2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumIf Hillary loses to trump, it's all on her and her campaign. It won't be my fault
or the fault of Bernie's supporters or Bernie. And the preemptive blaming of Bernie supporters for a potential loss, all the while proclaimimg that she'll wipe him off the map, is bullshit.
If Hillary loses it's because of her choices and her judgment.
She chose to make those speeches while knowing she was likely to run.
She chose to set up a private server in her basement.
CorkySt.Clair
(1,507 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,284 posts)glad that's settled.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)but if Hillary loses to Trump, hang around for all the finger pointing, tears, rage, bitterness, and blaming of Sanders supporters.
It WILL happen.
Some here are still wailing an gnashing their teeth at Nader for Gore's loss in 2000.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)to start the Nader wailing. I've repeatedly said it isn't my fault, either. Point your fingers at Hillary and the DNC.
None of them have bothered to wonder if she has a significant portion of Democrats that don't want to vote for her how on earth they think she will fare against Independents and Republicans.
I've asked before: Will Hillary Clinton make up for the lost Democrats (and absent enthusiasm) with Independents and cross-over Republicans?
I get *crickets* *crickets* *crickets*
"Beating" Bernie is the absolute least of her campaign's worries. Shaming and fear mongering 'recalcitrant' Bernie supporters into voting for her is what they have left, and strong-minded people are the ones that are ardent Bernie supporters to begin with, i.e. people with whom such tactics are not effective.
If I wasn't a Democrat, I wouldn't be pointing this out. I'd just keep my mouth shut and watch it implode. Since I am a Democrat, I point this out because our party is at stake. Heading into the general election with a candidate getting interviewed by the FBI and possibly being indicted, the Clinton Foundation arms-for-donations shady business and assorted other unsavory dealings should give long-term Democrats pause.
But it doesn't. Every Democrat gets to suffer through this general election if she is the nominee, and you know what? I *WILL* be the one to say I told you so, because I have said this for months. The minute she is the nominee it won't just be the boom dropping - it will be the whole fucking Titanic, and she will take us all with her.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)jehop61
(1,735 posts)Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)That's alright though. I live in a blue state but I've recently wondered if enough people are as fed up as I am, might we go purple or even red? I don't think so but a line has to be drawn somewhere.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Strong, cogent arguments have been made to the contrary repeatedly by many of us. They just haven't listened. I will be the first to say "I told you so" to anybody that even starts their "it's your fault" bullshit.
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)I agree, wholeheartedly.
However, we will get the shit sandwich - to which I will opine "the bread is fantastic".
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)...will be told in no uncertain terms what I think of that sort of steaming load.
litlbilly
(2,227 posts)asuhornets
(2,405 posts)With the help of Bernie supporters...
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Grabs notepad. "Don't blame anonymous internet poster cali for the GE."
I'm thinking she will kick Trumps ass.
She must think HRC supporters are like Bernie's: if something goes wrong, look for someone to blame.
shawn703
(2,702 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)... Bill made to Clyburn 8 years ago? And that recollection somehow fits into this conversation?
shawn703
(2,702 posts)That Bill isn't a HRC supporter? Or that he wasn't blaming others for her failed campaign?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)2008, not 2016. Primary, not GE. Bill Clinton, not the DU fan base.
There's nothing about your post that is relevant to the conversation other than it reminded you of sumpin.
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)My father has always had almost zero comprehension of simile and metaphor. Comparing one thing to another has always been completely useless, because the very concept of comparison requires a difference between the things being compared.
Dunno if Mr. Buzz Clik has the same problem, but I wouldn't rule it out...
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)It's about Bill Clinton apparently directly blaming Clyburn for his wife's failure to win the South Carolina Democratic primary.
Seems to be exceptionally relevant to any discussing about people wrongly scapegoating others for politicians' failures.
And even more relevant to a campaign involving Hillary Clinton as a candidate, since that's the exact subject of the article.
