2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumCould Hillary actually beat Trump?
This may be a low turn out election, one in which those outside of Party Diehards look and see it as a "lesser of two evils," election. In a lesser of two evils election, the wind is at the back of those with the most loyal and fanatical base. Hillary will likely limp her way to a nomination, but that is a weak showing for someone with 100% institutional backing, plausibly rigging in her favor, and constant favorable coverage, and every possible advantage one could imagine and she still is doing poorly and may go into a contested convention.
Trump will have an outright win, A base that loves him, for whatever reason, and with independents disliking Hillary as well as Trump it is unlikely many will vote.
My prediction is that this will be a low turnout election with most people considering this a lesser of two evils election. Bernie brought a lot of independents to his cause, but with the way he has been treated by Hillary and Hillary supporters most will likely just not vote. Some might go spite and vote Trump, but I scoff at the notion. Some Republicans might switch, but that is a tad like Trump hoping Bernie supporters will switch out of hate for Hillary. Republicans disasitisfied with Trump will more likely not vote then vote Hillary.
There will be simply a GOTV, and for all of Trump being hated he has managed to crush it in the GOP primary and gain phenomenal votes for such a reviled character. The GE will be decided by who can actually rally voters. Do people hate Trump enough to ignore their dislike of Hillary? George W. Bush was hated as well, reviled, but Kerry did not become president. In elections with unlikable candidates the wind is always at the back of the guy whose base is utterly devoted and fanatical. Considering Hillary's weak showing this primary, can she actually muster activists? The GE won't be her favor, it won't be just registered Democrats voting with occasional Independents giving input in some states.
msongs
(67,361 posts)JPnoodleman
(454 posts)Yes, and all Bernie has to do is win a bunch of states by like 90%+ or something.
Hopefully winning is as easy as having the last name Clinton.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)JPnoodleman
(454 posts)If they show up and Hillary has not mustered support.
A lot of her electability depends on people hating Trump enough to vote for her even if they hate her guts.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)against her in the General Election. I prefer her more than any republican. But man, I was behind Bernie, he speaks for the people of America who are not rich and famous. He wants to help young people, but people like Bernie do not get much traction in the US and I keep wondering why! Aren't working class people looking to support someone who has their issues at heart!
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)The Coup in Honduras, War issues, there are a lot of bad aspects of Hillary that may not sway anyone to vote Trump, but the Far Left and the Left can be convinced to not vote.
More over she will have the paradoxical problem of everyone not believing Trump stands a chance thus depressed turnout. How many will not vote simply because "Oh well she will win anyway."
AgerolanAmerican
(1,000 posts)she is so massively vulnerable on that point and he's already telegraphed his intention to hammer it home
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)baggage! Most American Presidents are responsible for the atrocities in South America. Keep Hillary accountable or the emails and Libya. And she will win the nomination, otherwise America is screwed for another 4 years if Cruz or Trump get elected.
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)She had a hand in them, in some way she can be tied to all of it.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)....have their outsider candidate to get them all riled up PLUS that outsider is going against their most hated enemy....Hillary Clinton.
Hillary, sadly, inspires nobody except for her die hards. She's going to get lose the GE. Handedly.
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)But I don't see her having an actual PLAN to rally those voters except them hating Trump enough to like her.
All Trump has to do is make this a vicious shit show nobody votes in.
doc03
(35,299 posts)and independents that lost good paying jobs and their pensions that will vote for Trump. I think we lost the 2016 election tonight.
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)Or at the very least it is unclear whose interests it works for.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,757 posts)JPnoodleman
(454 posts)akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)of Americans who have lost jobs to foreign countries but somehow I think Mrs. Clinton will get elected, Just my opinion.
You have no idea how much I wanted Mr. Sanders to be the nominee. The world would be a better place. Less interference in sovereign countries and he wants to build bridges rather than erecting bridges. If trump wins, good luck with that effing mexico wall he wants to build. Just looking at him on TV is a turn off.
kcjohn1
(751 posts)Trump has proven the critics wrong so far.
