I'm sorry, but I have to fucking say it...

[Grown2Hate]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by BooScout (a host of the 2016 Postmortem forum).

...is there a REASON for all of the infighting? EXACTLY what does it accomplish? I just want to know.

I fucking GET it already, but let's get it all out... "Hillary isn't trustworthy", "Bernie's too far behind", "Hillary is a corporate shill", "Bernie's un-electable", "Hillary will say ANYTHING to get elected", "Bernie hasn't done enough for the black vote", "Hillary is Republican Lite", "Bernie disrespectfully yells and interrupts", "Hillary has too many scandals", "Bernie promises big, but can't deliver", "Hillary is WAY to blahblahblah", "Bernie supporters are FILL IN THE BLANK"...

Is that it? Did I miss something? Nah... I think I covered it with the last two.

People (CLEARLY) are free to post WHATEVER the fuck they want; I don't begrudge anyone that. But I just don't GET the antagonizing; from BOTH SIDES. WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH? Are you REALLY winning anyone over, or are you just being an asshole for asshole's sake?

I GET passion for your candidate. ESPECIALLY when you're 100% convinced that they are not only the best for the job, but also our best shot at keeping the White House. I just don't get the hatred thrown at each other. The friendly fire.

So, SERIOUSLY just curious. I'd love to see a cogent argument for why beating each other up over supporting our candidate is HELPFUL in ANY way shape or form. I understand debate over the merits of each candidate, but for the MOST part, that's not what's going on. It's a lot of mean spirited one-ups-man-ship (that's a word, right? Fuck it; it is now) with no purpose but to divide us further.

I'm a Bernie supporter, but of COURSE I'll vote for Hillary over Trump. OF COURSE. And I won't be "holding my nose". That's just ME, and I don't expect everyone to feel that exact same way. But...

Three words: THE. SUPREME. COURT. It's not fucking THEORETICAL this time... there's an ACTUAL vacancy. NO supporter, of either candidate, could seriously want Trump or (actually, in my opinion, even WORSE) Ted Cruz to appoint the next Supreme Court Justice, right? Right? PLEASE tell me I'm right...

[fun n serious]

1. I want to hold an olive branch...

Just don't know where or how to begin

[jberryhill]

3. And beat someone with it

[beam me up scottie]

21. Yup.*cough*transparency page!

[Segami]

71. Buckshot.

[bvf]

29. DING! DING! DING! Winner! n/t

[Grown2Hate]

19. Your Bernie cartoon says different, as cute as it is. ;)

[Oilwellian]

63. Oh, wink, wink

Hard to take your OP seriously. Wink, wink!

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

65. What does Grown2Hate mean?

A: Bernie people believe they are up against 2 Republican Parties, one called the Republican Party and the (IMO 401K Lottery playing) Republicans that have infiltrated the Democratic Party who can look at the Goldman Sachs Obama Admin and watch inequality growth and argue Obama and Clinton aren't influence by Wall Street money. It's betrayal. Of course were angered at those who got hooked by the Republican 401K scam.

[jberryhill]

2. They started it

[Grown2Hate]

5. LoL Ok, that was good. Points! :) NT

[uponit7771]

4. Many Sanders supporters on DU have indicated they wont vote for HRC. Not the same for

... HRC supporters, obvious difference in one groups attitudes towards the others.

It be false equivalence to say both groups act the same...

[Grown2Hate]

7. To be fair, I may have oversimplified. I'm not reading every thread or post.

Even if blame is 60/40, or 70/30, or 90/10... I guess I just can't stand seeing us rip each other apart.

And even though Hillary supporters haven't said (to a large degree, and I'm basing this on your response) that they wouldn't vote for Bernie, it hasn't stopped negative posts about him or his supporters. THAT'S the shit that makes no sense to me. It, quite literally, accomplishes NOTHING except building contempt.

[liberal_at_heart]

6. Sorry the Supreme Court argument doesn't work on me.

[Grown2Hate]

11. May I honestly ask why? I get it when it's theoretical and there isn't actually a vacancy;

that's used in almost EVERY election cycle.

But when there IS a vacancy, and your other option is having Trump/Cruz/Pick Another Piece of Shit Repub, choose the nominee, how can it not matter?

