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The strongest argument against Donald Trump. (Original Post) kentuck May 2016 OP
He is a manufactured candidate Rosa Luxemburg May 2016 #1
Trump, is a symptom of the disillusionment, hatred and brainwashing in this country. n/t RKP5637 May 2016 #4
If only it were that simple. BillZBubb May 2016 #6
Agree!!! Very well said!!! n/t RKP5637 May 2016 #9
Hillary or Trump, pick your poison. Broward May 2016 #2
I pick the D arsenic. Every time. trof May 2016 #26
I agree gopiscrap May 2016 #51
Kind of ironic Urchin May 2016 #32
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel May 2016 #3
They want an economic savior. BillZBubb May 2016 #7
Well the DNC isn't exactly giving a shit about them. n/t JPnoodleman May 2016 #22
And that's our problem. The Third Way has thrown them and progressives aside. BillZBubb May 2016 #24
I for one don't want those racists in this party. They're with the repugs where they belong. brush May 2016 #30
Trump is not insane. Can we stop this foolish hyperbole? BillZBubb May 2016 #5
Openly endorsing possible nuclear warfare is... kentuck May 2016 #10
If so, US defense policy is insane. BillZBubb May 2016 #12
True. kentuck May 2016 #14
And then on the other side, is a long FBI investigation while she libdem4life May 2016 #20
Not gonna happen. It's a repug fantasy taken up by too many Dems. brush May 2016 #31
Fantasy. Seriously. You run with that one. libdem4life May 2016 #36
Don't hold your breath until there's an indictment. brush May 2016 #38
HRC doesn't need an indictment to be a lousy choice for President. libdem4life May 2016 #41
What's your foundation on for an impeachment on day 1? brush May 2016 #42
Well right now, democrats are trying to cut Soc. Sec. ViseGrip May 2016 #8
These people have so discredited the Democratic Party ... kentuck May 2016 #11
What do you mean the "Dems"? brush May 2016 #43
He is not more "liberal" than either Hillary or Bernie on any issue. pampango May 2016 #13
Maybe true... kentuck May 2016 #15
Trump is not H2O Man May 2016 #44
Times change as do the issues that are conservative/liberal. BillZBubb May 2016 #16
If you are saying that FDR was actually a conservative on trade, I disagree. pampango May 2016 #37
As I said things change. Today's trade deals are a far cry from what FDR supported. BillZBubb May 2016 #40
There is no H2O Man May 2016 #48
Times are really changing. FDR's policies are dissed here as "issues from a century ago". pampango May 2016 #50
How are today's trade agreements different from FDR's International Trade Organization? pampango May 2016 #49
Great response. H2O Man May 2016 #45
So why the fuck would Bill Clinton encourage him to run? bunnies May 2016 #17
This message was self-deleted by its author artislife May 2016 #19
This. No Red or Blue, Elephant or Donkey...just Green. libdem4life May 2016 #21
Green is the universal language. BillZBubb May 2016 #25
Do you think Bill ever considered that Trump would win the nod? bunnies May 2016 #27
This message was self-deleted by its author artislife May 2016 #33
They learned too late. nt bunnies May 2016 #35
Just humoring him, propably didn't think he would run, much less win. brush May 2016 #39
Well the truth is he has no real convictions regarding any political ideology. DCBob May 2016 #18
Maybe another good description is that of a gambler. nt BootinUp May 2016 #29
Guam? kstewart33 May 2016 #23
This message was self-deleted by its author artislife May 2016 #34
Never ever underestimate Trump Kilgore May 2016 #28
Nice Trump Humping there. JTFrog May 2016 #47
Nope, not me Kilgore May 2016 #52
Fuck Trump. JTFrog May 2016 #46

Rosa Luxemburg

(28,627 posts)
1. He is a manufactured candidate
Sat May 7, 2016, 09:29 AM
May 2016

an experiment. Unfortunately for this country the experiment has worked. People have been so brain-washed. People from other countries shake their heads. We are doomed.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
6. If only it were that simple.
Sat May 7, 2016, 10:12 AM
May 2016

Trump is a symptom of the failure of our two political parties. The disillusionment is real and justified. The system is rigged such that any profit generated by the economy is funneled upward. The system is rigged through "free trade" deals that hold American wages down and move jobs overseas. The result is a middle class that continues to shrink and sees it's real income decline over time in spite of increased productivity.

