Hillary has a problem & it's not Bernie's fault. If she cannot turn this around

[jillan]

these are the areas that she is vulnerable & areas where Trump does well....

[Betty Karlson]

1. K&R for truth!!!!

[CrowCityDem]

2. White men do not win elections. Ask Presidents McCain and Romney.

[Firebrand Gary]

10. +1

[Yurovsky]

13. I'm not one, but I realize it's still a huge chunk of votes...

and you damn well better be competitive in that demographic. Just writing them off is a sure ticket to Loserville (where I believe Hillary is considering the purchase of yet another mansion...).

[CrowCityDem]

23. Women are the majority of both people and voters. Win them, you win the election.

[unc70]

35. Win ALL of them

Otherwise, you need to do well with other demographics.

[Yurovsky]

43. Exactly - you don't need to win all of them, but you can't get crushed in larger ones...

and expect to win. As the GOP has drifted slowly downward among Latino voters, their fortunes have sunk. Sure it's a minority, but it's a large minority, and getting 20% rather than 40% could tip the election in November.

Some folks just can't be bothered with the math...

[AgingAmerican]

143. Republican women won't be voting for Hillary

They have themselves convinced that she is a lesbian witch. They really are that stupid.

[jehop61]

31. You got that email going around

about all the mansions "she lived in". Ha you fell for it.....most were summer vacations the Clintons rented while Bill was President. Security and all that. The Clintons own two homes, one in NY one in DC. Those are their only ones they ever owned.

[Armstead]

54. My heart bleeds -- Only Two million dollar plus homes?

And in the summer they have to slum it with $50,000 per week rentals

http://time.com/money/4002916/hillary-clinton-vacation-rental/

The weekly rental fee falls just below the U.S. median household income.

Hillary Clinton released a new ad this morning reminding voters of her middle-class background. But there’s nothing middle-class about the way she vacations.

According to the Daily Mail, Clinton will spend her upcoming break from the campaign trail at a $50,000-per-week beachfront rental in the Hamptons along with Bill Clinton, Chelsea Clinton, her son-in-law Marc Mezvinsky, and her new granddaughter, Charlotte. The four-bedroom Amagansett mansion, which Clinton is renting for the second consecutive year from Republican donor Andre Nasser and his wife Lois, features a 50 ft pool and a private beach. The two week rental will cost the Clintons nearly twice the U.S.’ median household income ($51,939, as of September 2014).

[pangaia]

83. They are all peas in a pod.

They all get together and divvy up the votes..

"OK, how shall we do this? Tell you what, I'll take the LGBT crowd, you take the right wing Christians. "

"Deal. What about I go after the pot smokers, you take the Southern black crowd."

"Sure, works for me. I'll give you the Italians and Latinos and Latinas,, and you give me the truck drivers and bubbahs..."

"I'll need the college educated white women."

"In that case I'll take the 25 to 47 year old men over 195 pounds.........."

And on and on it goes....
Of course they all get the Wall Streeters and corporate king makers.
And the result is all but the latter are fucked.

Notice, nobody wants the 72 year old Hungarians. There just are not enough of us.

[Armstead]

108. You need to expand the Hungarian demographic

[pangaia]

110. LOL !!!!

[beltanefauve]

111. "What about Poland?"

[NewImproved Deal]

152. The Clintons are Oligarchs--like their pal...

[link:?h=358&w=300|

[Yurovsky]

56. Yeah, she's a regular "woman of the people"...

the sad part is she wouldn't piss on her loyal supporters if they were on fire. She's an elitist who needed a few hundred million in a slush fund so that she and her posse would never have to fly commercial again, and she could dole out cushy 6-figure jobs to her cronies like a Mafia boss.

Please explain how book deals that far exceeded her post-2000 legal fees and $600k+ in annual pensions for her & Bill left them flat broke... And if she were flat broke, couldn't she have hit Cheslea up for a few bucks, seeing as how she was getting rich along with her husband in the hedge-fund business?

Yes, Hillary Rodham Clinton, the poor little rich girl. Justs tugs at my heart strings....

[bvf]

103. Only *two* homes? Poor things! n/t

[Matt_R]

148. Two? No wonder millions say Poor Hillary.

Some of us can only afford a mortgage on one. Other can only afford to rent.

[Armstead]

45. That's a dumb statement.

White males are about 35 percent of the population.

Ate you saying that white women, AA's, Latinos and all variations of POC would never vote for a white male?

Are you saying that the growuing segment of people of mixed racial background (including our current President) would never vote for a white male?

Are you saying that groups like second generation of Latinos who become increasingly "Americanized" would never do so?