[liberal_at_heart]

18. I take many, many issues in to account when voting. Who will pick the next

Supreme Court nominee is only one issue of many. I vote based on who I believe will fight for SS, WIC, food stamps, wages, education, healthcare, family leave, less war, and minority rights. Frankly I think the Democrats are going to bend over backward to pick a nominee the Republicans will like. Obama is already proving that right now, so why should I base my vote based on who is going to pick the Supreme Court nominee.

[Grown2Hate]

24. I mean if it comes down to the general. I get your argument for the primary.

If we win the White House and the Senate (pleasantly surprisingly possible right now), why would we pick a nominee that the Republicans love? Garland was a clever pick because it backs the Senate Republicans into a corner, since they had no problem with confirming him before. But President Obama knows they're not going to put him up to a vote. It was to make them look horrible and hypocritical, setting us up even BETTER for the Senate elections in November.

So, do you feel there would be no difference in a Hillary/Bernie appointee or a Trump/Cruz appointee?

[liberal_at_heart]

27. I think the next pick will be very corporate friendly as usual.

Sanders is the only one who has said his pick would have to be someone that would support repealing Citizens United. Any other candidate running for President would pick a corporate friendly appointee. I cannot support that.

[Grown2Hate]

43. Fair enough. I'd settle for someone that wouldn't send us back to the Dark Ages

when it came to women's right, worker's right, and gay rights. But I can respect your point. That's why I'd certainly PREFER Bernie, but wouldn't hesitate to pull the lever in the general for Hillary.

[liberal_at_heart]

44. I prefer not to say whom I will vote for in the GE. That is my business.

[yardwork]

55. Congress would never approve your nominee.

[GoneFishin]

58. Ok. How about this? Boo! Booga, booga! Be afraaaaaid!

[pat_k]

8. kick 'n' rec!

[longship]

9. Welcome to the monkey house.

It's where animals throw poop at each other.

Yup! It's a childish thing to do, but apparently some people just like acting that way. So maybe a kid pitching a tantrum and a monkey flinging poop just wants your attention.

It's not about the poop, it's all about how much attention they can draw to themselves. More poop? More attention!

See how it works?

[Grown2Hate]

14. That's what it feels like. And I guess I just feel that we're better than all of that.

Then again, I was posting this same shit in 2008 during the Primary. I can't help it, I guess. Still love this fucking place.

[MFM008]

10. in the beginning

I was tossed up. Probably Hillary but willing to listen. Frankly I got turned off by the super aggressive tactics of some of Sanders supporters. I don't say either are the best, they are BOTH to damn old. Sanders 75, Hillary 69 ( this year). Honestly I don't feel Sanders has the temperament or longevity, Hillary has the experience and temperament but shes not as liberal as Id like, even Barack Obama didn't turn out to be the liberal we hoped for. I'm beginning to think I'm writing in Rachel Maddows name in November.

[Grown2Hate]

12. AH, a cogent discussion, with facts (and other than the write-in aspect, I somewhat agree with most

of that). But I do loves me some Rachel.

[MFM008]

15. she would be perfect

now there's something to toast!

[Grown2Hate]

17. ...

[okieinpain]

37. What makes you think she is a liberal. N/t.

[riversedge]

64. Well, there

are some areas regarding Hillary that I do not think she is as progressive as I would like--yet I do think she has benefited by working in the Obama Adm. She is a policy wonk and a work horse--and will try her best to get programs that benefits families.

Also--if you feel you must write in someone--I do hope you will be in a state that will go BLUE. The SC nominations are so very important--and the next President will affect the SC greatly for a LONG LONG time.

[Hortensis]

13. Next president will determine balance of SCOTUS

for the next 30 years or so. Either the hard right will prevail, with more power shifted away from the people to money and business, or power of, for, and by the people -- as intended by our liberal founding fathers.

This same struggle occurred over 200 years ago. A money- and privilege-based ruling class system or what we have had since. Jefferson, Madison, and liberal Enlightenment ideology won. That time.

