Thom Hartmann said he was wrong about Bernie or Busters

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

Prior to today, he's been calling them idiots. Now says a large portion of them (obviously, no one on DU) have not been engaged in politics until Bernie came along with his Progressive message.

Just started discussion now.

[peacebird]

1. Silly.

[athena]

2. Great little graphic in your post.

I'm sure the right-wingers will love it come general-election time!

[peacebird]

4. She has her Goldman Handcuffs, earned them all by herself.

[Katashi_itto]

7. She forged every link herself.

[arcane1]

9. She's the only one to blame if that's the case n/t

[daleanime]

34. +1

[hopeforchange2008]

104. +1

[BlueCaliDem]

10. They. Don't. Care. It's all about "gutting the Democratic Party", right?

And what better people to support than those who want nothing but to do just that? After all, the SCOTUS hangs in the balance and we can't have a Democrat in the White House or a Democratic Senate! Think 2000, and the true reason the PTB wanted Bush in the White House. Then remember how the Roberts Court gutted the VRA, ruled in favor of Citizens United, stopped States from being required to accept expanded Medicaid, etc., etc.

https://twitter.com/CoreyRobin/status/707576881869144066

[dogman]

14. That's right, we need to remove the right wing cancer.

Take the Party back, nothing wrong with that. The GOPers have been fleeing the insanity in their Party and trying to mold the Democratic Party into their image.

[BlueCaliDem]

20. Since President Obama, the Democratic Party has been its most progressive.

Or do you refute that?

The Democratic Party is NOT and has NEVER BEEN the Green Party or Socialist Party. It's the Democratic Party that's evolved over time and, thanks in no small part to President Clinton and especially President Obama, has gone in warp speed forward.

What you appear to want is to turn the Democratic Party into the Green or Socialist Party. Not. Going. To. Happen.

instead of wasting your time trying to make something into something it's never been, why not get out the vote for Greens or Socialists and leave the Democratic Party well alone? Fund raise for Green and/or Socialist candidates on the local, State, and Federal level. You now have the power and the people and the money. Hop to it! And please take Bernie with you.

[dogman]

24. He's certainly no FDR.

Obama is a corporatist. Corporations have never done better. Warp speed to the third way, we need to get back to the people.

[BlueCaliDem]

38. You know what's so strange? Self-proclaimed Liberals said the SAME THING about FDR. Here's proof:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/8/11/891631/-

Therefore it is fitting that we lead off in this examination of the barrage of liberal criticism faced by President Roosevelt with quotes from the most famous (or infamous) detractor to his left, and perhaps the biggest threat to his presidency, Senator and Governor Huey Pierce Long of Louisiana:

"Long retained deep suspicions of some of Roosevelt’s associates. A day or two before the inauguration, he came to (FDR advisor and braintruster Raymond) Moley’s room at the Mayflower, kicked the door open, chewed on an apple, and said pugnaciously, "I don’t like you and your goddamned banker friends!"...and in May denounced the administration on the ground that it was dominated by the same old clique of bankers who had controlled Hoover. "Parker Gilbert from Morgan & Company, Leffingwell, Ballantine, Eugene Meyer, every one of them are here – what’s the use of hemming and hawing? (Schlesinger, The Politics of Upheaval 54-55)

About the New Deal in general, Long said:

"Not a single thin dime of concentrated, bloated, pompous wealth massed in the hands of a few people has been raked down to relieve the masses." (McElvaine, 244)

But Long was not the only demogogue taking shots at Roosevelt from the left. There was also the radio priest Father Charles Coughlin, who like Long was especially bitter about the way he perceived Roosevelt had let the bankers who caused the Depression off the hook:

The "Communist-infiltrated" New Deal was "a government of the bankers, by the bankers, and for the bankers," (McElvaine, 240)

Sound familiar to you, dogman? The (complain) game is the same. Only the actors have changed.

[dogman]

49. No, FDR got results.

But corporations and their supporters have been clawing back. It would be nice to see the people represented again.

