Using the deaths of veterans to attack Bernie is disgusting.

[revbones]

Last edited Wed Mar 30, 2016, 03:22 AM - Edit history (1)

The latest from one of the main pro-Hillary propaganda sites is that Bernie is somehow responsible for the VA scandal because he was chair of the Senate Veterans Committee. This is pure Karl Rove 'Art of War' tactics, taking a strength of your opponent and turning it around as a supposed weakness.

I mean my god, during the scandal he only held 7 hearings! Think of what might have resulted if he had just held that 8th hearing! After only 7 hearings, he was able to get the 2014 Veterans Access, Choice and Accountability Act passed - getting both Democrats and Republicans on board.

The propaganda seems to say that it's all Bernie's fault because he was on the Senate committee - I'm guessing they believe he should have personally inspected the rolls of veterans in every single VA hospital. Is Chuck Grassley personally responsible for narcotics deaths? Why not, he's the chair of the Senate International Narcotics Control Committee. Are Dianne Feinstein or Lamar Alexander responsible for Flint's water crisis? Why not, they are the chair and ranking member of the Senate Energy and Water Development Commitee.

One thing the propaganda outlets fail to note:

Nobody voted for long VA waits - but Clinton's war votes certainly helped cause those long waits.

As a disabled veteran and a Democrat, I am completely disgusted with the disingenuous and malicious attempts of these propaganda sites, and their propaganda being cited here to use the deaths of veterans in this manner against someone that has been nothing less than a true champion to veterans.

In my mind these types of tactics just show why citing the Daily Beast, Blue Nation Review and The Daily News Bin should only result in disgust and ridicule.

Edited to add that during this time of the so-called scandal, Hillary was on record many times trivializing the "scandal" It's funny that her campaign and propaganda outlets would now use something she said wasn't a big deal, to try to attack Bernie - but then she's always seemed to think little of veterans and soliders.

[Juicy_Bellows]

1. VA issues are near and dear to me.

[TheBlackAdder]

63. The veterans that Sanders wouldn't have placed in a Meat Grinder if he were president?

.

.

[virtualobserver]

2. This level of hypocrisy is usually reserved for partisan Republicans.....

So called Democrats (like Brock) foul our nest.

The Clintons have a history of using very questionable political people...like Dick Morris and Mark Penn.

[senz]

49. "Pure Karl Rove 'Art of War' tactics, turning strengths of your opponent into weakness"

They are doing it ALL OVER the board today -- attacking his ethics, accusing him of secrecy, family problems, and now blaming him for veterans' deaths -- full on Karl Rove.

The Clinton campaign is getting down and dirty, attacking in the lowest, most dishonest ways while keeping the Queen of dishonesty above board looking soft and innocent.

Absolute lies at every level.

[BainsBane]

3. Veterans have criticized him for being slow to respond

They have every right to do so. That information has been in the public domain for years now. I read about it ages ago.

Sanders has no right to run for the presidency without questions or criticism from citizens and other candidates. He has made his position as head of the Veterans Committee and the legislation he championed central to his campaign. It is perfectly acceptable to scrutinize that.

Your determination that a politician comes before the rights of the people is highly offensive to me. I do not share your view that one man is more important than the citizens he seeks to represent.

[revbones]

6. As a Hillary supporter, you must surely note the hypocrisy in your statement

"Your determination that a politician comes before the rights of the people is highly offensive to me". If I wasn't so offended by the whole thing, I'd be rolling on the floor laughing at your hypocrisy in that statement.

That Hillary followers would try to pin the deaths of veterans on any member of the Veterans Committee, because of delays due to the overburdening of the VA Hospital system because of votes like her Iraq War vote is disgusting and appalling. Trying to justify it as something legitimate to scrutinize him on when he voted against the Iraq War, and is a champion to veterans is not only hypocritical but stunning given Hillary's incredibly weak record on such issues.

[BainsBane]

8. I don't justify the Iraq war

I will not justify what is wrong.
But to argue that he gets a pass for stonewalling on misconduct at the VA is ridiculous.
That criticism of him as head of the Veterans Committee has been around far longer than his candidacy for presidency. The article below, which came up on a very quick google search, is from 2014.
http://watchdog.org/146352/bernie-sanders-va-response/

To pretend it is the creation of the Clinton campaign only reveals your own complete lack of interest in the issue.

You clearly are comfortable deciding what is right entirely in relation to what benefits one politician's career. That is your value system. Not mine. You don't get to project your crap onto me.

