About the "Sanders won more counties in NY" argument that has been put forth.

[NCTraveler]

It is a serious issue that should be addressed.

Farmer John owns 15 acres in Hamilton County, NY. He voted for Sanders as did the county.

Sheniah lives in an apartment complex in the Bronx, consisting of 816 units at just over 800 sq ft/unit. That would be 15 acres worth of apartment living space. In those 816 unit a total of 1000 people actually voted, including Sheniah.

Can someone please tell me how you would explain to Sheniah that all of the votes from her apartment complex should only count as much as the one land owner a couple of counties over?

That argument is the exact same as going with the thought that counties themselves should be what is equally represented, and not the people.

[rjsquirrel]

1. It's Republican Logic

Land has more votes than people.

[artyteacher]

12. yeah, its the same argument cons make.... eom

[cherokeeprogressive]

2. This bothers you why? She won. Get over it.

Never have I seen a group search so desperately to find each and every possible way to rub peoples' face in the dirt.

[NCTraveler]

3. I am not rubbing anyones face in anything.

Considering the acreage argument has been put forth, I think it is an excellent topic to discuss here.

[cherokeeprogressive]

7. How have I beaten thee... let me count the ways...

Hillary Clinton won. That Bernie Sanders won more counties changes that not a whit.

Goodness gracious me accept it and move on.

[NCTraveler]

9. I understand you don't think the argument that has been put forth by Sanders supporters....

is worthy of discussion. Why make multiple comments in an effort to simply shut the conversation down? Why not just not comment and move on? There are tons of things being discussed here.

This isn't something old. This argument being put forth by some Sanders supporters is very recent. It should be open for discussion. We have a lot of new people around and that it exciting. These discussions should be educational. I don't get your need to attempt to silence such a discussion.

[rjsquirrel]

14. Very recent?

Yes, like Devine declaring yesterday that caucuses aren't democratic (previous argument: caucuses are more democratic because Bernie wins them more often).

Any argument in a storm I guess. But the GOP has argued for decades that winning more acreage is more important than winning more votes.

Sanders wins in rural areas because they are whiter, more misogynistic, and like guns. That's a winning progressive coalition right there.

[NCTraveler]

16. Yes. Very recently.

"But the GOP has argued for decades that winning more acreage is more important than winning more votes."

Yes again.

Well, yes all the way around. lol.

[rjsquirrel]

18. I'm saying

it's an old argument made by losers.

When Romney and McCain lost many GOP commentators liked to show maps of the US that were mostly red.


The problem for Bernie is the same as for the GOP. Grass, cows, and trees don't vote.

It's recent to hear this argument in a democratic context, I concede. But it is a sore loser's butthurt argument from way back.

[NCTraveler]

24. I should have used the word "agree" instead of "yes" in my response to you.

And outlined that the recent part I'm talking about is the argument being presented by "progressives."

[cherokeeprogressive]

28. You're right. Here's my comment... then I'll move on.

Hillary Wins New York with Historic Numbers! Congratulations Hillary!

I hope that at least makes someone feel good about it.

[HillareeeHillaraah]

19. Yes, land owners should have their vote given greater weight

Than renters. That's true democracy....there could be a formula to calculate it

Like land owners are a full vote and renters are 3/5ths

Oh wait...

[NCTraveler]

23. Exactly.

And I find it interesting that the discussion itself is considered by some to be "rubbing faces" in something. That is about as much of a wow moment for me as when some of these people hopefully work their argument out to the last line you presented. I at least hope this little thought experiment got them to think their position through to that line.

[HillareeeHillaraah]

26. One can only hope... eom

[Vinca]

4. FYI - my husband just heard that the turnout in the NY primary was the 2nd lowest in history.

That tells you how "excited" people are in this election. Or how shut out.

[NCTraveler]

6. I find it to be a serious issue.

Obama was amazing and probably one of the best campaigners I have ever seen.

[Vinca]

8. I think you responded to the wrong post.

In any case, another thought on your OP. The idea of 1 delegate vote for a county that is mostly open land vs. 1 delegate vote for thousands of people in a small section of the city is not unlike how our Senators are allocated. California gets 2 and Rhode Island gets 2. That's not terribly fair either. Guess we need to change some laws.

