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Tue Apr 5, 2016, 01:07 PM

Bernie or Bust mostly younger people you think?

Why else would they threaten to stay home? It only makes sense if they are new to this and dont fully comprehend the consequences. And this is not a knock on them, but a wake up call for the rest of us, we got work to do!


If you claim you are a liberal and you say you are Bernie or Bust, what you are saying is you will only proactively vote if you get 100% of what you want, something that NEVER happens EVER in politics.

No rational person or real liberal will debate the fact that there are huge differences, mostly on social issues, between Hillary and the other party, therefore what you are saying is it doesn't matter, either you get ALL of what you want (has never happened in politics, never will) or you walk.

This is why I think so many Bernie supporters, the true Bernie supporters, not the ones who only care about attacking Hillary, are for the most part new at this.

I would be curious to see what age demographics the Bernie or Bust group is broken out.

If you know a younger person who is Bernie or Bust, explain to them how this works, please.

Dont waste your time accusing me of bashing young people, not doing that and if anything I am giving them credit for being engaged, and now they need to know the rest of the story.

If you are an older Bernie or Bust person who fully realizes the consequences, then nothing I say will matter, so I guess I am not talking to you.

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Reply Bernie or Bust mostly younger people you think? (Original post)
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 OP
daleanime Apr 2016 #1
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #2
azurnoir Apr 2016 #18
brush Apr 2016 #30
azurnoir Apr 2016 #40
brush Apr 2016 #41
azurnoir Apr 2016 #42
PowerToThePeople Apr 2016 #92
Loudestlib Apr 2016 #129
Name removed Apr 2016 #3
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #4
mythology Apr 2016 #8
leftynyc Apr 2016 #19
Name removed Apr 2016 #24
leftynyc Apr 2016 #46
DisgustipatedinCA Apr 2016 #28
leftynyc Apr 2016 #50
Avalon Sparks Apr 2016 #118
leftynyc Apr 2016 #121
Avalon Sparks Apr 2016 #124
DebDoo Apr 2016 #51
leftynyc Apr 2016 #56
revbones Apr 2016 #65
leftynyc Apr 2016 #74
revbones Apr 2016 #79
leftynyc Apr 2016 #84
revbones Apr 2016 #91
leftynyc Apr 2016 #116
timmymoff Apr 2016 #67
leftynyc Apr 2016 #72
timmymoff Apr 2016 #76
leftynyc Apr 2016 #78
timmymoff Apr 2016 #80
leftynyc Apr 2016 #86
timmymoff Apr 2016 #89
Avalon Sparks Apr 2016 #120
leftynyc Apr 2016 #122
Avalon Sparks Apr 2016 #127
Vilis Veritas Apr 2016 #131
leftynyc Apr 2016 #132
Avalon Sparks Apr 2016 #133
Omega_X Apr 2016 #95
Avalon Sparks Apr 2016 #117
leftynyc Apr 2016 #123
Avalon Sparks Apr 2016 #125
leftynyc Apr 2016 #126
Avalon Sparks Apr 2016 #128
brush Apr 2016 #32
Name removed Apr 2016 #61
Post removed Apr 2016 #5
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #11
Name removed Apr 2016 #26
brush Apr 2016 #35
Name removed Apr 2016 #49
brush Apr 2016 #57
Name removed Apr 2016 #64
ibegurpard Apr 2016 #6
elana i am Apr 2016 #7
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #9
panader0 Apr 2016 #25
Kalidurga Apr 2016 #36
panader0 Apr 2016 #38
Kalidurga Apr 2016 #87
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #47
bobbobbins01 Apr 2016 #10
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #12
LexVegas Apr 2016 #13
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #15
Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #16
LexVegas Apr 2016 #21
Politicalboi Apr 2016 #34
wendylaroux Apr 2016 #60
Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #14
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #17
Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #20
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #22
Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #23
shadowandblossom Apr 2016 #113
brush Apr 2016 #39
Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #45
brush Apr 2016 #48
Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #55
wendylaroux Apr 2016 #63
brush Apr 2016 #111
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #136
wendylaroux Apr 2016 #139
silvershadow Apr 2016 #27
Politicalboi Apr 2016 #29
brush Apr 2016 #37
Carolator Apr 2016 #82
brush Apr 2016 #110
Carolator Apr 2016 #115
brush Apr 2016 #148
Name removed Apr 2016 #149
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #137
Name removed Apr 2016 #147
Joob Apr 2016 #31
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #53
Joob Apr 2016 #70
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #73
Joob Apr 2016 #100
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #134
CorkySt.Clair Apr 2016 #33
frylock Apr 2016 #88
onecaliberal Apr 2016 #43
JI7 Apr 2016 #44
Armstead Apr 2016 #52
bigwillq Apr 2016 #54
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #58
bigwillq Apr 2016 #59
m-lekktor Apr 2016 #62
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #68
frylock Apr 2016 #90
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #93
frylock Apr 2016 #94
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #96
frylock Apr 2016 #97
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #98
frylock Apr 2016 #99
iAZZZo Apr 2016 #66
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #69
iAZZZo Apr 2016 #71
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #75
iAZZZo Apr 2016 #81
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #138
Andy823 Apr 2016 #77
sadoldgirl Apr 2016 #83
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #85
Howler Apr 2016 #101
Jester Messiah Apr 2016 #102
MillennialDem Apr 2016 #107
dflprincess Apr 2016 #103
riderinthestorm Apr 2016 #104
jillan Apr 2016 #105
MillennialDem Apr 2016 #106
mehneh Apr 2016 #108
wildeyed Apr 2016 #109
amborin Apr 2016 #112
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #135
Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #140
shadowandblossom Apr 2016 #114
Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #119
LWolf Apr 2016 #130
kristopher Apr 2016 #141
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #142
kristopher Apr 2016 #144
Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #145
kristopher Apr 2016 #146
kristopher Apr 2016 #143

Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 01:09 PM

1. The problem is what progressives would get with a President Hillary, which is.....









































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Response to daleanime (Reply #1)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 01:12 PM

2. Nothing? Well, not deconstructing voting rights and women's rights, is better than attacking them

nothing might be good in some cases.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #2)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:52 PM

18. most of those things are being done at the local level not federal

and as far as voting rights go section 4 of the voting rights act was struck down by SCotUS under the Obama administration

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #18)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:35 PM

30. "Under the Obama Administration"? Really, as if Obama was all for it.

Stop the silliness. Place the blame where it belongs with Bush's consevative appointees to SCOTUS.

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Response to brush (Reply #30)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:54 PM

40. only 2 were Bush appointees and the same SCotUS also passed Marriage Equality

also under Obama

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #40)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:01 PM

41. Again, stop the silliness.

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Response to brush (Reply #41)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:03 PM

42. and I never said they were did I? simply that Obama is/was PotUS

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Response to daleanime (Reply #1)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 05:09 PM

92. No, they would get

 

another term of neoliberal right wing policy and another four years of them entrenching themselves into the system.

For me, this is the last chance. I am not young any more and likely don't have the strength for another decade of this shit.

Bernie or bust!

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Response to daleanime (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 08:27 AM

129. That's not true.

I guarantee she would start another war.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 01:51 PM

4. So Donald Trump or Ted Cruz as president is OK with you....got it.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:30 PM

8. And when these petulant fools find that Sanders can't

 

Wave a magic wand are they going to threaten to hold their breath if Republicans don't do what Sanders wants?