[revbones]

9. Is Hillary also responsible? She was in the Senate

and downplayed the scandal you're implying he should be responsible for:

No, as a disabled veteran that has depended on the VA healthcare system for 22 years, I know a little more about it than you probably do (unless you are also a disabled veteran). I have experienced the service in mulitple states in multiple VA Hospitals and CBOCs. I know about the quality of care and have an inkling of why veterans had to wait for care.

In addition to the glut of soldiers returning from Iraq with crippling injuries and backing up the VA system - all due to votes such as Hillary's - many veterans don't follow up or miss the appointment letters that come in the mail due to various issues such as having moved or are homeless.

The scandal was about the backlog and that was caused by people like Hillary.

[Downwinder]

10. Has she ever visited a VA Hospital?

If so, I'll bet it was dressed up for an inspection tour.

[revbones]

11. Sorry - deleted that post since I later posted the video in one above it.

Guess you posted while I was deleting it.

[Downwinder]

12. Thats OK. I'll stay.

[revbones]

16. Really? Seems like they were pretty busy blaming Hillary for her inaction

Veterans' groups fire back at Clinton's VA comments: http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/26/politics/veterans-group-va-hillary-clinton/

Hillary Clinton, the VA scandal was real: http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/28/opinions/hewitt-hillary-clinton-va-scandal-remarks/

Clinton: Veterans Affairs scandal not a 'widespread' problem: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/257999-clinton-veterans-affairs-scandal-not-a-widespread-problem

[Prism]

26. So Hillary gets them injured, and Sanders was slow to patch them up?

And you think Sanders is the problem in that equation?

LOL, ok.

[beam me up scottie]

4. That's an old article, they had to go looking for something to smear him with.

And I agree, I'm tired of the way they exploit veterans, victims of gun violence and minorities who need our compassion and support. If they cared at ALL about these issues they would be working against the real enemies across the aisle, not using them to smear another liberal who is on their side.

As a veteran you have every right to be outraged by this kind of exploitation. Bravo for standing up and speaking out!

[revbones]

15. Exactly. Hillary parades out mothers of victims

when she thought it was convenient, but you don't hear much from her on that subject now huh?

She is just a candidate with issues of convenience that quickly fade away as more donor money comes in...

Thanks.

[BernieforPres2016]

27. You must have missed her campaign event in Wisconsin yesterday

She was out again with her campaign props, the mothers who have lost kids in shootings and other police incidents. One of the mothers said Hillary Clinton had approached her but that other candidate didn't.

MSNBC played the clip for Jane Sanders and she said her heart goes out to the woman, but they don't believe in contacting people who have suffered great personal tragedies to use them for their campaign.

[revbones]

28. Wow - that was an excellent response. nt

[ThePhilosopher04]

5. They have no shame. Pitiful.

[revbones]

13. If Hillary becomes the nominee

those same people will be screaming bloody murder when the right-wing uses the same tactics - all without even noting their own hypocrisy.

And they keep posting loyalty oaths as if that will salvage things after right-wing attack repeats like this.

[Vattel]

14. Hillary is a shameless liar.

[revbones]

21. She also has enough on her payroll or that of her super-PAC... nt

[senz]

53. +10000

One of the worst.

[Nanjeanne]

17. Just add it to the list of reasons why Hillary's campaign tactics make me less likely to support her

if she is the nominee.

She has given up trying to earn my vote. So I've given up on her.

[revbones]

18. Hence all the recent trustworthy propaganda posts

which are pretty funny. "No, really - you can trust Hillary" "Seriously, she doesn't have a trustworthiness problem" etc...

Because we see those types of articles about trustworthy people all the time...

[Nanjeanne]

19. I didn't find her trustworthy in 2008 and I don't now. But I still considered voting for her until

her campaign took the same turn they took in 2008 - the desperate smears, lying and divisiveness. No articles can change my mind. I can reason for myself based on what I see of her. And I think her divisiveness has changed many people's feelings about the Democratic Party forever.

Tis a shame!

[revbones]

20. Before the first debate in Jan

I was willing and able to vote for her if she was the nominee. The blatant lies she told during that debate, such as Bernie wanting to get rid of ACA, Medicare, etc... and then sending out Chelsea to repeat the same lies - all made me stop and think. It just got worse from there.

I knew they pulled some crap in 2008 but I guess I overlooked it. I was in for John Edwards before the scandal since he was the only one talking about two Americas. After the scandal it was pretty much Obama, so I didn't pay her much more attention. Guess I should have...

[Nanjeanne]

23. You are Me!

[pdsimdars]

45. You are me too.

This is exactly my trajectory. Each day the disgust goes deeper. I don't want her near the Presidency.

