If Hillary can't beat Bernie, how can she beat Trump?

[left-of-center2012]

Last edited Wed May 4, 2016, 02:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Clinton lost to Sanders in Indiana, the 'heartland' of America.
Trump will be one hundred times harder and more brutal against Clinton in the general election.
In comparison, Sanders has been a pussy cat.

I'm just saying, it ain't going to be the cakewalk some folks think.

[Betty Karlson]

1. She can't.

But Debbie doesn't want to hear of it. As chair, it is her responsability t ensure crushing defeats in November.

[silvershadow]

6. I see they juried you into submission too. :/

[Betty Karlson]

7. How am I submitting?

Please tell me how to clean up my act.

[silvershadow]

8. I have not a clue. I am back now from jail, so it's all good here. :) nt

[Betty Karlson]

57. Oh you mean those stalker awards I collected in March?

Yes, camp Weathervane was attempting a cull at the time. Badge of honor and so on. But the five-bans-you're-out rule was abolished before their stalking could have any effect on my posting.

Glad to have you back.

[Yurovsky]

63. They really don't tolerate alternative POVs....

especially anything from the Left. If they want your opinion they'll give it to you...

[silvershadow]

79. In other words, reality. nt

[brush]

77. Are you guys forgetting that Hillary is beating Sanders pretty badly?

Indiana won't be in the Democratic column in November and unfortunately for Bernie supporters, he won't be a factor in November.

And btw, Trump will lose spectacularly. The London bookies already have Hillary at 8 to 1, and you go broke real quick going against professional handicappers.

Sensible progressive whites who don't want Trump appointing the next 3 SCOTUS justices, Latino Americans, African Americans, women, gays, Asian Americans, Native Americans, and sensible, left-leaning and moderate independents — collectively these demographic segments are who mostly voted for and elected President Obama twice, and will also elect Clinton to the presidency.

Notice I included "sensible left-leaning and moderate independents who don't want Trump appointing the next 3 SCOTUS justices in the coalition.

[Betty Karlson]

82. Are you guys forgetting that her dismal polling with independents will create disaster in the GE?

[fun n serious]

2. She did not campaign in Indiana

Sanders spent near 2 million, aggressively campaigned. She has already beat Bernie. If he gets 100% of all remaining delegates he still falls behind.

[NanceGreggs]

3. She's already beat him. n/t

[MrMickeysMom]

15. That remains to be seen...

Which is a way of saying, "I wish he'd just stop".

Why should his campaign stop? He's already broken records of how the working class can rise to the corporate class in terms of being present to HEAR a candidate's words in public, then getting MILLIONS to join the Democratic party without the help of legalized money laundering that should have gone to down-ticket Democrats, but returned to HRC's coffer.

So many have left our party since the 70's. Why aren't you as angry about that as what has been done to the morphed Democratic Party platitudes? That path just doesn't work anymore and instead of trying to understand it, as you could, you curse against anyone showing you that you mis-judged AS WE ALL DID, at least for some time since the 1970's.

We've misjudged about a LOT of things. You really think that Hillary has got this thing in the bag? Well, that remains to be seen, but you have to wake up to look at what is happening in the process and HOW it got that way.

[Arneoker]

18. Bernie's campaign has been quite impressive, one has to give you that

But Hillary is still beating him. BTW, I for one would not presume to ask him to drop out.

Lot's of things have happened since the 70's. The McGovern debacle. The Reagan triumph (which somehow didn't spur on the revolution). Bill Clinton's success in bringing the Democrats back to the White House.

Should Hillary simply follow the foot steps of Bill? I would say no, although she needs to keep in mind the critical job of winning over the center. But in many ways I would say that the "Third Way" model is exhausted, and went too far, and corrections need to be made. I think that she is showing that she gets that, even Bill seems to.

[Armstead]

21. Thank you for a reasonable response

[Buzz Clik]

40. Explain how Bernie is going to win. Curious minds....

[Stuckinthebush]

66. You have to use Bernie Math

It's complicated but in all scenarios he wins.

[Buzz Clik]

68. The new one is excellent: Cruz and Kasich bowing out is good for Bernie

Trump voters know that Bernie would be an easier target, so they'll cross over and vote for the weaker candidate.

(The math isn't lacking in that scenario, but it must be depressing to say that out loud.)

[JoePhilly]

46. + 1

[MFM008]

4. she will beat him in a landslide

[leftynyc]

5. If Bernie can't beat Hillary

How's he going to beat Trump? Meanwhile she's STILL ahead in pledged delegates (he barely made a dent last night) and popular vote. The general is going to be close as we are a closely divided nation. All this means is he's going to continue to hurt our presumptive nominee. I said the same thing about Hillary when she waited to suspend her campaign in 2008.

