2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumOn Thom Hartmann today: "Trump is running to the LEFT of Hillary on Trade"
Hillary supporters throwing Thom under the bus in 3...2...1...
Many of us have said this before and been relentless attacked for it. Trade isn't the only issue btw.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)Drumpf will be running to CLinton's left a other issues I suspect -
Welcome to bizzaro world where republican get to the left of DLC DINOS.
Baobab
(4,667 posts)ieoeja
(9,748 posts)When Third-Way Democrats moved the party to the Right, Republicans needed to create distance and obviously began by moving further to the Right. Eventually, they had to go so far Right that they have ended up in the wilderness (nationally).
This was, of course, the DLC's plan. Make Republican Party a permanent minority party by pushing them out of the mainstream.
There is, however, one fairly obvious solution for the Republican Party. Move Left! Now that the Democratic Party has emerged as the mainstream Rightwing party, there is plenty of room for a mainstream Leftwing party. And since, at the fringe the two sides often find common ground, they could use that common ground to make the jump.
The names will remain the same. The definitions will just change.
It has happened before. Before the Cold War the Conservatives were anti-war while Liberals were interventionists (and even the Cold War was started by us). They were still calling the Democratic Party the "War Party" into the '70s. So why shouldn't Conservatives go back to being anti-war and Liberals pro-war? Conservative rank-and-file has always been less pro-business than their politicians. They could easily go populist on that issue.
Republican voters have proven to be extremely susceptible to revisionist history. And we're not talking revising history that happened decades ago. I used to think 1984 was the stupidest book I ever read. But after 9/12's "bet you're glad your guy did not win now" comment was taken at face value, I had to change that opinion.
Less than one year after Bush/Cheney mocked Al Gore for claiming that Jihadi terrorism was the #1 national security threat, we were supposed to be glad that Bush/Cheney were elected now that we had just suffered a major Jihadi terrorist attack? How was that sentence not laughed out of the public arena?
So the Republican Party could pretty much do a 180 on anything and the voters would continue voting for them. Especially since a substantial percentage of their vote is on only one issue: guns.
Childhood friends of mine accused me of turning Liberal when I moved to the city. So we sat down and compared every hot button issue. They ended up admitting that they had done a 180 on every issue except for guns. They justified this with, "we got older and smarter". In reality, they just had to swallow all the other issues so they could vote the way they wanted on guns. They couldn't give a rat's ass about abortion, school religion, cutting taxes, foreign policy, etc.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)makes this point often.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)It's hard to know where she really stands. I for one don't trust a word out of her mouth, especially after she campaigned in 2008 against CFTA and then implemented it in 2008.
She's not credible on anything she says.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)and wont send troops to supervise Muslim neighborhoods and wont send women to back alleys to die.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)A divided congress wouldn't support it. As far as deportation, war and torture goes, Hillary doesn't have a great track record.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)What is relevant is that he will take votes away from Democrats on this issue. And there are plenty of Democrats who care a great deal about Trade. Hillary needs to change her position (again?) on this issue or she's not going to win.
pampango
(24,692 posts)he says he will do. How do you know he is 'to the left' of anyone then? What you are saying is that he is a good talker.
Trump's campaign manager has said that most of his campaign rhetoric is an act designed to appeal to the republican base - not known for their progressive tendencies. It is frustrating when rhetoric designed to resonate with the republican base is absorbed and regurgitated here by liberals.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)I don't give a shit what Trump says about it as he's full of shit.
But that doesn't excuse the fact that the Democratic Establishment of which Clinton will be next figurehead, is selling us and out government down the river.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Bernie will handle trade issues in a way that resembles FDR and Truman much more than Hillary or Donald - whose rhetoric sounds like the polar opposite of FDR.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)"Trust me. I'll do great deals because I am so wonderful."
Baobab
(4,667 posts)corporations globally. That will make wages more competitive on a global scale. Giving the WTO the final say on services, companies wil be frozen at their current level of liberalisation.
The idea is to maximize the profits in the supply chain and eliminate discrimination against corporation, things such as state owned enterprises have to end. Privatization of public services and then globalization of them. Increasing competition and lowering costs.
Economic integration creates exemptions to liberalisation requirements for Least Developed Countries. Only LDCs are allowed to have discriminatory provisions.
This is the best video i have seen to date explaining it-
So, we'll be stuck if just one government commits to these, as we did in 1995, and are almost done with the new one now. So more than anybody else, we're pushing the liberalisation.
yourpaljoey
(2,166 posts)Hill will run even farther to the right than she is now.
Not one republican will vote for her and the Independents will
desert her. She will be slaughtered.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)No, I don't trust Trump, but then I don't trust Hillary either.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)Hillary's. She's had the benefit of the doubt and then broken that trust. Trump has not had a chance to betray the voters yet. I doubt the blue-collar will support a known untrustable vs. an unknown.
imagine2015
(2,054 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)His few stock phrasings on trade do not constitute a measurable agenda, and even if they did, his utter lack of integrity would invalidate it.
He doesn't have a stance.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)On every issue. There's zero coherence to his policy. Calling it left or right is pretty nonsensical.
RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)So does his daughter
http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/04/06/ivanka-trumps-chinese-made-scarves-are-recalled/?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fus&action=click&contentCollection=us&_r=0
So yeah, he's really to the Left of Hillary on Trade
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)While daughter's line of scarves was made in China, Trump's campaign clothing is not: http://www.snopes.com/donald-trump-hat-china/
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)But his suits and ties are made in China.
