I just don't see the same level of nastiness coming from the Sanders side than the Clinton side.

[redgreenandblue]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Goblinmonger (a host of the 2016 Postmortem forum).

By a poll done on DU a while back, Sanders supporters outnumber Clinton supporters by about 4 to 1 here. The ratio with regards to rude remarks seems to be at best about even (truth be told, that is a little generous, probably it is more like two to three rude comments from Clinton supporters for one coming from a Sanders supporter). So in other words, Clinton supporters are generating a way disproportionate amount of negativity here. As for reports of rude Sanders supporters outside of DU, I always take them with a grain of salt. Who knows who is who on the internet.

To be honest, a Sanders presidency was always a long shot. I think the biggest reason for this is that a lot of people don't feel like a candidate who openly embraces the socialist label is viable in the GE. In particular those who have lived through hard times are more likely to stick to a formula that has worked reasonably well for them in the past. Young people are more open to trying new things, hence the different degree of support for the Sanders insurgency in different demographics. In fact, it is remarkable that he has done as well as he has.

But here on DU, some people seem to have an almost pathological hatred for the left for some reason. This is very strange, considering that this is supposed to be a liberal board.

I'm glad that Sanders will be staying in the race to the end. Even if he loses, which is likely, if he manages to get about 40% of the delegates in a campaign that was supposed to be a cakewalk for the mainstream candidate, hopefully the Democratic party will get the memo.

[Armstead]

1. Too many Democrats have a pathological hatred of liberalism, not just "the left"

[AgingAmerican]

4. Creeping fascism

Drilled into peoples heads since the 1980s

[jfern]

20. But yet every criticism is from the right according to them

I had one tell me my saying she was too hawkish was a criticism from the right.

[AgingAmerican]

2. Too many of Hillary supporters have adopted the 'Neener! Neener! Neener!' approach

To political discourse.

[pat_k]

3. "I'm glad that Sanders will be staying in the race"

You and me both.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511507143

[highprincipleswork]

5. I'm with Bernie absolutely till "the end", and probably till beyond the end. He stands for the right

things, and he really stands for them, unlike some who pretend to stand for something and then duck and run later.

I'm totally into Bernie and what he has brought back to the Democratic Party, and I'm sticking with it for the long haul, in whatever form I can find it in.

If Hillary surprises many of us and acts like the Progressive her supporters claim her to be, that would be fine with me. If not, however, I remain fully in charge of my options, as do we all.

I am really disappointed that PoC seem to think she is the safe choice, but that is not my call to make, and everyone gets to make their most enlightened decision. I will not forget this, however. To me, it is a betrayal. Of the Progressive principles we have fought for together for a long, long time.

And if Hillary acts true to past form, and reneges on her positions or negotiates and gives away too much, things that hurt people here who actively support her and vouch for her (as she and Bill have done before), I'm sorry, I am definitely going to call on some "I told you so". I doubt that I will be able to rise above it.

[pnwmom]

14. You feel betrayed by PoC and will not forget their decision. Wow. Listen to yourself. n/t

[GoldenThunder]

34. Most Black Americans are conservative by nature.

Especially so in the south. Southern Black culture revolves around the church and strong conservative family values. Voting Democrat for them isn't about issues it's about survival. The other side literally wants to destroy them. It was the conservative Black community in California that got Prop 8 passed and I have no doubt that there is significant support for North Carolina' new "Bathroom Bill" from conservative black people there as well. That is not racism. It's the truth.

[pnwmom]

42. It was church membership, not race, that connected those who worked for Prop 8.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us/politics/15marriage.html?_r=0

As proponents of same-sex marriage across the country planned protests on Saturday against the ban, interviews with the main forces behind the ballot measure showed how close its backers believe it came to defeat — and the extraordinary role Mormons played in helping to pass it with money, institutional support and dedicated volunteers.

“We’ve spoken out on other issues, we’ve spoken out on abortion, we’ve spoken out on those other kinds of things,” said Michael R. Otterson, the managing director of public affairs for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the Mormons are formally called, in Salt Lake City. “But we don’t get involved to the degree we did on this.”

SNIP

First approached by the Roman Catholic archbishop of San Francisco a few weeks after the California Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage in May, the Mormons were the last major religious group to join the campaign, and the final spice in an unusual stew that included Catholics, evangelical Christians, conservative black and Latino pastors, and myriad smaller ethnic groups with strong religious ties.