But whatever. Maybe the concept of relevance is different for you than it is for most people.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Also adding it to the non-existent spreadsheet I've been told I'm in possession of.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)And I will have Zero sympathy for them when it happens.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Better yet, when Hillary beats Trump, whose fault is it?
merrily
(45,251 posts)losing ground in head to head polls against Trump, the candidate currently touted on the first page as being much less popular than lice, have panicked a segment of DU.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1935313
... but we know who they will blame it all on: Bernie Sanders.
"Because he could think of no one but himself."
(which would be exactly the opposite of what Bernie DID do, i.e. he could think of no one but The People and his supporters.)
But all is not lost, cali. Because all is not over yet. We have 9 states to go, and two of them come due tonight. WV and NE.
Like I said: It ain't over till it's over! Proceed, Bernie!!!!>>>>>>>>>
CentralCoaster
(1,163 posts)K/R
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Talk about ego ... sheesh!
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Ego...on a discussion board? But at least there was a 7 word rebuttal. Usually it's under 5 words. Intellectually vacuous combined with hubris.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)You have to put in an effort first. Whining on the internet isn't an effort.
cali
(114,904 posts)The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)it is pretty clear you are a full time internet poster.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)to lose to Trump.
We warned them that Hillary could not defeat Trump. Many of the people that came out to support Sanders did so to fight the corruption of the Establishment system that sees the DNC clearly supporting Clinton and will not participate in the corrupt system in spite of the demands of the Establishment. It's the hubris of the Establishment that they think they can demand instead of "win over" the Sanders supporters.
Those that didn't heed the warnings that Hillary would lose to Trump need look no further than the mirror for the responsibility of such a lose.
kstewart33
(6,551 posts)Puglover
(16,380 posts)I HOPE she doesn't lose. I think there is a very real possibility she might.
Although I post very little here, if the unthinkable happens I will NEVER engage with the "it's Bernies supporters fault crowd."
I will have four words and four words only.
"I told you so."
And on edit I really do not want to ever have to say that.
onenote
(42,383 posts)basic thing to prevent that: voting for the Democratic party nominee.
That means blame will fall on the repubs that vote for Trump or that don't vote for anyone or vote third party.
That means blame will fall on the independents that vote for Trump or that don't for anyone or vote third party.
Than means blame will fall on the Democrats that vote for Trump or that don't vote for anyone or vote third party.
All will equally share the blame if Trump becomes president.
tonyt53
(5,737 posts)But it falls on deaf ears of Bernie-ites. They want no responsibility. That is why most have never bothered to register or vote even though they could have in the past. They want free stuff, without having to work for it. No responsibility.
KPN
(15,587 posts)Party record the past 35 years. As the Repugs move further and further to the right, so does leadership in the Democratic Party/DNC as well as its membership.
The GOP will be the Party of Ted Cruz and the Tea Partiers in the future. Rathger than move right toward them, the Democratic Party needs to move in the opposite direction.
onenote
(42,383 posts)Word salad.
KPN
(15,587 posts)libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Oh, and Talking Points for HRC are not considered substance. And as to reason? Not.
KPN
(15,587 posts)earns loyalty by representing its members. It might get it regardless for a while -- as people are generally reasonable, understanding, realistic and forgiving. But it should not and won't be successful taking that for granted, i.e., depending on unearned loyalty. That simply has its limits in every relationship.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)if there is an unappealing candidate and voters don't vote for them?
If Hillary Clinton can't get cross-over Republican votes, that's Hillary's fault. President Obama got some, Bill got a bunch of them.
If Hillary Clinton can't get Independent votes, that's Hillary's fault. President Obama got some, Bill got a bunch of them.
If Hillary Clinton can't get Democratic votes, that's Hillary's fault.
Blaming voters who don't vote for a candidate is like blaming buyers because they didn't buy new Coke. Was it the fault of the buyers because they didn't buy it, or was there another problem that didn't involve, marketing, advertising and hype?
