The foaming frenzy over Sanders giving a speech at the Vatican may be

[whatchamacallit]

the stupidest fucking shit I've ever seen. No really.

[Buzz Clik]

1. Thus, another thread on the subject. Really?

[whatchamacallit]

4. Nearly all the defensive threads are responses to the endless stream of idiototic shit posted from

team hillary.

[Buzz Clik]

26. Not quite:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511706047
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511705609
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141408366
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141408086
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141407726
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511705466
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141406989
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511701767

[rock]

59. You're a card

Here's to you.

[senz]

12. All Americans should be proud of Sen. Sanders for this. Especially all liberals and progressives!

80% of the other threads were shameful sour grapes -- on the part of supposed Democrats -- hating every bit of it.

[riversedge]

82. I am glad Sanders is going to the conference. Good opportunity for him

to network with international academics.

[senz]

95. Got me again, riversedge. Our values are sooo different,

I keep forgetting how important title, position, status, and power are to Hill types. Me, I'm an old-fashioned Democrat who never got infected with the Repuglican/Third Way outlook. I like the old Democratic values.

Anyway, here is a little about one of those academics: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1701767

I know, I know: pure nonentity. Kissinger and Blankfein are so much more impre$$ive.

And here is something for you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1702479

[kennetha]

101. I think he's mainly going for R&R

[JoePhilly]

35. Its a foaming frenzy FRENZY!!!!!

[AgingAmerican]

2. Envy because their candidate wasn't invited

[MADem]

10. Hillary is pro-choice. A Vatican invite would not help her. She's been there, done that...

As FLOTUS and as SECSTATE, anyway.

[AgingAmerican]

17. Jealousy

Hence the agonized hand wringing and pearl clutching by her supporters

[Hortensis]

32. So true. And elected U.S. senator by New Yorkers

who know and like her, so she doesn't need to do photo ops in Rome to try to pick up Catholic votes in New York.

HRC's advantages, in fact, explain why Sanders is campaigning in Italy. It is the kind of bold stroke called for after all, that will generate a lot of video and may just help him a bit. He's also busily claiming to align his policies with the Pope's, the way Hillary has with President Obama.

Btw, the Pontifical Society of Scholars was established in 1994, and this will be their first conference Sanders has attended.

[MADem]

58. Founded in 94 by one of the most adorably BACKWARD Popes of the last century, JP2.

He had the cherubic face but he was HELL on women. The PA was designed to thwart the complaints that JP2 wasn't getting the "straight scoop" because he was surrounded by sycophants and users and power hungry insiders who had mendacity and greed at the forefront of their agendas.

The PA is autonomous, they don't answer to the Pope, but they do provide INPUT--which Popes can--and often do--IGNORE.

It's an academic bunch, and they are fairly collegial--there are more than 20 and less than 40 of them, generally, and they all know each other.

I doubt this will get him the play he wants or hoped for.

Lying about how the Pope invited him to "The Vatican," too? That was just cheesy, dumb and stupid.

Pretentious pretender.

[Hortensis]

86. 20-40 "insiders" who all know each other? Lol.

And I thought delaying or cutting into their break while an American politician "spoke" was funny before. Oh, well.

What I hope any of Bernie's people note, if they haven't stopped reading, is the significance of that knuckle-dragger conservative pope serving in 1994. His ascension was practically synonymous with the right-turn of America with the election of Ronald Reagan, a move to the right that continued through the 1990s and into the new century. A move to the right that in fact occurred around most of the planet. Big waves. Far, far too powerful for the Democratic Party to roll back.

And, look what's happened since as a new leftward wave swells. Obama. Pope Francis. Hope. Change.

[MADem]

87. Yeah, it's a little club, basically. They're pretty arcane.

It is a new academy, relatively speaking, within the greater "Pontifical Academy" which was founded by Pius back in the thirties. They study all sorts of things of a "social science" nature and they report to the Pope. The idea is to make the Pontiff more aware. They are not bound to him or by him, their opinions are their own.