Shortly after receiving the invitation from the San Francisco Archdiocese, the Mormon leadership in Salt Lake City issued a four-paragraph decree to be read to congregations, saying “the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan,” and urging members to become involved with the cause.

[pinebox]

59. I would urge you to study this

[glowing]

38. 2 different thought steams and if you read it any different, I suggest re-reading.

Poster think PoC aren't doing their voices and needs the best served by placing Clinton in charge again... 1 thought.

2nd thought in a stream of consciousness... Is in general, progressives have been fighting for the things Sanders has brought to the table time and time again.... And when we don't get those things, what will people do? When the Syrian war happens, how will you feel? When social security is cut, what will millions of seniors do? She's in many ways to the right of President Obama, and she's incredibly corrupt. They will still have th Clinton Foundation while she's President. I don't think there is anything paralleled to the Clintons in the Dem party. The items Bush couldn't accomplish for the wealthy, I believe she will be able to. What will Dems say? And then there's the other level of, anything said against her will be spun to be "sexist"; even if she's signing away women's rights.

[KPN]

53. If she wins, she will most likely be a one-termer.

Based in part on "when we don't get those things" as you suggested. But, frankly, I don't think she can win the GE. ... At present, she does appear to have a solid hold on the nomination, to my chagrin, but that could change. One never knows.

Bernie needs to stay in this thing till the end. If Kasich can justify hanging around, Bernie damn sure can.

[grasswire]

6. it has been suggested...

...that the reason for this is that Hillary models bitterness and snark and deceit. Bernie models hope and integrity and good character.

[Voice for Peace]

11. That's my opinion as well. Her influence on people

(probably with a few exceptions) is a negative.

And not a good role model for little girls.

[Onlooker]

7. Funny, I feel the opposite ...

...

I supported Sanders and voted for him, but switched to Hillary because of all the attacks on her -- her cackling, her smirk, she's a liar, she's a neocon, comparisons of her to Nixon and Bush, she's corrupt, she's bought, she racist, she's homophobic, she stood by while her husband raped women, she put our national security at risk, etc. In my opinion, the types of attacks on Hillary were all broad and often subtly sexist, while the attacks on Sanders were far more narrow. I found the attacks on Hillary more and more infuriating, and ultimately they pushed me to be a Hillary supporter.

[pnwmom]

15. That is similar to what happened to me, Onlooker. I was still not sure after a couple of debates,

but the more I defended her from really nasty and/or unfounded attacks, the more I started to appreciate her tenacity and strength. And it made me like her even more and helped me decide.

[Onlooker]

19. Yeah, I agree ...

...

Whatever one thinks of Hillary, she is an amazingly strong person. She's easily the toughest candidate in the race, and my guess is that she will do to Trump what no one else has done -- she'll take him down. It will be a beautiful sight. That said, I do like the fact that Bernie has pushed her to the left on a lot of issues, and I hope he uses his influence to make the Democratic Platform a document we can all be proud of.

[pnwmom]

21. Yes. He helped prove that that the base wanted to move further left -- good for him. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

62. The subject of this thread is 'where the nastiness comes from' and I say the answer is transparent

Posts hidden by Jury: 10
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=110836&sub=trans

Here's one of yours that you should all be super proud of:

" I don't agree with Bernie supporters tacit support for Islamo-fascist regimes ...
It's bizarre the way many Bernie supporters defend ISIS and Qadaffi. I will say, though, I have the same issue with the FDR who did not enter WWII until after millions of Jews were killed."


Hard to get more nasty than that. Very hard.

[Onlooker]

64. Not really ...

Some Bernie supporters maintain that the death of Qadaffi was a bad thing (and blame Hillary) and oppose interventions to fight ISIS (and call Hillary a neocon), and FDR did fail to protect the Jews in Germany. He entered the war way too late. My parents had friends whose parents were on a boat from Germany that was turned back by FDR, and their parents perished in the concentration camps. FDR was great on the New Deal, and when we finally entered WWII he did so the right way, but he waited much too long.

[Voice for Peace]

18. Yeah I expected to like and support her till she started lying again.

She seems to cause a willful blindness in her fans. bc she's a victim, these criticisms, based soundly mostly in fact, are irrelevant.

Exactly like a bully. Mean girls.

[Surya Gayatri]

27. Back in the autumn, I really was neutral. And, I STILL like some of the Bern's ideas.

But, as the Bros. and Babes geared up, and their tone became SO debased and personal, I just gravitated naturally to Clinton.

Now, I cannot bear the man. His shallow, self-righteous ranting and increasingly personal ad hominen attacks on Hillary are unconscionable.

