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Wed Apr 27, 2016, 09:25 PM

Why, and why not, to "Call It"...

First, a primer for people who aren't familiar with DU's process:

Every election season, at some point, DU goes into "GE Footing". The reason is pretty clearly stated in the TOS:

Everyone here on DU needs to work together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. If you are bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for our candidates during election season, we'll assume you are rooting for the other side.


The reason why DU must, at some point, enact this policy isn't truly to discourage Democratic participation, but because it's impossible to tell if a poster's criticism of the Nominee or other Democrats running is legitimate concern or GOP baiting. If you've never served on the MIR team, you may be blissfully unaware of just how crazy it gets -- but even outside of election season, DU is such a popular forum that GOP trolls show up all the time.

It's also because even if we may never nominate a perfect candidate, WHOEVER we nominate is better than the alternative. Obama, as great of a job as he did, was not in politics long before his election in 2008. Continuing to harp on that after he was our Nominee wasn't going to help us defeat McCain. We needed to be working on building him up, not tearing him down. He chose a running mate with a great deal of experience in public service, and that's one way we deal with a nominee's less than stellar attributes. No President does it alone. Hillary will, if she does win the Nomination, look for a running mate to overcome her own negatives. I'm not sure who she'd pick and who would say yes, but I have confidence it will be someone both experienced and to her left on several areas. (Would Dennis Kucinich accept? I always liked him.)

Finally, people want to come to DU and see constructive discussion of how to make our party and country better. Primaries, while they are ESSENTIAL to our Party and Democracy because we do need a chance to vote our conscience, and it's the way we show the direction we want the party to go -- can get extremely ugly when we become attached to our candidate. There comes a point when the ugliness is not helping the Party anymore.

But there are also good reasons NOT to rush to a call, (and no, they don't include things I wanted to slap my candidate for saying in 08).

First, we still have states that haven't voted. Even if the math seems terrible, they deserve the chance to vote. Until they get that chance, suppressing their voice on DU too is not going to help with the fact they may rightly feel disenfranchised already because their states are voting so late.

Second, people who are passionate about the Party and their candidate deserve some time to come to terms with what our election gave us. I don't think our process is anything close to perfect, but we can try to learn and make future primaries more Democratic. We need to listen, as a Party, to those in it who have legitimate criticisms of how the process played out this time, and try to make positive changes (alternatives to Saturday voting, just as one example). If we do listen, and do try to work together, it will help people feel less ignored, shunned, left out.... and that's a huge theme I am seeing here among dedicated Bernie supporters.

Third, those dedicated and passionate supporters have obviously demonstrated they do care about the Party enough to actually participate in the Primary process, which speaks to their ability to work with the Party if they are welcomed instead of feeling like they are tossed aside just because their candidate didn't win. I want to see civility and constructive work to get Democrats elected. I want to see that passion help us in the General.

So instead of asking Skinner to "call it" just yet, I propose that those of us who want to have Democratic Underground not suck try to reason instead of attack... sympathize with instead of insult, listen rather than assume...

And try to remember we really are on the same side.


25 replies, 1389 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 25 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why, and why not, to "Call It"... (Original post)
moriah Apr 2016 OP
onecaliberal Apr 2016 #1
Joe the Revelator Apr 2016 #2
moriah Apr 2016 #4
workinclasszero Apr 2016 #15
moriah Apr 2016 #17
cwydro Apr 2016 #19
choie Apr 2016 #3
moriah Apr 2016 #7
grossproffit Apr 2016 #5
moriah Apr 2016 #6
jillan Apr 2016 #8
moriah Apr 2016 #11
Hiraeth Apr 2016 #22
moriah Apr 2016 #23
NanceGreggs Apr 2016 #9
moriah Apr 2016 #12
NanceGreggs Apr 2016 #14
moriah Apr 2016 #16
NanceGreggs Apr 2016 #18
cwydro Apr 2016 #25
Dem2 Apr 2016 #10
moriah Apr 2016 #13
Demsrule86 Apr 2016 #20
moriah Apr 2016 #21
Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #24

Response to moriah (Original post)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 09:28 PM

1. Glad you think it should be called before the largest state in the union votes. There are at least

9 other states and California. Until everyone votes there should be NO talk about calling it, unless you're not for democratic elections. They're not just for foreign countries we invade.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 09:30 PM

2. Progressives will welcome Hillary with flowers and candy

 

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 09:34 PM

4. Please, I ask you to either read my post again....

... or to read your reply and see if you left a word out.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 10:42 PM

15. California can still vote, whos stopping them?

 

Hillary has the nomination locked up though, it is what it is.

