Independent voters are chumps

[ProfessorPlum]

For a long time I've been trying to figure out how Sanders can get people so excited, pull big crowds, generate so much interest and passion, and then get beaten by Clinton at the polls. The phenomenon continues right to this day.

The only thing I can figure out is that a lot of attendees of his rallies, the people very excited by him, are independents, Republicans, or in some other way not affiliated with the Democratic party. So, they have a candidate they support, and want him to be the Democratic nominee, but apart from donating money or canvassing, they can't affect the vote - they can't vote for the candidate they support.

Republicans, well, I can understand. They are not well informed to begin with, so if a Sanders message resonates with them they are clearly in the wrong party.

But independents who like Sanders' message . . . they are deliberately dis-empowering themselves by not being members of the only party where that message can come from. They have to watch the parade go by.

Meanwhile, Democrats themselves are busy nominating the weaker candidate. Also bizarre to me, but then what do I know. In any event, by not belonging to the Democratic party (mostly due to the Democrats not fighting for the people), those independents shoot themselves right in the foot.

[onecaliberal]

1. Millions of Independents were NOT allowed to vote.

Make no mistake, they WILL vote in November, just not for her. There are MORE independents in this country than democrats or republicans. Politicians can dismiss them at their own peril.

[libdem4life]

7. If for no other reason, the impending instant impeachment papers ready to go.

[onecaliberal]

9. Agreed. And the sad thing is they'll actually have a point.

[randome]

16. No . Independents, Tea Partiers, Republicans, etc. should have no say in Demo. Party's nominee.

None. It's like they want to sit on the balcony and badmouth the play without having to lift a finger to actually do any work.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Matt_in_STL]

33. Then don't expect them to vote for the candidate you select for them

You want to win elections, you need people to vote. If they have no enthusiasm for the candidate you put before them, they won't vote. Don't expect to refuse them a choice from the menu and then gobble down the shit sandwich you serve them.

[farleftlib]

35. Abso-freaking-lutely

It's scary and frustrating that this needs to be said but you said it quite well.

[randome]

42. No one 'expects' anything from Independents.

If they choose to not belong to a party, they have chosen to have no say in who the nominee is. It really is as simple as that. You can't stand on the sidelines and complain that the quarterback isn't doing what you want.

Being an Independent is a lazy-ass way of saying you don't care to lift a fricking finger to do any actual work. Fine. Don't lift a finger.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Where do uncaptured mouse clicks go?[/center][/font][hr]

[Matt_in_STL]

45. Cool. Good luck winning an election with 29% of the electorate.

You absolutely need Independents to win an election. If you write them off and show them this attitude, you will not have the votes to win. Well, unless you reach out to your Republican base I guess (George W. voters).

[muntrv]

2. Get rid of closed primaries and Sanders would have more votes.

[asuhornets]

14. What about caucuses? n/t

[SheilaT]

15. Sanders did very well in the open caucuses.

[asuhornets]

18. But you don't want to do away with those.....HUH? n/t

[AgingAmerican]

19. Because they better reflect the open general

[asuhornets]

21. YEA RIGHT!!!!

Caucuses are the most undemocratic of them all.. But it helps Sanders--so there..

[AgingAmerican]

24. We are seeing the consequences

She barely holds onto a thread against Trump and loses in swing states

[asuhornets]

25. There is no way in the world Trumps beats Hillary Clinton--not going to happen...

Now against Sanders he would have a chance..

[AgingAmerican]

27. He already beats her in swing states

[asuhornets]

29. Michigan? That's it. n/t

[Fawke Em]

41. He's beating her in Ohio.

And they're tied in Pennsylvania and Florida.

[asuhornets]

43. those polls are meaningless now..n/t

[Blue_Adept]

34. A caucus would have disenfranchised me

as I would not have been able to attend. And that's one less vote for Bernie.

[SheilaT]

30. Did I say I wanted to do away with them?

You might want to pay closer attention to who posts what here.

Actually, I'm inclined to think open primaries and caucuses are the way to go. After all, there are states that register voters without registering by party, and no one seems to have a lot of problem with them. In those states the voters simply vote in whichever primary they prefer to vote in.

But voters ought to pay attention to how their particular state does things: open or closed, primary or caucus. However, at least 80% of voters haven't much of a clue about how any of these things work.

[BeyondGeography]

3. Sanders is a chump

Should have joined the Democratic Party a long time ago. Then he complains about the rules and that meanie DWS.

[onehandle]

20. He's no chump.

He totally played the Democratic Party and got tens of millions of dollars of free promotion.

He's no Trump, but he scammed us but good.

[BeyondGeography]

22. Now he's convinced he woulda, coulda and shoulda won

Chump.

[Fawke Em]

44. At least he's not under and FBI investigation.

[NCTraveler]

4. Hey, outside of primaries I stay registered as an independent.

Damn near straight ticket dem voter.