Pope Francis is a great guy, in that he is revealing the "secret sauce" wrt what beliefs are firm and which have wiggle room. This is stuff the rich and connected have always known. This is why John Kerry goes to communion despite being divorced. Same deal with Teddy K when he was alive--even while the parish priests and that asshole red-faced "spokesman" for the US Catholic church screamed that it was WRONG. There are "rules" ...and there are rules. Frank took the lid off with his latest "Joy of Love" document.

But thus far, he hasn't actually changed a thing. And he's unlikely to, either--he 's just hoping to outlast the hateful old hardliners, and maybe turn some of the younger members of the faith into activists for change--a little more "Berrigan Brothers" and a little less "Cardinal Above The Law."

[Live and Learn]

43. Bernie is more pro-choice than Hillary. Simple fact! nt

[MADem]

50. You know, spouting crap like "Simple fact!" doesn't create a truth. You should understand that

it affects your credibility negatively when you attempt that sort of thing.

"Simple fact!"

[Live and Learn]

57. But you already know it is true. Why pretend otherwise? Don't you support your candidate's stance

on the issues?



http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/03/hillary-clinton-late-term-abortions

On one issue in particular, the difference between Sanders' unmistakable stance and Clinton's qualified one is becoming increasingly apparent—and it's an issue that's as close to a litmus test for Democratic voters as any: abortion.

During a Fox News town hall on Monday night, Clinton and Sanders were asked about their position on late-term abortions. Sanders' stance was easy to discern: He opposes abortion restrictions, full stop. Clinton's answer was murkier. She began her response to moderator Bret Baier with a broad defense of a woman's right to an abortion, mentioning the current Supreme Court case involving Texas' anti-abortion regulations and the continued Republican attacks on Planned Parenthood. But Baier persisted on the matter of late-term abortions, asking, "Just to be clear, there's no—without any exceptions?"

Clinton replied, "No—I have been on record in favor of a late-pregnancy regulation that would have exceptions for the life and health of the mother."

In the exchange, Clinton seems to support limited bans on late-term abortions after a fetus is viable (about 24 weeks into a pregnancy). Her campaign has said nothing to contradict this. Asked to clarify Clinton's position, a campaign spokesperson responded in an email:

[MADem]

60. The life and health of the mother comes first. I have no problem w/that.

I do have a problem with someone having a psychotic break wanting an "abortion on demand" a week before her due date, and I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

[Live and Learn]

62. So you admit that you too are less pro-choice than Bernie? Glad we got that established.

By the way, women aren't having psychotic breaks and wanting abortions on demand so your (and Hillary's) fears are not justified.

[MADem]

66. So you admit you have no compassion for the seriously mentally ill?

What you need to admit is that you have no grasp of nuance, and you're a "gotcha game" player.

Someone who is not in possession of their faculties cannot make a decision of that sort. If that's "anti-choice" well, you go to town on that. Termination of a fetus with severe deformations who will not have quality of life is a very different situation from the one I described.

By the way, women aren't having psychotic breaks and wanting abortions on demand so your (and Hillary's) fears are not justified.

Prove it.

[Live and Learn]

73. So you make up wild tales and post them as fact? Good to know. nt

[MADem]

88. No, that's YOUR wheelhouse...LOL! nt

[Live and Learn]

89. Pretty sure you would win any poll on that one. nt

[MADem]

90. Oh, you are? Really? You're sure I'd "win a poll?" LOL! nt

[Live and Learn]

91. You certainly enjoy your own posts. All that laughter... nt

[MADem]

92. I'm not the one running around yelling about polls. If you don't like my laughter you should stop

saying things that are so doggone amusing.

[Live and Learn]

94. Yelling? Wow, you are sensitive. nt

[MADem]

96. No--I'm not sensitive. I do find you funny, though. nt

[Silver_Witch]

115. Actually she has said 20 weeks

With limited exceptions. It should be between a woman and her doctor -PERIOD!

[Silver_Witch]

114. Actually quite true Hillary believes the government has a say about

When you can have an abortion. How many weeks you are etc. She is also willing this "negotiate" with republicans putting abortion limits on the table to start co versation with Republicans. Bernie believes the Governme t should NEVER be involved Period. Great townhall compares the two stances. Google is your friend look it up and see what Hillary says about limits. She is not really prp-choice.