[mythology]

11. Actually he didn't even make a dent

Sanders needed over 60% of the delegates to make a dent. Instead based on the delegates he picked up, he lost ground compared to the number of delegates that are no longer available.

[leftynyc]

44. He only got 5 more delegates

than she did. But you're right - considering all the numbers and what he needed to pull ahead, he's simply further behind.

[auntpurl]

12. He's worse off now than he was before

in terms of the percentage of delegates he needs to win.

[bettyellen]

9. In that red state? She won where it matters most. Cakewalk? It is done.

[Stuckinthebush]

67. Indeed

She didn't even campaign there and he still couldn't put a dent in her lead.

[GreydeeThos]

10. It is Bernie who is being beaten

Hillary is ahead by 290 pledged delegates. She only needs 322 more to have one more pledge delegate than Bernie can possibly win. When Hillary hits 2026 pledged delegates, none of her Super Delegates will switch sides and she will win the nomination on the first ballot.

As for Trump, polls show she has never been in a position where he could realistically win.

[annavictorious]

13. She has beaten Sanders

he and Jane won't let go. It will be interesting to see if any of Sanders surrogates start showing up this week or if there is a bump in fund raising.

As for Sanders being a pussy cat, he's run a very negative campaign.

[pinebox]

25. In a closed atmosphere.

Open primaries better reflect a general and we see who wins those when everyone gets to vote

[pinebox]

33. My premise is exactly correct

In open primaries, Bernie does better and we saw that again last evening with Bernie winning Indiana.

You can try to spin it all you want but it doesn't change the fact that when America gets to vote and it isn't just some little bubble, Bernie smokes Hillary like a bong on a Boulder morning.

[pinebox]

37. You're doing fuzzy math

Again, in open primaries where America gets to vote and not just Dems in an exclusive little Democratic version of Sam's Club, Bernie wins.

It's a well established fact? Surely you can link to something which says that.

Sour grapes? We won last night.

See what happens when people get to vote? Progressives wins!

[Darb]

47. You mean where the teabaggers can sandbag Hillary by

voting for Bernie? Yeah, I got it. He only wins in those primaries and in caucuses. Pretty self explanatory really. He only garners a minority of Democrats.

[onenote]

92. 14 open primaries. Clinton has won ten

[JoePhilly]

49. Can you post a list of the open primaries and who won each?

I don't think it will look like you think it looks.

[hack89]

55. Except she has won more open primaries then he has. Nt

[all american girl]

86. Except that she's won more open primaries than he has. I'm sorry, but you are in the bubble.

[pinebox]

89. Including AZ and NY in this wons are you?

You're in the bubble.

You're also in the bubble if you think most of America like Hillary, sees her as trustworthy and the FBI investigation is a joke and basically a RW meme.

[all american girl]

90. Well, I thought the DNC and Hillary were suing AZ.

I thought there was an investigation going on in NY...The fact is she still won those states, and as far as NY, she won handily. And if you would like to exclude them, she still won more open primaries.

Again, she has more votes and delegates...that's just a fact. I'm going to assume with those facts, that more than enough people like her enough to go out and vote. So far, she has more votes than anyone.

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. Bernie is a far better person than Trump. Thus, it's far harder to beat him

This is fairly simple. Reasonable people can look at Bernie and say "he's the best candidate". You can't do that with Trump and still be called 'reasonable'.

So it's a question of how much of the American electorate do you think are idiots who could vote for Trump.

[brooklynite]

17. I will agree with you...

Cltinon probably won't beat Trump in Indiana.

[baldguy]

19. She is beating Sanders.

[Demsrule86]

20. She beat Bernie like a drum

which is why she has way more pledged delegates than Bernie. When he talks delegate numbers, he subtracts her supers but keeps his-disingenuous...he is in a delegate hole, and he can't climb out. Hillary beat Obama in Indiana. And he won the general. Hillary won Bernie lost...time to move on to the general and beat Trump. Bernie only hurts the American people at this point by staying in and his own legacy: tarnished though it may be at this point. Trump is dangerous, unqualified and must be defeated by people of good will. I would call very few even Republican candidates evil, but Trump is evil and has threatened to use nuclear weapons. Bernie still crying about how unfair life is and the Democratic, Party in general, is a gift to Trump. if Bernie is sincere about his revolution, he won't want that.

[AirmensMom]

31. Before you call Bernie's legacy tarnished,

Remember who is being investigated by the FBI. Hillary attracts scandal like shit attracts flies. If anyone has a tarnished legacy, it's the Clintons.