Guys like trump provide easy answers to the disillusioned. It's those dang foreigners fault! Build a wall! His position is disgusting and hateful. But, he is correct about "free trade" but discussions about that aren't going to galvanize the republican base.

More than brainwashing and hatred, what we are seeing is a manifestation of fear. Everyday people, not the well off, are afraid of economic vulnerability and terrorism. That makes them susceptible to people like trump.

trof

(54,256 posts)
26. I pick the D arsenic. Every time.
Sat May 7, 2016, 08:04 PM
May 2016

Look, we all now know it's rigged.
The "two party system".
The two parties do all they can to make damned sure there is never any chance for a third (or more?) party.

They are both on the gravy train and they don't want to share.
We, the middle and lower classes, are basically screwed, but we at least think that we are slightly less screwed by the dems.

We (I) believe that enough to vote dem.
If I wasn't so goddamned old I'd move to another country.
This from a 75 year old veteran.

 

Urchin

(248 posts)
32. Kind of ironic
Sat May 7, 2016, 10:05 PM
May 2016

That the choice comes down to a billionaire and someone who gets lots of money from billionaires.

Response to kentuck (Original post)

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
7. They want an economic savior.
Sat May 7, 2016, 10:16 AM
May 2016

The other stuff is just a perceived way to achieve that.

To their credit, they are rejecting what is called conservatism today--which has failed them. To their shame, they are embracing the things you mention--which will fail them.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
5. Trump is not insane. Can we stop this foolish hyperbole?
Sat May 7, 2016, 09:55 AM
May 2016

I am not sure why you put "conservative" and "liberal" in quotation marks. trump is not conservative on many issues and only mildly so on others. trump is very liberal on some issues, and yes more so than Hillary.

What is dangerous about him is his nativism, saber rattling, crudeness and poorly thought out positions. He's in over his head in discussing policy and usually just says whatever first pops into his head.

That's not insanity. But, it doesn't describe someone who should be president either.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
12. If so, US defense policy is insane.
Sat May 7, 2016, 01:43 PM
May 2016

Most of our national defense is built on possible nuclear warfare. Trump was impolitic enough to say it out loud. Like I said, he spouts the first thing that pops into his head without thinking it through.

You will recall that near the end of that interview he said "I wouldn't use nukes, but I won't take them off the table either". That has been the US policy since the Cold War began.

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
20. And then on the other side, is a long FBI investigation while she
Sat May 7, 2016, 07:24 PM
May 2016

hums merrily on her way to pit her ability to get another Get Out Of Jail Free card against the entire potential Democratic Party's future.

One would think that the fix was in ... and perhaps it is.



 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
41. HRC doesn't need an indictment to be a lousy choice for President.
Sun May 8, 2016, 11:25 AM
May 2016

She'll be dodging the impeachment papers from Day 1...if she even makes it there. I think there may be less "cover" for her and the entire House will get into it.

She's the gold standard for "forgetting, not understanding, political feeble-mindlessness, ignoring, mis-stating" and, for which I'm most angry, a piss poor role model for young women and girls.

brush

(53,764 posts)
42. What's your foundation on for an impeachment on day 1?
Sun May 8, 2016, 11:35 AM
May 2016

That's . . . well, I'll same it . . . a fantasy.

She'll face obstructionism from day 1 like Obama has (unless we win the Senate), but impeachment, there would be no grounds for it on day 1.

 

ViseGrip

(3,133 posts)
8. Well right now, democrats are trying to cut Soc. Sec.
Sat May 7, 2016, 10:21 AM
May 2016

Hillary says nothing on this! It's already up on DU.
Mark Warner lobbied by Joe Lieberman and Jon Huntsman.


The dems we have, and the ones we get rid of that come back!

kentuck

(111,078 posts)
11. These people have so discredited the Democratic Party ...
Sat May 7, 2016, 11:29 AM
May 2016

...that if there was an Independent running this time around, he would probably win. It is going to be very difficult for a Democrat or a Republican to unite our people. It will have to be an Independent, out of necessity.

brush

(53,764 posts)
43. What do you mean the "Dems"?
Sun May 8, 2016, 11:38 AM
May 2016

If one particular dem said something about being against SS does not mean the party is.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
13. He is not more "liberal" than either Hillary or Bernie on any issue.
Sat May 7, 2016, 01:52 PM
May 2016

He is "Mr. We Need to Build Up the Military and Obliterate ISIS". "I was for the Iraq War before I was against it."