If they are going to not vote just because they get out voted by people who have overwhelmingly similar goals, I think it's laughable to claim they will somehow find the resolve to do something in the face of hard work against Republicans.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:53 PM

19. We know you're serious, newbie

 

We just think you suck at being Democrats and will probably take you a lot more seriously if you actually voted once in a while. You're no different than the nader voters - if you don't get what you want, you're going to take your ball and go home - yes, we know you don't see the differences between the parties and yes we don't really think too much of you for ignoring actual facts like women's rights, minority rights, voting rights, gay rights - so go ahead and throw all those groups under the bus while you remain "pure" and get NOTHING.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #19)


Response to Name removed (Reply #24)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:04 PM

46. I'm minority also, newbie

 

and I'll post whatever I damn well please. Now go get some manners before you order someone around again.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #19)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:27 PM

28. And there's not a damned thing you can do about it--you are powerless.

 

Sincerely,

A non-young, non-newbie member of both the Democratic Party and this website, Democratic Underground.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #28)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:06 PM

50. LOL - what on earth

 

makes you think I want to convince you of anything or than I feel nothing but disdain for anyone who claims there is no difference between the two parties? Ted Cruz just announced he wouldn't allow abortions for women who got pregnant by their rapist - go ahead and tell me again there's no difference between the two parties - go ahead and make me laugh.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #50)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 05:29 AM

118. Wedge issue

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Response to Avalon Sparks (Reply #118)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 05:56 AM

121. Perhaps

 

but it's a HUGE issue for many women as it tells us what they think of us overall. Are you a woman?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #121)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 07:26 AM

124. Yes I am a women

I hate to see the chomping away at reproductive rights, however I think we have bigger fish to fry.
I'm betting on neither party making much movement on this issue.

It just can't be the issue above all others, at least not to me.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #19)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:07 PM

51. I'd love to take me ball and go home

But Hillary already took my ball, popped it, and tells me over and over again that she didn't. And now, to add insult to injury, I'm now required to vote did her?

For the record, I have no idea what I will do if Hilary becomes the the nominee. But I do know that I am disgusted by the idea of voting for her. I find both Hillary and the republicans equally distasteful, for different reasons. And whether you can understand my point of view or not doesn't change how I feel.

And to answer your question, no I am not a millennial. And no, I am not a democrat, I'm independent, for precisely this reason - I refuse to be told who to vote for. I've voted both republican and democratic in the past, 98% of the time for the lesser of evil. This year, ifBernie isn't a choice, it's going to be very difficult to judge which is worse - the apple or the orange?

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Response to DebDoo (Reply #51)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:10 PM

56. If you aren't a Democrat

 

my post wasn't directed at you, was it? You seem to think I'm here to get on my knees and beg you to vote for Hillary - uh-no. I've made my disdain for anyone who doesn't vote for whoever has the D after their name pretty clear, haven't I? You get to do whatever you want and I get to feel the way I feel - see how that works?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #19)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:25 PM

65. Yeah, cuz "being Democrats" means leaving your principles at the door, right? nt

 

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Response to revbones (Reply #65)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:34 PM

74. Do whatever you like

 

And I get to feel however I like. I don't get on my knees and beg anyone for anything.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #74)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:41 PM

79. Nobody asked you to beg. But your insults and hyperbole aren't going to sway anyone either.

 

While you might think some "suck at being Democrats" many others think those sharing your opinions suck at being voters or having principles.

Many of those same people have voted before, probably more than you.

But please continue making all your insulting assumptions, see how many voters and friends it wins.

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Response to revbones (Reply #79)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:49 PM

84. I don't think I've been insulting in the

 

slightest. Unless my not caring about what you do is insulting to you. If you think arguing there is no difference between the parties - the EXACT same argument used by the loathed nader voters - is going to get you anywhere, knock yourself out. Since I've voted every single primary and election since I turned 18, I doubt very much they've voted more studiously than I have.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #84)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 05:03 PM

91. If you don't think your comments are insulting, then you have a lot to learn about civility.

 

The assumption that people who don't vote the way you want them to, are "ignoring actual facts like women's rights, minority rights, voting rights, gay rights" - is (aside from somewhat poorly phrased) quite insulting.

But go on, continue living your life thinking that everyone that doesn't share your exact beliefs or that couldn't toss their princples out the door, are wrong. I'm sure that will win a lot of friends.





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Response to revbones (Reply #91)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 05:03 AM

116. Using that definition

 

(which I don't), you are condescending and insulting as well. I'm pragmatic - if you find that insulting, that's entirely your problem.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #19)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:25 PM

67. I am 50 years old

 

and I think Hillary supporters suck at being democrats. They are damn good at being to the right of Rockefeller republicans though. And therein lies the reason the Bernie or bust people aren't joking. So nominate her, and accept the loss you sought so effortlessly.

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Response to timmymoff (Reply #67)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:33 PM

72. Your choice

 

It's like you're not going to be living in the same country as the rest of us. And like the nader voters in 2004, I'll have nothing but disdain for all of you who claimed there is no difference between the parties - and don't forget to repeat that bullshit on the same day ted cruz said women who have been raped shouldn't be able to get an abortion.

Go ahead and prove me right about the voters who only care about themselves. What some of you don't seem to understand is there are plenty of us that PERSONALLY would do much better financially with a republican in office - my taxes would go down, I'm not in the military as are none of my family - what the fuck do I care? But I still vote for the party that would rather help as many people as possible - even when it doesn't benefit me personally. So take your ball and go home. It tells me all I need to know about each and every one of you.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #72)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:36 PM

76. Go ahead and elect her.

 

I won't. If she doesn't win I imagine it would be due to how awe inspiring her candidacy is. I didn't need your permission nor consultation. America is in the balance of your primary vote. Oh for the record I will vote, just not the presidential race. Enjoy you are earning it.

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Response to timmymoff (Reply #76)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:40 PM

78. One of these days

 

you will get that I simply don't care what you do. Anyone who says there is no difference between the parties - on the same day that cruz says no abortions for rape victims, is (in my opinion) too stupid to vote.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #78)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:43 PM

80. We think anyone

 

who likes fracking such as Hillary isn't a democrat. We think anyone who supported trade deals like NAFTA and TPP aren't democrats. We think anyone who takes money from the private prison lobby isn't a democrat. We think anyone who couldn't decide where to stand on keystone isn't a democrat. We think anyone unwilling to fight for $15 minimum wage and nationalized healthcare isn't a democrat. We think someone as cozy with wall St. as one candidate isn't a democrat. And finally I think anyone who supports a candidate such as this, isn't a democrat. Like it or not. The Hillary camps biggest asset is fear just like the gop . Vote for me i'm not that guy. Weak candidate.

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Response to timmymoff (Reply #80)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:51 PM

86. Yawn

 

I've already told you I don't care what you think. And I'll remind you - Bernie isn't a Democrat either. He's simply using the party because he knows an independent bid was dead on arrival.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #86)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:59 PM

89. No

 

he did it because he didn't want to hand the gop the presidency. He doesn't have to, the way she is conductng her campaign is alienating plenty of dems, independents, and long lost dems of old. She inspires people to stay home. Without her last name she would be losing by 20, Pretty bad when you have been running since 2007 and can't beat a 74 year old democratic socialist with zero name recognition. Possibly the poorest ran campaign since Al Gore 2000.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #78)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 05:34 AM

120. Wedge Issue

Abortion is a wedge issue. Neither party in power is interested in passing anything of significant relevance on wedge issues. It's how they keep their base voters. I encourage you to research the meaning of wedge issue and understand the irrelevance of such.

