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[cyberpj]

This message was self-deleted by its author (cyberpj) on Tue May 17, 2016, 09:07 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Good.

[villager]

2. As opposed to the current system of the rest of us paying for all the stuff the rich are getting?

[awake]

42. +1000

[Octafish]

74. That's Top Secret

And why Assange lives in Ecuador's embassy in London and Snowden lives in Russia without his pole dancer girlfriend and her boxes.

[840high]

85. .yep

[doc03]

3. Hell no. Looks to me like we are all rich. I would fall in group 3 and would pay almost double

what I did last year hell fucking NO.

[CorkySt.Clair]

5. I fall in group 4

Let's jet off to Fiji and enjoy some R and R. Jeeves, fetch the Rolls will you?

[doc03]

7. Well finally we get to see what all this FREE stuff will

cost us.

[CorkySt.Clair]

8. It was an illuminating piece, that's for sure

[basselope]

124. Not much actually.

Unless you fall in group 5 or 6

[dflprincess]

137. When you look at the amount your taxes would increase

remember to subtract what you're currently paying for health insurance.

[beedle]

11. Ahh, I see

improving society is suppose to be free.

So the difference here between you're concerns and Republican concerns are exactly what again?

[CorkySt.Clair]

13. My concerns are not ever being in group 5

If you're right on the line you're truly fucked.

[beedle]

17. Then you're concerns are misplaced

You only think they're 'fucked' because you don't understand the progressive tax system and are fooled by 'averages' while they show you only the the lowest end of the marginal tax group.

[CorkySt.Clair]

18. Thank you, High Sparrow

[beedle]

22. Math --- remember that?

Unlike an election and delegate count, the math of 'marginal tax rates' is real and not dictated by opinion on what numbers like "X% tax rate on earning over Y amount" really mean.

[Maru Kitteh]

48. Pardon me, do you have any Grey Poupon?

[senz]

87. As a liberal Democrat, I don't mind paying a little more if it makes life more bearable

for those who struggle just to keep their heads above water.

The system is rigged. Too many of our fellow Americans are suffering. No one who works a 40 hour week should have to live in poverty.

But then, I'm a liberal Democrat.

[CorkySt.Clair]

92. How wonderful for you

Truly

[senz]

95. You really don't understand, do you?

Sometimes it feels like we have Republicans among us, but maybe it's just the Third Way.

[Logical]

131. Who says this?nweird. Nt

[beedle]

6. Republicans have a great tax plan for you then.

they'll probably even allow you to pay your taxes by withholding your food stamps

[wendylaroux]

10. Ah Hell Yes! Bernie!!!

you'll be ok.

[Corporate666]

44. except..

Bernie has lied about the cost of this "free healthcare". he is claiming massive savings whereas the real number is massive cost increases.

And "free college" - LOL! When public schools are "free", then everyone will apply there. Which means only the top 1% of students will have any hope of being accepted... meaning the other 99% of kids will have no choice for lower-cost public schools and instead will need to choose between private school or no school.

Luckily they will have massive tax increases reducing their paychecks, and the end of free trade agreements will mean massively higher prices for consumer goods, and Bernie's energy policies will mean gas more expensive than it ever was under Bush or Obama, as well as higher electric, home heating and transportation costs... so college would have been a pipe dream anyway for 90% of kids.

[Corporate666]

115. Responding with nothing but personal attacks just proves you are wrong

You have nothing else to respond with, so you start off by insulting me, then insulting me again, then putting words in my mouth and insulting me again, then insulting me again, then saying "it's not worth your time".

So transparent.

If you are unable to reply with reasonable points, then do some research and reply. Personal attacks are like hoisting a flag that says "I hate that you are right and I am frustrated that I can't respond, so I am going to lash out".

[Human101948]

59. Be afraid, be afraid!

Man, you buy into this Republican scare propaganda lock, stock and barrel.

We could have all this "free stuff" if we demanded it instead of funding the biggest, most bloated military in history. Instead of letting insurance companies run healthcare. And instead of letting "trickle down" gospel rule our tax policies. Instead of turning colleg students into debt slaves before they even have a job.

The fact is that people are pretty happy in all those countries that have that "free stuff" and they wouldn't trade it for our half assed system.

Support Hillary but please don't advance the agenda of the Republicans. Remember, they are the ones that claim that Social Security is the cause of the deficit when it has paid for itself years into the future. They just don't want the 99 percent to do anything but to be wage and debt slaves to service them.

[Corporate666]

117. Economics and human nature come from republicans?

That's news to me. So you're telling me when they have a black friday sale and people camp out for deals... it's republicans that cause that and not human nature and capitalism and supply/demand and economics?