[Grown2Hate]

16. Exactly my point. We can ACTUALLY get Citizens United overturned and get out of this

vicious loop. And NOT lose the progress we've made with gay rights. And not backslide to a dangerous place with women's rights (at least federally; some of our states seem to be losing their goddamn minds). I just won't allow that to happen (within my power).

[dreamnightwind]

22. You think Obama's nominee will do that?

I have little confidece he would. I read up on it a little, not many clues but it didn't look real good to me.

This is probably a little over the top, but provides some info.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017339286

I really don't see many compelling arguments at all left to support corporate Democrats. You'll no doubt disagree, your right to do so, mine to call it like I see it.

[Grown2Hate]

28. Oh, I don't disagree at all. But it depends on how you define support.

I SUPPORT Bernie Sanders for the nomination. But I would VOTE for Hillary (in the general).

And I've read just as many articles about how Garland is supposedly more liberal than you'd think, so it's hard to say.

But it's not hard for me to picture another Scalia type (or WORSE) if the Republicans take the White House. That we can COUNT on.

Good conversation, though. This is what I feel like has been lacking here lately (largely).

[dreamnightwind]

33. Right on

I agree with Sanders, if a justice isn't prepared to return our campaign financing to the people, they aren't worth fighting for. Every single issue we all care about is made more difficult by the concepts of corporate personhood, money as protected political speech, etc. At this point it's little more than a kabuki democracy, the puppets dancing to their donor's demands.

Where Garland fits into this, I can't say, which for me isn't good enough, it should be clear. The above issues are absurd, it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to support such views of campaign finance, and it's obvious what the outcome of unlimited corporate campaign money does. Sorry to rant, but the nomination was pretty disturbing to me for these reasons.

[Grown2Hate]

36. It probably would have been MORE disturbing to me if I didn't see it as complete political

posturing to make the Republicans look like the unreasonable babies that they are. I never thought for a second that even President Obama thought he'd be brought to a discussion (much less a VOTE or a confirmation). But only in the sense that you're right; his position is a little... muddy? I guess that's the right word.

I love that this is Bernie's litmus test for a nominee, though. Overturning Citizens United would be a HUGE step towards getting us back on the right track. Koch Brother, et al, would no longer be able to gobble up smaller local elections (which disturbs me even more than the money they pour into Senate/House seats or the Presidency).

[dreamnightwind]

60. I never saw it is political posturing on his part

but I'm that cynical. I agree with everything you said.

[Hortensis]

35. Actually, I disagree that any of us have a right

to use our vote irresponsibly out of ignorance and bias. Yes, we have the right to vote, but we also have the duty to vote knowledgeably. My recommendation is that you start educating yourself about the candidates you will have to choose among, including the scary GOP candidates.

You needn't worry that becoming knowledgeable would turn you away from Bernie to Hillary. But you would understand why 70-80% of all Bernie voters are glad to have two acceptable candidates to choose between for president, and, who knows, you might even join them.

And when you spoke of "corporate" Democrats you'd be able to point out who the problem ones were, not just wave some fat mental brush in the party's direction.

[dreamnightwind]

59. That stragetgy, though, just gets us forever played

We have a wonderful, viable candidate who has not played the corporate donor game, and who will represent US once elected.

The problem is not my lack of education nor bias, as you so rudely suggest.

The problem is that what you call a fat mental brush re the party is the most appropriate tool, since it is not a few but most whose agendas are beholden to corporate money, citizens be damned. Compounding this problem is that they have aggregated their considerable resources to fight the very person who governs without being owned, and that so many Democratic voters are still supporting more of the same corporate agenda.

We live in a time where addiction to militarism, unsustainable consolidation of wealth, and extreme climate change require new leadership that will drive policy from an entirely different perspective, or we will not survive. I am educated enough to know the reality of that.

[Hortensis]

61. You reject educating yourself? Come on.

It is your duty. Good information has never been more available.

I'll add that supporting a candidate out of ignorance of him and out-of-control hostility toward his opponent is hardly a compliment to that candidate. Even if your picture of him shifts and some of the ways it enlarges you might not like as much as others, Bernie will stand up to your scrutiny.

[dreamnightwind]

62. Wow you are really something

ignore was made for such. bye.

[Avalon Sparks]

38. Agreed...

Corps have bought both parties...