[NCTraveler]

10. There are many issues with the current system I have.

Because this is the one I am discussing doesn't mean that it is the only one.

I did not respond to the wrong post. You made a point about voter enthusiasm. I agree that it is an issue. I really wish we had someone that excited people and got them to the polls other than Clinton. Obama was brilliant at it. I do think we have an enthusiasm problem.

[Vinca]

11. I agree with you there. Obama was a once-in-a-lifetime candidate.

[Bluenorthwest]

27. And yet Obama lost NY by a larger margin than Bernie did and the turnout in 2008 in NY was

abysmal, just as it was this week. Among the very lowest in the country and the lowest of any Blue State.

[NCTraveler]

30. Was there a difference in the placement of the NY primary in '08?

And if we are going to simply go with your argument, did that turn into enthusiasm in the general?

That is an important aspect you bring up. Thanks.

[rjsquirrel]

15. Or

It tells you that most New Yorkers could see the result was going to be a lopsided Clinton win.

Where were the Sanders voters? All purged from the rolls? All forgot to switch their registrations as per a 40 up year old rule of NY elections? Where was all that big rally excitement!

Oh yeah, suppressed by Debbie Wasserman Schulz and her evil cabal of neoliberal witches, right?

I voted in NY yesterday. In my polling place there were tons of determined people. And almost all were older folks voting for Clinton. No childish excitement, just simple, quiet determination to elect the right person. Clinton supporters don't yell as loudly. They vote more often.

Guess help who always shows up to vote?

[dsc]

22. your husband heard wrong

http://www.thesetonian.com/2016/04/20/new-york-primary-elections-see-rise-in-voter-turnout/

It is pretty much the opposite (2nd highest turnout not 2nd lowest)

[Bluenorthwest]

29. 19.7 percent of eligible New Yorkers cast a ballot, Second lowest turnout after LA so far this cycle

19.7 percent of eligible New Yorkers cast a ballot, the second-lowest voter turnout among primary states after Louisiana, according to elections expert Michael McDonald. There were over 900 calls from frustrated voters to the Election Protection Coalition, more than in any other primary state.
http://www.thenation.com/article/new-york-had-the-second-lowest-voter-turnout-so-far-this-election-season/

Yes, that is up slightly from the 19.2% in 2014 but still bottom five out of the Sates, just like in 2014, 2012, 2010, 2008.....

[dsc]

33. that isn't what he heard or she said

she said he heard that it was the 2nd lowest in history (compared to past years) not 2nd lowest compared to other states.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Do you know how low NY's turnouts have been historically? Answer: Shamefully low...

NYC turnout has historically been even lower than that of the State at large. I have not seen very solid data as yet but it sort of looks like this time there was maybe 12% Democratic turnout in the City as compared to the previous 11%. It's still indicative of large problems and a lack of voter trust.

I live in Oregon, we are also a closed Primary. We consistently have more than twice the turnout NY manages. That's something NY should not be content with at all. It's also not just in Primaries that NY fails to vote, it's in local elections and every sort of cycle of election. Those who run for city offices are concerned because 8.5 million people with a million voting for the winner is not much of a mandate and it becomes hard to campaign to that needle in a haystack, that on person in eight who is paying attention to the candidates.

NY's low participation rates are contrasted with their registration rates which are really good. NYers register but rarely follow through by voting and those who vote do not always do so consistently. That indicates that the problems lie in election day issues.

[Vinca]

50. He must have heard it incorrectly. I'll be sure to flog him for you.

[dsc]

53. I am sorry for having the audacity to point out that you had said pretty much

the opposite of what the truth was. The fact is, as bad as New York's turn out was (and it wasn't great by any stretch) it was actually pretty good turnout for them.

[LexVegas]

5. Is that seriously being discussed by someone?

[Codeine]

17. Several someones.

One of them was insistent that Bernie would be receiving 8 more delegates from NY because he won so many counties.

There's a spectacular level of ignorance around here.

[rjsquirrel]

20. See the real thing is

that according to BOTH Republicans and Sanders supporters, Farmer John should get 15 more votes than Sheniah because he's a white man, sovereign on the land, armed and ready to make his stand, a real Amurrrrican hero.