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Response to Avalon Sparks (Reply #120)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 05:59 AM

122. Thanks

 

but I don't need lessons on what's important to me. You think it's just the abortion issue but it's not. It's an issue that tells us everything we need to know about how much control others want on our lives. If you think it's unimportant who gets elected to the supreme court (where the choice issue will be decided), that tells me YOU don't understand the way things work. Things that effect all of us - choice, voting rights, gay rights, environmental protections. Those all get decided at the supreme court level - not the legislative level overall.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #122)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 07:45 AM

127. If you're worried about environment issues...

The TPP and the other latest free trade agreements may pose more harm then sc.

Gay rights, and abortion ? Are we to be held hostage on these two issues for every election?

Why? These are distraction issues the country is divided on.
They will continue to be so for a very long time. Politicians run on these issues, and once in office generally do little to legislate either way.

The issue of gay rights is almost solving itself through awareness and public backlash towards states and governors who are attempting to or are passing idiot religious freedom protections.
I believe these issues can be solved and forwarded without worrying about the SC. Public opinion is positive and the majority on both these wedge issues. They are used now as merely scare tactics. Usually the Repugs use them, I'm disappointed Democratic voters are falling for it.

I'm not worried about the Supreme Court and these issues. They have little impact on our economic issues and the decline of the middle class. The US has governed fiscally conservative for over the last 30 years, economically we've lost a lot of ground.

What value is the right to have an abortion if a large percentage of women can't afford one?


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Response to Avalon Sparks (Reply #127)


Response to Avalon Sparks (Reply #127)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 09:34 AM

132. Whose holding you hostage?

 

Everybody votes on the things they find important - that's not holding anyone hostage. You've see the chipping away at reproductive rights same as I have and yet you call it a "distraction issue". What's a distraction about the federal (and state) governments getting involved in what I do with my body? That's not a distraction - that's a disgusting reality.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #132)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 10:36 AM

133. Hostage may not describe accurately..

Although it felt that way as you were urgently impressing the SC as it relates to a few wedge issues as the most important consideration of the election.

Now let’s count how many times Obama battled the anti-abortion special interest groups and caucuses working to deny access to abortions. By my count, there have been no recorded events where an executive order or veto was issued by Obama to safeguard abortion. There has been one executive order, but it was only to reaffirm that federal dollars would not subsidize abortion services” — something that the pro-life crowd should presumably applaud.

There has been rhetoric in response to Republican-sponsored legislation and the recent confrontation over Planned Parenthood – all hypothetical skirmishes that were mere political stunts.

Abortion is a wedge issue. Wedge issues create false dichotomies.

The fact that it would take constitutional amendments to reverse judicial decisions regarding abortion – which present a daunting political challenge no politician would willingly initiate given the current trajectory of public opinion – doesn’t matter.

Election coverage favors wedge issues. Consider how much air time has been dedicated to proposals of building a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border versus the ratification of the Trans-Pacific Partnership – a trillion dollar, privately-negotiated international trade agreement that will impact you and your household ten times faster than any fortified invisible line.

Illegals, guns, gays, and abortion.....the issues that appear to divide the parties. The Dems ain't gonna take yer guns away, the Repubs aren't gonna make abortions illegal again, the Gays have come along way gaining rights, and at the same time gaining public support - as the population ages, this issue will hopefully cease to exist. What we are seeing now I believe is the last gasp of the fundie indignation cause they lost, their views are in the minority.

Guns? Dems stopped pressing that several years ago, but look at slime bucket Cruz claiming the next SC will appeal the 2nd amendment. It's the same with abortion alarmists.

I'm sorry the states have made it harder, but every women in this country can get a safe legal abortion. That hasn't changed and I can't imagine it ever will. It's too valuable of a repub wedge issue to raise holy hell about during elections. It's a very valuable wedge for them, they wouldn't dare lose it. Even political pugs aren't that stupid.

Cruz's whole campaign is wedge issue after wedge issue, it's all you got when your policies suck and people hate you and your face?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #19)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 05:18 PM

95. They're Progressives first

They do suck at being Democrats and that's a great thing. The moment voters succumbed to party loyalty they ceased to try and win our vote. You say voters leaving when they don't get what they want is bad? Its the most rational move to make. Voting for a party and candidate that disparage your views is what makes no sense. You say they weren't likely to vote before? then you shouldn't be angry if they chose not to eat the crappy meal the DNC serves and stay home instead. Your whole post contradicts itself.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 05:28 AM

117. You mention only wedge issues...

Look up the term

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Response to Avalon Sparks (Reply #117)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 06:06 AM

123. You can follow me

 

and whine about wedge issues all you like. These are issues that are decided at the supreme court level - there is no other issue as important as the court. NO OTHER ISSUE. That you don't understand that and brush it off tells me you don't really understand the stakes here.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #123)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 07:31 AM

125. I do understand

Supreme Court, however Obama might get his appointment, there's been wavering from GOP, and who knows if the two Adams really will retire.

At this point I'm beyond done with supply side and the free trade agreements, and find these more relevant.

At my age I am done voting on wedge issues and the fear mongering they represent.

I will apologize for bringing up wedge issues three times to you though, and I'll admit Cruz is despicable ....I doubt he'll get the nom.

Its too far away to commit to the GE on any candidate imo

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Response to Avalon Sparks (Reply #125)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 07:36 AM

126. I'll be voting for whoever

 

as the D behind their name. And for the reason I already stated - not just the supreme court, the entire federal bench. Where issues really get decided - not just choice. Voting rights (it was said over 300,000 people were disenfranchised yesterday in WI), gay rights (the laws they are passing in the south this week are despicable). In my opinion, citizens united was the worst decision of my lifetime - needing a billion dollars to run for the Presidency is madness. I apologize if I wasn't clear that choice isn't the only issue I'm concerned about which explains my full attention on the court. That plainly isn't true.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #126)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 07:53 AM

128. I dunno let me think about it, I gotta get back to work

I will say Ted Cruz getting the nom will likely unite the Dem party to stand in solidarity against him.

His VAT tax will be devastating the poor, working class, and seniors.

Agree with you on citizens United.... Although even here, 120 million spent on Jeb didn't help him a dang bit, so how beneficial is it really to the fat cats. Koch bros lost out despite spending short of a half a billion at this point. Must admit I like seeing them throw money down the drain.

It's a horrifying conflict of interest though, and needs to be squashed.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:37 PM

32. You are uninformed. Bush/Cheney destroyed the economy

If you don't know that maybe you shouldn't vote.

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Response to brush (Reply #32)


Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #5)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:40 PM

11. I am mad at myself for responding to you, didnt realize who you were till just now.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #11)


Response to Post removed (Reply #5)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:42 PM

35. How much do you get for this.

We're not buying it. Any "progressive" who says they would vote for a repug is most likely a paid, repug troll.