[pnwmom]

43. +1. n/t

[Cosmocat]

36. Its republican like

Has been all along, from the day he announced.

I am voting bernie because he is more right on the issues, and is balls out in speaking to progressive policy.

But, I have been appalled at how vitriolic bernie supporters have been here, going on a year now, and dealing w them is like dealing w consrvatives, always the victim and always accusing others of what they are doing.

Its completely differnent from bho, whose supporters were much more confident and positively focused.

Fromday one its been like how the right attacks hillary here, its bizarre how you see the contadictions.

[nolawarlock]

8. I feel quite the opposite

In fact, I actually liked Sanders till I started tuning into this site again. Then I saw all the hate and I thought, this is what this man inspires?

[pnwmom]

17. +1. nt

[Surya Gayatri]

26. My experience exactly, nolawarlock.

[smiley]

44. ignore

[Human101948]

54. If it upsets you, that's a good reason to stay away!

But you seem to be enjoying slinging it as much as you get.

[cloudythescribbler]

9. yes, the per capita nastiness from DU Hillary supporters is MUCH higher -- but don't expect ...

... either them or the national Democratic Party (which also has a passionate hatred of the Left, often expressed veiledly but unmistakeably) to "get the memo". Indeed, Hillary's win, no matter how unexpectedly strongly contested by Bernie, will only reinforce the sense at both levels that they were right. Just look at Boston Bean's recent thread about not having "compassion" (itself disgustingly condescending) for Bernie supporters in defeat; also read David Brooks' column in Tues NY Times equating Trump and Sanders as 'one narrative' leaders. The national Party like the power elite generally only bite back harder after the kind of challenges posed by Bernie's candidacy.

In my own personal experience, before an issue is raised acutely that should deeply concern anyone, including of the elite,with any modicum of decency, they don't do anything, pretending to the extent possible that the issue doesn't even exist. Then they continue, as right as possible, ignoring an issue as much as possible, which may or may not be less possible, hence with some possibility of concession, always with the intent of going back on any purported concession at the soonest possible opportunity, all while protestating that they have only the best of intentions and any suggestions to the contrary are simply madness. And there are lots of ambitious folk to 'justify the lying' along these lines. The hope is always that the intensity of concern, once raised, will die down, as it often or even usually does, and then comes the 'counter-reformation'. This was true of the rise of Jim Crow after the end of ReConstruction (and before), and the rise of the New Jim Crow after the Civil Rights Era. And it isn't only in areas of race at all, necessarily.

This is exactly the pattern you can expect in response to any assertion of the (relatively) progressive wing of the Democratic Party -- to which the mainstream elite are in fact much less eager to make serious concessions than to outrage on the right, no matter how bogus on the facts etc etc. And don't think that the more progressive-sounding Hillary is an indication of what the neoliberals have in mind generally. What is needed, and increasingly the central focus on Bernie's candidacy is in building that wing of the Democratic Party both for the Convention (with a concrete list of demands, from climate issues to process like opposing "closed" primaries) and starting day 1 after the November election no matter who wins.

I definitely do NOT stand with those -- especially if they are eligible to vote in states that are in play -- who won't bother or dare to vote for Hillary if she is the nominee, to stop the GOP. But either way, Bernie needs to hold as much of his organization and network together and after the election use this to form the seed of a progressive opposition both within and outside the Democratic Party. The Rainbow Coalition faded and we got Clinton Democrats in the 90s, with only minimal progressive opposition in the US from the Left. And aside from the anti-war movement on Iraq, which didn't sustain as effectively after the first months of the war, ironically after the absence of WMDs was exposed, progressive opposition to W Bush was mainly within the framework of the Democratic Party, and the progressive wing was weak. Obama seemed like he might at least straddle the two wings of the Party, and I supported him strongly for president from day 1 -- he turned out to be another neoliberal president, tho quite arguably more progressive than a Clinton Democrat. But during the Obama presidency, the progressive failure to mobilize and effective opposition almost matched that during the Clinton presidency, although the "Occupy" movement was something of a hopeful interlude ,though it rapidly faded; then the Black Lives Matter movement together with Michelle Alexander's powerful critique of the New Jim Crow and that has had and continues to have much more staying power. Now Bernie's candidacy raises the OPPORTUNITY but not the fait accomplis -- and by itself the neoliberal elite will never "get the message" from the relatively progressive wing of the Democratic Party. No, that will require mobilization and a sustained progressive opposition, with ample linkage within and outside the electoral arena between the plutocracy issue that is Bernie's calling card and both a much more vigorous approach to climate (which he did touch upon in the debate last Thurs) as well as the Black Lives Matter/New Jim Crow movement. A Hillary presidency would provide plenty for progressives of all kinds of constituencies to come together on, so the notion that Bernie's movement is overwhelmingly white should be able to be quickly radically mitigated if not completely overcome by the end of 2017 (under a Clinton presidency). Of course, the GOP will continue to control the House, so not much will be possible legislatively anyway. Under a Trump presidency, again the neoliberals will be able to keep the progressives confused with a shell game, as happened thru most of the W presidency, in the absence of a Rainbow Coalition.