[BernieforPres2016]

29. I think Hillary is doing a service to show the Democratic Party for what it has become

Better to have it out in the open so everybody can see it and stop living in denial.

[merrily]

60. I just hope she doesn't get to show the USA for what it's become, but

that Bernie gets to show the USA for what it can be.

[Marr]

65. +1

[DanTex]

22. Yeah! What could the chair of the Veterans Committee possibly have to do with the VA?

[revbones]

24. Maybe hold 7 hearings like he did?

Facts are pesky things huh? Oh, what was Hillary doing at the time? Downplaying it.

Might want to read deeper to be able to see that. Might help in distinguishing between someone saying a tactic is right wing and calling someone a "right-winger".

[DanTex]

25. Eventually...

“His ideological perspective blurred his ability to recognize the operational reality of what was happening at the V.A.,” said Paul Rieckhoff, the founder of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America. “The reality was that he was one of the last people to publicly recognize the gravity of the situation.”

...

In an interview last week, Mr. Sanders rejected the notion that he was slow to respond and lenient in his oversight, saying, “We did the very best that we could to make certain that veterans get the quality health care that they need.” Instead, he spoke of his chairmanship as a period of accomplishment, highlighted by the passage of what he called “the most comprehensive” veterans health care legislation in “many, many decades.”

But when Anderson Cooper of CNN asked him on Wednesday about why he did not act sooner to address the wait times, Mr. Sanders conceded, “We should have done better.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/07/us/politics/faith-in-agency-clouded-bernie-sanderss-va-response.html

[Jitter65]

31. drip, by drip...nt

[revbones]

32. Yes, because the Senate Committee micro-manages all VA Hospitals

so he certainly should have caught it himself.




But wait... Did Hillary ever catch it? She was downplaying it as recently as 2015...

[DanTex]

33. It was on his watch, and he dropped the ball.

[revbones]

36. Yep, because Senators are supposed to micro-manage VA Hospitals in states.

And Chuck Grassley personally responsible for narcotics in the US since he's the chair of the Senate International Narcotics Control Committee.

I'm sure you agree that Dianne Feinstein & Lamar Alexander are personally responsible for Flint's water crisis since they are the chair and ranking member of the Senate Energy and Water Development Commitee.


Good logic DanTex! You're really racking up the scoreboard now!

[DanTex]

39. He's supposed to effectively oversee the VA, which he obviously didn't do.

I guess if I were a Bernie fan, I'd also be trying to argue that people shouldn't hold their elected officials responsible for mistakes they make. Fortunately, Hillary is going to win, and we'll have an effective leader instead.

[Jitter65]

30. If they had done something outstanding, Bernie would be taking and getting all the credit for it. n

[revbones]

34. Yeah, too bad he only got legislation passed to address it

Veterans' Access to Care through Choice, Accountability, and Transparency Act of 2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans%27_Access_to_Care_through_Choice,_Accountability,_and_Transparency_Act_of_2014

With Republican support no less - all while Hillary was downplaying it...

[DanTex]

35. Of course. Everything good is because of Bernie, but none of his mistakes are his fault.

[revbones]

37. What mistake? You think passing legislation to address the problem was a mistake?

I'm sure Hillary got right on it. Oh wait - she was still dismissing it.

[DanTex]

40. He ignored the problem for ideological reasons for too long, as even he has admitted.

[revbones]

41. Where did he admit he personally ignored it? Didn't think so.

And it's bizarre you say that would be an issue for you since Hillary was actively denying it was an issue at the time...

[DanTex]

44. In that NYT article. And he was chair of the committee, Hillary wasn't. I'd have thought

that someone in that position would, you know, be paying close attention to the problems in the VA. But this is what happens when you have ineffective ideologues in leadership positions.

[revbones]

46. Another instance of being unable to provide a substantiating quote?

And it must be odd to think that a sitting senator is supposed to micro-manage individual VA hospitals. Should someone from the Dept of Interior be cutting my grass too?

[DanTex]

50. I gave you the link above: “We should have done better.”

And plenty of others cited in the article pointed out that his ideological desire to believe in government programs prevented him from appreciating the problems until they were glaringly obvious. You will of course make excuses for his incompetence, but outside the Bernie bubble, everyone understands what happened. He was in charge, and failed to effectively oversee the VA.

And it's entirely consistent with the Madoff-esque numbers behind his economic and healthcare programs. He believes they will work for ideological reasons, but the reality is, his numbers don't add up, and his plans would fail just as Single Payer did in Vermont.