[Tarc]

3. You lengthy insight into the matter is bold and insightful, a true treasure to the reader's eyes

Is it downloadable? Are there t-shirts?

[CoffeeCat]

7. Because you people are so petty and small

there is really no need to waste time on a formal treatise and analysis of your jealousy and negativity.

I think the OP gave you guys the amount of attention you deserve.

[Tarc]

11. Why thank you, I AM pretty and small

Size 0 on my shirt, please and thankyou.

[MADem]

14. 'YOU PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

People who use the "YOU PEOPLE" descriptor have issues of their own....

[Schema Thing]

20. You small, petty people

[MADem]

93. Grrr. Grrr. nt

[CoffeeCat]

40. Your obvious issue is sour grapes

So you lead this ridiculous charge to tear down Bernie's invitation to speak at this Vatican City conference.

No one is buying your "I know, let's pop their balloon!" schtick.

What you say has no bearing on Bernie going to Italy. What you say is nothing more than a reflection of your negativity and ugly sour grapes.

Good luck with that.

[MADem]

68. Your obvious issue is MEEEEEEE.....you can't help it--you have to talk about ME ME ME all the time!!

You tell me what I am, you tell me how I feel, you tell me what you think I think, you put your words in my mouth...you're all over MEEEEE like a cheap and funky suit, you are!!!

[senz]

18. Truer words were never spoken.

[Ed Suspicious]

54. A-fucking-men!

[CalvinballPro]

9. There are always T-shirts to sell to the target demo. nt

[arcane1]

5. Lots of very nit-picky criticisms, too.

[MADem]

6. It's not a "foaming frenzy." It's being rather stunned at a political miscalculation that is so

OBVIOUS, craven and PANDERING.

It demonstrates that Sanders doesn't understand American Catholics and he's reaching, desperately, for voters he is not gonna get.

It looks like he pushed in, thus he gets the blame even if his buddy Jeffrey "arranged" this for him.

Basically, Bernie caused a shitfling between the President of the Academy and her subordinate, the Chancellor, and I can guarantee you that plenty of the friends of Margaret don't appreciate the way she was blindsided on this. It won't help him.

Especially with his "The Pope invited MEEEEEE" nonsense.

Bernie just didn't think this through.

[whatchamacallit]

13. Well your side ought to know something about pandering

[MADem]

27. Bill O'Reilly is an American Roman Catholic. So's Brian Williams.

You think either is going to say "Oh, look--Bernie went to the Pontifical Academy and spoke for ten minutes...I'ma gonna vote for him!!"

Dream on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Catholics

http://www.ranker.com/list/catholic-celebrities/celebrity-lists

[CalvinballPro]

15. It's hard watching a johnny-come-lately Democrat like Sadners side with anti-choice Vatican.

That's just me, though. I'm just an actual Democrat, unlike the phonies and fakers pretending like this is some kind of brilliant coup on Sadners' part.

[HERVEPA]

53. With your posts. you should be ashamed of your username.

The strip was insightful and very humane, your posts are juvenile. Calvin has you beaten by a mile.

[CalvinballPro]

55. Goodbye forever.

[bigbrother05]

76. That would be on point if it were meetings re: choice/birth control

But this is a meeting about global income inequality, something the Pope has spoke out on since he came into the post and is clearly a prime issue for Bernie.

Bernie expressed his interest in the topic with the Vatican and they (or the Bishop alone) decided that having a N. American politician speak would be meaningful for them.

The Vatican has some of the canniest operators in world diplomatic circles, seriously doubt they are being played by Bernie.

[revbones]

25. Yeah, Hillary responses are certainly not "craven and PANDERING" as you put it.

Showing up to take the subway - and failing.

Preaching at a church.

It only looks like anything is wrong, because your camp is so invested in trying to bring Bernie as low as Hillary, that you'll seize on anything to do so.

[MADem]

29. She turned that lemon into some of the best lemonade I've ever seen!

Maybe you missed it: http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/hillary-clinton-pokes-fun-nyc-subway-swipe-fail-mayor-de-n553751



More people take the subway (and get annoyed when the card reader doesn't work) than are Roman Catholics--and particularly, Roman Catholics who pay attention to obscure conferences at Pontifical Academies.