But a "democratic board" that allows the nominee of the party to get beaten up, slandered and lied about now is helping Trump and the republicans, period.

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #15)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 11:11 PM

17. You were here in 08... do you recall when was it called then?

Otherwise I'm going to have to do some GoogleFu...

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #1)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 05:16 AM

19. I think you should re-read the OP.

You somehow managed to miss the point completely.

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Response to moriah (Original post)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 09:31 PM

3. At this point I'm not really sure that

we're on the same side...

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Response to choie (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 09:58 PM

7. Well, I know what side I'm NOT on...

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Response to moriah (Original post)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 09:35 PM

5. I've been in the place of Bernie supporters before. It sucked.

I get no joy out of knowing that some are very hurt, upset, angry. None whatsoever.

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Response to grossproffit (Reply #5)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 09:37 PM

6. Exactly. It's not fun at all.

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Response to moriah (Original post)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 10:11 PM

8. When Hillary has 2383 Pledged delegates then it should be

called. Not a moment sooner.
Those are the rules of the DNC. And since Hillary is "the only democrat running" that should be understandable to all.

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Response to jillan (Reply #8)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 10:22 PM

11. The rules of the DNC are not the rules of Democratic Underground.

Also, you need to re-read the DNC rules, because otherwise you're suggesting Obama didn't win the 2008 Primary. He didn't get a majority of total delegates by pledged delegates alone.

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Response to moriah (Reply #11)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 02:35 PM

22. and you are not Skinner. He can change and has changed the rules any time it suits him to do so.

and there is nothing wrong with that. He owns this place.

I am just saying.

I don't get the point of your OP at. all.

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Response to Hiraeth (Reply #22)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 02:41 PM

23. That there is a method to Skinner's madness that's about more than ad revenue or suppressing..

... free speech from Democrats, in response to all the threads begging Skinner to make the call now and others vigorously protesting it as a giant conspiracy.

Edit to add: It's possible you didn't see them if your ignore list is larger than mine.

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Response to moriah (Original post)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 10:12 PM

9. A very well thought-out post.

I appreciate the time and effort you put into it - well done all around.

But the truth of the matter remains. If Skinner were to "call it" right now, that would NOT mean stopping Bernie supporters from praising their candidate-of-choice, from discussing his ideas, from encouraging others to GOTV for Bernie in the remaining primary contests and/or contributing to his campaign.

I certainly can't speak for Skinner - but I think we all know by now that he wouldn't stand in the way of Bernie supporters continuing their efforts to have their preferred candidate's voice heard throughout the rest of the primary, despite the fact that he cannot go on to win the nomination.

The only thing Bernie supporters would be prevented from doing is bashing HRC - by way of demeaning her, posting RW talking points that demonize her, or stating that she is only the nominee by virtue of vote theft, bribery, etc.

The fact is that there are some posters here - many posters here - whose only purpose has been to do all of the above: to bash Hillary, to accuse the Democratic Party of "stealing" votes, to accuse the DNC of manipulating vote counts in order to keep Bernie from winning, etc. And those posters will not continue posting here if they can't continue to do so.

Many of us ARE on the same side - but many here aren't, and never have been. There are posters here who have never said a positive thing about Bernie - and yet they've passed themselves off as "BS supporters" in order to post anti-HRC/anti-Dem talking points 24/7. They are easy to spot, they are obvious - and yet they continue to do what they do without interference.