[BlueCaliDem]

56. So did President Obama. Just because you don't want to acknowledge them, doesn't make them invisible

to the rest of the country. His hard-fought-for policies have helped tens of millions of Americans already. You know? The people who are part of the 65+ million who chose to re-elect him instead of voting for some third-party candidate to replace him?

[dogman]

57. He's done well considering where he started.

He is still a corporatist though.

[BlueCaliDem]

94. Thanks. I think he did as well.

And he's no more a, um, corporatist as Bernie is.

[dogman]

102. He was my Senator, that's where I learned he is a corporatist.

After he was elected to the Senate, he was asked by the people of Illinois to help fight the Com Ed rate hikes. He told them that he was in Washington now and that was a local matter. Of course when he set up his Presidential campaign he had the CEO of Com ED as his finance chair. I don't think Bernie would do that.

[BlueCaliDem]

106. You should do some research on Tad Devine before villifying President Obama on Com ED.

Just to keep things in perspective.

Understand, also, that Devine is paid a whopping $810k a month, so you know how important he is to the campaign (Jeff Weaver is only paid $9,900 p/month).

So let's disperse with the purity politics. Bernie won't win it.

[snowy owl]

84. soc security was on the table with Obama - forget labels They mean nothing.

Get real. And greens, socialists, et all are only labels. Look at the issues and forget labels. They mean nothing.

[BlueCaliDem]

95. Yeah, sorry, but poltical Parties have names (what you call 'labels') and you've got to choose sides

in the best interest of the country and our diverse people. Ranting about issues means nothing if you don't put teeth behind it. Those teeth is Congress. Without Congress, nothing gets done. I'm sure you've seen the truth in that since Republicans took control of the House in 2010, thanks to the purging of BlueDogDems.

If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for everything. Sage words to live by.

As for the Chained CPI...did it get through Congress? No? Move on.

[timmymoff]

113. No, again, we do not have to choose sides

We would rather choose right and wrong. You are choosing wrong. We won't aid you in your efforts.

[Depaysement]

60. One small problem

Hillary ain't no FDR.

[BlueCaliDem]

62. Good catch! You get a cookie. eom

[sabrina 1]

108. Oh please, not that again. What Social Safety Net programs has Obama instituted or Clinton to

protect the most vulnerable members of this society? Let's see, Obama after promising NOT to have 'committees' which he said in the campaign, were merely assembled to 'run rings around the Constitution' (his exact words) appointed the Deficit Committee and put on it some of the worst, most greedy, Corporatists from the far right, AND placed 'on the table' for their benefit, SOCIAL SECURITY! Wow, I remember the shock when he first appointed that committee, then the double shock when I saw who had appointed to it, and third, when he placed in front of them SS.

The ONLY reason why that Committee didn't privatize SS, the dream of the right for so long, was because of the enormous BACKLASH that was RELENTLESS from advocacy groups across the nation.

And when Simpson called Veterans 'no longer patriots' for taking their benefits, hundreds of thousands of Americans demanded that he be removed from the committee, but Obama ignored them.

Please do not use that old FDR falsehood. We've seen way too often and shouldn't even be seeing it on a supposed Democratic forum.

The closest thing to FDR we've seen in our lifetimes, is Bernie Sanders. But that is precisely why the Corporate Dems do not like him, they sure are not fond of FDR and yet, he remains the most popular president today.

You would think Democrats would be proud of that.

Actually DEMOCRATS are proud of it.

[BeyondGeography]

43. Sounds like you think Obama is a right wing cancer

Your words above. Am I wrong?

[dogman]

55. Wrong

My problem is with Third-way Dems. My post was about the highlighted portion of that post. I didn't see Obama mentioned in it.

[BeyondGeography]

71. Thank you

He gets lumped into that category a lot here. We can be very hard on us.

[Kelvin Mace]

37. YES!

I was amazed at how quickly he launched investigations into Bush-era war crimes, and turned Wall Street upside-down to punish the people who caused the worst economic calamity since 1929. And then, he cancelled the drone program saying that we have no right to summarily assassinate people, especially Americans without due process....

Oh, wait...