He will rip up all of our international agreements from the Iran nuclear deal to trade agreements to the Paris climate agreement to everything else. This is more Pat Buchanan or Herbert Hoover but it is not more "liberal".

"He is not 'conservative'. No he just wants to cut us off from the rest of the world with walls, tariffs and travel bans aimed at foreigners. Back in FDR's day that was considered "conservative". Perhaps it is more 'bipartisan' now. FDR worked to connect us with the rest of the world - an 'internationalist in an isolationist age'.

kentuck

(111,078 posts)
15. Maybe true...
Sat May 7, 2016, 03:14 PM
May 2016

But I do not think many Republicans regard him as "conservative". And I think that is an important criteria for many of their votes. With some, it obviously doesn't matter.

H2O Man

(73,528 posts)
44. Trump is not
Sun May 8, 2016, 12:12 PM
May 2016

a neoconservative, and thus is less likely to seek to expand the US violence in the Middle East than is Clinton (who is, by definition, a neoconservative).

It's hard to argue that Hillary is "more liberal" on foreign policy.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
16. Times change as do the issues that are conservative/liberal.
Sat May 7, 2016, 06:59 PM
May 2016

On trade agreements, trump is far to the left of Hillary.

In the US, who supports these trade deals? The corporations and corporatists. The republicans. Third Way conservaDems. That's the conservative position.

Who opposes them? Labor, progressives, working people. That's the liberal position.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
37. If you are saying that FDR was actually a conservative on trade, I disagree.
Sun May 8, 2016, 07:00 AM
May 2016

If you are saying that Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover and Donald Trump were/are liberal on trade - and FDR should have left well enough alone, not gone conservative and promoted trade and trade agreement and we should leave the Donald alone (he's a true liberal) - I disagree.

If you are saying that Sweden, Canada, Denmark, Germany, etc. are conservative on trade, I disagree (as would their labor unions, working people and progressives).

In the US, who supports these trade deals?

Polls show that Democrats support them while the republican base consistently opposes them. Their base has not changed its attitude towards trade. The Donald has read the republican base's hatred of trade agreements well, better than past republican candidates (other than perhaps Ross Perot and Pat Buchanan) which is why he is the presumptive nominee of the conservative party. If you are saying that our base is conservative on trade while the republican base is liberal, I disagree.

I will stick with FDR's approach as do Sweden, Germany and a host of other progressive countries. You are welcome to stick with the candidate who is "far to the left" on trade (and wants to expand 'right-to-work' nationwide and enact huge tax cuts for the rich). The policy of FDR and Sweden has been proven to work. That of Herbert Hoover and Donald Trump, not so much.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
40. As I said things change. Today's trade deals are a far cry from what FDR supported.
Sun May 8, 2016, 10:54 AM
May 2016

Again, who opposes trade deals now? Labor, progressives and the working class.

Who supports them? The big corporations, the republican establishment and the conservaDems.

If you can't understand that, that's your problem.

H2O Man

(73,528 posts)
48. There is no
Sun May 8, 2016, 12:15 PM
May 2016

better proof that you nailed it, than a response that desperately attempts to divert the focus by a weak "if you are saying ....," and changing the topic from today's candidates, to issues from a century ago.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
50. Times are really changing. FDR's policies are dissed here as "issues from a century ago".
Sun May 8, 2016, 03:58 PM
May 2016

Of course, FDR and history itself are irrelevant. We 21st century Americans are "Exceptional". We don't want to hear about no stinking FDR and the Great Depression. History. Boring.

Do you find all of FDR's policies boring and irrelevant - high/progressive taxes, legal support for strong unions, an improved safety net, tighter regulation of businesses and corporations, etc.? Or is it just those policies - like trade - that you do not agree with which you find irrelevant?

If you find FDR irrelevant or boring, feel free to put me on ignore because there will be more FDR coming in the future. I would not want to bore you or waste your time with historical irrelevancy.