Were Skinner to "call it" right now - which I know he won't, given how much of DU's traffic (revenue) is generated by alleged Bernie supporters - we'd see just how many of them are real supporters, and how many of them are only here to be divisive shit-disturbers intent on getting in their last anti-HRC/anti-Dem licks before they're stopped from doing so.





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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #9)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 10:28 PM

12. I guess I feel waiting a little longer.... at the very least, until all votes are counted...

... is going to do more good with the people who are legitimate Sanders supporters than the bad the shills will do in that time.

Benefit of the doubt, if nothing else, seems fair until then.

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Response to moriah (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 10:39 PM

14. I understand.

For me, there can be no "benefit of the doubt" for the alleged Bernie supporters who (a) have never posted anything pro-Bernie, and (b) people who find it impossible to restrict themselves to pro-Bernie posts without bashing HRC and the Dem Party.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 10:49 PM

16. Have you been one of the poor souls on MIR recently?

To be honest, I was not hugely invested into relatively late in the DU primary schedule (I would have been happy with either). Made my personal decision about January.

Then I had ankle surgery March 15th. So have had a lot on my plate.

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Response to moriah (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 11:31 PM

18. No, I have never been on MIRT.

I have also never "alerted" since the "jury system" was put in place, I don't have an Ignore list, I don't have a jury blacklist, and I am not willing to serve on juries. I find all of that to be pointless, given the way the Admins allow the site to be run.

I'm sorry to hear about your surgery - I hope you are healing comfortably and quickly.

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Response to moriah (Reply #12)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 02:47 PM

25. I agree.

Great OP.

K and r.

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Response to moriah (Original post)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 10:18 PM

10. I agree with you

Let the process play out - if you're a Hillary supporter, relax, let people vent, try to find points of agreement if possible. It's better than gloating and taunting (most don't do this, but it only takes a minority of a minority to ruin the mood for everybody.)

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Response to Dem2 (Reply #10)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 10:37 PM

13. Yep. Especially with the fact people still haven't even been able to vote yet.

I don't think the June voting is going to change the total outcome of the nomination delegates enough to give Bernie a pledged delegate lead, but....

It's still not right to call elections before polls close. For CNN and for us.

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Response to moriah (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 07:39 AM

20. Great post

Thank you. it is quite true that while some of us want to begin the general (me)...some are not ready here...many are longtime DU members also.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #20)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 02:11 PM

21. Thanks. And you're right, it's not just new posters, or even Sanders supporters only...

... who will benefit from processing this Primary. The idea that it's entirely a "grieving" process is short-sighted -- we ALL need to figure out ways to make our Party better, even if you believe the best candidate won.

I like the discussion and interaction idea inherent in the caucus process -- instead of just going in and casting a ballot, the caucuses are great for getting to know your fellow Democrats, talk about the issues that matter as well as the candidates, maybe even change a mind. But maybe in states whose turnout is now overwhelming the caucus process, or to let the people who can't make it at that EXACT time to still be be heard, maybe the solution is to encourage voter discussion sessions before the primary that are scheduled like a caucus would be, and run by the county/state party rather than candidates.

Maybe to reform campaign finance in how it affects the Democratic Nominee decision process,, we ought to consider agreements to raise money jointly to be spent on each state getting to have a Town Hall and voters actually talk with the candidates there, instead of each candidate raising their own money and spending them on TV, radio, and Intenet ads in our primaries.

Okay, so that's probably more of a pipe dream than an idea easily implemented, but it might be worth it just because most people really hate political ads anyway. But more realistic ways to reform what our Party does with funds we aren't using against the GOP are heartily welcomed by me. I feel like every dollar spent in a primary election is one less we weren't able to use against the GOP.

The whole voting on Saturdays, absolutely, needs to be fixed before 2018. If no other solution at all is possible, absentee ballots or early voting must be available for people who have religious observances on Saturdays that are a long-standing part of their faith.

As a Party, even when we're great, we can always get better. When we're obviously NOT great, it's our duty to try to get better.

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Response to moriah (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 02:45 PM

24. Scrutinizing candidates before voting for them is the responsibility of voters in a democracy.

 

Even the established candidates.

All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. Friedrich Nietzsche

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