In other words, they won't "get" any memo -- just as Bernie stepped up to the plate to mount this very positive candidacy, he will need to step up to the plate, if he fails to get the nomination, to help lead an ORGANIZED (relatively) progressive wing of the Democratic Party as well as Independents. (He may indeed want urgently to return to his status of an Independent, but hopefully something will remain to continue the struggle within the Democratic Party as well).

[GoldenThunder]

35. Here it is in a nutshell.

The Republican Party fears its base. The Democratic Party hates its base.

[ms liberty]

37. This, a million times. n/t

[PufPuf23]

63. Thank you for the thoughtful post. I agree with most. eom

[Buzz cook]

10. It depends on who's ox is being gored.

Threatening to help Trump become president is the nastiest thing I can think of. Not many Clinton supporters making that threat.

[SwampG8r]

23. Her supporters.make that threat

Considering he will clean her clock in the ge

[pnwmom]

12. When I was still trying to figure out who I was going to support, I was shocked by the level

of nastiness coming from the Bernie side. Not from O'Malley supporters, though -- just from some Bernie supporters.

The more I posted answers to the lies, the more I realized that she was a really solid candidate and I wanted to support her.

Here is something else I noticed early on: that Bernie supporters often made very personal attacks against Hillary -- using Rethug ammunition. But Hillary supporters usually stressed that they liked Bernie BUT disagreed with his positions.

Over time, Hillary supporters have gotten more negative. But they didn't start out that way.

[TCJ70]

52. We saw very different things then...

...most of what I heard from the Hillary folks early on were electability arguments, not being able to win more than his home state, socialist crap. In fact, I saw people saying they like Bernie AND his positions but figured he couldn't possibly win (made possible by them not voting for things they admitted they like).

[Donald Ian Rankin]

13. "I really do not see the signal" N.T.

[phleshdef]

16. I'm a Sanders supporter and any criticisms of Clinton I've voiced here have been very, very mild.

I've also taken up for her on various things like the witch hunt over her email setup or the Benghazi bullshit and of course, hot sauce gate, lol. Hillary Clinton does not inspire me and I don't like the drama that seems to constantly surround the Clintons... much of it their own doing. But I think she is quite intelligent and quite capable, especially compared to the alternatives on the other side. I don't think she would screw up Obama's legacy.

[senz]

22. For me, the classic DU paradigm is a group of enthusiastic Bernie supporters commenting happily

about something that happened with Bernie, and then a jaded, cynical Hill fan comes in mocking and sneering at us for being happy, and shortly after that, another jaded sneering Hill fan, then another and another until they have a swarm. They all seem so proud of themselves while doing it.

What's not to love about that? It's become so predictable.

And tonight we see how put upon they all feel. Amazing! They hate us and wish we'd leave.

I'm actually glad they came out tonight and let us see them as they are, clearly.

[leftynyc]

24. And I see the opposite

And I don't think it's even close. There are certain posters here who take any opportunity, any thread, to crap all over Hillary. It's been that way for months.

[BigBearJohn]

25. I mean, c'mon, why would anybody vote for Hillary unless

they also possessed the same sneering attributes of their leader? Birds of a feather...

[Surya Gayatri]

32. Seriesly? BERNIE IS BRINGING THE WORLD TOGETHER?...As evidenced by

your own words:

"...they also possess the same sneering attributes of their leader..."

Well, isn't that just all warm and cuddly. A true kumbaya moment.

[Eko]

28. That is odd.

Most of the nastiness I encounter here is from Sanders supporters and I am a sanders supporter.

[Eko]

29. I mean really, show me where the equilivant is for this.

"She is also fond of the practice of leaving brown kids toys to play with via the fun high tech pinatas known as cluster bombs. Those are expensive little toys those things spread around for children to play with, it takes a special kinda person to do whatever they can to make sure there will not be less of them to play with.