Clinton is such bad politician and campaigner. Good chance is behind in the polls to him within a month.
KPN
(15,637 posts)Hillary will shrink in Trump's shadow. We are doomed.
Arizona Roadrunner
(168 posts)I doubt if most voters supporting Sanders care about his ancient history. However, with Clinton it is her current events that will destroy her when Trump goes after her.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)for election?
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)Nobody is helped by blatantly ignoring the facts as they exists.
It might be nice to pretend every voter is a committed clintonite Centrist leans Democrat but this Primary has shown that isn't the case. Hillary will have to contend with people who DON'T post on Dkos or DU at some point.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)up and take a stance. We all know Bernie is not going to get the nomination, which is a huge loss for Americans, but he opened up the door for discussion and I truly hope his values could push Mrs. Clinton to be a real democrat for the people who elected her and not a goldberg nominee!
Now I want to ask you a serious question, among all the Democracts in the US, how come a young guy like Bill O'Malley did not get any traction. His policies were the same as Mr. Sanders. And no other Democrat wanted to run except people were hoping Biden will run! Why did Elizabeth Warren did not run?
Millions of people in the US and you all have only two parties, that sucks!
thesquanderer
(11,972 posts)I'd say because O'Malley was not an inspirational candidate, and Warren did not want to run against Clinton.
Arizona Roadrunner
(168 posts)Clinton has ancient and current baggage. Sanders only has mostly ancient baggage that most people would care less about these days. Sanders in all polls beats Trump more than Clinton. Some argue that Sanders hasn't been "attacked yet" but even if they do attack him, most of the things they can attack him on are ancient history compared to Clinton's background.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)Mrs. Clinton. To be honest with you, if Mr. Sanders got the nomination, the US will be much more progressive, he will bring back jobs to America and would not interfere in bombing sovereign countries. He has what it takes to be a leader.
AgerolanAmerican
(1,000 posts)I don't foresee a low turnout election - people are mad as hell out there.
If we are dumb enough to put forward the candidate of the status quo in this political environment, the pain will be deep and long lasting.
Marr
(20,317 posts)who thought Clinton would win states where she was blindsided by Sanders. The general election is going to be a repeat of the open primary states, where the political establishment is upset by hoards of people coming out just to say 'fuck you'.
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)Many won't vote purely believing she will win no matter what.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)a few disgruntled Americans will be voting for trump. Trump is bad news for America!
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)Which is what I am talking about. people just don't vote in disgust.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)Only a few million people will vote for trump, Hilary has the votes of more people including Latinos and African Americans, they are huge in the US. They supported Bill Clinton and they will support Mrs. Clinton.
What you want to bet, a virtual coffee?
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)How many white people are there in the US?
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)Unfortunately, the whiter they are, they will not vote for Mrs. Clinton. They see her as a sell out and please,
do not go there. It boggles my mind when people think race is what a President get's elected. So far, most Americans see Mrs. Clinton as a viable nominee. Bernie did not stand a chance even though his platform was more viable! He was too socialist for most Americans, so it has nothing to do with race,
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)Each stabbing at each other via their respective political parties?
It still seems like people are making this out to be a ethnic clash election, black people versus white people specifically.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)White people aren't a monolith and unless they vote as one there aren't enough to elect Drumpf.
StayFrosty
(237 posts)Thats why she's the nominee with the most votes out of anyone running on both sides
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)in politics and foreign policy than that trump guy!
StayFrosty
(237 posts)Did you happen to read the rest of my post?
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)She's unelectable
Thats why she's the nominee with the most votes out of anyone running on both sides.
Where did I misunderstand you?
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)with one post. Welcome to DU and am sure you have lots to contribute to the site.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)How anyone can deny that she'll be an overwhelming favorite is dumbfounding.