You know what looks wrong? A POTUS candidate flying through the night to take ten minutes off of the pee break at an obscure conference, after lying to the world and saying the "pope" invited him.

[revbones]

34. So she turned it into something not craven and pandering?

Didn't think so.

If you think the after-the-fact on her failure is great, wait until you see the after-the-fact on the Vatican speech...

[CoffeeCat]

42. You seem personally invested in making sure your narrative sticks

You seem obsessed. Your outrage is completely disproportional to the reality here.

We are simply happy that Bernie has been invited to speak at this conference.

Why is this so important to you?

[MADem]

47. AND 3....2.....1!! Now the conversation is all about MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

You seem personally invested in making sure your narrative sticks
View profile
You seem obsessed. Your outrage is completely disproportional to the reality here.

I'd say whoever smelt it, dealt it, toots! Let's ask you the same question....


Why is this so important to you?

[CoffeeCat]

51. Holy buckets...thar she blows!

Do you come unhinged like this in the afternoons or is this an all-day thing for you?

Here's one that will really send you soaring...Did you know that in the press release which announces the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences conference, that Bernie is listed first in the list of participants? They are touting his involvement.

So now what? Is this the part where you barf up your lunch and your head spins around 360 degrees?

Quick! I need an old priest and a young priest! We've got a live one here, folks!

Possessed by sour grapes and misguided faux outrage! Get a stretcher and some jumper cables STAT! Hurry, before the bed levitates out the window!

[MADem]

63. More about MEEEEEEE!!!! Why do you LOVE MEEEEEEEEEE so much, Coffee Cat? You chase MEEEEE

all over the board and call MEEEEEEEE names!!!

Now you're calling me UNHINGED? Do you kiss your mama with that mouth full of personal insults?


And you really think it's cool to make "Catholic jokes" while your guy is going to the Vatican? Who told you that was a good idea?

You're pretty offensive, ya know!!! Proud of that?

CoffeeCat
51. Holy buckets...thar she blows!
View profile
Do you come unhinged like this in the afternoons or is this an all-day thing for you?

Here's one that will really send you soaring...Did you know that in the press release which announces the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences conference, that Bernie is listed first in the list of participants? They are touting his involvement.

So now what? Is this the part where you barf up your lunch and your head spins around 360 degrees?

Quick! I need an old priest and a young priest! We've got a live one here, folks!

Possessed by sour grapes and misguided faux outrage! Get a stretcher and some jumper cables STAT! Hurry, before the bed levitates out the window!


WOW--words fail me! You mock the institution where your guy is going to give a speech...."You people" sure are something!!!

[CoffeeCat]

79. Hey, I'm not making jokes!

Possession is not a funny thing!

Really terrible on the neck and on old priests who don't call for back up quickly!

My 13 years of Catholic education allow me to speak freely about such matters. It's in the contract I signed at my confirmation.

You used ten exclamation points for four lines of text. Save some for the rest of us, why don't ya?

[MADem]

81. Yes, you are. You think people don't know about Linda Blair and the pea soup ?

"Your mother sews socks that smell...?"

Please. Born at night--not last night.

And since you're worried about MEEEEEE and my "ten exclamation points," let me give you a few more.

They're FREE you know ...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sheshe2]

113. I guess stalking is okay here now.

On Mon Apr 11, 2016, 09:29 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

Holy buckets...thar she blows!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1706653

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

There is no need for personal attacks, comment is rude and cruel. MADem is a respected poster on DU. Calling MADem unhinged is against TOS. This poster seems to be stalking MADem. Stop this! Stop the stalking, it is becoming creepy.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Mon Apr 11, 2016, 09:40 PM, and voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation:
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stalking? Lol. Get a grip, alerter.

Comment is fine and you know it.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Over the top personal insults, clearly TOS violation. Thread shows MADem is being stalked here. Hide it!

[polly7]

72. Snork

[Mother Of Four]

80. I am so glad you post here ...

That... was awesome.

[Doctor_J]

85. So he should have turned down the invitation?

[lunamagica]

8. Foaming frenzy on DU. Very little (or no) impact anywhere else

[senz]

23. A U.S. Senator will speak at a global conference on an urgent issue.

You can't make that go away, lunamagica. So maybe it's best to call up the genuine democrat/Democrat within and let it rejoice with the rest of us.