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Response to brush (Reply #35)


Response to Name removed (Reply #49)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:10 PM

57. Did you read the Sanders interview by the New York Daily News?

Here it is:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511649233

Turns out he's little more than his stump speech and has no clue as to how he will get his promises enacted.

Read it and get back to us.

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Response to brush (Reply #57)


Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:05 PM

6. anecdote from yesterday

I personally spoke to an 80 year old who.said he's tired of Democrats. Said he will vote for Bernie but not Hillary. I have no idea if he will follow through but he's not particularly politically astute. Take that for c what it's worth. I don't think he's unique.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:23 PM

7. mostly independents

millenials are a substantial voting block, but independents with no party loyalties are the biggest. i don't know anyone in my corner of the world (none of them young enough to be millenials) who could be persuaded to vote for anyone other than sanders or trump. establishment candidates from political parties are non-starters. serious like.




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Response to elana i am (Reply #7)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:38 PM

9. Sanders or Trump...Dear god help us all.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #9)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:24 PM

25. So have you finally come out as a Hillarite?

All that phony "I'm a Bernie voter" was quite tedious. And now, your credibility is completely gone.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #25)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:49 PM

36. LOL that one was pretending to be a Bernie supporter?

I didn't even realize that one was playing that game. Unfreaking believable.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #38)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:54 PM

87. Very odd they keep thinking we can't read.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #25)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:06 PM

47. Nice try, that anyone would have Bernie and Trump in the same sentence, is ludicrous

But no, sorry to disappoint you, I am a Bernie voter

I wish these pretend liberals would stop lying

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:40 PM

10. Whats you're definition of younger?

I'm 35 and a lifelong democrat.

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Response to bobbobbins01 (Reply #10)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:41 PM

12. I got the impression it was 21-35 or in that ballpark.

Proof that some of them may not understand is the idea that you get all or nothing.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:43 PM

13. Anyone that is Bernie or bust isn't a progressive. They are a selfish psychopath. nt

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #13)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:45 PM

15. Not psycopaths, that is way too harsh. But if they are truly liberals in their

ideology and they do this, they are very selfish, which actually means they arent actually liberals.

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #13)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:46 PM

16. Voting for a candidate you prefer is selfish and psychopathic?

 

Does that make people who vote for candidates they don't want as president, unselfish and sane?

Do tell.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #16)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:55 PM

21. "Bernie or bust". Vote for your pref in the primary. Get in line for the GE. Simple. nt

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #13)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:39 PM

34. You're describing Hillary

 

A psychopath and a pathological liar. We are the true progressives.

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #13)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:16 PM

60. no a psychopath would be someone who actually thinks

Hillry is a progressive democrat,and then votes for her.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:43 PM

14. I vote...for the candidate I prefer.

 

However, I'm not young.

I'll settle for a "reasonable" amount of what I want. Which means I'll vote for Bernie if he's nominated. Which also means that I won't vote for Hillary.

But, old geezer that I am, I will vote for the candidate I prefer in the GE.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #14)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:46 PM

17. I get the impression your needs are first and foremost and if not met you will

vote accordingly?

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #17)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:54 PM

20. Don't you vote for the candidate you prefer?

 

What needs? If either of the candidates I'm considering are elected, they will try to raise my taxes. I'm an old man with few "needs". I'm well educated, have good health insurance, have a good income. What needs?

Here's what I don't need:

More wars
More poverty
More corruption in politics
More government spying
More "bailouts" of capitalists

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #20)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 02:56 PM

22. Clever but not funny. Sad too.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #22)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:00 PM

23. You didn't answer the question.

 

Don't you think that Hillary is a good choice. Will you vote for her rather than your preferred candidate? Does she meet your "needs"? What are your "needs"?

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #23)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 11:17 PM

113. Hola Tierra,

me gusta su nombre...

Not trying to persuade you, just chatting.

One fear for me this particular year would be that women would increasingly be fighting the battles our grandmothers did. The loss or gain of, potentially 3-4 supreme court seats to the Republicans is another issue that's fundamentally important to me this year.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #14)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:52 PM

39. You need to read Sanders interview by the New York Daily News

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511649233

He doesn't come off well at all.

Let us know if you'll still vote for him after seeing how vague and clueless he is about how he will get his promises enacted.

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Response to brush (Reply #39)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:04 PM

45. If he's nominated I will vote for him.

 

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #45)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:06 PM

48. Did you read the interview?

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Response to brush (Reply #48)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:10 PM

55. Yes. I did.

 

I don't expect him to achieve all the things he's running on. As for Hillary, I don't expect her to achieve all the things she's running on.

As for my third choice, I don't expect her to achieve all the things she running on.

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Response to brush (Reply #39)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:22 PM

63. omg! just stop!!!! nothing,EVER, could be worse then clinton and her nasty past.

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Response to wendylaroux (Reply #63)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 10:53 PM

111. Did you read it?

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Response to wendylaroux (Reply #63)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 11:09 AM

136. So Hillary would be worse than Cruz or Trump, got it.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #136)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 11:13 AM

139. you've "got" nothing. wake up brother.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:26 PM

27. I can't speak for the movement, but I was the first one on DU to use the phrase

 

(to my knowledge), and it was eons ago. I used it before the movement was ever heard of, and I sprinkled it liberally (no pun intended) around DU.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:32 PM

29. I'm 55 and female

 

Bernie or BUST!!!!!!

And I comprehend the consequences. I don't want ANY Clinton in the White House. Tough shit is my response. Call us Teabaggers, suppress our votes. The Clinton's can go pound sand for all I care. I know I won't get 100% of what I want. No one expects that except Hillary supporters. The younger ones are smart to go for Bernie or BUST. They see the real Hillary, and like us, they don't like what they see. We'll all go for Jill Stein if need be. Let her be the first female president.

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Response to Politicalboi (Reply #29)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:49 PM

37. Read Bernie's interview with the New YorK Daily News and tell me you still support him

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Response to brush (Reply #37)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:46 PM

82. I am new here but I think this is okay

 

Cross-posting my reply.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1653338

ETA: I am a 67-year-old, female, white liberal Democrat, in MN. I donate to and voted for Senator Sanders. We had a huge turnout for him, in our state. I am a Bernie or Bust pledge signer as is my husband.

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Response to Carolator (Reply #82)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 10:48 PM

110. It doesn't disturb you that he has no actual plan to get his promises for free college . . .

and healthcare passed. He had no answers for the journalists.

Welcome to DU, btw.

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Response to brush (Reply #110)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 01:02 AM

115. Oh, please.

 

He has stated many times over that he plans to impose a transaction tax on Wall Street.

It's right on his website.

The cost of this $75 billion a year plan is fully paid for by imposing a tax of a fraction of a percent on Wall Street speculators who nearly destroyed the economy seven years ago. More than 1,000 economists have endorsed a tax on Wall Street speculation and today some 40 countries throughout the world have imposed a similar tax including Britain, Germany, France, Switzerland, and China. If the taxpayers of this country could bailout Wall Street in 2008, we can make public colleges and universities tuition free and debt free throughout the country.

Health care:

This plan has been estimated to cost $1.38 trillion per year.
The Plan Would Be Fully Paid For By:

A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers.
Revenue raised: $630 billion per year.
A 2.2 percent income-based premium paid by households.
Revenue raised: $210 billion per year.This year, a family of four taking the standard deduction can have income up to $28,800 and not pay this tax under this plan.