Trump's impending nomination says more about the state of the Republican Party than anything else.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Carry on.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)Ron Green
(9,822 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)The demographics are impossibly bad for Trump, whose nomination win was predicated on moves that guarantee 30% or more of the population will be 90% against him. Trump isn't going to make up for that by winning 70+ percent of the white vote, even given low turnout, since outside his Republican Lumpen biotope most people can see he's a fucking con-man who got where he is by direct appeals to fascism. He will try to squirm out of some of the things he's said but people aren't going to forget the Wall and "the rapists and drug-dealers" and no admission for Muslims and all the misogynist shit, which the Clinton campaign will of course highlight.
Though he will make a contest of it by running as Bernie Reloaded in the general, attacking Clinton on Iraq and probably even coming out for universal health care and, who knows, announcing that he regrets the wall nonsense and hopes all peoples can unite in peace and love, blah blah blah. (Why the fuck not? It's not like he believes any of his current bullshit and as he's underlined, he can shoot a guy on Fifth Avenue - or even call for racial harmony! - and his base of WWE-Reality TV rubes and hedge fund assholes will still buy it.)
In the end the Chirac vs. Le Pen (or David Duke in Louisiana) logic of "vote for the crook, not the fascist" will apply.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)as I thought he could really bring change to America to a lot of issues that affected poor and working class people. But the current system favour money people and Mrs. Clinton will be the nominee. I prefer her over any asshole republican especially cruz, I could stomach Kasich, at least he is moderate. But cruz, what an effing retard!
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)As a fascist in the lizard-skin of the mainstream politician, he affects as a "moderate" although his domestic policies are just as racist and anti-labor as Trump's, and on the question of how to approach the rest of the world -- you know, war and peace, whether or not to have an insane nuclear confrontation with Russia and Iran, etc. etc. -- he's obviously far worse than Trump!
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)conservative debates, he came across differently that is why I thought he was different from Rubio, Cruz and Trump. And then I thought he should have gained some ground being a moderate republican. Wow, you live and learn.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Also the way he was talking the crazy war shit during the debates, in a manner that incredibly made Trump looked like the moderate.
Funny thing is he ran the ominous Trump=Hitler ad, so he knows what game to play.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)his ass got tanked in the primaries.
Correct me if am wrong, is he now supporting trump or is it only Christie?
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)I see no reason if he has the minimal budget for Kasich not to stick as the last hope for the establishment to gather anti-Trump delegates with the ones pledged to the other non-Trumps. Cruz had a pretty good haul. It's imaginable Kasich can win California. If Trump doesn't have a majority, the convention will move to block him and bring in a Ryan, Romney, or Whoever. All looking very unlikely now however.
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)May win her the day or simply depress turnout.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)of the same old bull shit, I just hope they vote against trump. The writing is on the wall, Hillary is going to be your next President. Better her than effing trump!
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)There was an historic gubernatorial election in Louisiana between the crook and the fascist in 1991 and the crook one 61-38.
There's your analog.
drray23
(7,619 posts)It will be a blowout. Trump has alienated so many groups he does not stand a chance. There are only so many angry racist misogynist people for his base. In comparison Hillary will have all the dems, plus the disaffected republicans and the overwhelming majority of latinos and african americans. This alone already puts her well ahead in florida. If she wins all the solid dem states and florida thats already 271. She is going to win much more than that.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)for Hillary winning the nomination.
We see how well that prediction has turned out.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)This primary has shown that a substantial number of Democrats do not want to vote for Hillary Clinton. DEMOCRATS.
Raise your hand if you think she will scoop up enough Republican and Independent votes to offset the fact that a sizable portion of what is supposed to be her base, Democrats, will only reluctantly vote for her if they do that much.
I've heard enough Hillary Clinton voters harp on the fact that if Democrats don't vote for her, then we can expect a President Donald Trump (assuming she gets the nomination).
Allow me to take this opportunity to turn that right around. Who as the most to lose in a Trump presidency? We will all lose to one degree or another, but if you really want some dire warnings, think about whether or not you can withstand a Trump Presidency.
If she gets the nomination, exactly one second afterwards it will be Clinton Foundation, Hillary Victory fund, and donations for arms deals 24/7. Hell, she can barely do an interview without saying something questionable, and in her recent past (and present), she has made some breathtakingly unwise remarks.