[lunamagica]

30. Please. You know very well this has ben politicized. The Sanders camp has posted over

and over again how this is virtually an endorsement for Sanders.

Since when has the Pope and The Vatican received such admiration and respect here on DU? GMAB!

This is all about winning NY

[Hiraeth]

44. Foaming frenzy on DU. Very little (or no) impact anywhere else

your own words.

[CoffeeCat]

45. No one said anything about this being an "endorsement" for Sanders

Sanders surely didn't say this was an endorsement. He announced that he was invited and that he would attend.

When you have to make shit up to make your point, you automatically lose.

Sour grapes all around everyone!

[lunamagica]

46. THere have been many posts saying this is as good as an endorsement

[senz]

52. The invitation was received in March. Bernie mentioned it a few days ago.

That is not politicization. Some Sanders supporters on DU have rubbed your noses in it. That, as you know, is personal, based on months of insults from y'all.

I can't speak for others, but I love this Pope's concern for the poor and the marginalized.

There is no way this conference was set up at the Vatican for the purpose of helping Bernie win NY. Really. Think about it.

[TM99]

109. Well Sanders now leads with Latino's nationally

and as you may know, many are Catholic.

And yes, because y'all seem to focus on the superficialities of personalities and persona, I am sure y'all don't get why it is an honor for the US to have a man whose life has been dedicated to social and economic justice to speak at an international conference on that very same topic. We can disagree with the horrid stances of the Catholic Church and its pontiff, and still acknowledge the good that can come from just such an event.

[COLGATE4]

64. A global conference. 27 acdemics plus the leaders of a couple of small

South American countries (both of whom are better known for having been recently rebuffed by their followers when they attempted to make changes to their respective constitutions so they could serve as 'President for Life') who will chat and tell each other about all they've done to solve world poverty in a small unknown academic institution that's an offshoot of the Vatican. Stop the presses for the solutions for urgent issues that are going to come out of that conference!

[unapatriciated]

24. yup

when I tell all my family and friends about the the outrage it has caused here, they ask is this for real? They don't understand why this is a thing. We are a very large Catholic family and this is a non-issue (even for those who support Clinton).

[lunamagica]

28. I haven't see this get any media coverage. Not even Matthews, Hayes, Maddow or O'Donnel

have said a word about it

[senz]

83. MSNBC is in the bag for Hill. You haven't seen us complaining about it?

The entire MSM ignores him. He is a threat to their vast corporate power and profits.

Of course they're not going to mention something good for Bernie.

[HooptieWagon]

16. Camp Weathervane has lost 7 straight,...

...and has declining poll #s in NY, CA, and nationally. Hillarians desperately seeking something to be poutraged about.

[MADem]

41. "Lost" states with few voters....lost delegates? Not so much.

Bernie's last win was a tie.

Smell the BERNt...toast.

[polly7]

19. I agree. They turned something nice that may possibly help to affect much-needed change

into something completely insane.

[yellowcanine]

21. So you thought you would contribute to the foaming frenzy.....

[MADem]

48. Sounds like the name of a great fizzy drink.....I'll have two foaming frenzies, hold the garbage!!

[Punkingal]

22. I'll drink to that!

[CentralCoaster]

31. This is an honor and an endorsement that Hillary could never, ever get.

And that's gotta hurt.

The Vatican. I think the Pope lives there.

[Sky Masterson]

36. I remember back in 08 when they were selling "Michelle Obama isn't proud of America"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4694968
People that have nothing will grab at anything.

[pdsimdars]

37. First a representative from St. Francis singled Bernie out, then the Vatican.

What's next?

[MADem]

70. LOL--the Catholic Primary School, or the Church?

37. First a representative from St. Francis singled Bernie out, then the Vatican.

[CharlotteVale]

38. LOL, I was thinking wailing and gnashing of teeth, but foaming frenzy works.

[Vinca]

39. People should be proud an American was invited.

After all, we're primarily known for greed.