[BlueCaliDem]

42. Doesn't take away from the FACT that he's been the most progressive President since FDR.

He's not and never has been a peacenick nor a Green Party member. He's a Democrat. You want a Green Party president? Go get one, fund him/her, and canvass for him/her. Want a Socialist for president? Same spiel.

Stop trying to turn the Democratic Party into a Party it's never been and will never be. It's not gonna happen. Sorry.

[Kelvin Mace]

59. Depends on your definition of "progressive"

The Dems have been moving right since Carter. And the reason they have continued so far to the right that people can make specious arguments about how "progressive" the party is these day, is because people keep making excuses such as this.

[BlueCaliDem]

97. The root word in progressive is "progress". Any and all progress is better than NONE at all.

And even the most hateful Republican will admit that President Obama has been a Progressive (hence the 53+ votes to repeal ObamaCare).

People who subscribe to the "better to have two birds in the bush than one in the hand" are not progressive. They're ideologues.

[Kelvin Mace]

101. Not when "progress" is one step forward three steps back

[beltanefauve]

89. Peacenick?

Very telling.

[BlueCaliDem]

98. Yeah. It tells you I'm a realist living in the real world.

Come join me!

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

46. Can you name the Progressive Obama advisors and cabinet members

Last edited Tue Apr 5, 2016, 06:30 PM - Edit history (1)

Holder? Wall Street's top defense atty
Summers?
Rubin?
Bill Daley?
Emanuel?
Duncan? Head of charter school movement
Geithner?
Clinton? Bad trade policy and FA judgment (Iraq and Libya)
Ron Kirk? TPP

I called "Bullshit!" on the Obama admin shortly after he won the GE and started surrounding himself with Rubinites. But to your claim, "Obama is the most Progressive president since (FDR)," I say the bar is very, very low.

[BlueCaliDem]

47. I'd name the progressive policies progressive President Obama has gotten through inspite of

those horrid cabinet members.

But you know them so why should I?

Once again, the Democratic Party IS NOT the Green Party or the Socialist Party. Stop trying to turn it into something IT IS NOT.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

61. That's weak. You and I know Bernie is a proponent of the Progressive agenda. To make a hyperbolic

doesn't float. People hear "Obama Progressive" and "Clinton Progressive" but don't do their due diligence. They here Hillary wants "More of the same." To me, that means more Goldman Sachs and Wall Street attorneys. And she claims there's no way to prove she's influenced by Wall Street money when that's the only world she knows.

[BlueCaliDem]

66. No, I don't know that. Bernie is a talker, not a doer. He's all talk, no walk. As far as fire and

brimstone preachers go? Yeah, he's entrancing. But, personally, I don't care for those types of preachers. And I and 2.5 million more (and counting) people have most certainly done our due diligence, and we find Bernie horribly lacking.

[arcane1]

16. Exactly! Kick the conservatives out and make it a progressive party.

I can't imagine why someone would think that's a Bad Thing, unless they are a conservative in Dem clothing

[BlueCaliDem]

26. It doesn't surprise me that you don't take umbrage regarding the "gutting the Democratic Party" line

and, apparently, it IS a bad thing. Were it a good thing, the Green Party or Socialist Party would've defeated and replaced the Democratic Party LONG AGO. They haven't.

Stop trying to make the Democratic Party into the Green or Socialist Party. Join the Greens and Socialists and fund raise for them; canvass for them; find strong Greens and Socialists to run against Republicans and Democrats in all races from local to Federal. Work at that.

We'll see who wins.

The Democratic Party is doing fine and moving forward incrementally - just as over 65 million people wanted in 2012 and what 2.5 million more voters in the current Democratic Party want now.

[arcane1]

32. For me, principles always come first n/t

[BlueCaliDem]

45. For me, getting progressive things done for the people and the country are what matters.

My personal pet peeves take a backseat.

[azmom]

52. That's not going to be happening under Hillary.

She'll get things done, but they won't be progressive.

[daleanime]

35. It's about the truth, if that 'guts the democratic party'.....

maybe it needs to be gutted.

[pangaia]

73. You do understand, of course, that the Democratic Party is no longer the Democratic Party.

Right?