Good lord......

[CrowCityDem]

58. I'm saying the white male vote doesn't win elections. Dems lose it and still win elections.

[Armstead]

64. I think most people are not going to vote solely on such things

After all, Obama is a half white male.

That's more a reflection of the melting pot..... except among racists and the relatively small number of people who live totally based on identity politics.

It has more to do with the quality of candidates.

[brush]

74. Three words: The Obama coalition

Sensible progressive whites who don't want Trump appointing the next 3 SCOTUS justices, Latino Americans, African Americans, women, gays, Asian Americans, Native Americans, and sensible, left-leaning and moderate independents — collectively these demographic segments are who mostly voted for and elected President Obama twice, and will also elect Clinton to the presidency.

Notice pls that they are a very diverse group, not the angry whites and/or racist whites who support Trump. High majorities of them will vote for Clinton as they voted for Obama (google their vote preferences from 2012 to see how strongly they preferred Obama over Romney)


Also it might help to notice that these population segments are, again, diverse, and mostly don't live in nearly all-white states (like Indiana) where Sanders does well. That fact doesn't bode well for Sanders in the upcoming primary states like New Jersey and California with large delegate numbers. But that doesn't really matter all that much since the race is all over but the shouting.

It'll be Clinton vs Trump in November and he will lose spectacularly.

[Armstead]

75. That same coalition would vote for Sanders if he were the nominee

There is NOTHING in Bernie's agenda that contradicts the interests of those groups, if the choice were between he and Trump.

Many of those kind of people ALREADY support Sanders. And there are a significant number of people support Clinton for "pragmatic" reasons, but openly either prefer or have no problem with Sanders and his positions. (I know a number of them.)

[brush]

80. Some of them, right, but not most

Especially the POCs, which is why Sanders is losing.

[Armstead]

82. Which would be voting against their own interests

The primary has been between Clinton and Sanders. And about personalities and longstanding loyalties the Clintons have cultivated.

It'd be a different matter if Sanders, with the support of the Democratic Party were running against Trump.

I know she's probably got it locked up. I just don't think the situation should be misrepresented, because what Sanders stands for is exactly what would resonate with a wide swath of people, if given a fair hearing.

[brush]

88. Are you actually going with that "not in their own best interests" crapolla?

Guess you weren't here when the whole "Stockholm Syndrome" flap was raging and the poster got banned for trying to tell POCs voting for Sanders was in their own best interests.

POCs make that determination, not you or other Sanders' supporters.

[Armstead]

107. I know about that whole flap -- and it's just a variation of the longstanding Democratic quandry

What's the matter with Kansas?

Forget, for a moment, the racial implications Clintonites seem determined to put onto everything.

Yes, if POC, white people, males, females, gays,straights, young, old, fat peopel, thin people....and whatever otehr demographic divider you care to mention -- choose for specious reasons to do a reverse version of Clinton or Bust" if Sanders were to be the nominee, they would be voting (or not voting) against their own interests by helping to elect Trump.

[brush]

121. This does not get you off the hook for your "their own best interests" crap

The Obama coalition was never "our candidate or bust". That was you Sanders supporters.

We have better sense than that. We vote blue no matter who.

[Armstead]

122. Zell Miller for President

As far as being "on the hook."....Meh. People who want to bogusly apply charges of racism to everything that isn't 100 percent for their particular candidate...I could care less.

[brush]

124. You're the only one in this exchange who even mention racism.

Have anything better to offer?

[Armstead]

125. Cmon, don't play naive

"Especially the POCs, which is why Sanders is losing."

And insinuating that a point i made about the general lack of information out there about the goals of Sanders and his supporters was a slam at POCs.

[brush]

126. "Especially the POCs, which is why Sanders is losing", is racism?

Get real. You have perverted definition of what racism is.

Try something else.

[Armstead]

127. Not worth it...Have a nice evening

[a2liberal]

155. disingenuous much?

YOU are the one who argued, in post 80, that many of the "coalition" would not vote for Sanders if he were the nominee. Armstead was arguing the opposite (post 75). Your transparent attempt to turn it around on him/her and hide-bait is laughable to anyone reading the whole chain of messages.

P.S. I will not respond to any hide-bait attempts

[brush]

156. What are you talking about. The coalition will vote blue no matter who

That's what I said.

[Matt_R]

149. What "news" program was showing Sanders in a good light against Clinton?

If you haven' t noticed most Sanders supporters have to get their info from the internet. There is currently a media blackout on Sanders. If this election season was actually covering anything but a Clinton VS Trump matchup, we would have a real candidate.