Of course we know that's not true - but you've created a convenient boogeyman that you are using to justify beliefs that aren't supported by facts.

Have you lived in those countries that give out "free stuff"? I have. Life is better here. As for education, have you looked at the rankings of colleges in those countries compared to the USA? I have. Education is better here. And if Bernie were able to just wave his hand and make public school free, do you think applications would rise, fall or stay the same? He is assuming enrollment will stay the same. So since we both know applications would skyrocket, what does that mean? There is no alternative except stricter admissions. So only the very best students get in.

And that cuts off the source of cheap education for the other 99% of kids who now get to choose private school or nothing. How does that help these kids get an education? Answer: It doesn't.

Bernie's whole platform is like the law requiring CEO pay to be disclosed. Naive voters thought that if CEO pay were disclosed, it would somehow shame them into earning less. What actually happened was CEO pay exploded, because all the CEO's saw what others were making and wanted the same.

It's the law of unintended consequences. So if Bernie waves his wand and makes college free, turning it into a massive handout for upper middle class whites (who tend to perform better academically), what then? And when $15/hr causes unemployment and more jobs to leave the USA, what then? And when backing out of trade deals and starting a trade war causes huge increases in consume prices, overwhelmingly affecting lower income consumers, what then? And when his energy policy causes gas prices to spike to above European levels, and increases the price of everything (due to transportation costs), and leads to even more unemployment and inflation, what then?

[Human101948]

140. Virtually everything you mention is a made up mumbo jumbo meant to frighten people...

Last edited Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:35 AM - Edit history (2)

Check the articles that use those examples. They are all in right wing business publications.

The Absurdity Of A $15 Minimum Wage
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/09/01/the-absurdity-of-a-15-minimum-wage/#478a6a1483ab

National $15 Minimum Wage Is Trouble
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-08-06/national-15-minimum-wage-is-trouble

A $15-hour minimum wage could harm America’s poorest workers
http://fortune.com/2015/07/30/1223726-15-hour-minimum-wage-workers-fast-food/

Guess who else agrees with you?

Ted Cruz Uses Discredited Talking Points To Make Case Against Minimum Wage Hike

Research, however, shows no significant connection between increasing the minimum wage and jobs. A 2009 analysis of 64 United States minimum-wage studies found “little or no evidence of a negative association between minimum wages and employment.” Likewise, a 2013 Economic Policy Institute (EPI) report found that “Research over the past two decades has shown that, despite skeptics’ claims, modest increases in the minimum wage have little to no negative impact on jobs. In fact, under current labor market conditions, where tepid consumer demand is a major factor holding businesses back from expanding their payrolls, raising the minimum wage can provide a catalyst for new hiring.”
Those findings are reinforced by a 2014 Center for American Progress Action Fund (CAPAF) study that looked at two decades of minimum wage increases in various states and “found no clear evidence that the minimum-wage increases affect aggregate job creation when unemployment rates are high,” let alone when unemployment is relatively low.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2016/04/15/3769794/ted-cruz-federal-minimum-wage-increase/


Here's How Every Argument Against a Minimum Wage Hike is Bullshit
Conservatives love to throw out scare quotes on this point in particular, but they’re full of sound and fury, signifying douchery. Remember all those stories about how restaurants were closing like crazy in Seattle in the wake of the city passing its landmark $15/hour minimum wage increase? Yeah, those were bullshit—no more restaurants were closing than normal, and the ones that did had nothing to do with the wage hike. It should’ve been easy to tell that, though; Republicans showed their hand when they started touting restaurant closures before the wage actually even started to go into effect.

http://kitchenette.jezebel.com/heres-how-every-argument-against-a-minimum-wage-hike-is-1728874042

[Maedhros]

82. Did I hear a conservative whining?

I swear I heard a conservative whining.

/ignore.

[Corporate666]

119. You heard reality

And you not only chose to cover your eyes and pretend you didn't hear it, you also chose not to respond.

That is what children do, not adults. Not a good way to live one's life.

[Blue Meany]

104. And you know about these massive cost increases in health care how?

If we brought our costs down to those in France, which is usually near the top-rated health systems in the world, we would not have to raise taxes at all, but we would have to end the profiteering of pharmaceutical companies, probably end health insurance industry, and reduce the profits in some other areas of for-profit health care. So, yes there would be losers, but fewer than there are now and they wouldn't be dying for lack of medical care.

[Corporate666]

123. Studies have shown

that when health care is free, consumption rises about 30% (RAND group study).

Bernie doesn't account for medicare co-pays, nor does he account for increased usage to the level it would actually rise, and he overestimates (by a massive amount) the savings his plan would realize. That's one way to view the picture and realize he is promising that which he can never deliver.