You can market, advertise and outreach all day long, but if your product is unsuccessful, it might just be the product.
panader0
(25,816 posts)She is an unappealing candidate. My girlfriend, who voted for Obama twice, will not vote for her.
I don't know what I'll do at this point. I'm still feeling the Bern.
"If your product is unsuccessful, it just might be the product."
onenote
(42,383 posts)Not really. In your example, not buying new Coke doesn't result in everyone being forced to drink arsenic.
But not stopping Trump....that's allowing a lethal disease to spread. One that threatens the well being of the very people that the Democratic party historically has made it a priority to protect: religious and ethnic minorities, the disabled, women, and (more recently) gays.
A Little Weird
(1,754 posts)Can you blame people for choosing to not drink either?
onenote
(42,383 posts)But Hispanics prefer Clinton over Trump by more than 65 points, women prefer Clinton over Trump by more than 25 points, African Americans prefer Clinton over Trump by 70 points. I don't have numbers at hand, but i suspect that the percentages of Muslims that prefer Clinton over Trump, the percentage of disabled people who prefer Clinton over Trump, the percentage of gay and lesbian people that prefer Clinton over Trump are comparable astronomical.
So it would seem that while you see the choice as being between arsenic and drain cleaner, the groups that historically have been at the heart of the Democratic party don't.
Which suggests a certain lack of empathy on your part.
A Little Weird
(1,754 posts)Just as I prefer arsenic over drain cleaner. But we will be fucked with either one of them.
onenote
(42,383 posts)But you aren't everyone.
For example, Clinton has a plus 29 percent favorability rating with African American voters.
A Little Weird
(1,754 posts)You're not everyone either. . . are you??
onenote
(42,383 posts)You are.
A Little Weird
(1,754 posts)"We" will be fucked. I do get to have an opinion even if you don't share it.
lostnfound
(16,139 posts)I think a $3 Milllion wedding shows a lack of empathy personally but what do I know. Nothing. Which is why I am unsure that I am qualified to vote in November. You know, low income people are turning out to vote for Trump. Where's your empathy for them? Hahaha, in case you don't get that I'm being facetious.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)no matter how unpalatable the alternative is, it might be the product.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...who thought that nominating a deeply flawed candidate with the highest disapproval and untrustworthy numbers for a presidential candidate in modern history, a baggage car full of skeletons, under investigation by the FBI, that will motivate Republicans to crawl through glass and thorns just to vote AGAINST her...... those who thought she would be a good candidate to run against the Republicans, yes, they will have to shoulder the blame.
Rass
(112 posts)It is good for you. Full of vitamins and minerals. Trust us.
Vogon_Glory
(9,086 posts)Atta girl! Maureen Dowd and "Saint Ralph" Nader said the same thing in 2000. And eight years of Buckaroo Bush, two wars, packed federal courts and a devastating recession proved that there was no difference between the Democrats and the Republicans.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Sorry, but I have standards.
/bye.
Vogon_Glory
(9,086 posts)KPN
(15,587 posts)A candidate wins or loses based on his/her own merits. A Party earns loyalty based on how it treats and defends the views of its members.
dubyadiprecession
(5,625 posts)isn't he winning?
PDittie
(8,322 posts)They've been doing that for 16 years. Why stop now?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)when they've already set the groundwork to do exactly that. I guess we're back to being completely irrelevant... for now.
beachbumbob
(9,263 posts)Rationalize any way you want but you will be MORE responsible than those who voted for trump
PDittie
(8,322 posts)to more than 50% of all voting age Americans, mostl of whom are also poor and minority. In other words, the people who would be most damaged by a Trump presidency. Almost all of whom are very unlikely to be on DU at any time, ever.
So why aren't you blaming them? Better question: why aren't you out registering those folks to vote instead of flinging childish insults not grounded in reality at people on the internet who don't support your candidate?
lostnfound
(16,139 posts)Go vote for trump in movement than stay home? They'd be doing their patriotic duty by doing so?