[Doctor_J]

113. So the poc will vote for trump?

[brush]

123. Or course not. They have more sense than that.

Only the Bernie or busters vow to do that. POCS have very good sense and will vote blue no matter who.

[TM99]

128. That is just ludicrous.

PoC are like all other demographics. They are not monolithic. They do not vote in lockstep. They span the spectrum from informed awareness to low-information zombie voters.

If even 10% of AA's alone vote for Trump, Clinton loses, particularly given voter turnout on the Dem side as it has been in this primary thus far.

[brush]

129. I'm AA and I know that is not remotely possible.

And btw, Trump would have to get way more than 10% to even sniff getting close to a win.

[TM99]

130. I am bi-racial.

I grew up with my father's side of the family being Republican.

Now they were far more moderate decades ago than the current crazy religious GOP but they were and are quite conservative even today.

Several of Clinton's NC endorsers were AA men who voted for the vile bathroom bill.

[Garrett78]

133. Considering there've only been 2 candidates (meaning 2 GOTV campaigns) for the most part...

...Dem turnout shouldn't be a concern. Not to mention all of the media attention Trump Mania has gotten. Anyway, Trump won't get 10% of the African American vote.

[TM99]

137. Obviously I am not as optimistic

as others here who continue to sling shit at me instead of addressing the very real possibility.

Van Jones is warning about this. Low turnout in the primaries does translate to low turnout in the general. And I know that Americans in general, and I don't give a fuck what race, gender, orientation, whatever they are, are generally zombie voters. They are not well-educated, forgetful of recent history, and either overwhelmed by their shitty lives or distracted by the pretty shinies of their new iToy!

[Garrett78]

139. You should Google "does low turnout in primaries translate to low turnout in the general election"

There's a plethora of articles on the topic. Hint: the answer is "No."

As for most Americans not following politics very closely, I absolutely agree.

[TM99]

142. I did.

And some pundits not researchers say no. Researchers show a mixed bag. And in some instances like 2008, primary turn out was huge but GE turnout was still lower than 2004.

The other parts of the analysis are concerned with the types of election years they are. 2008 could be a win for the D's because even though turnout was low, Obama was a change and it was time for the D's to be allowed to take back the White House. Americans are loathe to allow one party to control the White House for longer than 8 years with very very few exceptions.

This year is not a change year. In fact it is the R's turn historically. A clear non-establishment candidate won the GOP nomination in a anti-establishment change election. On the left, however, it is still a battle between the establishment and the non-establishment candidate. If Clinton cinches it, she will likely lose because of the zeitgeist. Independents and youth will sit this one out or vote third party or just down ticket. They are being slammed, insulted, dismissed, and marginalized, and that is not just white males - women, AA's, latino's, and LGBT. They are not monolithic voting blocks and Clinton has not done well with under 45 years in all demographics.

[brush]

140. Monolith? No. but the vast majority of AAs will not touch Trump

Maybe you don't know but AAs routinely vote blue in the 90% + range in presidential cycles, and Latino American and Asian American aren't far behind.

Google it.

[TM99]

141. Trump will never win the GOP

nominee.

Google it.

[brush]

144. Ahhh . . . Cruz and Kasich just quit after he won Indiana.

[TM99]

145. And Cruz knew how to play the ground game.

He began to 'steal' delegates from Trump.

Trump fired his failing staff, hired new consultants, and beat him at his own game.

I just don't get why so many refuse to see that this man is not to be underestimated.

[brush]

146. Cruz is through.

[Sparkly]

71. Exactly.

[Ash_F]

77. How did they do with the under 30 vote?

[JPnoodleman]

87. So politics is basically a race/gender war of stabbing at each other?

Shall I vote republican then since this is a party that doesn't need white voters?

[JaneyVee]

3. Hillary won Indiana black vote 3:1

[jillan]

6. And she will win even larger margins in the GE but these are the areas where she is vulnerable.

[JaneyVee]

8. Indiana is the most conservative red state in midwest...

We'll be ok. For a general election I would be much more worried about Bernies inability to turn out minorities and women.

[NorthCarolina]

116. I'm curious your thoughts. We're Bernie the nominee in the GE

do you think the black community would vote against him?

[leeroysphitz]

4. None of this alters the fact that it's Clinton's turn and she is entitled to the nomination. n/t

[LanternWaste]

20. So alleges the second-placers.

So alleges the second-placers.

[pdsimdars]

93. And don't forget, she's a WOMAN and is supposed to be the first female President, right?

because the GOP has picked on her so much for so long that we owe it to her.