Another way to look at it that confirms the conclusion is that 35% of health care costs are people (doctors, nurses). 35% are facilities (hospitals, ER's). 15% are drugs. 10% are insurance companies. 5% is everything else (physical therapy, ambulance services, home medical devices, etc).

If you look at what doctors earn in (for example) the UK vs the USA, the pay is 200% to 500% greater in the USA. So we can never achieve European health care costs unless we have their salaries as well. How are you going to tell a doctor that instead of making $250k a year, he now makes $60k a year? The doctor couldn't do that - he has medical school debt and insurance costs that far exceed $60k a year. So even IF doctors were happy earning $60k a year (and they wouldn't be), you would have to also pass tort reform to make it much harder if not impossible to sue doctors and hospitals. Then you would also have to pass a debt relief package for them and eliminate billions in debt. Where are those costs accounted for in Bernie's plan?

On top of that, how are you going to keep the flow of workers coming into the system? Enrollment in medical schools would drop like a rock. Who wants to study for 11 years to earn $60-100k a year? Better just to get into IT or sales or finance and get out in 6 with a masters and earn more. So then you will need to start importing foreign labor and dealing with shortages of caregivers. Then you will face increasing wait times, just like they have in the UK, Canada and such.

The wait for a heart operation in the USA is about 3 days. The wait time in Canada is about 5 months. For hip replacements, it's 3 weeks in the USA, 3 months in the UK. Same for cataract surgery. And there are restrictions on eligibility in those countries too. People who qualify now in the USA won't under single payer.

If we try to keep the same care as now but just make it a gov't program, the cost will be astronomical. We would have to gut lots of other programs, not just military, but something like social security or enact massive austerity and get rid of debt interest payments. There's just no way achieve what Sanders claims.

[Scuba]

142. Please provide sources for your claims.

[oberliner]

122. Congress will not pass such a tax increase

Republicans will line up against it.

[grasswire]

21. read it again

You would have no costs for health care. And you would be living in a better educated and infinitely healthier society.

[uponit7771]

112. The healthcare wont be free !!! wtf...

[BernieforPres2016]

24. What do you pay for monthly healthcare premiums currently?

And what do you pay in a typical year in copays and annual deductibles?

I believe those extra tax amounts in the OP include taxes for the Medicare for all single payer plan. So the extra tax should be reduced by what you spend on health care in the average year on monthly premiums, copays and the extra amount you spend in an average year up to your annual deductible.

[AgingAmerican]

121. About 800$ per month

Of course our insurance doesnt even kick in til we meet our $4000 yearly deductible.

[Chan790]

37. Do you have kids that will be going to college? Do you pay for health insurance?

Do these things cost you more than $4,692 per year?

Because if they do, and I'm pretty sure they do, you're ahead on the taxation because you no longer will have to pay for those things, they'll be paid for by Uncle Sam out of your tax dollars.

I haven't even touched on how it's a much better way to spend your tax dollars than buying F-35s and subsidizing energy companies like the GOP and Hillary want to do. I mean, isn't it?

(I fall into that top-1% within the 5th quintile and you don't hear me complaining. I fought for my taxes to go up in this way...I like living in a stable prosperous society where we can all have nice things and I don't have to keep a wary eye out for guillotines and angry mobs.)

[Human101948]

62. Yep, when my daughter was in college I paid...

$45,000 a year and probably about $12,000 a year for healthcare.

[stopwastingmymoney]

54. I'm in group 3 and that increase

Is about what we pay for health insurance BEFORE anyone goes to the doctor, so I'm more than ok with it.

[passiveporcupine]

129. Are you getting health care from your job, or paying for it as self-employed?

If so, how much is your employer and/or you paying now, much of which will be eliminated, to offset those tax increases? You may well end up paying less.

Are you in college and incurring debt, or do you have a current college loan haunting you? If so, in the first situation, you may end up getting free college tuition, saving you a ton of money, or in the second case, you may get a much lower interest rate to help you pay off your current loan obligation.

And if none of these things apply to you, then you are probably doing better than most people and not deeply in debt, and you can afford the increase in taxes.

But I seriously think most people will be seeing much of an increase, unless they are pretty well off. Also, you are seeing average tax increase on the chart, for a range of income for each category. Depending on where you are in that range, that number will go up or down. But much of it will still be offset with savings not shown in this chart.

[kcdoug1]

4. about f*cking TIME!!!

[Lone_Wolf]

9. Rightwing talking points

"Corporate conservatives have taken notice of the Bernie Sanders campaign, and has started accusing him of "buying votes" by "promising" "free stuff." Is it true?"