A family of four making $50,000 a year taking the standard deduction would only pay $466 this year.
Progressive income tax rates.
Revenue raised: $110 billion a year.Under this plan the marginal income tax rate would be:

37 percent on income between $250,000 and $500,000.
43 percent on income between $500,000 and $2 million.
48 percent on income between $2 million and $10 million. (In 2013, only 113,000 households, the top 0.08 percent of taxpayers, had income between $2 million and $10 million.)
52 percent on income above $10 million. (In 2013, only 13,000 households, just 0.01 percent of taxpayers, had income exceeding $10 million.)
Taxing capital gains and dividends the same as income from work.
Revenue raised: $92 billion per year.Warren Buffett, the second wealthiest American in the country, has said that he pays a lower effective tax rate than his secretary. The reason is that he receives most of his income from capital gains and dividends, which are taxed at a much lower rate than income from work. This plan will end the special tax break for capital gains and dividends on household income above $250,000.
Limit tax deductions for rich.
Revenue raised: $15 billion per year. Under Bernie’s plan, households making over $250,000 would no longer be able to save more than 28 cents in taxes from every dollar in tax deductions. This limit would replace more complicated and less effective limits on tax breaks for the rich including the AMT, the personal exemption phase-out and the limit on itemized deductions.
The Responsible Estate Tax.
Revenue raised: $21 billion per year.This provision would tax the estates of the wealthiest 0.3 percent (three-tenths of 1 percent) of Americans who inherit over $3.5 million at progressive rates and close loopholes in the estate tax.
Savings from health tax expenditures.
Revenue raised: $310 billion per year. Several tax breaks that subsidize health care (health-related “tax expenditures”) would become obsolete and disappear under a single-payer health care system, saving $310 billion per year.

Most importantly, health care provided by employers is compensation that is not subject to payroll taxes or income taxes under current law. This is a significant tax break that would effectively disappear under this plan because all Americans would receive health care through the new single-payer program instead of employer-based health care.

Again, right on his website:

https://berniesanders.com/issues/medicare-for-all/

By now, it may have occurred to you the NY Daily News "interview" was a hit piece. Sanders has covered these topics extensively in all of his speeches and on his website, etc.

Thanks for the welcome.

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Response to Carolator (Reply #115)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 12:50 PM

148. Nice try, but new taxes have to get passed by Congress

You actually think a repug-dominated Congress is going to pass that?

Have you not been paying attention to what Obama has had to face for the last seven years from obstructionist repugs in Congress?

Sorry, but pie-in-the-sky naivete comes to mind.

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Response to brush (Reply #148)


Response to Carolator (Reply #82)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 11:10 AM

137. GOP is counting on that, they are grateful to you.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #137)


Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:35 PM

31. Bernie or Bust, I'm a selfish asshole apparently guess that makes Most of the Country assholes too

Because they don't even bother voting at all. Yes, first time voter here.

Don't worry though, we'll fix this mess of a political system you're happy with soon.

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Response to Joob (Reply #31)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:09 PM

53. If Bernie isnt the nominee, how is not voting going to fix it?

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #53)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:31 PM

70. I'll vote and write in Bernie anyways

It's okay, you got the mighty super delegate system

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Response to Joob (Reply #70)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:34 PM

73. GOP thanks you

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #73)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 09:34 PM

100. What? That fractured party? NP. DNC will follow suite if Bernie doesn't win

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Response to Joob (Reply #100)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 11:06 AM

134. I am aware there are many selfish voters.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:37 PM

33. Mostly just cranks

 

Addicted to whining.

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Response to CorkySt.Clair (Reply #33)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:56 PM

88. The majority of the whining is coming from Hillarians about BoB.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:04 PM

43. I'm saying I won't vote for someone to kill my grandchildren's ability to live on this

Planet and I don't give two fucks if you don't like it.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:04 PM

44. most are older like susan sarandon

They do this almost every election.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:07 PM

52. It's not the Bernie or Busters to be worried about

 

Its the large number of people who don't give a shit about politics because they are alienated from the way politics does not work, and by the duplicity of politicians -- and who are unlikely to flock to the polls just to blindly support Clinton just because she happens to be a Democrat. ...Or who decide to roll the Dice with Trump just for the sake of change.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:09 PM

54. I'm not Bernie or Bust. I'm more anti-Hillary.

 

I plan on voting for Bernie in my primary. If he does not win the nomination, fine by me; that's democracy. I would be very happy voting for the DEM nominee, except for Mrs. Clinton.
If it were any other DEM besides Hillary, the DEM nominee would get my vote without hesitation. I just don't like Hillary, and I don't plan on voting for her. Luckily I live in CT, and the DEM nominee will win my state, with or without my vote. I plan on voting for the DEM in every downticket race.

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Response to bigwillq (Reply #54)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:10 PM

58. GOP and their nonstop 20 year vendetta and campaign to destroy Hillary has

worked on some people.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #58)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:11 PM

59. Naw. She's awful all by herself (nt)

 

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #58)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:20 PM

62. not even. there is PLENTY of reason to be critical of her legitimately

Some of you blind partly loyalists who think anyone with a D after their name is worthy just refuse to see it.

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Response to m-lekktor (Reply #62)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:25 PM

68. LOL



Blind party loyalist

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #58)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 05:00 PM

90. Perhaps you're gullible.

Many of us know exactly who Clinton is, and what she has done. We didn't need the right-wing to point that out to us. In fact, many of us wasted a lot of valuable time and effort defending the Clintons against RW nonsense. I'm not doing that anymore.

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Response to frylock (Reply #90)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 05:12 PM

93. Or I know as much or more than you about her, am not at all gullible, and still consider her

much much better than anyone from the other side, as Bernie does.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #93)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 05:18 PM

94. I prefer bronchitis over dysentery.

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Response to frylock (Reply #94)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 05:19 PM

96. Absurd comment. If you are a woman who may die due to self aborting, maybe you will see then.

if you are a woman and dont believe this risk exists, you arent paying attention.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #96)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 05:23 PM

97. Women are performing self-abortions right now with Obama in office.

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Response to frylock (Reply #97)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 05:26 PM

98. Where the GOP runs thing, yes. Glad you agree that we MUST elect whoever the

Democratic candidate is.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #98)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 05:45 PM

99. That's why I'm voting for the better candidate.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:25 PM

66. op: "Why else would they threaten to stay home?"

 

so sad: you have no clue about this primary season.....

[center][/center]

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Response to iAZZZo (Reply #66)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:26 PM

69. Sure, you dont care if women die from self aborting, right?

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #69)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:33 PM

71. typical of your posts

 

typical of your posts, nary a reply to the preceding relative post, just subfuscatory word salad

what a hoot!

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Response to iAZZZo (Reply #71)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:35 PM

75. So Cruz wont work to outlaw abortions? News to me

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #75)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:44 PM

81. typical of your posts, nary a reply to the preceding relative post, just more obfuscation

 

real "big d" democrats don't fall for your right-wing bullshit!

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Response to iAZZZo (Reply #81)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 11:12 AM

138. So we will put you down for not giving a shit about those women.

You do understand this voting and politics thing is not a game, right?

You do understand there will be dire and deadly consequences if the GOP takes over the entire government, right?