[BlueCaliDem]

74. Well, I know it's the Democratic Party I've signed up with in the 80's, and it's only gotten better

since then, especially under President Clinton and more so under President Obama. And it's far better than it was before the CRA. So yes, I know the Democratic Party from back then isn't the one we have today.

But the Democratic Party has never been the Green Party nor the Socialist Party, either. And it appears that many Bernie supporters are trying to make it so.

How about...not.

How about, instead of "gutting the Democratic Party", Bernie supporters start their own? You now see that you can fund raise in the millions per month, you have many candidates you can recruit (some are here on DU) and you'll get that Party you so long for.

The Democratic Party isn't and will never be the ultraLiberal's perfect Party. It just can't be. So why not support your own Party and finally get it off the ground to go head to head with the Democratic and Republican Party?

[pangaia]

79. I wouldn't know whereto begin.

UltraLiberal?

"You now see that...." YOU? Who is you? ME?

gutting ?
Green Party?
Socialist Party?
perfect party?

What in the world are you talking about?

[BlueCaliDem]

91. Why not take a nap? I'm certain it'll be clearer for you afterward.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

82. there's your disconnect. we are talking about BEFORE that. we remember

When they were for the little people first. Now they throw out platitudes and actively work against our interests

[BlueCaliDem]

93. *Before* the CRA?? The Democratic Party was the Republican Party. DUH.

[islandmkl]

114. since the '80s?....THAT explains everything...

you never were involved with the Democratic Party before its DLC/Third Way 'evolution'...

it's no wonder your interpretation of 'progressive' is so rightward...

you have no background in Democratic Party core principles...the ones jettisoned since 1988 except to pander for votes...

your professed timeline is all the proof needed to refute your allegations and conclusions...

you can have your Third Way party...enjoy it while it lasts because its end has begun...as a Democratic Party entity, anyway...

good news: the Republicans are making room to absorb center-right folks...

[lastone]

11. your complaining about a graphic?

when you should be complaining about HRC's ties to CORP $, me thinks the panama papers will weave their way to her front door. what will you say then?

[dana_b]

17. right? They are more upset about the silly little things rather than

the big issues that Hillary herself has been involved in - like supporting her buddies on WS!

[athena]

19. What ties to corporate money?

Please be specific. Otherwise, it sounds too much like the usual baseless smears and lies.

As for the Panama papers, there is no mention of Hillary in them. So how is this not just another baseless smear?

[dana_b]

64. panama papers and Clinton AND the President:

http://www.ibtimes.com/panama-papers-obama-clinton-pushed-trade-deal-amid-warnings-it-would-make-money-2348076

The Panama FTA pushed for by Obama and Clinton, watchdog groups said, effectively barred the United States from cracking down on questionable activities. Instead of requiring concessions of the Panamanian government on banking rules and regulations, combating tax haven abuse in Panama could violate the agreement. Should the U.S. embark on such an endeavor, it could be exposed to fines from international authorities.

“The FTA would undermine existing U.S. policy tools against tax haven activity,” warned consumer watchdog group Public Citizen at the time, saying the agreement would encourage corporations to thwart any U.S. efforts to combat financial secrecy. The group also noted that U.S. government contractors, as well as major financial firms supported by taxpayer bailouts, stood to gain from the trade deal's provisions that could make it harder to crack down on financial secrecy.
---------------------

So yeah, both she and the President pushed for this agreement even though they were told that it would hurt efforts to combat offshore accounts secrecy/illegal activities. I guess they just didn't care.

[lastone]

75. Nice find Dana!

Athena, what do you have to say now?

[dana_b]

76. David Sirota on twitter

he's a smart man

[Fairgo]

92. yes, I'd like to hear her response

[DisgustipatedinCA]

81. You better tell her to straighten up in a real hurry if she wants liberals to vote for her.

Right now, my arms are folded as I watch her lie her ass off on a daily basis about my candidate. Sigline stands.