They keep their bases with wedge issues only (abortion, gays, illegals, guns), and the folks that vote for their party like a favorite football team.

Meanwhile US is becoming a Plutocracy and rife with corruption.

Term limits and campaign finance reform would change all that, but the current foxes aren't gonna push on those issues.

Meanwhile there's a large group of folks that are watching closely, and we are frustrated beyond belief because we want change so much.

And the rest of the Americans don't vote, either they have given up and stopped trying, "it's never gonna change so why bother?" or they just don't give a shit.

[cherokeeprogressive]

20. It's going to be alright. Twist some noses while everyone's frantic.

it's fun.

[BainsBane]

23. Probably no good reason

I can say in my case I've tried to provide another side of the misinformation continually directed at Clinton. And then I've posted stuff about Bernie because I get pissed off about how much false and vapid stuff is posted about Clinton. I won't post material I don't think is sound, however, so I try to maintain intellectual integrity in the process. If I learn something isn't true, I won't repeat it.

In all truthfulness, I respect people's choices in the primary. I very much respect the position you articulate above. But I just get so fucking fed up with all the vitriol about Clinton that I feel compelled to respond sometimes. And I really LOATHE the Trump humping, whether it's the moronic claims that Trump is better or the insistence that he will be president because Democrats have voted for Clinton over Bernie.

So I have to plead guilty as charged. I haven't been able to rise above it. I should have simply left the site rather than raise my blood pressure by reading the crap posted day in and day out. I have done that for periods at a time, but habits are hard to break, I guess.

Still, I believe some of what I'm written needs saying and has been woefully underreported in the press. Some have told me the first they've heard of some issues is reading my posts. That isn't a reflection on the strength of my posts as much as how lax the press is in living up to its responsibility to vet the candidates.

[Grown2Hate]

31. Fantastic post (as well as a GREAT avatar). And I do get that; the need to get in and

defend when you feel your candidate being attacked. Honestly, I think either Bernie or Hillary will beat Trump by double digits (hard to win when you're losing Latinos, Blacks, women, and even WHITE males in a recent poll!).

Also, LOVE the Hillary pic, brushing off her shoulder. Can we get a side-by-side of the famous President Obama gif doing that?

[Avalon Sparks]

41. As a Compliance Officer

I simply can't get past the Clintons (both) personal enrichment from the speaking fees. I don't even care that she won't release the content. I'm semi-alright with whatever amounts of the super pac money she has accepted.

Everything else I can overlook, even the DLC "right center" policies, and every charge and scandal going all the way back to whitewater. I would discount, I still have my yard sign from Bill's 1st election - hanging in my garage. When I heard she was running again I was so excited to have the chance for a two for one, both Clintons!

but when I learned of the speaking fees, him while she had political power, and her during the hiatus before she stepped back in, I can't even hold my nose and cast a vote for her.

It is influence money, and my problem is that it's gone to their personal finances, it's also the large number of speeches and the amounts.....there's no other way around it, it's to gain advantages, and that is where I draw the line.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

48. So YOU'RE the one who gave me so much workload before every OCC exam.

Kidding, of course. But I do completely agree with your post.

[Avalon Sparks]

53. Ha ha

Yes, I confess. 😀

[geek tragedy]

25. Either candidate would be a major downgrade from Obama, so people

are grouchy.

[dchill]

32. You're willing to say that about your candidate?

I'm sure as hell not willing to say that about mine.

Good to know.

[Bonobo]

26. Given your DU name...

I'm disappointed in your lack of hate.

[Grown2Hate]

46. Well, FUCK YOU, sir!

Kidding, kidding. I hate the hate. Does that work?

It's a hold-over pseudonym from when I got my first email account at 16 (now 37); I was a big Marilyn Manson fan. There was a line in one of his songs... "This is YOUR world in which we grown... and we will grow to hate you." So, there's some insight into teen-me. haha

[Bonobo]

50. Well done, well done! nt

[Rebkeh]

30. People are fighting for the soul of the party

It's not just about winning elections. At this moment, we have to decide who we are/are going to be and people are passionate about that.