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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:39 PM

77. The Bernie or bust group

Are probably right wing trolls trying to con people into not voting for Hillary if she wins the nomination. The only way they can actually get any of their "idiots" elected is to get all the gullible democrats they can to not vote for her. I just feel sorry for those who don't have enough smarts to figure out this is all a big con game and they are being played. It's so obvious here on DU who are real Bernie supporters and who the trolls are.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:47 PM

83. Now let's see what this is all about: HRC!

So just to make sure that everybody falls in line,

mention:

TRUMP,

Cruz,

SCOTUS!

Vote for her because otherwise the world
will cease to exist!

This is a nice kind of repug fear mongering,
and,sorry, this time it will not work

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Response to sadoldgirl (Reply #83)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:49 PM

85. Not fear mongering, it is the adult conversation. The adults see the forest thru the trees

adults like Thom Hartmann and others, who very much support Bernie, as I do, but are mature and smart enough to understand the big picture.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 09:36 PM

101. Nope.

I think it transcends generations.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 09:38 PM

102. I turn 40 this month, and I'm BoB.

 

So if that's "young" then yeah, it's younger people. If it helps, I'm very immature.

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Response to Jester Messiah (Reply #102)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 09:50 PM

107. I turn 36 this year, still view myself as young. That said I'm also immature and have good genes -

 

virtually every grandparent and great grandparent has lived well into their 90s.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 09:42 PM

103. Why is it that for 3 out of every 4 years

the left wing of the party is told we're irrelevant and our opinions don't matter. The 4th year comes, and we're still told we're not important to the success of the party but that we must just fall in line and support the status quo because, if the election is lost, it will be all our fault.



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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 09:48 PM

104. In my Bernie campaign office most of the BOB's are a broad age range

 

Today I canvassed in Milwaukee with Sue whose 76. She's a BOB because of the environmental concerns. Can't live with herself if she voted for Hillary and the planet was lost.

In general, virtually all of the BOB's I know in RL are a vast array of ages from young to old and pretty much all of them are environmentalists and cite Bernie's stronger positions on environmental issues and Hillary's support for fracking and the Keystone XL pipeline.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 09:49 PM

105. 60 here but if you want to call me young go ahead.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 09:49 PM

106. When your side is telling us to stfu and not even count our vote in the

 

primary, then YEAH IT'S BERNIE OR BUST.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 09:58 PM

108. To the Orginal Post: I have some insight.

 

Assuming that the youngest generation is the "Bernie or bust" force (I don't know if it is or not)

I think the reason they are voting (or in this case not voting) is because they have the short-end of the stick. They are just starting in the work force. In my opinion the average american works like dogs. The millennials are working like dogs and most of them have or know someone that has student debt. They might have to live with thier families or ask their parent for help which is harder on GEN x. They aren't reproducing or starting families because they are career-focused and in debt. On top of that they are being told constantly that they are going to inherit all the problems. They are the ones with the most to loose.

They are the ones with the most to loose and they haven't really experience the political "compromises" everyone is speaking of. They also are exposed to so many view points on the internet.

They think Bernie it the messiah to give them a fighting chance at buying a house or putting away for savings...I have not met a single millennial who has their own retirement plan already worked out.

They don't even care if Trump or Cruz could win. He's what the internet longingly refers to as a Troll. They know a real life troll when they see one. They probably don't mind letting the troll have the win as long as they are heard, and trust me by letting the troll take the white house silence will be louder than their vote.
Maybe I am too cynical when it comes to my view of the millennials rage, but I feel as if they were cornered too much.
Again, they already feel they are in a shit-show so they rather watch everyone else burn with them. Hell let's just blame the system that caused this generational issue (if it is one).

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 10:17 PM

109. People who don't understand how the two-party system

or democracy actually work? Also, don't understand the concept of loyalty. Not sure there is an age cut off. Judging from the posts here, it would seem not.

The thing is, most of us who are a bit older remember when Nader supporters were yelling about how Gore and GWB were practically identical. And they were all the way wrong about that. Didn't we learn that lesson already? Some people need more repetition to understand basic concepts than others, I guess.

But "progressives" love to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory. They will feel virtuous and superior while doing it and 10 years later, blame the fall out on the DNC "establishment" again

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 10:54 PM

112. my husband & I will write Bernie's name in, if he's not the nominee; we're not millenials

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Response to amborin (Reply #112)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 11:08 AM

135. GOP is grateful.

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Response to amborin (Reply #112)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 11:14 AM

140. Why, you must think that your vote belongs to you, not a party or candidate!

 

You must be one of those dangerous people who believe in democracy.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 11:28 PM

114. I appreciate your sanity.

Good to hear from people who support Bernie but aren't willing to throw everybody else's rights away. Thanks.

I would think most of them probably are young but I really don't know.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 05:29 AM

119. We dont have a nominee yet, so the conversation is premature. That said, maybe "the young people"

Dont like being condescended to by the likes of Steinem, Albright, or Hillary herself..

They dont like sneering interviews in the times where DWS bad-mouths them, and then goes on to defend putting pot smokers in prison, a position they overwhelmingly disagree with.

Just a thought.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 08:52 AM

130. No.

I don't think that, and I don't agree with your point of view on the topic.

Nobody, NOBODY, is saying, or has said, that they would only "proactively vote" if they get 100% of what they want. Because, as you mentioned, that NEVER happens, and nobody expects it to.

Plenty of rational and liberal people have, and will, talk about the perceived differences and commonalities between Hillary and the other party. What you might not be getting, or at least might not want to acknowledge, is that those BOB voters aren't focused on Republicans. They are focused on the state of the Democratic Party, and the long-term harm caused by repeatedly electing neo-liberals. Those who won't vote for her should she get the nomination? For many, it's not about who ends up in the WH, but about who ends up at the head of the party. AND...having a neoliberal in the WH harms the cause of justice, because Democrats in Congress won't fight harmful policy when it springs from a Democratic administration.

That understanding doesn't come from being "new at this." The BOB voters are not ALL young people. Even if they were, I applaud them for their energy, enthusiasm, and determination. I don't think they are naive, needing the rest of YOUR story to be informed. If the Democratic Party wants to be relevant to that wave of young voters, the Democratic Party will sit up and pay attention, not patronize them, and explain how they "don't get it" in condescending terms while not "getting" the reasons why they reject a nominee.

I am a 56 yo Sanders supporter. I have not signed on to any BOB movement. I'm also not signing on to any loyalty oath. I'm not going to engage in fear-based politics, partisan bullies simply spark opposition in my mind and heart, and I don't support the neo-liberal establishment at the head of the current Democratic Party.

You are correct: if all you're bringing to the conversation is cliche political talking points that neoliberals have been using to keep voters in line for decades now, then nothing you say will matter to me. Or to the voters you are concerned about.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 11:15 AM

141. I think it cuts across age brackets.

According to polling, most people who have been around the Clintons for the past 25 years tend to not like them.

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Response to kristopher (Reply #141)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 11:16 AM

142. Yeah, I dont like them much either, which has zilch to do with anything

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #142)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 11:20 AM

144. Nope. This isn't a "lesser of evils" election.

We're done with that shit.