In the GE, she is going to have to talk to people that are ambivalent about her campaign, and people that outright oppose it.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)Gawd, I hoped that Bernie could get more support, he is whom the world needs as a leader. Sadly, the world do not like people who tell the truth!
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Who has the most to lose with a Trump presidency? As I said, all of us will be negatively impacted, but who has the most to lose?
She is going to have to stand up and talk to real people in the GE, some of which will be ambivalent or even hostile. So far in the primary, she hasn't looked very good in that department.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)politics in the US. I am in Canada. It seems so wrong right now with the candidates running and to be honest with you, I never thought Mrs. Clinton would try again for the Presidency. Perhaps she has learnt from people in India that in a crab of barrels, the one who gets to the top succeeds. Good for her, she will succeed. However, I cannot imagine a person like Bernie who wants to fight for American values is losing to her. It boggles my mind.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)except we've had so many anomalies in this primary that it kind of difficult to say if she really "won" all the races she "won" in.
Running out of ballots? Seriously? They know exactly how many people can vote in their precincts because they have a damn list of them. Polling places constricted to 60 in a county with 4+ million voters? People having their registration flipped so they couldn't vote? At least one instance in a county where Bernie wasn't even on the ballot? Bill Clinton electioneering outside of 2 polling places in Massachusetts with a bullhorn and preventing people from being able to go inside to vote due to a media circus and Secret Service detail?
This primary has been crooked as a barrel of snakes. Hell, I've probably forgotten a few of the nonsensical things that have gone on already, and all the states haven't even voted in the primary. I wonder what on God's green earth is going to happen in the General Election.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)voting could be manipulated. There is an issue with that and it is very prevalent in minority communities as the status quo knows that minorities are more inclined to vote Democrat. It is so unbelievable that the richest country on earth manipulate voting rights! It is sickening that people cannot exercise their civic rights!
Aerows
(39,961 posts)is a drop in the bucket compared to the other voter suppression and outright election fraud tactics that have taken place all over the country thus far, and as I said, there are still plenty of states to go.
Yes, I actually said that Florida wasn't as bad as several other states. I voted for Al Gore in 2000 in Florida, too. We wore stickers that said "I voted - I think"
Go back and read the laundry list of other machinations that have gone on. When Florida is "not that bad comparatively", you may grasp the magnitude of voter suppression and election fraud we are contending with.
Honestly. Running out of ballots? How stupid do they think the American public is? They know exactly how many people will be voting in their precinct, so "we didn't know how many ballots we would need" as an excuse is dumber than a bag of hair.
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)does not necessarily translate into people voting for her.
Many people were better than George W. Bush, he still won.
Firebrand Gary
(5,044 posts)Yet when democrats get to vote in our own primaries, she wins!
Aerows
(39,961 posts)that a good sized chunk of Democrats don't want to vote for her. She sure isn't going to make those votes up with Republicans and I sincerely doubt she will make it up with independents, if you are implying that the only reason she lost in the open primary states is due to independents.
Can you explain why that is so funny?
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)2008 was even closer. I'm not sure why people think Clinton's lack of complete dominance of Sanders is some indication that she'll be the underdog against Trump. Do people really think that little of Sanders?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and the fact that she was supposed to be a shoo-in as the nominee in 2016 and plummeted the second she got a challenger is something to think about.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)And Clinton essentially wrapped up the 2016 nomination back in mid-March.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)is essentially a food product.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)By mid-March, there were undeniable patterns. Patterns that won't magically get flipped upside down. Patterns that indicated Clinton will win a clear majority of pledged delegates. Most notably, her doing better in diverse, delegate-rich states.
Being down by ~300 pledged delegates even just halfway through the campaign is much more substantial than some seem to realize, especially when you consider demographic realities and the fact of proportional allocation.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)make her sweat but she knows that this time she is coronated. Cant you see it on her face! Trump cannot win over her and regardless of lesser evils, she will be better than trump. I am sure of that!