The short answer is "no"

http://crooksandliars.com/2016/02/bernie-sanders-promising-free-stuff-buy

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Progressive Taxation... oiff

[Else You Are Mad]

15. The bottom line is:

I would rather have my taxes increased and used for 'free stuff' (medicare for all, free college, etc) than have my taxes used to subsidize multinational corporations that make billions yet get tax refunds.

Just saying....

[doc03]

20. I would rather have a little of my own money to pay my

fucking bills. According to this my tax could go from $5145 to nearly $10000 and I am retired. I guess I will have to get a job at McDonalds
or at Kroger gathering shopping carts. Of course after we get a $15 minimum wage half those jobs will be gone.

[DemocracyDirect]

108. Well then you must be making over $60,000 a year according to your numbers.

That's a pretty decent living for a retiree.

Even at $15 an hour a minimum wage job will only make you $31,200 a year.

I think you need to rethink your Republican talking points.

[Else You Are Mad]

34. Indeed.

People have been indoctrinated over the last 35 years to believe that tax money is just selfishly taken by the big bad government and serves no purpose and the economy would be ruined if the precious rich people have to pay taxes.

These people don't realize that taxes are necessary and, if correctly used for social programs, actually would end up saving money. Specifically, government run programs are not run for profit, unlike privatized programs where the corporation's goal is to only make a profit -- either from contracts from the government or from charging inflated fees to the citizens.

[Lone_Wolf]

16. The same writer,Jeffrey Dorfman, thinks Ted Cruz is the best candidate

[anotherproletariat]

19. No matter which category people fall into...it is VERY hard to sell new taxes to the electorate

particularly when the benefits won't be seen for many years. Even if this is the best thing for the country in the long run, most people are too short-sighted or have more pressing immediate financial concerns to make this viable.

[anotherproletariat]

67. People used to a tiered healthcare system are not suddenly going to get excited

about socialized medicine. There is going to have to be a secondary market given that this is a capitalistic society and many people won't accept waits/poor conditions, etc. Same for college. There is going to have to be so much infrastructure built to accommodate everyone who wants free tuition that it will be almost unfeasible, unless admission rates plummet.

Again, I would love these things to happen, I just think so many people will see too many hurdles to make the increase in taxes for - conservatively - 10 years before anything happens something that just won't go over well.

Aside from that, all of the countries that have adopted successful universal healthcare and education systems started with much stronger economies than we have now. If nothing else, we will have to first solve the problem of income inequality to a large extent before the economy will even tolerate so many years of paying into a system, and still having to pay for those expenses you list.

I have been reading many economists blogs and op eds during this election cycle, and I have yet to read one that thinks this idea is feasible...even if the congress would go along with it, which right now is a big if.

[Haveadream]

88. Thank you re: the economy

This has been a concern for me as well. I think the goal is a good one but the plan to get there as it has been laid out falls short. Better the funds come from the Defense budget and the 1% than the middle and struggling classes. HRC's idea of a debt reduced tuition plan and free community college is a good one, especially if combined while working on the infrastructure for state universities to be funded more. That said, many of the State U's are currently almost impossible for many to get into (in some cases fewer than 5% of applicants are currently accepted) due to the recession and the overflow of students. There has to be a major infusion into education to create or expand facilities. As for those who want to stay home rather than vote for Hillary, be aware that Trump has said he would like to do away with the Department of Education, any affordable healthcare and the Environmental Protection Agency entirely. So, be careful what you ask for.

[anotherproletariat]

110. Good points, and again I think most Dems want to live in a society where we eliminate poverty,

it is not a matter of being for or against the things that will help the poor and middle classes. It's about finding a way to do them responsibly, and in a way that they will be supported by all and last. I think Obamacare was a great example of how to begin. The ACA didn't change the way health care is administered, but it did add a way for more people to have access to it. If this can grow to provide insurance for everyone, that would be a great first start...then maybe we can slowly eliminate private insurance companies, etc.

I like your ideas of finding alternative funding. It would make all of these plans much more realistic.

[Uncle Joe]

26. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, cyberpj.

[corkhead]

27. "Lower earning households would win Higher earning households get stuck with the bill"

a good start

as it should be to start to reverse the rogering we've gotten by the 5s and above for the last 3 or 4 decades.

[NurseJackie]

28. The president is not a monarch. It doesn't work that way.

[CorkySt.Clair]

32. I was concerned briefly about his tax policies

Then I realized he will never be president and felt better.

[JDPriestly]

40. See my Post #31.

I'd rather pay higher taxes, nothing to for-profit insurance companies, know that the poor have health care and that all kids regardless of their parents' incomes can go to college debt-free than have the executives at large defense contract companies get paid millions in bonuses for laying off thousands and thousands of Americans.