[Kentonio]

64. "ideological desire to believe in government programs"?!?

What the actual fuck?!

[revbones]

38. It's interesting the logical leaps that Hillary followers will use

to try to say Bernie is personally responsible for the VA scandal while Hillary was busy saying it didn't exist.

[merrily]

42. Remind me when Bernie could hire and fire at the VA and had oversight

responsibility and authority over it.

This is one of the vilest things yet.



Come on, don't be shy, you People of Sense.* You must have something lower yet than this, pedophile enabler and wife abuser, no?


*"People of Sense" is derivative of a term created by Manny Goldstein, known to DUers as MannyGoldstein. Therefore, he owns the copyright. http://jackpineradicals.org/showthread.php?5610-Can-we-ADULTS-discuss-the-Massachusetts-primary I did not ask him for permission to steal the term. However, I trust linking to his article, which mocked my similarly-named article, purges me of this particular theft. If not, too bad.



Everybody---Limbo! Show just how looooow you can go. Do you even know?

[revbones]

43. Exactly!

But they can't admit when they're wrong. They just double-down and try to twist words and repeat the falsehoods from propaganda outlets like The Daily Beast and BNR.

[VulgarPoet]

48. BOOM!

[senz]

61. Great point. They blame him for failures over which he had no direct authority.

He was a congressman from Vermont, so they blame him for every bad thing that happened in Vermont!

Can you imagine blaming Hillary for every bad thing that happened in New York during her eight years as Senator?? (The only elected position she has ever held, btw)

If we were as dirty as Hill supporters, we'd blame her for 9/11! Sure we would -- they'd blame Bernie if the tables were turned! And for the delays in getting the site cleaned up, for the illnesses of rescuers and cleanup crew? Of course! They wouldn't bat an eyelash. It has probably never occurred to any of us to do something so low.

It don't get much lower than Clinton supporter -- not in my book, anyway.

(Re your Manny reference -- merrily, you are one of the most multifaceted, complex posters I've met on DU. It's tremendous fun. You are never boring. )

[merrily]

62. Oh, my. That's two incredibly huge compliments in two days.

(The other compared me to a meadlowlark! I requested smelling salts and I was not kidding.)

I just may float away because nothing can hold me down now.

Thank you so much, senz. Coming from a poster I admire, it means so much.

[VulgarPoet]

47. As of a year ago, I count as a veteran.

I'm staring the possibility of a medical discharge in the face; and seeing this kind of horseshit leveled at Sanders just makes me glad I might be getting out so I don't have to work for the lesser of evils if Bernie doesn't make it. These so-called Democrats disgust me-- and just show me that they really don't give a fuck about veterans; if they did, we wouldn't be fourth and fifth thought smear ammunition.

At least Bernie's been with us where shit went south. He voted against Iraq; but after being overwhelmed by the majority, he voted to fund us, because why go to war without ammunition or supplies? He's been the chair of the Senate Veteran's Committee for how long now? He's had our backs.

More than we can say for the entirety of the Clinton dynasty.

[revbones]

51. If you need to talk with someone that has been through it, please contact me.

My discharge was somewhat eventful. It involved Senator Mark Warren of VA stepping in to help me. If you need any advice on post-discharge steps, please let me know.

[VulgarPoet]

57. Oh wow, that definitely does sound eventful.

If anything comes up; I'll be sure to get in contact-- right now, they won't make the decision to go through with it till June; and with what I've been handling, my chances of squeaking through are slim at best. So it's likely in the coming days that I'll be getting in contact.

[Sheepshank]

52. do you have any understanding how hypocritical you heading is.....

...when you highlight and bold this line?

Nobody voted for long VA waits - but Clinton's war votes certainly helped cause those long waits.

[revbones]

54. Pointing out the hypocrisy doesn't make you a hypocrit

Showing that it's hypocritical for Hillary followers to try to tie the deaths of veterans to Bernie when she actually helped cause many is not hypocritical in and of itself.

[noamnety]

55. At the time it was actually happening

who were people blaming on DU and elsewhere? If they didn't think it was his fault then and only just now decided it was his fault, that's a clue it's Hillary campaign propaganda.

[revbones]

56. It's just funny that

they are trying to tie those deaths to him when she actually voted for wars causing them and the backlog. Then she denied it was even an issue - while Bernie was holding 7 hearings.

[noamnety]

58. Oh I totally agree.

It would be like a tobacco company complaining that the senate isn't doing enough to oversee cancer treatments.

[Maedhros]

59. Anyone who would accuse Bernie of mistreating veterans in any way

is simply an asshole with an agenda.