[athena]

86. Enjoy President Trump, then.

What you don't seem to realize is that you will need her more than she will need you.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

90. Oh, I think I've been around the block a few times. So many times, in fact, that I'm immune

to all of the standard lines: I'll make Trump the President, I'll be responsible for Ted Nugent being on the Supreme Court. Blah, blah, blah. I'd like to point out that no one on this planet, save one, can do anything about my position. The one person who can change my mind seems to be functioning as a compulsive liar, so she isn't making real big inroads with me. I won't be coerced--I have a nasty habit of getting self-destructive when I feel coerced, as in, maybe I'm going down, but I'll have some say in the way that happens and in who goes down with me. That's a general statement about me; it's just how I operate. I convey it to you only so that you'll hopefully see that I'm utterly unreachable via coercion. Thanks.

[athena]

107. Who is trying to coerce you?

I don't care who you vote for. I don't even know you. What I posted is the simple truth. It's pretty ridiculous to use the word "coerce" to refer to someone posting on an internet message forum.

It's funny that Bernie supporters think Hillary "needs" them and seem to expect her to personally beg them for their vote. That's why I posted what I did: to point out that if Hillary loses the election, she will go off and live happily with her family, knowing she has spent her life working hard for her country. All the Bernie supporters who brag about their refusal to vote for her, on the other hand, will have to live with the policies of President Trump, which will probably hurt them a lot more than they will hurt Hillary.

It's happened once already in 2000. Some of us learned something from that experience. Some of us didn't, or were too young to notice.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

109. I'd allow persuade. Does that work for you?

This is a website where it's common for people to argue their point of view in hopes that it holds sway. Persuasion turns to coercion when you attempt to dangle guilt/consequence over your target's head. Anyway, the persuasion/coercion point is moot, since I'm not swayed by either. But do be up-front with yourself about what you're trying to accomplish.

As to Hillary, I'm reasonably certain we'll never personally know one another. So she needn't address me personally. I've strengthened my voice by adding it to a huge coalition of other voices. She knows what we want, and she's not willing to concede any of those things. So let's do this thing; lets get it on and see who survives.

[pangaia]

105. Well well..

1- Your first sentence is the only argument Hillary disciples have.

2- The stunning, demeaning, insulting arrogance of your second statement says it all. That IS Hillary Clinton.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

5. Also said Hillary has to figure out how to win them over. Idiotic, right?

Try again!

[peacebird]

8. No way Hillary CAN win them over. They know her to be a liar who will say anything....

She means none of the progressive stuff she has been mouthing. Bernie or Busters will not vote for Hillary. They will write in Bernie, or vote Jill Stein, or some may stay home.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

12. Lets hope there arent that many of these people you speak of, they sound unbelievable selfish

and maybe even childish.

And, they dont understand politics or government, AT ALL.

It isnt an all or nothing situation, EVER, in politics.

Neither side of the argument EVER gets it ALL.

[dogman]

27. Yes, people who love corporations are the unselfish ones.

People who love people are childish. Got it, no we can't.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

30. Do we put you down as Bernie or Bust?

[dogman]

31. Nope.

I can vote GOP lite. I voted for Bill. I sure would love to vote for an organic Democrat over a corporate hybrid though.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

33. The reason the DNC moved to the right was money. Pure and simple, the other guys had more

Resolve 90% of this problem by requiring all elections be public funded.

[dogman]

36. I'm for that.

And a National Holiday strictly for voting or total access to the ballot.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

39. Hell yes.

I would like to buy a microwave built in America by union workers.

I would like to buy a Hi Def 4K flat-screen also made in America by union workers.

But we have a long way to go before that can happen.

[choie]

41. bullshit

it was also trying to appeal to the conservative Dems in the South.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

44. That was part of it but DNC had to go to Wall Street to compete. Not bullshit, but yes in a way

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

18. Yep, people who were never engaged will remain that way

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

23. That isn't their fault...

It looks hopeless and many feel like Sanders is a last hope, that if he cannot defeat the system how will anyone succeed in doing so.

I am one of those Bernie or Bust types

[Maedhros]

77. They will become engaged if they are given something to vote FOR.

It's hard to get excited to vote for a Democrat who will offshore your jobs, just to prevent the election of a Republican who will offshore your jobs.