Of course, Trump's 'left' position on trade harkens back to that of Herbert Hoover and Calvin Coolidge who preceded FDR. High tariffs, low taxes on the rich, anti-union, deregulation, etc. So I guess Trump's "American First" trade policy is actually "history" in the sense it has been done before and it did not end well.

If you need more ammunition to show how irrelevant FDR is, check this out. It is a bit on the conservative side but it makes some points that you may like:

http://obamatrade.com

The first story there now boasts of Trump's warning about the “false song of globalism” compared to 'President Obama’s “No Walls” European tour'. To them globalism is a liberal plot.

Trump Stands Strong, Obama goes Trans

In his foreign policy address, Donald Trump warned against following the “false song of globalism.” This was a sharply different note and counterpoint to President Obama’s “No Walls” European tour. Donald Trump declared the nation state to be the foundation for harmony. He is openly skeptical of international unions that tie America down like Gulliver and the Lilliputians.

Barack Obama praised international institutionalized constraints on individual countries.

Barack Obama yammered on about pluralism, diversity and freedom as “universal values.”

Donald Trump said his policies on trade immigration and security would put America First.

This is followed up with more great ammunition to use against Obama:

Obamatrade and Washington’s bitter divorce from working Americans
How Obamatrade will strengthen China and further weaken the U.S.
Obamatrade renders Congress and the Constitution null and void
ObamaTrade trashes American jobs and sovereignty
The Heroes who voted Against Obamatrade- and the Traitors who voted For it

These are all written by ultra-conservatives but, hey, the enemy of my enemy ...

pampango

(24,692 posts)
49. How are today's trade agreements different from FDR's International Trade Organization?
Sun May 8, 2016, 03:47 PM
May 2016

48 countries signed the ITO agreement. FDR's idea was for the governing of trade cooperatively between nations. To take trade rules out of the hands of national governments who, in his eyes, always found reasons to restrict trade rather than expand it. To further promote trade, he introduced he concept of neutral arbitration to resolve trade disputes rather than each national government always resolving disputes in its own favor.

Again, who opposes trade deals now? Labor, progressives and the working class.

In the US those groups are joined by the republican base which has opposed all forms of international agreements for decades. Any poll will show that the republican base opposes trade agreements much more than the Democratic base.

Who supports them? The big corporations, the republican establishment and the conservaDems.

Again, polls show that Democrats support them while the republican base opposes them. (I don't consider our base to be more 'conservative' than the republican base. Quite the opposite. Perhaps we disagree on that.) Perhaps their base is just 'better informed' than ours though I doubt it. In Europe it is liberals who are trying to keep the EU together with its open trade. It is the far-right that is trying to destroy it in order to raise tariffs and create immigration barriers.

If you would like to see the polls that show the attitudes of liberals and conservatives towards trade agreements I will be happy to provide them. I have posted them many times before.

As I said things change.

Indeed they do. FDR had a Great Depression and historic income inequality to deal with as well as Nazi aggression in Europe and Japanese aggression is Asia. If a true liberal like FDR could promote trade and the governing of it cooperatively among nations during difficult times like those that is good enough for me.

If you can't understand that, that's your problem.

Response to bunnies (Reply #17)

Response to bunnies (Reply #27)

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
18. Well the truth is he has no real convictions regarding any political ideology.
Sat May 7, 2016, 07:13 PM
May 2016

He's a loose cannon and is liable to do anything. He would be a "shoot from the hip" President and his decisions will simply be based on his mood at the time. He is a dangerous lunatic.

Response to kstewart33 (Reply #23)

Kilgore

(1,733 posts)
52. Nope, not me
Sun May 8, 2016, 08:05 PM
May 2016

I hope he gives us a spectacular crash and burn.

But if you look at his track record up to this point, he has blown through all the predictions and expectations of failure. I don't know what the appeal is, but surly he is a force to contend with and those who write him off may be carrying their asses home in their hands post GE day.

We need to be clear eyed and have a plan to wage an effective fight. I for one will not be surprised at the wailing on DU post GE day by those who wrote trump off and didnt take him seriously.

Don't underestimate trump, you do so at your own peril! !!

 

JTFrog

(14,274 posts)
46. Fuck Trump.
Sun May 8, 2016, 12:13 PM
May 2016

And fuck all the stupid noise filling this forum. Never experienced more stupid in my life than during this primary.

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