Arabic speaking children require special love and Hillary by far has shown them so much of that special love."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=553572

[dubyadiprecession]

30. BS's 15 minutes of fame is almost up....

It's a good thing he still has his day job.

[Cobalt Violet]

31. the further to the right people are the meaner and nastier they get.

So that would make sense that bernie supporters are less nasty. I've got most of the bad one on ignore and it's much better here now. I don't care to ever deal with them agains.

[PBass]

33. I think a lot of Hillary supporters were driven off DU by the bickering.

Those folks will come back eventually.

By the way, Bernie's campaign slogan FEEL THE BERN! is pretty confrontational. It's like saying IN YOUR FACE! Burn is slang for an insult.

It didn't turn out to be a winning slogan. Voters want a positive vision for the future. "A future we can believe in" was a thousand times better than "Feel the Bern!" but that's not so useful when you're bickering with somebody on DU, I guess.

[BeyondGeography]

39. Corporate whores, anyone?

Lots of fine Sanders supporters here but, uh, thanks for the laugh.

[Human101948]

56. But some people do dress up and hang around on D.C. street corners...

DNC rolls back Obama ban on contributions from federal lobbyists

The Democratic National Committee has rolled back restrictions introduced by presidential candidate Barack Obama in 2008 that banned donations from federal lobbyists and political action committees...

...Reformers complain that the new rules have already changed Washington ethics. They provide opportunities for “influence-buying by Washington lobbyists with six-figure contributions to the Hillary Victory Fund,” said Wertheimer, suggesting that lobbyists could also face “political extortion” from those raising the money.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/dnc-allowing-donations-from-federal-lobbyists-and-pacs/2016/02/12/22b1c38c-d196-11e5-88cd-753e80cd29ad_story.html

[HillareeeHillaraah]

40. The "brick" incident ....

told any observer about the vitriol problem and its source...

[MrMickeysMom]

41. One caveat - the probability...

I believe the probability drastically increases upon the convention and super delegates, who after all, do not want a Democratic loss.

Those statistics are clear in that Sanders has the HIGHEST probability of defeating the Republican candidate. Even super delegates are not that obtuse.

I'm glad, too, and not surprised that Sanders is in this to win this. I'm personally going to make sure that happens in PA.

[Adrahil]

45. Then you haven't been paying attention.

I've been called an elitist, Republican-lite, a hater of democracy. I've been told I don't care abou the 99%, amd a warmonger, and like to kick puppies. Okay, I added that last one.

I agree that the football spiking has been a little strong. But TBH, a lot of it is a reaction to constant attacks on us, or ridiculous, hysterical attacks on Clinton.

[brooklynite]

46. The anti-Clinton venom actually started before Sanders got in to the race.

[vintx]

47. Bernie's supporters call *her* a shill (and she is), they call Bernie's supporters TEA BAGGERS

Kinda obvious which side is nasty.

[gollygee]

48. Maybe not today

But overall I think the Bernie supporters have been nastier, though there's been a good amount of nastiness from both sides.

[Ace Rothstein]

49. I completely disagree.

I like Sanders a lot, voted for him in the Illinois primary. He's probably the most honest politician of my lifetime. Most of his supporters though? I could do without them.

[jcgoldie]

50. Its called irony

Creating a post out of thin air about how supporters of the opposing candidate are disproportionately negative and then asserting in the next paragraph that support of said candidate can only be explained by the fact that those who do so have a "pathological hatred for the left." Way to keep it clean and illustrate your point!

[JackInGreen]

51. I certainly agree

Reference: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/bernie-sanders-vermont-democratic-support-219631

[Orsino]

55. Recess isn't over yet.

We'll have to endure a certain amount of taunting before teacher calls us back inside.

[Dem2]

57. Blinders off please

Your analysis is wrong based on the view of someone who likes both candidates.

[randome]

58. And this one's views match yours.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Lizzie Poppet]

60. Agreed.

Progressives are no longer welcome in the party...and Princess Weathervane's crew seem to take delight in making that clear in the nastiest ways then can think of.

[mythology]

61. So you're saying that the side you agree with is better?

Odd that.

Both sides have had some supporters who have acted poorly.

[One of the 99]

65. Either you are blind or

just ignoring what you don't want to see.

Both sides have been equally nasty of late and need to cut it out.

[Goblinmonger]

66. Locking

A forum for general discussion of the Democratic presidential primaries. Disruptive meta-discussion is forbidden.