[AgerolanAmerican]

3. figuring it out

There are a lot of people who have been completely alienated from politics due to the suffocating layer of lies, deceptions, and corruption - Bernie, and only Bernie, brings these people back into play.

[HughLefty1]

13. Exactly

Why would I give a crap about HRC? She's in bed with the corporatists and clearly doesn't give a crap about the working class. I don't see much difference between her and the Bushes, Kasich, and countless other DNC/GOP elites. I guess I'd have to vote for her against a complete sicko like Cruz but otherwise I really don't have any motivation to get behind her.

[djean111]

6. Yes, they did not know that this is all a crooked game.

Grandson says voting for Hillary would be voting for the same old shit, and that it looks, from outside the political bubble, like the GOP does not have a whole lot different in mind. War, fracking, the TPP, college. Stuff like that.

That's on Hillary and the DNC and on what has actually happened over the years, not a tattered "platform" that gets ignored at will. They look stuff up. This stuff affects them personally. They don't look to Carville or Maddow or David Brock.

[BernieforPres2016]

48. Hartmann is starting to talk about the platform

Hartmann asked a Bernie or Bust caller on early what would it take? The caller said Bernie's platform, the whole thing. Then a couple of minutes ago, Hartmann brought up Bernie's platform and said it was basically a combination of Eisenhower from 1956 and FDR. But here's the problem, I don't care if Hillary said I'll adopt Bernie's entire platform (which she would never do), because she would only do it to get elected and then completely ignore it after taking office.

I was just watching video from the 2008 primary debates this morning and watched both Obama and Clinton tell Tim Russert that within 6 months of taking office that they would renegotiate NAFTA with Canada and Mexico. Obama has been in office for 7 years. Did he ever say or do anything about NAFTA that I missed? All I can recall is more free trade agreements with Columbia and Panama (and there are others I'm forgetting) and the push for the TPP.

[appalachiablue]

83. +1 No card check either although Pres. Obama said it.

[BernieforPres2016]

15. I'm watching, and Hartmann is at least starting to come to grips with it

But he still thinks if Hillary just picks the right VP and doesn't keep insulting young voters the Democratic Party and Bernie supporters don't feel like the race was stolen, Hillary and the DNC can bring all these new Bernie people (not just young voters, but previously disengaged voters) right into the Democratic big tent. How can he be this clueless and realize that there is 25 years of Hillary's record, including all the flip flops, the war mongering, the lies, the big money, etc. out there that anybody can find in 5 minutes? How does he think people who are attracted by Bernie's movement will look at Hillary and say OK, I can go for that?

Hartmann seems to think there is 10 feet of space between Bernie and Hillary and then 100 feet from Hillary to the nearest Republican candidate. I think there is 100 feet of space between Bernie and Hillary and then 10 feet of space or less between Hillary and the nearest Republican candidate.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

21. Love the way you framed it. I think he knows about the 100 feet, but can't say it

[Cal33]

25. I believe you are correct.

[AgerolanAmerican]

28. Agreed

The only daylight between Clinton and the Republicans is a bunch of mealy-mouthed rhetoric we all know she doesn't really believe in or care about any further than it furthers her ambition to power and wealth. Her priorities will not be any of the alleged differences between she and the GOP in social policy - they will be those things in which there is no daylight at all between she and the GOP: war and corporatism.

[Skwmom]

29. They need to worry about more than new voters and the previously disengaged voters.

From what I'm hearing there are plenty of long time voters that are fed up and not in the mood to fall in line in November.

Sarandon tried to tell them what she was hearing and they just attacked her rather than listening to her message.

[BernieforPres2016]

40. Funny that you would say that

Hartmann was just talking with a woman who was having trouble bringing her husband in the fold and Hartmann said that's the Susan Sarandon argument and talked about it in a disparaging way.

[dana_b]

69. Just like we all get attacked for saying this

They think that it's just us here on DU. They couldn't be more out of touch.