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Response to kristopher (Reply #144)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 11:21 AM

145. Good, I will tell that to the dead women's families and the minorities that cant vote.

Must be nice to have so much privilege you can ignore so many.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #145)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 11:24 AM

146. My attitude is fixed by historical precedent that says your claims are full of crap.

First they laugh
Address of Nicholas Klein
Mr. President and Friends:
I did not expect to be called upon at this very moment at least; because of the presence of my good friend and colleague, who has just come to you from the City of Washington, with a message of encouragement I have no doubt. I was asked when I approached the platform to say some few words of encouragement to the Schloss Brothers strikers of Baltimore. I can only say this, that much more
than I could say this morning has already been demonstrated here on this platform and in this hall. The marching around of the men and the women this morning, and the standing up of the groups of delegates from the various cities, was indeed an inspiring spectacle to my mind.

I believe that they have been on strike for five consecutive weeks. The strikers now realize what war means.

And they also realize no doubt what Sherman said about war, because, my friends, a strike is a war, the two contending forces fighting like separate armies, each for its share of the spoils in this world today.

The speaker this morning, the Chairman or the co-worker of Baltimore, said that a settlement was about to be had, and he expected to announce before the adjournment of your convention a settlement of this strike. My friends, I hope that is true. I hope that the Schloss Brothers strikers are going to win a splendid victory! (Applause.)

There never has been such a wonderful opportunity for labor as presents Itself this very moment.

But, my friends, I have in mind this, and I say this to the strikers and I say this to the delegates. Labor just now is in the flower of its manhood. Just like this beautiful spring day, when the buds are beginning to open, so labor is coming into its own. But, my friends, that is due in great measure not so much to your stand either as workingmen or working-women, but to the peculiar economic status which has been brought about by the war. And I say to you, my friends, that perhaps after this war— and that is not so far off— a chance will come to you strikers, and to you workers, to show not by applause, but by action, how much per cent, you feel for organised labor. Because, my friends, after this war, there will be a great unemployment problem. The munition plants will be closed and useless, and millions of munitions workers will be thrown out upon the market. And then the time will come to show whether you strikers and you workers believe one hundred per cent, for organized labor or only 35 per cent. Because, my friends, my good friend is he who is with me when the storms are beating, when I am hungry, when I have no money, when everybody is spitting on me, when I am in jail; and then, when a man comes to me and says, "I am with you; have courage; I'm your friend!" that man is my brother— that man is two hundred per cent., because that man is not a sunshine friend. Sunshine friends organized labor can get now. Sunshine friends organized labor can get when it is victorious, when it’s on top. But the true test will come to you, strikers, and to you workers, in just a short time. To you strikers, who have been holding out five weeks. I may say a word of courage, and that is this: When you go into the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America, you are going into a real organized Union, not a bosses' union. You are going into a union made up of those who have ideals, of those who believe in you, of those who are working for you, of those who are using every energy and every effort, not for politics, but to make it better for you in the shop, not because of a label, but because you are workers and you produce all the wealth.

And I say to you, stick to that union. That union means just what it says. It’s a Union of organized forces In America in the needle trades.
So, my friends, without taking up any more time, let me say to you, and without being pessimistic, that there will be evil days coming. And they are not so far off. I wonder how many of the membership of New York and Chicago and all over the country are so solidified and will stick to the Union, to the Amalgamated, when the time comes— when the call comes, and you are put to the test. Will you be a real soldier in a grand army of labor, or will you be one of those stragglers who only come in to get two dollars or more wages per week? That is going to be the great problem.

And the education of your membership now, the solidifying of your forces now, the making of your lines strong now, my friends, is the big, big question, and it can. be done—anything can be done if a union of one hundred thousand members can be organized in three years like has been so wonderfully done here by your leaders and by your officers and your membership, my friends, anything is possible. Education is possible, and the winning of strikes is possible.

Let me close just now by giving you a little story that I have given you once before. I close by telling you the story, because I think it explains better than anything else, at this time, the great possibilities which can come to labor. There is a story told about the making of the first railway. There was an old man, it is said, whose name was Stevenson, who made the first locomotive. You know, just like in the labor movement they said locomotives were impossible. You had to have horses or cattle to pull a train; that nothing would go without something being attached to it there would be no loco motion.

And when old man Stevenson proposed a train— something to be run without the aid of horses or oxen, he was ridiculed. One day a test was made, and they laid two pieces of wood and upon these two pieces of wood they placed some thin sheets of metal, and upon that crude arrangement was placed the first locomotive.

And it is said in this story that thousands of people were out to see the first test of that locomotive, and of course the people all shouted, and pointed to their heads, and said the man was crazy, and they said the locomotive was out of question; it was impossible. And the crowd yelled out: "You old foggy fool! You can't do it! You can't do It!" And the same everywhere. The old man was in the cab, and somebody fired a pistol and the signal was given. He pulled the throttle open and the engine shot out, and in their amazement the crowd, not knowing how to answer to that argument, yelled out: "You old fool! You can't stop it! You can't stop it! You can't stop it!" (Applause.)
And my friends, in this story you have a history of this entire movement.
First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you.
And that is what is going to happen to the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America.
And I say, courage to the strikers, and courage to the delegates, because great times are coming, stressful days are here, and I hope your hearts will be strong, and I hope you will be one hundred per cent union when it comes! (Great applause.)

President HILLMAN: I am sure that Congressman London needs no introduction to this convention. I take great pleasure in calling upon Congressman Meyer London to address this convention.
Congressman London received an ovation, everybody rising and cheering wildly.


Congressman London's Address
Chairman and Delegates to the Amalgamated Convention:
It was with a great deal of hesitation that I left the city of Washington even for a couple of hours and absented myself from a part of the session. It has fallen to me to be a member of the American Congress at a time when the world is aflame, when every thing is in the crucible, when the flux is more rapid than ever in the history of the martyrdom of the race. And it has fallen to my lot in this hour of stress to represent a minority view— to speak for those who have been voiceless for a long time, to speak for the tomorrow or the day to come. And every ounce of my energy, all I have and all that I expect to develop, all my spiritual, Intellectual and physical strength is devoted to the task before me.

I always find inexpressible pleasure In addressing a gathering of union men. The greatest event in history was the organization of the first labor union. It is when the man who is at the very bottom of the social scale, when the worker upon whose shoulders rests all the weight and all the burden of society, it is when he arises, when he begins to claim a share in the world— not only better clothing and better shoes and a better home, but when he demands access to the world's treasures of learning and knowledge, accumulated for centuries, when he begins to draw upon the reservoir of wisdom and intelligence and of education, it is then that mankind begins to move forward.

It is organized labor— united labor— that will push the world forward, and when we speak of organized labor I know that your convention and your organization occupies at the present moment a unique position. It looks as if you are isolated. But that will not be for long. I know that all of you, your leaders as well as the men In the ranks, will use the first opportunity to see to it that you become a part and parcel of the united
labor movement which will embrace the entire country and the entire world.

Labor cannot afford to be selfish or sectarian or aristocratic. That has been the curse of the labor movement for years.

The clothing worker, the ladies' garment worker and the tailor,was the most despised of all workers. You know that old English proverb "It takes nine tailors to make a man." That proverb came about in a very peculiar way.

In olden days men were as foolish in matters of dress as women are today and it required a dozen tailors to make up one man. It required an extra tailor to prepare the half-trousers for him, and the vest, and the coat, and the lapels, and all sorts of frills, so that the proverb was created that "It takes nine tailors to make one man." But others have applied it as a term of reproach and contempt for the tailor, for the clothing worker.