[MADem]

74. Mary Ann Glendon is a PA member. So's Kenneth Arrow.

Kevin Ryan and Joseph Stiglitz are members.

USA is well represented at EVERY academy meeting.

[Barack_America]

49. You ain't kidding. They're trying to stir enough shit to make...

...the Vatican cancel on him.

That's their plan here.

[BeyondGeography]

56. The trip itself is the stupidest fucking shit I've ever seen

No really.

Trying to think of one time in history that a major candidate flew to Rome (or similar distance to a foreign country) and back for a 10-minute speech three days before a must-win primary. Forget about the flub over the Pope's role/non-role and every other detail of the trip that has been mangled in the telling.

It has never been done before for a reason: It's fucking dumb.

[whatchamacallit]

61. Yes, anything that's never been done before is dumb

Shouldn't you be pleased by his "dumb move"? Funny, you don't seem pleased.

[COLGATE4]

65. You have a thread winner here! nt

[geek tragedy]

67. McCain tried to do it in 2008 when he talked about suspending his campaign nt

[arcane1]

75. It's not "the stupidest fucking shit" you've ever seen. You're making that up.

[melman]

69. It's pretty stupid but

the stupidest is still the outrage over Susan Sarandon's ping-pong club. That one is hard to top.

[DrDan]

71. he is now the headliner - according to some

a late afternoon 10 minute offering between a discussion and a break seems to be translated as "headliner"

your description is accurate

[Kalidurga]

77. It is also the funniest

It's not quite as funny as Hillary's #CPTime joke https://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/hillary-clinton-and-bill-de-blasio-set-off-cringing-with-painful-joke-about-colored-people-time/

That's funny cuz it could cost her a whole lot more votes than not being invited to the Vatican.

[Uncle Joe]

78. Stay tuned, I have total confidence that it can and will be exceeded.

Thanks for the thread, whatchamacallit.

[nolawarlock]

84. I don't think it's stupid at all ...

In fact, I've been lurking for years and watching discussions and this was what actually made me finally sign up and comment.

In the interest of transparency, I'm a Hillary supporter but I'll pull the lever for Bernie in November if he gets the nomination. That said, this whole thing has me concerned.

I can understand the schadenfreude on the part of some of the Bernie folks since many of them clearly recognize that this is a tacit endorsement of sorts and who wouldn't want the endorsement of God's representative on Earth? That so many in that camp are non-religious, secular, or outright atheist aside, pay no attention to that. We've still got God on Bernie's side and that makes it ok. A little like the Right Wing and crazy claims of Cruz, Rubio, and others with Jesus on their side, but, well, ok? Yeah, no. It's not ok.

I am very grateful that we have a Pope who understands social justice issues, but the bigger issue is that he is one in a chain of leaders that often skew very much against such issues. This is the same organization that burned heretics and crowned emperors. Whether it was the Pope or the Vatican or Vatican-associated organization that invited Sanders, the whole thing reads like an endorsement and I think it's wrong of any Vatican organization to try to game elections. Granted, everyone group with power tries to game elections, but shouldn't they be above that by now? Charlemagne is long dead.

Here's what's particularly perplexing to me about all this: the loudest battle cry of the the Sanders supporters has been that corporations are running our lives, corporations are depriving us of basic standards of living, corporations are gaming elections. I think this is true to a large extent (though I don't believe Hillary is the $hill they accuse her of being). However, in the face of all of this outrage over corporations, Bernie and his supporters are throwing their lot in which what is arguably the oldest, most powerful, and one of the wealthiest "corporations" on the planet. Yes, the current Pope, in what is ultimately a transitional role when one considers the long scope of history, supporting economic causes Sanders agrees with, but at what long-term cost?

And yes, the Church itself has grown so much and has done many works to be celebrated and admired when they're aren't promoting sexist leadership policies and attempting to control women's bodies, but this cheapens the Church's spiritual mission and sends us back to the days of Charlemagne when they should be rendering under Caesar that which is Caesar's.

[Fumesucker]

97. Welcome to DU.. The Lurkers Group is thataway >>>>

More seriously, practically all the forces in our society work to hide the poor and their plight from our delicate sensibilities, anything including Bernie going to the Vatican that raises awareness of the issue of vast disparity in wealth we see as a positive thing.