Read the story about Clinton's "innovative" scheme for giving what I would call kick-backs to top executives in the defense industry for laying off American workers -- all in the name of efficiency.

No wonder Hillary says we can't afford universal healthcare and free college like they can in other industrialized nations. She's got to pay off the executives in the defense industry first -- like Bill did.

See my post #31.

Bernie's got this. He knows where the money is buried in our budget.

[CorkySt.Clair]

41. I'll pass, but thanks

[Human101948]

66. Pathetic

[Thinkingabout]

30. So this means the less than 10% Sanders is paying now to much larger, I get

The feeling he will find some way around the increased taxes.

[JDPriestly]

33. See my post # 31.

[Thinkingabout]

51. Are your wages as high as Sanders?

[Thinkingabout]

99. He is in the top 10%.

[Thinkingabout]

109. Then he could give a larger percentage to charity. Even pay a larger

Percentage of taxes since he thinks the rich should pay their part.

[JDPriestly]

31. Bernie can handle this.

Here are his committee assignments in Congress. (Been there since at least 1992.)

Committee Assignments

Environment and Public Works »

The United States Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works is responsible for dealing with matters related to the environment and infrastructure.

Energy and Natural Resources »

The United States Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources has jurisdiction over matters related to energy and nuclear waste policy, territorial policy, native Hawaiian matters, and public lands.

Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions »

The United States Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions (HELP) generally considers matters relating to these issues. Its jurisdiction extends beyond these issues to include several more specific areas, as defined by Senate rules.

Budget »

The United States Senate Committee on Budget was established by the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974. It is responsible for drafting Congress's annual budget plan and monitoring action on the budget for the Federal Government. The committee has jurisdiction over the Congressional Budget Office.

Veterans' Affairs »

The United States Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs considers matters relating to the compensation of veterans, life insurance issued on account of service in the Armed Forces, national cemeteries, pensions of all wars, readjustment of servicemen to civil life, and veterans' hospitals and medical care.

Joint Economic Committee »

This joint committee of the United States Senate and the United States House of Representatives focuses on promoting maximum employment, production, and purchasing power.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/about/committees

When Bernie first went into Congress, he served on the Banking and Community Development and Government Operations Committees.

Sanders, Bernie, Gutman, Huck, Outsider in the White House (2015) p. 116.

In that same book, at pages 258-261, Bernie lists potential changes in our tax and subsidies laws that could help us balance our budget.

In Chapter 3 of that book, Bernie describes how the Pentagon and our government gave "payoffs for layoffs" to one of the major employers in Vermont DURING THE CLINTON ERA.

Here goes:

pages 127-130:

One of Burlington's largest employers was Martin Marietta. When that defense contractor merged with Lockheed to form Lockheed-Martin, I was more than usually attuned to the implication of that deal -- the downsizing of 17,000 American workers. For making the 'tough decision' to fire all those workers, the executives of the newly merged company decided to pay themselves $91 million in executive bonuses. Ninety-one million dollars as a reward for obliterating 17,000 jobs.

. . . .

Now, a $91 million bonus for executives who were laying off 17,000 workers is obscene enough. Even worse, Bill Gould, my legislative director, discovered that fully one-third of that money, $31 million, was to come from the Pentagon as 'restructuring costs.' As soon as I learned about this outrageous federal give-away, I drafted an amendment to prevent the Pentagon from paying the bonus. Imagine workers thrown out of their jobs paying taxes so that the bastards who fired them could stuff their pockets. Bill termed the legislation the 'payoffs for layoffs' amendment.

. . . .

We learned, after much probing, that the Pentagon bonuses to Lockheed-Martin executives were merely the tip of the iceberg in terms of corporate welfare for the defense industry. Clinton's secretary of defense, William Perry, had instituted a new policy under which the Pentagon provides 'restructuring costs' to companies that undergo a merger. Through this policy, the federal government offers corporations huge sums of money to encourage mergers in the defense industry. Corporate 'efficiency' is the ostensible goal; there is no concern with the mergers' inevitable result, the laying off of many thousands of American workers."

citation above.

Bernie's amendment was similar to an amendment written by Chris Smith a conservative Republican. Bernie's and Smith's amendments were combined and called the Sanders-Smith amendment. It was included in the Defense Authorization bill and received a great deal of support in Congress.

Bernie explains:

"Still, when the total Defense Authorization bill came to the floor, I ended up voting against it, even though it included the Smith-Sanders amendment. Sometimes it is difficult to explain this sort of action to people who do not follow Congress. Simply put, I try to make each and every bill better by drafting and, hopefully, passing good amendments. When the final bill comes up, I weigh the good elements against the bad and, sometimes, even if I've improved it with amendments, I still end up voting against it. In this instance, the bill contained far too much money for the military -- $10 billion more than the president had wanted, and he wanted too much."