And it was a term of reproach, thirty years ago, before the great labor masses in the tailoring trades saw the light. Now It is a pleasure, it is an honor, to speak to organized tailors because we see in them not only the clothing worker, not only the man who is in love with a bundle, not only the man who seeks the improvement of his immediate conditions, but a man who has a vision, who looks into the future, who studies and reads and thinks and who Is In the forefront of the labor movement, striving toward genuine progress.

There is nothing to be despised about the tailor today. No bricklayers' convention and no railroad workers' convention and no telegraphers' convention can present that volume of Idealism, of striving and craving for the better, that our conventions present. And that is why we are today in the vanguard of the labor movement. We have broken away from the past. We are not destroyers, but we have stopped licking the dust of the past. So far as our ideals are concerned, we always know that they will become a reality when you have your feet on the ground and when you fight now and here for Immediate improvements, always guided by a big broad desire to improve not only your own conditions but the conditions of the world. It is this combination of the ideal and the practical that is characteristic of our union. We cannot build the cooperative commonwealth unless you build better men today. The union builds and creates that soul which is essential for the world to travel forward.

The sailor is made on the sea and in the storm, the soldier on the firing line. The man that will build a future society must begin building his character and his manhood and his moral strength and develop his fibre as a fighter today and here in the fights for the betterment of the conditions of the workers.

I recall having read a beautiful sketch by one of the great Russian writers, Andreyev. He pictures a skillful aviator— a man who in a very short time acquired a reputation as the best aviator in the country. He had the very best machine. He was to give an exhibition of his skill and adroitness. And as he went up, the plaudits of the crowd accompanying him, he looked with contempt on the crowd below him. All was so petty and so small and and so sordid. And he said, “I will go up higher and higher and away from this crowd of small men, and away from the little things and away from the commonplace. And as he went up high he determined to make this circle still wider and still higher, and up he went higher and higher and higher, and wider and wider was the sphere that he soared away from the low, away from the contemptible, away from the little men and women who Inhabit the earth— higher and higher. He refused to come down. Every thing below was so sordid. But he did come down, and his machine came down, a dead machine with a dead aviator.

The Idealist who starts out with a complete disregard for things as they are, who believes that this world is sordid and small, that the fight for wages and for hours is too petty a thing, that what we ought to do is to reorganize the entire society, all at once, and build up a cooperative commonwealth beginning from the twentieth floor, is like that aviator. He will go up higher and higher Into wider and wider spheres away from everything small, but he will come down a dead man in a dead machine.

The man who fights today for things worth while is the man who builds the world.

I am glad to see that the great majority, if not all of the members of this union in this great crisis of the world, realizes that the last man in the world to scab against Uncle Sam is a member of organized labor and a member of a union.
I did my part in the Congress of the United States representing that body of thought which I as a Socialist stood for and stand for today. I know that labor, always capable of realizing the necessity of utilizing every existing force for the improvement of conditions will take the practical view. And what means the practical view? Is the word "practical" a contemptible term? No. What does It mean? When we use that word from the platform of a labor convention, It means that which is best fitted to serve our ideals and our purposes. It is in this sense only that we can use the word "practlcal” Any other method is destructive of the very things that we are striving for.
I have tried on the floor of Congress, as I am trying every where else, to destroy the idea that war times are not times for improvements. I tried in the last argument on the so-called sedition bill to prove that it is in war times that we are to make changes which are necessary to put society on a proper basis. It is when the nation is put to stress, when all its energy is called Into action, when all its resources are needed, It is then that we find what is wrong with us. It is then that we discover what is defective in our economics and in our politics. It is then that every weak spot appears on the surface.
Twenty-nine out of every 100 men who appeared to be examined for military service were found to be physically defective. There is a condition which we never understood before. That fact faces us today. And the fact is so apparent, so eloquent, so clear, so convincing that we cannot postpone the removal of that horrible fact until the war ls over. If we need strong men to fight the nation's fights and the world's fights in times of war, we insist that we shall have strong men In times of peace and forever.
Special students of American conditions knew that there was illiteracy in some sections, but now, when In the camps thousands of young men appeared who did not know enough English to understand a command, they realize that It Is essential that illiteracy be removed and that intelligence and knowledge are just as essential as bread and shelter.

We all knew in peaceful times that profiteering was a curse. But imagine the situation today. Some body asked me on the floor of Congress whether I would favor a strike in the trenches. I said "No." Why not? Because in the trenches the rich boy and the poor boy, the banker's son and the bricklayer, are standing shoulder to shoulder pouring out their blood. The rich man's son does not try to get into the poor man's pocket and pick out his change. The rich man's son will exploit the poor man's son over here in industry. The very reverse takes place of what takes place on the battlefield. And that is why we must be energetic, strong and courageous. We are not going to scab on Uncle Sam, but we don't want any profiteer to scab on us!
There are great problems now. I don't know whether the statesmen of the world are capable of solving the problems that face the world today. But the British Labor Movement, the French Labor Movement, the Italian Labor Movement, the Labor Movements of the World have their reconstruction program. They speak as brave men, not from books, not from theories, not from little pamphlets. No. In the university of life they have learned a lesson, and the English worker and the French worker insist that when the war is over and when he goes back home he should be not only a partner to the national debt of Great Britain and a part owner of the French national obligations, but that he should have access to the land and to the Industries and that he should be given an opportunity to live a free man's life in a free country.
And when you will be accused— and no one will dare accuse us— of lack of love for these United States, we say that, so far as we are concerned, no matter in what country some of us might have been born, no matter in what country the graves of our fathers may be, this country, where the cradle of our children is standing, is our home and our country! We shall not in this hour of crisis be weak. Now is the time for strong men.

Now friends, you delegates of a union representing laboring men, you are not all the labor movement unfortunately. There are still millions of toilers who don't know, who have not seen the light of organization. There are still millions of men who don't understand the mission of our movement. Let every one of you men and women constitute himself a teacher and an organizer and a leader. Read more, study more, try to understand more. Let not the word "workers" be a term of contempt. Organize, teach, don't throw the burden upon leaders only, because the leader has definite difficult functions to perform. The work of organizing must be done by the masses.
And not only in strikes. Oh, the strike unions! How I despise them! A strike organized, and all the people joining the union by paying in a quarter, and there Is a union man. A scab yesterday, a quarter made him a union man today.That is the wrong kind of unionism.
It takes more sacrifices than that to be a real union man. It takes more manhood to be a union man than the paying in of a quarter. Upon you rests the fate of the world. And so let every one of us become a carrier of light, a propagandist of Ideas, the zealot of a cause, the prophet of a better day, strong men, strong women in this terrible crisis where the world is being drowned in blood. We need every strong man. We need every Intelligent man, we need every Intelligent woman and more energy, more faith, more love for humanity!

A great ovation was given Congressman London upon the conclusion of his address.

Documentary History of the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America 1916-1918
Addresses of Nicholas Klein and
Congressman Meyer London
pg 51-55

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Original post)

Wed Apr 6, 2016, 11:19 AM

143. "If you claim you are a liberal ..."

Hillary isn't a liberal. She is an economic right of center Dem who pushes her agenda giving minimum necessary lip service to liberal positions on social issues.

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