[morningfog]

21. You misconstrue the argument.

We don't nominate by popular vote. There are no equal votes in the primary. Since we use proportional delegate allocation and states are given numbers of delegates based on criteria other than population and since caucuses do not rely on popular vote an since supers are in no way related to popular vote, there are no equal votes in the primary process. It is not "one person one vote."

You have to start there to understand the point. The point is that while Hillary certainly has received more votes and outperforms in city centers, she has noticiable weaknesses in rural democratic leaning areas. The point is not that the county should count more or the same. It doesn't and it shouldn't. The point is, Hillary's camp needs to analyze and understand her weaknesses as a candidate with democratic leaning voters to plan for and address it in the general.

The other point is that in the unlikely event that Bernie matches or bests Hillary in the pledged delegate count, supers should take a close look at the respective coalition of each candidate. That look would include Bernie's broad appeal with independent and rural voters.

[NCTraveler]

37. Your whole second paragrapn is bunk.

She won democratic leaning voters by a landslide. An absolute landslide by anyone's interpretation.

Many of the rural areas you mention do not lean democratic in the general. It is well know they are the more conservative areas. I wasn't even aware that was an argument.

Take Hamilton County that I mentioned in the op. It went huge for McCain.

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/results/president/map.html

"The point is, Hillary's camp needs to analyze and understand her weaknesses as a candidate with democratic leaning voters to plan for and address it in the general. "

Once again, she flat out won democratic leaning voters by a landslide in NY.

[morningfog]

42. Thankfully, the Hillary Campaign will not be so dismissive and uncurious.

[NCTraveler]

45. Not one single word of my post was dismissive. It was simply correcting your blatant inaccuracies.

I do not dismiss voters. Not from the North, South, East, West, Urban, Rural, etc.

[baldguy]

25. Cows & cornfields are more important to them than human beings.

[CrowCityDem]

32. It's because the polygons upstate look big, and bigger is always better, right?

[NurseJackie]

34. Are they "visual" people who have difficulty conceptualizing abstract ideas and facts.

I can easily imagine that people who ACTUALLY believe that acres are more important than population or delegates are the SAME types of individuals who'd think that a TALL 4-ounce glass of orange juice contains "more" than a short 6-ounce glass of orange juice.

You know... because it's TALLER it must have MORE inside.

[geek tragedy]

35. it's desperate spin nt

[IamMab]

36. SCOTUS just ruled on this issue recently, and yes, it was a GOP lawsuit trying to make it happen.

Just more evidence that DU is infested with non-Democrats openly pushing GOP ideas as "progressive."

ETA: SCOTUS ruled against the Republicans, and "one person, one vote" was preserved.

[Lucinda]

40. This.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

48. someone yesterday posted that if not bernie, he may vote for trump

because trump is the left of clinton.

this is what DU has come down to.

[Jitter65]

39. Sanders didn't get ALL the votes in those areas, remember that. nt

[Lucinda]

41. I cannot believe this has to be explained on a political message board

But you did it beautifully!

[auntpurl]

43. It's almost like some Sanders supporters have never voted in an election before

"What, I have to register with a party to vote in a closed primary?"

"What, just because it looks on a map like Bernie won more SPACE in New York, that doesn't mean he won?"

"What, this flyer that came through my door attached to a political ad isn't a real ballot?"

"What, everyone else doesn't believe exactly as I do?"

[Lucinda]

44. Yep. And as happy as I am to see new voters, those bringing them in have failed

miserably in helping to educate them, which will lead to a whole lot of hard feelings.

And for the older voters that havent bothered to learn the rules of their party, I am just
I'm seeing sooo much drama, from long time posters here, about things that I thought were common knowledge.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

49. this. all day long. nt

[obamanut2012]

46. HRC won 21 CDs, Bernie won 6 CDs

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. because we prefer how white people vote, and they are likely to be rural and suburban

so we should count county wise.

[DemocracyDirect]

51. It certainly would make it easier to manipulate the results...

... when most of the votes are in one small area and controlled by a handful of people

... who all support you.

[Cali_Democrat]

52. Excellent OP

[La Lioness Priyanka]

54. kicking for people still making county arguments