Am I a Democrat? Are you?

[angrychair]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by one_voice (a host of the 2016 Postmortem forum).

People can argue the finer points but by Clinton's own admission she is a "moderate centrist". While you can make a case for her being a Democrat in a broad sense, the case that she is not to the right of a good portion of Democrats or left-leaning Independents, is a much harder case to make.

At the end of the day, for me, it's not specifically about Sanders but the ideals he has chosen to represent. It is the attack on those ideals, ideals that are central to my identity as a Democrat, that has been so disheartening.

In defense of their candidate, some have gone way over the top. Yes, there have been personal attacks against Sanders and Clinton, yes some have gone to far. That, while troublesome, is not the worst component of this primary season. It was the attacks, on what I consider core Democratic values, by overzealous people, in their attempts to demean, insult or counterattack a Sanders supporter or Sanders himself.
Humiliating and shaming poor and struggling people for only wanting "free stuff". The trade and trafficking in pure right-wing "free stuff" memes was the most disappointing. Making disingenuous claims about taxes and complaining that they don't want their taxes to go up to give poor and struggling people "free stuff" is not a core Democratic value.

Lastly, while many complain about sources, there has been more than once that a person has used a anti Semitic, neo-Nazi, holocaust denying hate site and their batshit crazy conspiracy theories, to attack a Democratic Jewish candidate on a Democratic website.

For those that engaged in these type of attacks, please take time to reevaluate where you are at in your life and what it means to be a Democrat. Attacking poor or struggling families with "free stuff" memes is not being a Democrat.
Attacking struggling or poor students that are drowning in student loan debt while the government makes billions from the interest, is not being a Democrat.
Attacking people for wanting health and dental care, that has little to no barriers to entry, is not being a Democrat.
Attacking a Democratic candidate, on a Democratic website, who is of Jewish heritage, using neo-Nazi hate sites, is not being a Democrat.

[NCTraveler]

1. Real Democrat Checking In!!!!

While it won't for long, my registration card tells me so. Even after the change, I will still consider myself a real democrat. lol.

[angrychair]

6. Sure

One that recommended the very OP I linked above (then removed it, months later, only when I challenged you on it), that used Neo-Nazi hate sites and their batshit crazy conspiracy theories to attack a Democratic candidate of Jewish heritage.

[NCTraveler]

8. Real Democrat Checking In!!!!

While it won't for long, my registration card tells me so. Even after the change, I will still consider myself a real democrat. lol.

[angrychair]

11. Who recommended

At least one OP with neo-Nazi hate sites as a source.
You have not even apologized for it. I do give you credit for taking your name off of it but it took being challenged on it to do that.
I am trying to reach people to admit their mistakes and take the high road and if Clinton becomes president to hold her to higher standards and demand an agenda built on solutions and not a series of compromises that don't actually fix anything.

[NCTraveler]

15. I have no intentions of appologizing to you for anything. Strange demand.

"I am trying to reach people to admit their mistakes "

Wow.

Keep on going on with your banter. It's out there.

[angrychair]

18. Fair point

I stated my comments poorly.

I meant it in a self-evaluation context. You don't owe me anything. People of Jewish heritage on the other hand....

[NCTraveler]

21. "People of Jewish heritage on the other hand...."

You have to be fucking kidding me. How amazingly offensive of you. Demanding I apologize to people of Jewish heritage. How amazingly arrogant of you.

[angrychair]

24. I didn't recommend the OP

Look, at the end of the day, I don't know you and you don't know me. You don't have to listen to anything I say. Ignore is your friend. In 10 years I have never used ignore. I stand by what I say or admit I made a mistake. Always have. I admitted a mistake in this thread even.
You don't even have to respond. You choose to come into my OP and I choose to respond to your post.

[NCTraveler]

25. You went off on a foolish rant demanding appologies.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511864979

Take that link with the good intentions it is being delivered. "I meant it in a self-evaluation context."

[angrychair]

26. Ridiculous

Belaboring of a point already addressed.
I already stated that I made my point poorly.
At the end of the day you don't have to apologize to anyone for anything, I give zero shits, at the same time don't come dragging your ass across the carpet of my OP and not expect a response.