[Demsrule86]

71. It is tarnished

It is just a matter of how much he wants to continue tarnishing it...spiteful behavior on his part...risks President Trump. Hillary Clinton is being attacked by the right wing and Bernie/Bernie supporters using lies so...they are tarnishing themselves with such lies, and Bernie is worse than the Republicans because he knows better.

[AirmensMom]

74. Bernie has treated her with kid gloves

compared to what Trump will do to her. Trump didn't need any help from Bernie. His anti-Hillary ads can write themselves. Hillary has been on the wrong side of many issues. That is not a right wing lie. And her "no, we can't!" stance is anything but inspiring. If she loses to Trump, she has no one to blame but herself. This is the second time she has entered the race as "the anointed one" and the second time she has proven what a weak candidate she is. Yes, she's ahead and will likely be the nominee this time. But Bernie shouldn't have been able to get this close.

[all american girl]

87. If anointed one means working her ass off to get votes, yes.

If thinking anointed one means getting less votes, less delegates and thinking you should still win, then you are thinking about Bernie. She's obliviously more inspiring than you give her credit...again, votes. (and before you say it, she has won more open primaries than he has)

[Recursion]

22. Err... she is beating him, pretty soundly

By a bigger margin than Obama ever had over her.

[pinebox]

23. Trump would smoke Hillary in a General Election

and it wouldn't even be funny.

Hillary supporters may be upset with me saying that but 40 years of crap and hatred are about to come out should she be the nominee. You can expect every damn thing from Bill's past transgressions to see the light of day all over again and all the lying that has taken place. Indy support? Hillary has none at all.

If we don't have Bernie as our nominee, it will be a landslide.
Elections are about change, there is no change with Hillary.

[gollygee]

24. Either one of the would beat Trump

Last edited Wed May 4, 2016, 09:55 AM - Edit history (1)

He won't be hard to beat.

And Indiana often doesn't go the way of the general election. It isn't that representative of the country as far as voting goes.

I thought Sanders would do well there. There's a big anti-establishment thing going on in Indiana. I suspect Trump will win Indiana in the General, but he won't win the whole country.

[Adrahil]

26. Ummm... she IS beating Bernie. Rather badly.

So if Bernie can't beat Hillary, what does that say about HIM?

[anamnua]

27. Bernie is a credible opponent. Trump is not. NT.

[JaneyVee]

28. Hillary is winning by a landslide.

[Nye Bevan]

29. If she can beat Trump by many votes as she is beating Bernie by, she should be fine (nt)

[Vinca]

32. And Bernie hasn't said a peep about the real Hillary negatives.

Trump won't be as genial. This is going to be brutal and is not a slam dunk no matter what they try to tell you.

[leftynyc]

48. And NOBODY has gone after

Bernie. Nobody has laid a glove on him in negative advertising. Either Hillary or Bernie would be in the fight of their lives. I frankly think either one would beat donnie but it wont be a blowout.

[Vinca]

61. So why didn't Hillary go after Bernie? Will she go after Trump?

I've never been so worried about an election. Hillary, IMO, is one of the weakest candidates Democrats have ever run. It's a shame the field was cleared for her.

[all american girl]

88. OK, you go with that.

[DrDan]

34. 1,682 - 1,361 - seems like she is doing just fine

[Codeine]

36. Nobody talked this way about Obama, and his primary win was FAR narrower

than the pasting we've seen with Clinton over Sanders.

I wonder why that is. . .?

[OilemFirchen]

43. Not true.

A lot of people spoke this way about Obama.

Back then, we called them Republicans.

[Codeine]

45. I stand humbly corrected.

[NorthCarolina]

38. How many national polls showing Trump Beating Clinton does one need to see before

they say to themselves "hmmm...I think I get it now, Trump will beat Clinton".

[leftynyc]

50. Considering there is only ONE

poll showing that and it's from right wing sewer rasmussen, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

[Buzz Clik]

39. Good point, but she's kicking Bernie's butt.

I don't believe that winning every state is a requirement in the primary or in the general. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[thesquanderer]

41. Lots of reasons it's different.

The question "If Hillary can't beat Bernie, how can she beat Trump?" is kind of nonsensical because one has nothing to do with the other. It's a different set of candidates, and it's a different voter pool. Also, the electoral college means the mechanics and strategy is entirely different, as the winner is determined by a series of winner-take-all individual state contests. That said, I agree with you that it will not be cakewalk.

[Takket]

42. she can't beat Bernie? Have you looked at the current delegate count?

[stillwaiting]

51. We vote on easily hackable machines.

Either one can "win" even if they don't.

A lot more people need to come to terms with this.

[Tarc]

52. Can you tell me which number is greater? 1,700 or 1,410?

I'll wait.