Donald J. Trump signature men's dress shirts are made in China, Bangladesh or "imported," meaning they were made abroad.
http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/08/news/economy/donald-trump-trade/
RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)The tie was made in China. My husband got it as a discounted item when he worked at Macys
And if you are calling me a liar I think you better not . . .
pampango
(24,692 posts)Donald is not a political reincarnation of FDR on trade. He more closely resembles Herbert Hoover and Calvin Coolidge from the era just before FDR and more recently Pat Buchanan.
Trump wants to 'rip up' NAFTA, the WTO, the Iran nuclear deal, the Paris climate deal and essentially every other international agreement that we have because they all limit our 'national sovereignty' - we agree to limit our behavior in some way in exchange for the other side limiting its behavior in some way. Limiting our behavior limits our national sovereignty in Trump's eyes.
Bernie has said he will renegotiate NAFTA and the WTO, while embracing the Iran and Paris deals. Is Trump 'to the left' of Bernie because he will 'rip 'em up' rather than renegotiating? I don't think so. FDR negotiated many international agreements and organizations including in trade. He did not 'rip 'em up'. Trump is not 'to the left' of FDR, Bernie or Hillary.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)I appreciate that Bernie will renegotiate rather than destroy, but I'm not sure where than falls on the 'left-right' spectrum on trade issues.
We all tend to take the word of people with whom we agree.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)ripping up trade agreements and the WTO would be more 'left' than merely renegotiating them. I agree with Thom that renegotiating these trade agreements and organizations is more 'left' than ripping them up.
It seems that Thom would put "keeping trade agreements as is" on the right wing of the spectrum, 'ripping them up' in the middle of the political spectrum and 'renegotiating them' on the left. That would put someone who wants to 'rip 'em up' (Trump) to the left of someone who wants to keep them 'as is' (Hillary though she may dispute that) while putting Bernie's 'renegotiation' on the far left.
I can accept that though I think the republican base would put 'rip 'em up' on the far right rather than in the middle.Their base always polls as opposed than Democrats to trade agreements and organizations and seems to be thrilled with Trump's 'rip 'em up and raise tariffs' rhetoric. If they realize that Thom thinks that Donald is really moderate on trade, they would not be happy. I am sure they do not view their beloved Donald as more to the left than Hillary on trade.
themaguffin
(3,826 posts)What a shitty right wing thread.
Do you even know what Drumpf would do with trade? Do you have a fucking clue??
People need to grow up. Thom, no doubt understands what Drumpf would do, but not some clueless people around
here.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)The fact is Trump is going to take votes away from Hillary on this issue and that was the point of the conversation on Thom's show.
themaguffin
(3,826 posts)This is silly. Informed people know that Drumpf is full of shit.
He's not to the left of Hillary. He has no policy to do so.
jillan
(39,451 posts)AzDar
(14,023 posts)VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)He's the one who does that show for the Russia Today network, right? Hmmm... I question his judgement and motives.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)You might find that his overall insights are very perceptive....But then probably not.
It's unfortunate that on TV he is on RT. But since the Mainstream Media is owned by monopolistic conservative corporations like Comcast/GE and Time Warner, there isn't much of anywhere else to go.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Response to NurseJackie (Reply #33)
Post removed
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Because Democrats seem to be much more fans of free trade agreements than Republicans, and free trade has a +20 favorability among Dems and -10 among Reps....
http://dailycaller.com/2016/03/18/democrats-understand-econ-101-more-than-republicans-poll-shows/
A Dem
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)whatthehey
(3,660 posts)The results were still as shown - a huge positive among Dems and a sizeable negative among Reps in support for free trade. So how again, exactly, is being anti-trade "to the left" as a campaign stance.
pampango
(24,692 posts)self-inflicted, not caused by trade. If trade ('free' or otherwise) killed unions, they would be dead in Sweden, Canada and Germany. They are not. They are much stronger than in the US. Might that be because they are supported and protected by their governments (as FDR did here) while they are undermined by our laws (think: 'right-to-work') here.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)She has positioned herself so far right, it gives a RW populist demagogue like Trump room to back some policies to her left.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)the war candidate.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)ad #1) camera pans across empty factory, then poor kids playing in a trash-strewn alley. Scene opens with a middle aged lady sitting at her kitchen table; "Hillary Clinton supports the trade agreements that killed this factory, and my husband who committed suicide last year"
ad #2) camera opens on middle aged african-american woman looking at the want ads "I used to work for Disney as a programmer, I haven't worked since 2012 when I trained my replacement, an H1B visa worker who was educated in the same college as me. Clinton supports even more H1B visa holders to come here and take jobs"
ad #3) camera opens on a sullen 8th grader, slouching with his arms crossed at his local school. Interview with his mom follows; "Timmy hasn't been the same since his dad was killed in Iraq - none of our kids have. His older sister ran away last year and we have no idea where she is. My husband was proud to serve the country, but now his kids are without a father.... and for what? I hear the rumor that the next war is with Syria!"
ad #4) Jihadis reading Clinton's emails and laughing. Subtitle "she backed up these to the cloud! Hahah". Voiceover: "Clinton can't be trusted with state secrets."
ad #5) Self-explanatory video of one of her Goldman-Sachs speeches obtained from Ted Cruz' wife, who worked at GS then.
There are few arguments to elect Clinton that make any sense, the least sensible of which is "electability".