[ozone_man]

118. And she has suffered through Bill's philandering

and womanizing all these years. It's her turn!

[840high]

135. And only two houses... poor thang.

[Matt_R]

150. +1 Exactly its Clintons turn. Do not go against her third term. It might ber her last chance.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

5. Trump has the GOP election fraud machine behind him and a flurry of

social media posers who work daily to tell people that Hillary cant win or if she can why you should stay home anyway.




So yes, it is possible he could steal the election.

So those of us who dont want women dying in back alleys or Muslims and Latinos deported for being the wrong color or religion, need to do something about that.

[Hiraeth]

7. If stolen it can be then, Trump will steal it, regardless the nominee.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

9. No, it is the same machine used in 2012, and Obama won. Difference is when the

5 criminals on the SC gutted voting rights.

[Hiraeth]

14. the machine does not care.

[brush]

76. And you think Sanders' is immune to the machine, if such a machine works?

Like it worked for Rove on his nationally televised meltdown on FOX in 2012 when he realized his vote stealing machine had been neutralized?

[haikugal]

40. I think the election fraud device works both sides, as needed.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

42. Liberals dont believe or say that, not in my experience and lifetime. Not since the early 60's

[haikugal]

46. The ones with eyes wide shut don't I'm sure, the rest can see.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

48. Well, if you have evidence of that, I would love to see it.

[haikugal]

55. Evidence? It's everywhere and being investigated in multiple states. It's been remarked upon

By ex presidents. Open your eyes, turn on the lights, get a damned LED flashlight!

[Jackie Wilson Said]

57. No, I asked for EVIDENCE. You see I am a true liberal, which means if

Hillary people are actually doing this, I want to know and I want to deal with it.

If it is true, it still changes NOTHING as what you must do, I must do, in November.

This is not brain surgery.

[haikugal]

60. You don't define me, I am a liberal not a corporate dem who is liberal only on some social policy.

I refuse to vote for republicans, and I'm not alone. Open your eyes.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

63. If you think she is a repub, then you simply dont know what you are talking about.

With all due respect.

[haikugal]

65. With all due respect, you've drunk the Cool-Aid.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

66. LOL oh my, I have drunk lots of stuff, dropped lots of stuff too.

But, sadly I have also been around for a very long time, and this is not a debate, it is just an emotional person with not much information expressing distress.

Either that or here to express an agenda that is not from the Democratic Party.

And I dont know if you are male or female, but as a Bernie or bust I think emotional is the only positive way to express what you are.

[haikugal]

70. .

You can try to dismiss me and in your own mind succeed but reality is something very different. Who I am, what sex I am, how old I am, is none of your business and makes no damned difference anyway.

[farleftlib]

78. When you go there

You've lost the argument. There are so many logical fallacies in your post
it'd be hard to catalogue them, but really, who cares? HRC fans have blinded
themselves to reality.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

79. Go where? What reality? You have been played by the right wing conspiracy.

93% of what you think you know about her you heard from them.

BTW, I dont like her, at all, have a long list of people I would rather have, Bernie is at the top.

But here is where the grownup part comes in, I cant have ANY of the people on my list.

I can have Hillary or Drumpf, and that isnt even a contest.

[dchill]

11. K&R.

[appalachiablue]

12. Obvious truth, Bernie has the wider appeal and message, is the candidate for the times!

[grasswire]

19. Jane looks great in that photo.

Very flattering!

[appalachiablue]

38. Jane does look great, Bernie too. Photo taken in Times Sq. New York.

[pdsimdars]

94. Such a normal, representave of American woman.

[grasswire]

96. Yes. No artifice.

Gawd, think of having to watch the Trump women all the time. Ugh.

Maybe we ought to drum up some money to send Jane some flowers prior to the convention. Wouldn't that be cool??

[CrowCityDem]

24. So wide he's a mile behind.

[Firebrand Gary]

15. Bernie and his supporters continue to attack the democratic nominee.

That does in fact hurt her, it's true that Sander's does have a part in it. I get that you love Sander's, it's obvious and respected, however Hillary Clinton will be the nominee. Saying otherwise is disingenuous, she has a far bigger lead than Obama ever had. Holding her to a different standard is something the democratic party will not tolerate.

I'd also add that I find your little flyer dishonest, you can point the finger at others, however there are three finger's pointing back and they are African Americans, Hispanics and Women.

[jillan]

17. These are not lies. These are the areas where Hillary is vulnerable in the GE.

Yes she does better with other voters not listed in this meme but these are the areas where Trump does better than her.

[Garrett78]

18. You seriously think Trump will win the millennial vote?

Really?