I will say there is a clear lack of understanding as to how scattered independents are. I mean some real foolish thoughts.

[Autumn]

5. I was a yellow dog democrat for over 40 years out of choice or fear, I droppped

the democratic affiliation last year. Call me a chump if it make you feel better, I will be the better person and refrain from calling you an idiot.

[arcane1]

6. The real chumps are the ones who assume a "D" is the same thing as a liberal n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

8. The real chumps are those who think being a Democrat is a matter of where you put a check mark.

[KPN]

10. Chumps? I dunno. Seems to me there are many reasons

a person might not register as Dem or Repug. I suspect that there are many Inedependents who chose that because, as you said, they don't see the Democratic Party actually fighting for the people they do. But that doesn't make them chumps. In my mind, it makes them genuine to their own values. Hard to criticize that.

Now the "system" or "establishment" may see them as chumps (and actually works to fulfill that prophecy), but that also hardly makes them chumps.

But I do agree with your key statement: "Meanwhile, Democrats themselves are busy nominating the weaker candidate".

[ProfessorPlum]

12. but when a candidate does appear that they might like to support

they can't do a thing about it.

[KPN]

17. True in many States. But ...,

that's not Independents being chumps, it's the Parties subverting the peoples' will -- in order to preserve the Party hierarchy.

[Go Vols]

23. exactly

Hillary can "evolve" on an issue in week or so and its all good.
But if an Indy "evolved" and wanted to vote D,they wouldn't be able to do so in a lot of states .

[casperthegm]

11. Perhaps it is the Democratic party that is shooting itself in the foot?

The party is down to 29% of all voters. Independent voters have grown and young voters are there for the party to try to entice. So you'd think the Democratic party would try to appeal all to of them them, right?

Maybe not; closed primaries and there are numerous instances of young voters being referred to as naive and just wanting "free stuff."

Hey, it's up to the DNC to decide how they want to play the game. It's their party, their rules to set. Short term, it gets them the candidate they want. Long term it cuts themselves off at the legs, losing a large part of their future as they dismiss young voters and independent voters.

There have also been comments to the effect of "if you don't like it, go form your own party." It's an interesting approach, considering how the party has continued to decline in % of voters, and it wouldn't surprise me to see a party with true progressive values rise up. A party that doesn't embrace fracking, doesn't vote to invade Iraq, doesn't support no fly zones, one that opposes trade deals that send our jobs overseas, one that does support reinstating Glass Steagall, supports healthcare for all, and supports free college for all.

So yeah, maybe the party is shooting itself in the foot be excluding many potential voters and turning its back on progressive values.

[ProfessorPlum]

13. I think the party is definitely being extremely stupid about trying to build its ranks

But then, it would have to actually do something that appealed to younger voters. And they can't have that happen.

[Orsino]

26. Parties suck.

They can never persuade everyone to join.

[Maedhros]

28. I refused to be strong-armed into joining a Party that despises me, yet demands my vote.

The problem here is with the Party, not the Independent voters.

[tonyt53]

31. Bernie has attracted the naive

Most of his supporters have never participated in our democracy by voting, or even registering to vote even though they could have. That doesn't mean he has brought on new voters, it means he is speaking a language to the naive that will not question him on how exactly he would get things done. The GOP has lots of ammo to use on Bernie. They have used all they have on HRC and yet she is still winning. Bernie like to have his rallies at college campuses. I remember McGovern doing the very same thing and look what that got us - an ass kicking from Nixon. We supported a lesser candidate in 1972 and let the stronger candidate, Humphrey, slide by.

[farleftlib]

37. I'm a middle aged woman

Usually considered a natural part of HRC's base. I've voted D since 1980. I'm not naïve and I don't
want "free stuff" but HRC is ballot box poison and I'm not alone in believing that. For the first time
in this country's history, a candidate for the highest office in the land is under an FBI investigation, for
of all things, endangering national security by using an unsecured server. The GOP will howl about
that nonstop and they will be right in doing so.

Nice talking points, btw.

[frylock]

32. Your Party currently enjoys a membership rate of around 30% and is shrinking.

Who is the chump, again?

[ProfessorPlum]

36. tell me how the independents are going to get someone with Sanders' values into the White House

I'd love to know.

And "my party" is the party of DU. What is your party?

[frylock]

38. My party is NPP.

No Party Preference, aka independent.

[basselope]

39. They can take the lesson learned.

Which is that Sanders (or one who follows him) doesn't HAVE TO play in the democratic sandbox.

[rock]

40. I offer this in support of your thesis

Thinks about all of the elected politicians: how many are Democrats or Republicans? All but a handful. Because unity in a party strengthens the members. If so for the Elected, so fo the Electors. You're right and you reasoning is right.