I suspect he will perform similarly at the Vatican as he did at Liberty University, a place he was also invited to come and he spoke to their disagreements before trying to find common ground.

[nolawarlock]

98. I didn't exactly feel great about ...

... the Liberty University thing either, for Sanders or Mr. Two Corinthians (which, every time I hear, a joke forms in my head ... "Two Corinthians walk into a bar and ..." but I digress).

The largest plank in the platform of the Sanders campaign seems to two-fold: the plight of the poor but also the undue influence of corporations on policy. This just smacks of hypocrisy but I at least give kudos to the fact that most of the Sanders supporters will at least admit that this is clearly going to gain votes. Most of the Sanders people on my Facebook are totally denying that as either a motivation or an effect so clearly there are more educated (and less disingenuous) voters here.

I frankly see no difference between Corporations trying to game an election and the Vatican. I don't like either instance.

[Fumesucker]

100. Corporations are immortal and amoral entities given force of law

Corporations simply don't speak to moral subjects beyond shareholder value and the increase or loss thereof, morality is not part of the realm of the corporation.

As much as I may object to portions of the moral precepts held by the Catholic Church at least they have some moral precepts beyond greed is good.

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy and it behooves me to make a cautious alliance for defined purposes that may prove beneficial perhaps even mutually.

[nolawarlock]

102. What kind of morality are we talking here?

The inquisition? The Witch burnings? Suppressing science at all costs? Or, in the more modern sense, spreading STDs in the name of suppressing birth control or controlling women's bodies via abortion? I mean, yes, they've done some good, especially with this new Pope, but he is simply one figurehead in a long span of histories filled with injustice.

I am glad you understand that the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. Too few people get that.

I am absolutely against undue corporate influence even as I am a capitalist of sorts, more likely to support social democrats than democratic socialists. I don't believe that corporations should be allowed to grow so large that their failure can destroy the fabric of society but then, I guess the Church hasn't managed to destroy us all so after many centuries in power. If they aren't immortal, they're certainly the next best thing.

But this is also not that cut and dry. It is not just an issue of the church having "some moral precepts" while corporations are driven by "greed is good." Even if greed was the motivator behind it, the fact remains that the governor of Georgia would have just signed one of the most anti-gay pieces of legislation in America had corporations like Disney, Salesforce, and others not threatened to boycott. Sure, maybe greed to have access to workers who fell into those oppressed categories drove that decision, but the results were a moral good so I don't think we can just say Catholics Good, Corporations Bad. Both have much to answer for.

[Fumesucker]

107. When it comes to GLBT rights Hillary evolved on the subject only recently

Five years ago she would have been on the side of the Georgia governor so that's not a particularly good metric to judge your chosen candidate by and if you want to judge one candidate by that why not.

Bigotry hurts the corporate bottom line in the end and it costs them little or nothing in today's atmosphere to oppose it, just like Hillary.

Perhaps you should try again, I'm not sure what Bernie is doing by talking to people who disagree on some things that's so horrible.

[nolawarlock]

99. And as for whatever lurker's group there is ...

No worries. I may or may not go back there. It's rare that I have an issue I feel so irate enough to comment about but this was it. I didn't like the Liberty University thing either. At least these corporations pay taxes (though nowhere nearly enough—I get it). These large religious organizations get to stick their thumb on the electoral scale for free. It's wrong. I doubt it will stop me from pulling the lever for Bernie in November if he's the nominee—though I think his economic policies have the potential to hurt small businesses while justifiably going after large corporations and I wish he could find a way to deal with one without hurting the other—but this kind of influence concerns me deeply. The Catholic Church as an entity has a far, far longer historical footprint than Falwell's university, with countless atrocities against the little guy (including their own Catholic members), countless undue economic influence, and, heck, they've even got a wall.

[Fumesucker]

103. A national campaign isn't a place to discuss subtlety

I suspect that Bernie is a lot more subtle than can possibly be meaningfully revealed in the pomp, circumstance and nonsense of campaign season.

Clinton to my rhetorically sensitive ear talks a lot without saying any more than she can possibly help. Saying what you mean is hard enough, a legally trained mind being deliberately vague and elusive is a wondrous and mind bending thing to behold.