[Firebrand Gary]

29. Exactly why it's important to support the presumptive nominee.

Yes, she has struggles with some of those numbers and it's why its imperative to stop party infighting and begin uniting, something that only Sander's has the power to do. Especially in the light that even Kasich is dropping out this evening. There are three people in this race now and two of those people are attacking the democratic nominee.

I also think that Hillary will receive many, many female republican voters which will offset anything that Trump will attract. Country to what you might think Jillan, I do have a lot of respect for you, you've been one of the most vocal Sander's supporters on DU. I know from experience that it sucks more than anything to see your candidate not get to what you've worked so hard to achieve. It's the absolute worst.

But we've got a fascist at the gate and he will do or say anything to get inside, we've got to start coming together.

[farleftlib]

52. She's the presumptive nominee?

Presumptuous maybe. It ain't over until Philly and that's several months from now.

[Kittycat]

68. Why would I ever support someone that put our security at risk?

Knowingly installing a server in their home? How stupid can someone be. Honestly? Not to mention everything else, but why even when there's that alone. FFS! She's under FBI investigation for it, along with dealing associated with the Clinton foundation. No thank you. And not only that, for those of us that deal with local republican corruption - we lose all standing by supporting someone like her. No way!

[haikugal]

49. She is NOT the nominee, who are you trying to fool?

[Ed Suspicious]

53. She is not the fucking nominee!

[Yurovsky]

69. And yet they get mad when we say she wants a coronation...

when in fact HRC & her loyalists want EXACTLY that. They don't want to fight for it. They just want it given to them and if anyone splashes cold water on their dream, they wet the damn bed and go into hysterics and get smarmy as all hell.

If Bernie can win California, and win it convincingly, Hillary's inevitability goes right out the damn window. I sure hope the state that has led the way on so many progressive issues can deliver us from corporatism. We have had enough status quo rich get richer bullshit.

[Firebrand Gary]

104. She EARNED her votes, there was no coronation.

The Sander's campaign is soon nearing the point of having to reconcile why he wants to overturn the will of the voters, especially when those voters are all of the minority demographics. Hillary is expanding the Obama coalition, Sander's reduced it. Bernie has not won any of the demographics that carried Obama twice into the oval office. Hillary is the future of the democratic party, it shows in the numbers.

Now as for California, 538 has Clinton winning at 95%, Survey USA has Hilary up 20 points in California. http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/election-2016/primary-forecast/california-democratic/

[questionseverything]

112. 538 had hc @ 90% for indiana

[Garrett78]

114. There was no coronation, nor do I see anyone calling for one.

There are, however, patterns. Such as the pattern of Clinton doing much better, overall, in delegate-rich states and among POC. That pattern was established in the first half of March. With there being no reason to believe that pattern would magically get flipped upside down, it was clear that the race was essentially over by mid-March. It's just math. No coronation, just basic math.

[Arugula Latte]

59. She's not the nominee yet.

We've had a terrible corrupt lying DINO corporate-coddling Wall St.-loving pro-fracking pro-death penalty DLC crappy candidate shoved down our throats. You expect us to suddenly jump on the Hillary bandwagon and have everything be sunshine and roses?

A lot of us are thoroughly disgusted with the direction of this party we've supported for decades.

[Matt_R]

153. +1

[Buns_of_Fire]

91. "..something the democratic party will not tolerate"

Oh, really? They tolerated some of their own congresscritters undermining the President on the ACA just fine. I guess their gumption stops at the voters, since they don't need our votes anyway.

[dana_b]

98. are we in a time warp?

Did I miss 2.5 months? Wow! I need to give up the coffee!

[Matt_R]

151. Its Clintons turn. Don't go against the inevitable. She NEEDS a third term.

[Garrett78]

16. Most of those voting for Sanders now will vote for Clinton in November.

Plus, those voting for Clinton now will also vote for Clinton in November. So, the graphic in the OP is meaningless.

As for white voters (specifically white men), no Democratic candidate for president has won the white vote since LBJ. That didn't stop Carter from winning, Clinton winning twice, Gore winning (even if it was stolen), Obama winning twice and Kerry coming very close to unseating an incumbent president. And Bobby Kennedy may have won in '68.

The base of the Democratic Party has become increasingly diverse. It's far more important to have POC and women solidly behind the Democratic candidate. Especially the older, more reliable voters.

[grasswire]

21. 18 percent of Democrats will not vote for her -- latest polling.

Democrats are 27 percent of the electorate IIRC.

[grasswire]

27. How do you win a GE with that?

You don't.

You have to appeal to Indies and Republicans.