Sanders, Bernie, Gutman, Huck, Outsider in the White House (2015) p. 132.

Sander, an honest man in a perverted, dishonest, rigged system.

Bill Clinton's White House????? Well, you judge for yourself.

[shanti]

89. that's right

my taxes would go up a bit, but would be offset by the free healthcare. but the most important thing to me are my children and grandchildren, who would be the recipients of this plan. if europe, etc., can do it, so can we!

sadly, i think there are a lot of people everywhere with an "i've got mine, to hell with you" attitude.

[Kang Colby]

35. Families living in areas with a high cost of living for work...

can't afford this nonsense. This is a pipe dream. LOL

Whenever I see this #berniemath laying around here it reminds me of this.

[CorkySt.Clair]

43. Oh that meme...

[Kang Colby]

46. But it gets better!

[Ash_F]

105. Do you know what website that image originated from?

http://americanirony.us/

Here is another gem from these skilled satirists


Such wit! I died laughing.

[Maru Kitteh]

57. Thank you :0

That produced an actual l o l.

[JDPriestly]

73. See my Post #31 if you want to know why Americans can't have universal healthcare

and debt-free or nearly debt-free college like they do in many other countries.

It's about the corruption. And the Clintons are right in the middle of that corruption!

[Kang Colby]

75. As per your post..

Veterans' Affairs »

The United States Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs considers matters relating to the compensation of veterans, life insurance issued on account of service in the Armed Forces, national cemeteries, pensions of all wars, readjustment of servicemen to civil life, and veterans' hospitals and medical care.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/about/committees


Mister Magoo's errr I mean Bernie's oversight of the VA has been catastrophic for America's service men and women. We don't need someone so grossly incompetent running the country.

[JDPriestly]

135. John McCain also serves on that committee. It is not Bernie's fault that Congress does not

pay for the injuries and promised services to our veterans.

My husband is a veteran and is pretty happy with the VA as it is.

It all depends. But Congress has to provide the money if the veterans' services are to be adequate. And the Republicans in Congress are not willing to do that.

With Bernie in the White House, we need to educate Americans as to the needs of veterans.

[Autumn]

39. The top !% are the sleazy pigs who want fee stuff.

[creeksneakers2]

45. Bernie keeps promising more things

This weekend it was another $5 billion for housing. During Thursday's debate he proposed a massive program on energy. Many analysts said Bernie was using smoke and mirrors to cover his costs with what he first promised. He's probably beyond 100% taxation by now.

[Else You Are Mad]

49. Not even close.

Most other Nations around the world can handle it. We are the wealthiest nation in the world, I am sure we can afford it.

[creeksneakers2]

56. We could afford more

if we reduced the military down to the levels those other countries have.

[Else You Are Mad]

64. That would be a good start. nt

[redstateblues]

65. Sorry. I don't trust Bernie. He's confused about how to accomplish

His main objective. His whole scheme is based on a growth rate of 5.3 percent. Very suspect

[redstateblues]

86. Sorry- I heard him stumbling with my own ears. It was embarrassing.

In the debate he could not come up with one instance of Hillary's so called "corruption" after railing about it for a year. I felt bad for him- I would vote for him if he won the nomination but I wouldn't feel good about it. I'm a staunch Democrat.

[4ricksren]

50. tax the shit out of the rich! they get a free ride now!

especially big corporations

if we put three trillion on the backs of american taxpayers for wars -- then health care, public education, ecology, and infrstructure, can easily be financed by closing corporate loopholes and tax havens

[Bread and Circus]

53. That's the whole point.

[Agnosticsherbet]

60. Who in the House and Senate will pass those bills?

[Agnosticsherbet]

136. Republicans have a large majority in the House and will not vote to raise taxes.

The control the senate (I hope we change this) but the Senate can not initiate a tax bill, and the House won't pass it.

So, that does not answer my question. Congress Controls the Legislative agenda and they will not pass those bills.

[tabasco]

61. Highest tax bracket rate in 1950s was 91 percent.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-01-02/1950s-tax-fantasy-is-a-republican-nightmare

That's what's needed for capitalism to survive.

[Agnosticsherbet]

63. Only for those that had no access to decudtions and other special benefits to cut their taxes.

[Human101948]

71. You know what?

Those who were doing all those cattle and oil well schemes were happy to reduce their income taxes to 50% in those days.


Now the highest marginal rate is 39.6%.

And hedge fund managers who make millions pay 15%.