Go in peace

[NCTraveler]

30. "I meant it in a self-evaluation context."

Just trying to help you.

[BootinUp]

2. Where do you get this by her own admission stuff? nt

[Armstead]

7. She said it...Was all over TV

[BootinUp]

9. I would need to understand the context and actual words.

I suspect it would be similar to comments Obama has made and many other democrats have made. And the truth is that her voting record belies the characterization made above.

[Armstead]

10. Here

[BootinUp]

13. So much for context!

Its been snippeted by an expert or a political hack depending on your point of view.

[Armstead]

16. I sent you two, one longer

and if you're really curious about it you can do the rest yourself with that Magic Google

[BootinUp]

19. I consider myself a liberal and I didn't see anything objectionable for a national campaign

by a liberal.

[rhett o rick]

39. Funny how some consider themselves liberal but support Big Money control of

our government. Clinton supports an authoritarian dominated Big Money government. Not liberal.

[BootinUp]

44. politics is not a childs game. nt

[angrychair]

17. Another link

Not hard to find: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/10/politics/hillary-clinton-democrat-progressive/

[BernieforPres2016]

28. Are you actually pretending you haven't seen this clip before?

[BootinUp]

32. The tone of your reply suggests you might like a cookie. nt

[rhett o rick]

45. LOL. When stumped, turn to ridicule. That really says it all about your side.

I don't need your ridicule so bob-bye

[djean111]

40. Hey - just want to tell you that today's meme is to accuse someone you disagree with,

after you have thread-jacked for a while, asking for links and proff and stuff, of being angry or whatever. Today is personal attacks when all else fails day. Evidence? an answer to your post that I am replying to.

[BernieforPres2016]

47. I appreciate you letting me know the latest Clintonista meme

The only response I see to my post is yours.

[djean111]

50. Ah! Good ignore list. Evidently you are looking for a cookie.

[azurnoir]

3. you're asking the wrong question-it isn't who it's what is a Democrat

[blm]

4. I hear you, ac, but am firm in my belief that many of the worst actors posting against

both were GOP operatives masking themselves here as supporters.

We have seen it in every primary so far. This one has definitely been the worst now that there is so much BIG MONEY supporting the operatives.

Don't get so discouraged that you let these operatives win. That is what they are counting on - as they always do.

http://newsone.com/1424285/gop-site-plans-to-infiltrate-progressive-with-trolls/

[emulatorloo]

5. +1

Pot-stirring GOP operatives. Divide and conquer.

[nolawarlock]

20. Yeah, and based on that ...

Every other person on this site has been accused of being a troll lately. God knows I've been called an operative for practically everything but the CIA. I'm sure that's next.

[Triana]

12. The 'free stuff' meme just totally steamed me - coming from "Democrats"

on DU?



This is why I previously commented that it sounded like blood-red RU (Republican Underground). There were/are a LOT of Republican talking points being jabbed at any non-Hillary person.

ACTUAL Democrats would never E V E R support the kind of income inequality and economic instability we have now. Anyone fighting to maintain the current status quo is fighting AGAINST Democratic principle. Period. Full Stop.
These are people who IMO haven't a clue what an actual DEMOCRAT IS.

Deriding taxpayers who simply ask to GET SOMETHING IN RETURN FOR THE TAXES THEY PAY as always wanting "free stuff" is REPUBLICAN. Full Stop.

To say I'm disgusted would be a monumental understatement.

I cannot BELIEVE so-called "Democratic" voters would buy into the RW SHIT they've been flinging in everyone's faces here on a site called "DEMOCRATIC Underground"

Pfft.

[dchill]

36. +1,000,000

[oasis]

37. Bernie has used the word "free" more during his campaign than all

DUers combined. He knows he can't get a GOP congress to pay for a damn thing. Many of Bernie's followers are not politically savvy enough to know he's making empty promises.

[cherokeeprogressive]

51. And how will Hillary's treatment by a Congress dominated by republicans differ? "Savvy"? LOL!

It's a funny argument you make. But that's not what I see as the point of the OP... it's "Democrats" screaming that a Democrat is going to cause their taxes go up in an effort to level the playing field and make lives better by changing some of the focus.