[Thinkingabout]

53. She only needs 168 more delegates, there are 165 super delegates, she will get most of those.

Sanders needs 101% of pledged delegates, she is winning, Sanders isn't so the proper statement is if Sanders can't beat Hillary, can he beat Trump?

[beaglelover]

54. Indiana is a fucking flyover state! It means nothing to this primary season in the big scheme of

things. Hillary has this thing all wrapped up with a big bow. The Bernouts just can't grasp reality, but they will soon enough!! LOL!!!!

[CrowCityDem]

56. Tell me again what Bernie is winning, other than nothing?

[MineralMan]

58. Uhh...

Clinton, Hillary Diane Rodham 12,558,569 56.20%
Sanders, Bernard "Bernie" 9,442,707 42.26%

Today's update on Hillary's lead in the primary race.

[NWCorona]

65. I hope you understand that those numbers are meaningless in the general

When independents will be deciding the election. We can't praise a closed primary system then expect the same results in an open general.

[fun n serious]

85. Obama did NOT have the support of INDIES and still won.

She has this. She has a bigger voting block. Minorities, women.

[EndElectoral]

59. She can't.

[ViseGrip]

60. She can't. Repubs will vacate Trump for Sanders, but never for Hillary.

That's why polling just dem voters is stupid.

So far, outside of my political groups, like neighbors I don't talk to about politics, did ask me for Bernie signs. Now they say, if it's Hillary, I'm sorry, I'll have to vote for Trump. THESE ARE DEMOCRATS IN MY PRECINCT!. One of the top 11 swing precincts in my county. How do you ignore that?

[fun n serious]

84. I see the opposite happening and its actually GOP ESTABLISHMENT going on news stations

saying I'm with her....

[Bucky]

62. "more viscous"

Tru dat!

[workinclasszero]

64. She beat his ass all over the country

and won the nomination.

[asuhornets]

69. Bernie Sanders can not beat Hillary..Democrats voted for her by almost 3million votes..n/t

[brooklynite]

70. If Obama can't beat Clinton, how can he beat McCain

Obama lost to Clinton in Indiana, the 'heartland' of America.

[KingFlorez]

72. She has already beaten him

The more logical question is if Sanders can't win the primary, how can he possibly win the general election?

[Renew Deal]

73. She has beaten him

He's just hanging around for no apparent reason. David Plouffe aptly calls his campaign a fraud.

[scepticism]

75. Sanders already lost

It appears Clinton needs only ~15% of the remaining delegates available to have a majority.

Sanders has done a great job raising money but he is throwing it right into the toilet at this point.

He could win (maybe will) several more states in a row here and it will make no difference.

Clinton could ignore him for the rest of the race and easily pick up what she needs to secure the nomination.

Time to say goodbye to Sanders and pivot to the general election...

[kevinmc]

76. She is beating him and will also beat Trump.

Relax, quit watching RW News.

[LaydeeBug]

78. She *is* beating Bernie. He won't be able to catch up. nt

[anotherproletariat]

80. Amazing how many Berners don't get how the process works

For your education...

Primary elections are for political parties to decide on a candidate. In those elections, like-minded people vote for a particular party. This means that they are generally loyal to the party, and will vote for anyone nominated in that party over the opposing party candidate. Factions are often split in a primary election, but those differences are minor compared to the differences between major parties.

For instance, Hillary won the popular vote in the 2008 primary race over Obama, but because he had more delegates, he won the nomination and Democrats came together to vote for him. His primary win was far less impressive than Hillary's is turning out to be. So, you could say that he 'barely won'. But obviously, what happened in that primary was not important in the general.

In this case, the problem is that Sanders is polarizing his supporters in such a way that it could be harmful in the general. The reason so many people want him to get out, is that the deprograming will take longer in people who have bought so deeply into the Sanders narrative. A narrative of seemingly good ideas, without any plans - or any hope for plans - of implementation. A narrative that labeled Hillary a liar and a criminal, in spite of facts to the contrary.

The reason Hillary people are no longer worried about offending the Berners is that we have realized that any of them who are true liberals will eventually vote for her, and those that are not probably never would have.

[doc03]

81. Looks to me she has beat Bernie in votes and delegates.

[fun n serious]

83. She can't hit Sanders hard.

She has to go soft.. or she could alienate his supporters. Hillary knows how to hit hard! Real hard! But she is winning, has been winning for weeks so why risk alienating more of his support that she will need?

[PragmaticLiberal]

91. "If Hillary can't beat Bernie, how can she beat Trump?"

Personally, I think Bernie is more formidable candidate than Trump.

[JI7]

93. same way Obama beat Clinton in 2008