alex?

[peacebird]

54. Bingo!

[WheelWalker]

32. She's fundamentally human, like all the rest of us.

[840high]

51. You think people lie

as much as she does?

[WheelWalker]

57. I couldn't tell you.

[cantbeserious]

33. The Answer Is No

eom

[Marr]

36. Even her fans don't think she's honest.

How could anyone? She's been caught in lies on many occasions that she didn't even have a real reason to advance, apart from self aggrandizement.

[AgerolanAmerican]

37. for a modest donation I'll take any side of the issue you want me to

our rates are really quite affordable at any lobbying budget

[dchill]

38. What she is is fundamentally flawed.

The dishonesty is merely a symptom, a byproduct.

[RiverLover]

40. If so many liberal DUers hadn't been booted,

The "No" count would be even higher.

[jfern]

41. Hillary tries to be honest.... Sometimes.

[baldguy]

43. Yes. Any other answer displays an acceptance of RW propaganda & only helps the fascist cause.

[840high]

53. More RW blaming for her flaws.

[baldguy]

58. Her "flaws" are a creation of the Arkansas Project.

She doesn't pretend to be perfect - unlike what Sanders supporters pretend for him - but all of the negative portrayals of her started with Richard Mellon Scaife.

[840high]

64. So he made her lie. Ok - got it.

[baldguy]

71. All politicians lie. They are human beings, after all.

So, if that's you litmus test your field of eligible candidates is rather thin.

The question is whether or not she is "a liar". She is not, by any stretch of the imagination. Not any more than Sanders is.

The fact that she is habitually characterized as such in the RW media, and Sanders is not, is a direct result of their promotion of the simplistic (and false) Rovian worldview about Clinton created by the Arkansas Project. Accepting that lie about Clinton and repeating it only furthers the fascist cause.

[TheSarcastinator]

79. so you default to "they all do it"?

Are you under Bosnian sniper fire?

[baldguy]

81. And here we see how far down the RW rabbit hole some Sanders supporters have gone

Accepting the worst RW spin preferably over any semblance of the truth.

[TheSarcastinator]

78. what a telling response

Your concern is obviously NOT for truth.

[gollygee]

56. False dichotomy

Is she an angel or a demon? This is ridiculous.

She's a politician and a human being.

[blueintelligentsia]

66. My response to this....

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/03/hillary-clinton-fundamentally-honest-and-trustworthy

[AirmensMom]

60. Where's the "HELL NO!!!" button? n/t

[blueintelligentsia]

67. Sorry didn't want to put HELL YES!!! as well, it wouldn't be fair. n/t

[Gothmog]

61. We are fortunate that internet polls are worthless

[blueintelligentsia]

68. Well said, also fortunate these forums are worthless...n/t

[HereSince1628]

62. I think she's honest about her fundamentals, she's been consistent her whole life

according to herself.

Her personality is the same as what emerged when she was a young person. What once motivated her, very likely still does.

She has gravitas that simply distorts space around her. People see this demonstration of her heavy-weight as a problem with honesty it's not.

[dubyadiprecession]

63. Is bernie losing his hair and the nomination? Of course, she is!

[blueintelligentsia]

69. For the record, as the OP....

I passed on the vote. Let the people decide.

[RiverLover]

70. Kick

[VulgarPoet]

72. I'd just like to point out:

[ecstatic]

73. About as much as a politician can be. Let's not confuse

charm or charisma for honesty. She's more reserved and shy, which automatically puts her at a disadvantage (not just in politics, but in general when it comes to social interactions).

On the other hand, Bernie goes out of his way to avoid telling the truth about what his plans would really involve as far as taxes, or fundamentally changing the way things are done.

Between the two, I prefer Hillary's honesty and straightforwardness.

[Myrina]

75. ... there's a typo in the poll ...

... I think you meant to type 'opportunist', as opposed to 'honest'.

[vi5]

76. No, but few politicians are. (n/t)

[bigwillq]

82. No (nt)

[PonyUp]

83. She tries to be.