[closeupready]

51. I also agree.

[dana_b]

68. exactly. See my sig

I am surprised at Thom. I didn't realize that he was so willing to forgive such a pro corporate/war hawk Dem. Someone who has more in common with Reagan than FDR.

[jwirr]

110. And wait until he adds in the 33 State Democratic Party deal

with the Hillary's Victory Fund. They will not even want to belong to the local parties.

This is really a mess when we look at the future. I would not have a problem with a new party but we would all have to stick together in that new party or it would not have the numbers it needs to take over. It is easier to take over the existing party like the T-party did the Rs than it is to build from scratch.

[Skwmom]

22. Did you listen to the former Clinton supporter that said she would write Bernie in?

[islandmkl]

50. the one caller said he had not been engaged before and Bernie got his attention...

he made the point, THE POINT, and Thom admitted he had not considered it until recently...

there are millions of people who ARE NOT DEMOCRATS, never were...so 'the Party' means nothing much to them...they are looking for leadership to get the country out of the mess they find themselves in...'the Party' has no inherent attraction for them as it has proven itself in the past 30 years to be as much a part of the problem as the Republicans...

there is a reason the 'Independent' sector is so huge...and why Democrats are going to suffer by not addressing the modern era of political participation...it may not all happen this year, but these young people and not-so-young progressives will continue to push and push back...

the concept of 'Party' sounds so archaic to many...what does it matter what the name is?...when it doesn't define anything beyond maintaining some aspect of the status quo...(D) over here, (R) over there...and very little changes...

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

67. That was a great call. Thanks for posting this.

[litlbilly]

53. Ive been living in Oregon for 27 years, this is my first primary as a dem so I could vote for Bernie

my wife also. I am one of those people who owes allegiance to nobody. I voted for Barack Obama in the GE in 08 and 12 but I never voted in a primary before, this is the first time. I would bet a large number of Bernie supporters fall into this category and the dems, the dnc, and Hill know full well most of us would never even be here in the first place if not for Bernie's campaign. So those Hill shills comparing Bernie to Nader etc, its absolutely bullshit on its face.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

99. OR will go big for Bernie! i hear the campaign office opens tommorow

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/04/bernie_sanders_opening_portlan.html



Edit: Eugene office opened Saturday

[merrily]

54. Usually a fan, but a significant number of those Bernie supporters who say they will not for Hillary

have been engaged in politics and voting for Democrats. and only Democrats, for decades.

The business of calling Democrats who say they will not vote for Hillary, if she is the nominee, naive or Republican or whatever, is not just a zero as to party unity, but a definite minus. So is yelling "Supreme Court."

Give them something they can trust to vote FOR, without shaming them and MAYBE you'll get somewhere.

[Trust Buster]

58. Hartmann is right and wrong at the same time.

Sure, Sanders brought out people that would not have otherwise been engaged. But Hartmann neglects to contemplate the reason why. Any business that offers a free giveaway has lines out the door. Once the promotion is over, the people disappear as quickly as they showed up.

[Ferd Berfel]

63. Hartmann is fishing

to find out what the "Democrat" Party and especially Clinton, has to say to Bernie's supporters to get them to hang on one more time.

And when they find that out - they will simply SAY it.

Talk is cheap. SHow me.

The Head of the "Democrat" National committee has supported her corporate 300% Loan Shark buddies over the people

Obama just supported DWS after she sided with 300% loan Sharks, and, all of the utter failure she has been for the Democratic rank-and file. I'm sure the Corporate DLC, Blue Dog, Third Way Oligarch crowd thinks she's been doing great. But Most of us, not.

Obama put Social Security on the Chopping block gave us the Republican version of Health insurance reform, and is attempting to end US government sovereignty, all the way down to the local level with TPP.

The list is huge and and goes back decades, all the way to Bill.

If the cabal currently running the Democrat Party, including Hillary, tells you they (all of a sudden) support Bernie's platform (and hey "we always did, you peons just didn't notice&quot and we promise to go forward with it (just vote for Hillary THIS time) - Who's going to believe it given - History?