Over the last nine or ten months I've seen enough RW style selfishness to make me feel certain longtime DUers wouldn't have a problem saying "I got mine, and fuck anyone who wants to take a few pennies on the dollar away from me."

I'm an Operations Manager with a nice house and a few toys... but I would happily see my taxes go up, even if they had to go up say 5% across the board if it meant a better life for everyone less fortunate than me.

Ideals make good Democrats, not check marks on registration forms.

[mindwalker_i]

38. Agreed, that was really fucked up

The whole "free stuff" thing is a snarky meme that ignores huge amounts of context and is used to push a position of greed.

[salinsky]

14. Real Democrats don't use the rightwing smear machines playbook ...

... to attack the party's presumptive nominee.

... and, they don't cite rightwing hacks like Judicial Watch and too many others to even list.

[angrychair]

22. Pales in comparison

To the use of neo-Nazi hate sites as sources and copying and pasting their batshit crazy conspiracy theories into their OPs to attack a Democratic candidate on a Democratic website, who is of Jewish heritage.

Using pure right-wing memes about "free stuff" and, in context, ridiculing poor and struggling people.

Yes, to a point, your concerns are valid, as I stated in my OP, it in no way justifies the actions from the your camp.

[salinsky]

29. I never saw the use of neo-Nazi hate sites ...

... not saying it didn't happen, but it must not be widespread by any means.

Contrast that with the deluge of rightwing rags and Republican lines of attack against Hillary.

No comparison.

And, speaking of the "poor and struggling people", wasn't it Bernie himself who saw fit to blame his lack of success on their non-participation?

That's pretty callous.

[angrychair]

43. I gave a link to at least one

I have seen at least one other. I am not on here as much as others.

Interesting that you ignored the "free stuff" memes part. That is very common and easily found. That is still far and away worse than an occasional reference to an unfavorable article.

What some consider "right wing attacks on Clinton" are the truth or at their core true, just from a source you don't like or has a blob of editorializing nonsense mixed in with facts. I agree, some of it is trash or runs fast and lose with the facts, it's disappointing that it happens and I personally have tried hard to avoid those traps, I just wish we all tried to be a little better about sticking to the facts but emotions get the best of people sometimes. That said, it's not an excuse to be as bad as the person you are mad at. The anti Semitic hate sites and "free stuff" memes were way over the top.

[Tarc]

23. 1) No, 2) Yes

[HooptieWagon]

27. The Democratic Party is no longer democratic....

...at least on the leadership end...there is still democrats in the base. But the leadership has veered hard right over the past 30 years, they're only interested in serving Wall St interests, not Main St.

[DamnYankeeInHouston]

33. That's the real question; is the Democratic Party democratic?

[Triana]

35. NOPE. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. I don't vote for labels.

[LibDemAlways]

34. As the party exists today, about to nominate a

pro fracking hawkish friend of Wall Street, no I guess I'm no longer a Democrat. But I didn't leave the party. It left me.

[Orsino]

41. A progressive agenda is more important than Sanders himself.

We already knew enacting such an agenda was going to be tough, even with a President Sanders.

A President Clinton will just make it a little tougher. Progress is ours if enough of us want it badly enough for long enough.

[angrychair]

46. I agree

Which is why I said and always say, it not about Sanders but the ideals and mantle he has taken up as his own, when no one else would. That is what puts him in rare company. If he doesn't get elected, that doesn't change my objectives to get an agenda that is about solutions to very real problems than actually fixes those problems and not a compromise than actually fixes nothing.

[Orsino]

48. If this were a cult of personality...

...we would be backing a candidate with more of a personality!

[djean111]

42. If the Democratic Party is pushing a candidate who is for war and fracking and cluster bombs and

means-testing Social Security and the TPP - amongst other nasty things - then, obviously, I cannot be a Democrat.
No more angst needed, really. Staying in until I can vote for Alan Grayson, end of August, and then I, and my family, are out.

[oldandhappy]

49. Have been wondering about this the last few days.

Not sure I am a Dem. The Dems have been pulled way too far right for me.

[one_voice]

52. Locking..

it is the consensus of the hosts this is disruptive meta. disruptive meta is not allowed.