It depends of course on what the definition of "is" is.

The Lurker's thing is a very old internet joke from well before DU.

[nolawarlock]

106. Oh ok.

Been on the net since '94 but mostly avoided discussion groups with occasional exceptions.

I think they're all panderers on some level or another but I'm jaded. I'm definitely mostly left on nearly every issue, though I wouldn't say it's far, far left. I've never been able to get that excited about a candidate. I was never impressed with Obama till he actually took office and now I wish he wouldn't leave. I haven't liked every decision he's made but he's helped make my marriage accepted nationwide.

I don't love Clinton but I like her and, having been the victim of a thousand false smears in my day, I'm not quick to believe them about others. Most people I know did well when Bill was president and, from the charts I've seen on the AA group, many African Americans did well when he was in office too. As a small business owner, $15 an hour scares me, not because I don't think people deserve it, but because I don't think a single lever can be pulled like that. I think more things need to change fundamentally for something like that to work. A lot of small businesses I know would have to lay people off and work their own cash registers which is a waste for me because I'm better marketing and developing the business. And, if it's not done right and that increase in wage doesn't translate into more spending, the prices go up across the board and $15 is no longer a living wage. I'm no economist but I see enough to know that there are many notes in a musical composition and this is going to take a whole orchestra to fix and not just one guy on a tympani. Corporations will just shift things around, lay people off, make people part time. They'll survive that shift. Small businesses won't survive it as easily and so, voila, you'll have more corporations and less mom and pop, or in my case, pop and pop.

[Fumesucker]

110. The false smears against Sanders have been epic and unflagging

Not to make this personal but if you are paying less than a living wage to your employees then someone else quite likely the government is paying the rest of what they need. Either that or they are slowly or maybe not so slowly losing ground.

Bernie's message is close to "It's the economy, stupid", how come Clinton isn't playing that tune these days?

Bear in mind if the conductor is conducting Brahms and the orchestra is doing Sousa things are going to come out a little oddly.

[nolawarlock]

112. Living wage varies

Cost of living in my New Orleans shop is radically different from that in the Salem shops and we aren't paying minimum wage but $15 out of the gate would be pretty scary for a small business that often subsists on razor-thin margins. I get it's often fun to bash businesses small and large alike but most of the small business owners I know don't even make minimum wage themselves half the time. They're often just lucky enough to have a husband or wife who has a job that can pay the day to day bills. If the goal is that there are no more small businesses, well, I can respect that that is your goal if you're willing to admit that is your goal, but that is certainly the result of such policies. I actually read someone on this board saying, "well if the business can't afford $15 an hour, they should be out of business." Clearly that person hasn't tried to open a business in this day and age. Workers aren't the only people that get screwed by policies that favor corporations. Small businesses do as well and it's s shame that we have to be the sacrificial lamb in the quest to destroy corporations that will ultimately survive these onslaughts.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be higher wages, but I think there should be some kind of tax subsidies to do it for small businesses. So either they're subsidizing the staff or they're subsidizing us, unless what people really want is a world where only corporations exist. Given that none of our shops are in places known for an excess of national chains and strip malls, I know that's not a world I want to see.

[apcalc]

104. Ever since the news of this trip came out

I have been thinking that it gives new meaning to a " Hail Mary".

[PufPuf23]

105. It is really sad and shameful.

Its like the Clinton campaign is unable to acknowledge anything positive about the competition and will do its best to degrade as tactic.

Hillary Clinton could have said it is good to build bridges and gone positive or ignored and let go but felt the need to put a negative talking point in the news cycle.

The Vatican cannot be pleased and also was unlikely to politicize the Sanders visit anyway.

lose lose lose

[apcalc]

108. My comment was not to be critical.

I meant it as a joke.... After all, he is behind, and sports teams in football who are behind throw Hail Mary' passes to win.

It was not meant to be critical of Sanders in a negative way. Ah well, humor is many times individual.

[PufPuf23]

111. I was responding to the OP and the thread in general, not your post.

I am not sure if I had even read your post.

Funny is good. Kind is good. Mean is not good.

Peace and build up that post count.