[Agnosticsherbet]

77. Again, the rich have always had access to means of reducing their tax bill, even then.

That rate was only applied to part of their income, and there were many deductions that only they had access to.
For instance, business expenses, development, and expansion meant that the very little was actually collected. The purpose of that high rate was to get high-income people to invest that money into new enterprises, which was a really good idea.
Very little of it actually went back to the government in taxes.

The real problem with the talk about taxes is that no one talks about who will pass those tax bills. Only Congress can levy taxes and raise funds. All Tax bills and funding bills must begin in the US Congress.

[Haveadream]

68. If this chart is accurate

it is increasing taxes for people who live below the poverty line, puts more weight on an already burdened middle class and falls short on taxing the top 1% by a lot. Furthermore, neither the promised healthcare reform nor the free college have a chance of materializing in time to offset the increases. The majority of funding for the programs needs to come from the 1%; not the 99% below.

[Jitter65]

70. If I pay the taxes on this chart, then my overall income would drop me from group 4 to group 3.WTF?

Clear that up for me please.

[wendylaroux]

78. oh no!!! it seems no one cares.

you'll be ok.

[ecstatic]

113. Don't waste time trying to figure it out.

The numbers in that chart are just wild guesses that don't really matter.

If hell freezes and Bernie ends up president, there's very little chance of his plans being passed by congress.

This is a guy who doesn't understand the importance of down ballot races--he just smeared Clinton & Clooney for fundraising for the very democrats he'd need to get a plan passed.

[JDPriestly]

76. By the way, it only makes sense that those who have the money have to pay for things.

Please note that the taxes only go up on that portion of the income that is over the limit for the lower tax bracket. People earning $300,000 a year will only pay a higher tax rate on $50,000 if the taxes go up on amounts over $250,000.

A lot of people get worried about something that won't really cost them that much.

If we simply changed to single payer with non-profits handling the private organization of and coverage of healthcare instead of for-profits, we would have much more affordable insurance.

I will repeat. I lived in several different European countries that had single-payer health insurance in various systems. I loved it.

I did not have to limit my choice of doctors to those who were OK with my insurance company. Every doctor was in the system. It was great.

And my healthcare was excellent.

A lot of fuss over nothing that will affect most of us. I had what I thought at the time were a couple of good jobs, but never, ever did my husband and I make $250,000 per year. That is a lot of money.

[mhatrw]

80. The Tax Policy Center is a Repuke "Think Tank" That Cooked Up These Numbers.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

83. This is from Forbes, and therefore must be taken with ten pounds of salt.

Or more.

This is meant to scare everybody.

[Haveadream]

93. Probably

Right?

[k8conant]

91. We are in Quintile 3

It seems we would pay ~$4,692 for what we currently pay (in health care alone) ~$11000.

[A Little Weird]

96. Looks good

I will happily pay more taxes if I know they're going to be spent wisely.

[Demnorth]

97. It's not free health care,

just to address what some people have said.

It's fantastic, it should happen, it's the right thing - and if it does happen, I would like to move to the U.S. immediately! I'm a single payer - I pay double the annual premium that Sanders says a family of four (who earn more than I do) would pay. He claims vision care and dental care are included (no) along with prescription drug costs (deductible).

If you're very low-income there is no cost, but basic care only, and restrictions apply.

[Demnorth]

107. It's the example

on his website?

https://berniesanders.com/issues/medicare-for-all/

[Demnorth]

118. Sorry, my point is simply

that that is not the single-payer I know. I wish vision care and dental care were covered here, and prescription drug costs were included with no deductible. (They are if you're very low-income, basic care with restrictions). That seems to be what his plan proposes, though.

I find it hard to get a grip on top-end number-crunching, I think it's really hard for any candidate to estimate the ultimate cost of a plan, but I can relate to the example of the family of four he lists below the excerpt you provided. Their annual premium is $466, their income is $50,000. My single annual premium is $900, and I have less income than they do.

I'm all for his plan! I just can't figure out why it sounds so much better than the reality of single-payer here?

[Jake2413]

98. As it should be.....

[passiveporcupine]

101. Not only that, the tax increases do not reflect the savings in health care and college

And there will be huge savings if single payer is implemented and public college is provided tuition free.

Plus wages will go up if minimum wage goes up.

It's a win win all around.

[Kittycat]

116. Class of 2025-future, step on in...

Parents of grade schoolers, Please take a moment to read these articles.

I have two boys, 6th & 3rd grade. My youngest graduates in 2025. If anyone thinks that's a long way off, blink. My boys were toddling around a pumpkin patch in their Obama t-shirts a month before he was elected in 2008. In 8 more years, my oldest will be 20, youngest 17. The whole world changes in a blink. Incremental change will not protect the future for our children, only drastic change. In your hearts you know it as much as I know it.