Indies do not support HRC.

Most Republicans will not support her and will crawl over broken glass to vote against her.

The only way out of this is Bernie. Or a Biden/Warren ticket imposed on the Democratic Party, but that way lies trouble, too.

[Garrett78]

37. Democrats don't win the White House by appealing to Republicans.

I see posts talking about how Republican support of Clinton is proof that she's "one of them." And then I see posts talking about how the Democratic candidate must appeal to Republicans. Peeps can't have it both ways.

As for "independents," I've already written on that topic quite a bit. Long story short, most who self-identify as "independent" are actually party loyalists and Obama was able to win in an electoral college landslide in 2012 in spite of losing the independent vote (overall and in swing states). Millions of "independents" will vote for Clinton and millions of others won't. That's just the way it is. Half of Tea Party members self-identify as "independent," and I'm certainly not concerned with appealing to them.

[grasswire]

39. Is that true of independents?

Millions of them are millennials who have never voted before. They have NO party loyalty. Zero. And they are NOT in Hillary's camp.

[bettyellen]

84. Winning the swing states and big blue ones. She already has the swings over SBS.

[pdsimdars]

97. Which shows that the Hillary supporters are not really focused on winning the election, but only

in making any excuse to promote Hillary. If they were really interested in getting the best candidate for the GE, they would be paying attention to all the polling and Hillary's negatives

[SheenaR]

22. Please don't speak for "most" of us. Your intentions are good. But "most" of us is a stretch.

[JaneyVee]

26. According to polling, yes, most.

She even beats Trump with millennials 62-21

[grasswire]

28. link? nt

[grasswire]

41. link? nt

[Stuckinthebush]

85. Polls

Hillary wins millennials
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/trackers/2016-04-25/clinton-beats-trump-for-millennials-in-harvard-poll

Hillary gets 69% of Bernie voters

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/election/article70202867.html

[Garrett78]

30. I don't think it's a stretch at all.

It's important to remember that DU is not even remotely representative of the population as a whole.

[SheenaR]

36. You are correct

Having just helped win a state and working with over a hundred individuals over a few weeks while we campaigned, I feel safe to say that "most" is a stretch. They won't show. Bookmark it

[Garrett78]

44. I'd bet at least 2/3rds of those voting for Sanders now will vote for Clinton in November.

A good lot of those who won't are likely in the 18-25 age range, which is the group with the worst turnout rate anyway.

[SheenaR]

73. Again

If you are out in the field, knocking on doors, working and organizing with Sanders supporters let me know. I am. Almost all, including me, were over 25. You are in for a surprise from this group.

Not advocating one way or the other. Just letting you know.

[Garrett78]

81. Some who say they won't ultimately will. Not all, but some.

When it comes down to crunch time, especially in swing states, some folks will change their mind. I think someone posted a poll not long ago that suggested 1/3rd of Sanders supporters won't vote for Clinton in November. And that was in the midst of a heated battle between Sanders and Clinton.

Regardless, Clinton's path to 270 is much easier than Trump's.

[Aerows]

161. "DU doesn't matter...

...so I will just badger the hell out of everybody on DU about supporting the candidate that I like."

Does that about sum it up? Because that seems to be exactly what you are doing.

[apnu]

25. ^^^ This post is spot on (nt)

[bigbrother05]

61. The reverse is also true, most HRC voters would back Bernie

His solid credentials and voting record for women and minorities when coupled with his support for Veterans would likely swamp any smears by the GOP. The fact that minorities turned out for HRC is a tribute to the organizational power of the Dem establishment. As the Dem establishment, they will line up behind the chosen candidate, it's the independents and marginals that are up for grabs.

None of us should take a Trump loss for granted, W was an object lesson in the fallacy that the parties are just alike. We need to decide who is best for the country's future and the GE will take care of itself.

[HooptieWagon]

131. Half at best.

A large majority of Sanders indie supporters won't vote for her, plus 20% or so of Democrats. She pulls 1/3 or less of indies. Neither D nor R candidate can win without a majority of independant voters.

[Garrett78]

132. Obama lost the independent vote in 2012 but won re-election with ease.

Not long ago someone posted a poll that suggested 1/3rd of Sanders supporters won't vote for Clinton in November. And that was in the midst of a heated campaign. I seriously doubt less than 2/3rds of those voting for Sanders now (not including those who are disingenuous and taking advantage of open primaries) will vote for Clinton in November.

Half of the DU crowd, maybe. But DU isn't representative of the population at large.