I think Bernie supporters want the pre Reagan democratic party back while the others want things to stay the same (post Reagan democratic party). The ideologies are very different, we can't do both so ....

I can understand the conflict and confrontation, it can be constructive. But I agree, it goes too far when it gets too personal.

And then there are trolls and people that just like chaos and conflict for chaos and conflict's sake.

[Grown2Hate]

34. Great points. That's why I love passionate arguments about the actual issues, but HATE

the silliness that ensues. But I guess there's a very good chance that it eventually devolves into what we're seeing now when passions spill over. Oh, humans and our silly emotions.

[ZombieHorde]

39. I don't really know, but I suspect this phenomena is based off black-and-white thinking.

If I like candidate X, then candidate X is good and candidate Y is bad. This promotes a situation where where we feel obligated to defend everything candidate X has ever said or done while defaming everything candidate Y has ever said or done. Not a single inch can be given, so we put ourselves in a tight spot. Our beliefs may not match the situation, and so we become defensive, or even angry, when presented with information that contradicts our belief.

This is my current suspicion.

[Grown2Hate]

49. See? We need more SENSIBLE posts like this.

... just in case. Some trolls are easier to spot than others.

[jfern]

42. Go tell David Brock

[Fumesucker]

47. I posted this a while back in response to another post like yours wondering why we can't get along

Anyone who's been here for a while has heard all the arguments and gone through the minutia of each of them, now we're just shouting argument numbers at each other.

A man is sent to prison for the first time. At night, the lights in the cell block are turned off, and his cellmate goes over to the bars and yells, "Number twelve!" The whole cell block breaks out laughing. A few minutes later, somebody else in the cell block yells, "Number four!" Again, the whole cell bloock breaks out laughing.

The new guy asks his cellmate what's going on. "Well," says the older prisoner, "we've all been in this here prison for so long, we all know the same jokes. So we just yell out the number instead of saying the whole joke."

So the new guy walks up to the bars and yells, "Number six!" There was dead silence in the cell block. He asks the older prisoner, "What's wrong? Why didn't I get any laughs?"

"Well," said the older man, "sometimes it's not the joke, but how you tell it."

[Grown2Hate]

51. haha Makes sense. I have to stop letting it frustrate me, I suppose.

I did this same thing in 2008 several times... a call to unity. It all seemed to work out AFTER the primary. It's never going to happen DURING a primary, I suppose. But I'll be damned if I don't keep beating my head against the brick wall.

[PowerToThePeople]

52. Neoliberals and GOP

One and the same in my book.

[silvershadow]

54. A lot of the Bernie supporters are new to the party. They don't necessarily expect to be

beholden to your wishes (however enlightened and meaningful they may be). That's just one aspect of it. But it is one.

Here's another one: A lot us older folks, especially those who are not just ok with labor being part of it, but who still are hoping for someone like Bernie to stand up and say "We are going back to what worked for 80 years" are absolutely certain he is our last chance.

This election is historic in terms of what we have been in the past, and whether or not we are going to continue to stand for a few important things.

[fun n serious]

56. You should go to verified Twitter and facebook accounts

of all US Senators and read what they are saying. They know him (Sanders) No way possible that all but a couple see something strange.

[Grown2Hate]

57. And that's how my thread ends. With the exact FUCKING shit I'm calling out. Well done.

[SwampG8r]

69. Thats that olive branch he was talking about upthread

And notice as also predicted upthread he uses it as a whip.
Thats why.

[mmonk]

66. I don't start personal attack threads. I know what I'm fighting for.

But to be honest, I don't what the opposition is fighting for. I'm fighting for a better and more just country. I prefer issues, not look over there, there's a Republican.

[baldguy]

67. Because the GOP needs to have the weakest candidate to run against.

So their propaganda machine supports Sanders - to have him as the Dem nominee in Nov, or to hobble Clinton enough for her to lose.

So until Sanders and his minions stop being happy acting as GOP tools, and until they're able to recognize RW fascist propaganda for what it is & refrain from using it, real Democrats will have real issues with them. As they should.

[randome]

68. The anti-Sanders posts have finally caught up with the anti-Clinton posts. Parity has been achieved.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[bigwillq]

70. I love the infighting. Makes DU FUN!