I prefer a Democrat than a rethuglican in the White House. And this time around, if Hilary wins, the Senate and the House will have more Democrats elected. Bernie has started a movement and Hilary will have to move more to liberal politics, that is how I think it will be, keeping fingers crossed!
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)the Super Delegates and Wall Street want Mr. Sanders to be the nominee? Hillary is their girl, she is the establishment and money talks. Those folks and Mrs. Clinton do not give a rats ass about poor people and as for children with student loans, they could not care less. It is American Greed on another level, fleece the working class.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)"Hillary Clinton will be the nominee" basket, and I certainly wouldn't put too many in the "Hillary Clinton will handily beat Donald Trump."
Not with the amount of voter suppression and election fraud that has taken place in the primary. It's likely dress rehearsal for November, and historically, that has NEVER favored Democrats - it strongly favors Republicans.
That's before you even come to the point of who will vote for Hillary Clinton in the GE.
Cobalt Violet
(9,905 posts)Establishment need not apply! I think it's clear. She won't win. She is about more of the same as one can get.
Kablooie
(18,612 posts)I'm sure he will shift his message to something that will sway a lot of middle road voters. People that hate him now will hear things they like and will change their mind.
Thus election may be a real nail biter and we could end up with Trump as leader of the free world at the end.
MFM008
(19,803 posts)Even 1 republican talking head said Trump will lose at least 30 states.
Demsrule86
(68,469 posts)Hillary can beat Trump.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)fred v
(271 posts)yourpaljoey
(2,166 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)Prof. Sabato directs the Center for Politics Crystal Ball website, a leader in accurately predicting elections since its inception. In 2004, the Crystal Ball notched a 99 percent accuracy rate in predicting all races for House, Senate, Governor and each states Electoral College outcome. In 2006, the Pew Research Center and the Pew Charitable Trusts Project for Excellence in Journalism recognized the Crystal Ball as the leader in the field of political predictors, noting that the site came closer than any other of the top ten potential predictors this cycle.
In 2008, the Crystal Ball came within one electoral vote of the exact tally in the Electoral College, while also correctly picking the result of every single gubernatorial and Senate race across the country. In 2010, the Crystal Ball was the first to forecast a solid Republican takeover of the House. While others were predicting a Romney victory in 2012, the Crystal Ball forecast a substantial Obama margin in the Electoral College, and ultimately missed just two states. The Crystal Ball had a combined 97% accuracy rate in forecasting the Electoral College, Senate, House and gubernatorial contests.
Earlier this year, the Crystal Ball won a Beast Best award from The Daily Beast as one of the top political sites on the web.
In 2013 Prof. Sabato won an Emmy award for the television documentary Out of Order, which he produced to highlight the dysfunctional U.S. Senate. In 2014, Prof. Sabato won a second Emmy award for the PBS documentary The Kennedy Half-Century, which covers the life, assassination, and lasting legacy of President John F. Kennedy.
In October 2013, Prof. Sabato and the Center for Politics unveiled the Kennedy Half Century project. The project consisted of a New York Times bestselling book, The Kennedy Half-Century PBS documentary, a Massive Open Online Course (MOOC) available on Coursera and iTunes U, an app with the complete recordings and transcripts from Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63, and a website (www.thekennedyhalfcentury.com).
Prof. Sabato is also very active on social media. His Twitter feed (@LarrySabato) was named by Time Magazine as one of the 140 best Twitter feeds of 2014.
http://www.centerforpolitics.org/staff_sabato.html
And if that doesn't convince you:
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/us-politics/us-presidential-election-2016/winner
And if that and that doesn't convince you:
I should note that the polls have been telling us this information for some time. In the first half of March, Clinton led Trump by a median of 9 percentage points. Using an SD of 4.5 percentage points, her win probability would come out as 93%. So todays estimate has been knowable for several months.
http://election.princeton.edu/2016/05/01/what-do-head-to-head-general-election-polls-tell-us-about-november/#more-15484
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Donald Trump is going to lose among Hispanics by fifty points, lose among Asians by fifty points, and lose among African Americans by eighty points. Can he really get close to seventy percent of the white vote which is what he will needs?