[HooptieWagon]

134. No. He split indies about 50/50.

And almost all Sanders supporters on DU are Democrats, the majority will hold their noses and vote for Clinton. Her bigger problem is left-leaning Independants. They very likely vote Stein or stay home. There's no reason for them to vote Dem out of party loyalty, they have to like the candidate.

[Garrett78]

138. No, he lost the independent vote by 5 points.

And he lost the independent vote in the crucial state of Ohio by 9 or 10 points, yet still won Ohio and still won re-election in an electoral college landslide.

[Darb]

32. Still not voting for the Socialist.

Sorry. Well-regulated capitalism is better. We need to make some changes, but socialism will lose in a huge, huge way. And nobody has even begun to hang Venezuela on Bernie's neck yet, but it would come down straight away.

[grasswire]

47. Bernie is a DEMOCRATIC socialist.

Please look up the difference, and also look at the fact that very very few people in America are afraid of socialism any more. The fear is just not there. Young people want what people in Europe are flourishing under. Only relics fear socialism these days.

[RufusTFirefly]

51. Sorry, but in a sense, Democratic Socialism IS "well-regulated capitalism"

Do you think our streets, parks, schools, public transportation, retirement system, and post offices need to be privatized? I'm assuming you don't.

Do you believe in fair taxation? I'm assuming you do.

Most of us identify these as bedrock principles and essential elements of our infrastructure, equalizers that strengthen the country as a whole and put all Americans on firmer footing.

Bernie simply wants to expand the scope of essential infrastructure to include modern necessities like decent health care and a college education. He wants to make the tax system more equitable and wants to prevent a small group of people from exploiting a much larger group for the sake of their own selfish profits.

[bigbrother05]

67. Democratic Socialism = Well regulated Capitalism

Enforcement of sensible regulations providing a fair marketplace while providing a social safety net.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. My god you just defined SOCIAL DEMOCRACY!!!!

Irony... you got it

[pdsimdars]

101. Come on, you aren't really that uninformed. Really. When you go over the top like that

and make such laughably stupid statements, who is going to take you seriously.

We have a LONG history with Bernie and your insinuation is just off the wall.

[senz]

117. Bernie is an FDR Democrat. He's pro-business and pro-social safety net.

Last year, Bernie gave a speech at Georgetown University on his brand of socialism. Here is an excerpt:

[Arugula Latte]

157. You honestly don't understand that Social Democracy IS well-regulated capitalism?

I hate to break it to you, but the social democracies of Europe are functioning at a much higher level and providing better lives for their people than the USA, with its twisted, warped version of shock doctrine capitalism. Hillary wants to continue the current system, in which wealthy corporations get tax breaks or pay no taxes and also receive subsidies while millions of working people live in poverty and can't afford healthcare.

[Darb]

158. Sorry, Bernie is a Socialist.

You guys can claim "Democratic Socialism" all you want to, but the truth is, Bernie is Socialist. Why can't you just own it. He wore it proudly right up until he needed the Democratic Party to help him get on the big stage.

[Arugula Latte]

159. Lol.

Wilful ignorance, no desire to see a spectrum, black and white thinking...

Personally I like Socialism, but I think Democratic Socialism is the best system, combining the strengths of both Socialism and Capitalism.

But, yeah, I guess you're right. Bernie is pretty much like Stalin. We would have had Five Year Plans for our wheat harvest had he become the president. Oh, and lots of purges.

[Darb]

160. Don't be daft.

Bernie was a "socialist" right up until he ran for president. Own it.

[CobaltBlue]

162. Darb—I'm still not voting for the Diet Republican that you support.

[SidDithers]

33. 1704 to 1414...

If Bernie doesn't turn that around, he's going to have a problem.

Sid

[Stuckinthebush]

86. Plus the unpledged

Gets her to close to 2200

I know some like to ignore the unpledged but that's silly

[SidDithers]

89. Yup. 2202 to 1455 according to The Green Papers...

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/D



Sid

[Stuckinthebush]

90. To think that they will abandon her

For a one note candidate that has millions of fewer votes and who has alienated many in the party is pure fantasy.

[amborin]

34. HRC means FTAs, War, Lies, Wall St. Empowerment, Inequality

[grasswire]

50. also impeachment, scandal, and drama. 24/7/365/4 years. nt

[Demsrule86]

62. Obama lost Indiana primary

And we have won it once in about 60 years.Bernie has lost the primary; he is on Trump's team now. He does no good for the American people.

[pdsimdars]

92. But you can't really use these numbers because they aren't TRUE DEMOCRATS

They reflect the actual General Election voters better so . . . . . . . .

Oh wait, these are the voters who will VOTE in the GE. So, that would be a GOOD thing to think about right????