Talk is cheap, especially for this crowd. Show me. And by the way, it ain't gonna happen THIS time. The Democratic Party that I grew up with was sold to the Corporate elite and has become the "Democrat" Party. That will not change easily and sure as hell will not change by June. The Party as it stands, needs a total overhaul. Think that's going to happen any time soon? I don't.

You want me to believe? Earn it. Start taking actions that Prove to me that you can be trusted and that you support the rest of us. It took you decades to create this sewer, you can't change that with talk.

[BernieforPres2016]

65. I think you're right

He can't be as stupid about this stuff as he is pretending to be.

[Ferd Berfel]

70. sometimes he's genuenly OVER optimistic

it's that kum bi ya thing. I think it clouds the judgement sometimes.

[CharlotteVale]

85. Great post.

[Ferd Berfel]

88. Tx

[BernieforPres2016]

72. Did anybody just hear Nora from Oregon?

She was in tears, raking Hartmann over the coals and explaining that nobody believes Hillary and nobody is going to, that we know what she is. She was basically trying to tell him to wake up.

[Land of Enchantment]

116. I heard her and was astonished he caved...somewhat. The caller who

got me was the 'older' lady who said at her age she will not hold her nose again because she does not know if she has another election in her lifetime and I totally empathize and agree with her. I'm 62.

[pdsimdars]

78. I have been listening and am glad to hear him change his mind.

From my point of view, he seems to get an idea in his head and is very hard to change. This was very refreshing, because he has been really harsh on people.
I wish the Hillary supporters would listen. Most of these people are people who have been uninvolved in anything political and Bernie has gotten them involved and enthused. If you look at it from the perspective Thom is now seeing them, he is trying to see how these people can be brought into the party instead of calling them names and turning them off completely.

[Ferd Berfel]

87. not sure he's changed his mind

as much as trying a new angle.


and don't get me wrong, I've listened to, and appreciated Hartmann on almost a daily basis since Vermont.
I've learned a ton from him and, like many, it's where I learned about Bernie. I like the guy.

I just find his "support" of Bernie disappointing and left-handed.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

112. Seems he's uncomfortable with being responsible for creating the monster, for sure!

Dr. Frankenstein Complex

[2banon]

80. Hartman introduced me to Bernie (vis a vis Brunch with Bernie)

in the early part of the last decade when Air America was broadcasting in San Francisco.

Based on the nature of their conversations, I'm surprised to read here he's been calling out Bernie supporters as "idiots".

Seems rather antithetical to his professed perspective and values at the time. What changed?

[Rebkeh]

96. I remember the Reagan years

And W Bush...

It's scary to some, that some people actually can get into office, no matter how off the wall it seems .. I remember hearing. An actor? For President? No... and then... No, seriously, that guy? W? Nah. America will never let it happen.

I suspect it's more fear than anything that influences Thom's thinking on this issue. I don't agree with him, but I understand it.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

111. Maybe you misunderstood??? He had been say the people who won't vote for Hillary are idiots

Today he said he has a better understanding of Bernie or Busters and to characterize them as idiots is wrong. He's endorsed Bernie from Day 1 and the only host to have Bernie on his show since Bernie began his campaign.

[islandmkl]

115. Thom still wants to promote the thought that the Party can be saved...even

with Hillary...

he is pretty slow to hear that, for many of us, that isn't 'the Party' that we want to continue to support in its current form...

and that, for many, many more, 'the Party' offers no solution as an entity, while they see someone like Bernie as beginning to offer solutions to core problems facing America...

in reality, we all had a hand in getting to this point...which means we can all have a hand in getting things corrected...

Thom is right about 'get involved locally' to influence the Party...however, as a long-time listener to him and someone who generally agrees with most of his principles and views, he seems to have this underlying fear of tearing things apart to get the abscess drained and the wound healed...

his optimism is somewhat tempered by feathering the status quo one more time...something many of us have done one too many times...

[JoePhilly]

100. Thom better watch out for the bus!

[onecaliberal]

103. It can't be her lying or the fact that banks corporations healthcare pharma oil companies own her

Or the fact that she is condescending entitled and arrogant. She will say anything but t stands only for money.