This isn't just about college, or healthcare - it's about innovation and a race to change their future from a path that will not provide a future for our grandchildren or great grandchildren.

The American Dream used to be about providing a better life for your children, so they could provide a better life for themselves. The American Dream is dead. In it's place - greed, denial and deception. Only we can be brave enough to change that.

http://www.bestcollegesonline.com/blog/a-timeline-of-college-tuition/

2011-2012: THE AVERAGE COST OF HIGHER EDUCATION FOR STUDENTS ENROLLING THIS YEAR? FOR A PRIVATE COLLEGE, STUDENTS CAN EXPECT TO PAY $119,400 AND PUBLIC SCHOOL COSTS RUN $33,300 ON AVERAGE.

If rates keep the same increase over the next 18 years, students in 2028 can expect to pay $340,800 and $95,000, respectively, for the very same.

http://usuncut.com/world/american-students-flock-to-germany-and-stay/

Thanks to the efforts of the German National Association for Student Affairs (DSW — Germany’s student union), all students have to pay is a $500 annual fee that essentially amounts to student union dues to get a top-notch education, books, and train fare included. And Germany currently offers approximately 1,100 English-language classes, so American students don’t even have to worry about having to take classes in a foreign tongue.

[oberliner]

120. That looks like a pretty big tax increase for pretty much everyone

Might be a tough sell to the general public.

[basselope]

126. You are not considering the savings of not having to pay health care.

[oberliner]

130. I am just suggesting that it will be a tough sell

Not that it isn't a good idea.

[basselope]

132. The sell is selling the whole picture.

I just converted someone tonight who wasn't planning on voting at all, but now he is supporting Bernie in the CA primary.

[basselope]

125. I fall in group 5 and am happy to pay more.

Groups 1-4 will see significant SAVINGS, b/c this doesn't take into account what you WON'T have to pay in health care.

Group 5+6 bear the brunt.

It's fair.

[Adrahil]

134. What do you considers a fair increase for group 5?

I fall into that group too. I currently pay about $10K a year in Health Insurance premiums. Through in the deductible and that that comes to $16K. So, I could absorb $16K in tax increases with no hit on my after tax income. The one calculator I used said my taxes would go up $23K. I can tell you a $7,000 a year increase in taxes for me does not strike me as "fair." That would have a significant impact on me and my family. I'm willing to take a hit. But that's more like a broadside.

Not that it really matters.... Bernie's plans are completely unrealistic. I have a better chance winning the lottery than those plans getting passed, and I don't PLAY the lottery.

[basselope]

138. Well.. at my income level I should be paying more in taxes.

Based on the Sanders plan I would be paying about 31K more in taxes, which is actually underselling it since much of my future income comes from capital gains, which would be taxed as regular income, so the number is more likely 45K

We will see a savings of about 20K in health care (13K in premiums and 7K in out of pocket costs).

So, all in all probably about 25K more in taxes for my family.

BUT if you fall into category 5 it means you are AT LEAST making 150K per year, which means unless you are spending like a drunken sailor, you can absorb the additional taxes, because you are NOT living paycheck to paycheck (again, unless you have no clue how to handle money).

The one thing that will sting me the hardest if Sanders gets in is that I have an investment in a company that I made in 2014 and I own 1.6MM shares of their stock. They PLAN to go public in 2018 or 2019 at $10-12 per share. I would see a capital gain of over 10MM if that happens (and it seems very likely right now). Under Sanders plan what would originally have cost me about 1.3MM in taxes for that would NOW cost me about 4MM in taxes... But, again, that is a sacrifice I am more than willing to make for everything the country has to gain.

I reversed engineer your numbers above and it comes to ABOUT 225K in gross income. So please don't try to sell me on the fact that paying 7K in additional taxes is not fair or is going to cause you a burden.

[Doctor_J]

127. Why are you here again?

This post belongs at freeperville or Fox nation.

[HooptieWagon]

128. Good. The rich and corporations have been paying near historic low tax rates for 35 years.

It's about time they started carrying their share of the load.

[Mosby]

133. higher taxes on earned income is not the way to go

Raise cap gains and figure out ways to reform Corp tax and offshoring of profits.

[Haveadream]

139. Yes

Thank you. Those are critical ways to help ensure those who are able to afford are paying their fair share. HRC has talked about that repeatedly. Her plan is more nuanced and will produce more tax revenue without burdening the middle class as much.

[99Forever]

141. I fail to see any problem with that.

Beats us setting up guillotines and giving them what they truly deserve.

Fuck the rich because they fucked us.