Or should we just dismiss them because this is a Democratic Primary and they aren't all Democrats?

[Garrett78]

95. Most of those voting for Sanders now will vote for Clinton in November.

If not "most," certainly a majority. Plus, those voting for Clinton now will also vote for Clinton in November. So, the graphic in the OP is meaningless. Does anyone seriously think Trump will win the millennial vote?

As for white voters (specifically white men), no Democratic candidate for president has won the white vote since LBJ. That didn't stop Carter from winning, Clinton winning twice, Gore winning (even if it was stolen), Obama winning twice and Kerry coming very close to unseating an incumbent president. And Bobby Kennedy may have won in '68.

The base of the Democratic Party has become increasingly diverse. It's far more important to have POC and women solidly behind the Democratic candidate. Especially the older, more reliable voters.

[pdsimdars]

99. No, that's a great argument. . . these voting blocks PREFER Bernie, so ignore that preference

and take the chance that you can force them to vote for Hillary. That's the real Democratic way, ignore what the voters prefer and push your own agenda. Yea, real democratic.

[Garrett78]

102. I didn't say a thing about forcing anyone to do anything, but okay.

Don't you think people who voted for Bradley in 2000 voted for Gore in November of that year? Don't you think people who voted for Edwards or Kucinich or Dean voted for Kerry in November? Don't you think people who voted for Clinton in 2008 voted for Obama in November? And I don't mean a handful of them. I mean *millions* of them.

And I'll ask again, do you think Trump will win the millennial vote against Clinton?

[pdsimdars]

105. But that is what people in your position are saying. . .

People show a preference for Bernie over Hillary in all those voting blocks.

You are making the case for Hillary with the argument that you can essentially ignore what they want so you can give them who YOU want and they'll come along. Essentially -- ignore what polls show they want, and give them YOUR choice.

It seems much smarter to me, to take the Democratic candidate the people prefer, that way you take their enthusiasm for the candidate. Why go for the candidate that people don't really want? You get the democratic candidate that dampens their enthusiasm. That doesn't seem that smart.

And why do that? Why argue for the candidate that people MIGHT settle for? Are her positions on issues better? No! She has had to be dragged into Democratic positions.

This is why it makes no sense to us with brains. . . drag and guilt people into voting for a candidate who has weak positions on Democratic issues. It makes no sense.

[Garrett78]

106. First of all, I don't have a candidate.

Secondly, Clinton is beating Sanders by a pretty wide margin (wider than Obama beat her by in 2008). So, it's absurd to suggest that Clinton is "the candidate that people don't really want."

Thirdly, people who support Candidate A over Candidate B during the primary typically vote for Candidate B come November if Candidate B ends up being the nominee.

Lastly, there are key voting blocs who have not been won over by Sanders (not even close). POC and women being strong supporters of the nominee is key to victory in November, but get no mention in the OP of this thread. White men are a voting bloc that no Democratic candidate for president has won a majority of since LBJ, and that hasn't kept Democrats out of the White House. And it's ridiculous to think Trump will win the millennial vote, which is probably why you refused to answer my question about millennials.

[pdsimdars]

109. we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Clinton won Indiana in 08

Here's the polling data from Indiana, and since it was an open primary, more clearly reflects the voters who will vote in the GE. Winning among Democrats only isn't a really good indicator for the GE.





I love it when people try to lecture about their theories when there is data out there



.

[Garrett78]

115. There is data out there, indeed.

Data that you're ignoring. Data about POC. Data about women. Data about who millennials would vote for in a Clinton vs. Trump election. Data about who independents are.

On top of all that, there's common sense reasoning that says many who are voting for Sanders now will vote for Clinton in November.

Yes, Clinton won Indiana in 2008. When you stop to think critically for a moment, you come to understand that Clinton is relying largely on the Obama constituency. Her focus is on diverse, delegate-rich states. Therefore, she is the Obama of 2008 and Sanders is the Clinton of 2008. Except that her lead is much bigger than Obama's ever was in the 2008 primary.

[dana_b]

100. K&R for truth and for

the person who SHOULD be the Democratic nominee.

[senz]

119. Looks like she's going to try to win on Trump fear w/herself as the only alternative

and we know the MSM will help her.

[Lil Missy]

136. She doesn't have to turn anything around. Bernie is not a choice in the GE - he lost. n/t

[Onlooker]

147. Trump got twice as many votes as Bernie in Indiana

Looks like even with all the white support Bernie has, he wouldn't have a shot at Indiana.

[w4rma]

154. Trump got three times as many votes as Hillary in Indiana. (nt)