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]"Everybody is just on their feet screaming 'Kill Kill Kill'! This is -hockey- Conservative values!"[/center][/font][hr]
jamese777
(546 posts)I won't blame Bernie supporters and if Bernie loses, I won't blame Hillary supporters. It is the job of a campaign to win over primary election opponent supporters.
synergie
(1,901 posts)Punkingal
(9,522 posts)Shadowflash
(1,536 posts)Why are we expected to vote for a candidate most of us have no say in choosing because progressives are locked out of closed primaries?
If no one was interested in our votes then, Why should they care about our votes in the GE? All I keep hearing is how strong HRC is and how she doesn't need the Sanders supporter's votes. Well, the HRC supporter's message came through loud and clear. They don't need our input.
THEY nominated her, if she loses, it's on them.
jamese777
(546 posts)If Senator Sanders loses the Democratic nomination, its on his supporters? I don't think so.
By the same token, some Sanders backers say that they won't support Hillary Clinton in the general election which is tantamount to supporting Donald Trump and the right wing agenda. Trump has already promised another Antonin Scalia on the Supreme Court.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)and the vast majority of his supporters will vote against Trump in November.
ablamj
(333 posts)For Jill Stein or Bernie Sanders (write-in)
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)that is quite telling.
ablamj
(333 posts)for ourselves.This is not about the man; it's about the ideals he stands for.
onenote
(42,383 posts)A rather important quality for a President to have.
I should add, that I don't think he does lack leadership qualities and that the great majority of his supporters will in fact follow his lead in the General.
ablamj
(333 posts)his leadership qualities. He has already stated that we are free to do as we wish if he doesn't get the nomination and I think the vast majority will not vote for Hillary.
TheKentuckian
(24,949 posts)Clinton doesn't even have the "leadership" to get me to vote for her much less anyone else.
If any can command your vote it has absolutely nothing to do with their leadership skills but rather your own commitment to be not just a follower but an automaton, a robot that will perform as programmed.
I think your premise is wrong but it is insightful, it informs of perspective.
TheKentuckian
(24,949 posts)to vote for and I think it is beyond bizarre that about anyone thinks differently.
Support for a candidate should not be conflated with fealty to them.
There isn't enough respect in the whole world for some man I don't even know to control my vote, if you "respect" anyone in such a fashion it says a lot about who you are and I don't think it says anything positive.
If you "respect" Clinton enough to be her vessel, neigh unto a golem that is pitiful and a bug rather a feature.
kstewart33
(6,551 posts)Those who voted for him and those who stayed home and allowed the scumbag to win.
Bleacher Creature
(11,237 posts)The only thing I would add would be people who allow him to win not only by staying home, but also wasting their vote on a spoiler candidate.
anotherproletariat
(1,446 posts)beaglelover
(3,441 posts)SheilaT
(23,156 posts)to put the blame if she loses the GE on those of us who don't support her in the first place. We've been telling them for a long time that the independents matter, and they need to understand she can't win without their support. Instead, they mock Bernie's wins in states with open primaries or caucuses, and have done essentially nothing to persuade any of us that she supports any of the positions that Bernie supports.
So if she loses, it will be her fault, her campaign's fault, not the fault of those she alienated.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)This one sums it up for me.
They have no answers. . . They are fighting like mad to elect a Republican and they can't own it.
bvf
(6,604 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Ignore, Kill the Messenger, Trot out 3 word meaningless declaratives.
Notice, Refute is not in the standard talking point recipe. Why? It would require the uncomfortable position of .... "Who you going to believe, me or your lying eyes."
Someone needs to get the Clinton Foundation on there. It's probably the biggest boondoggle of all.
Renew Deal
(81,803 posts)if you don't do your part
CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)... and setting us up for the blame.
And, if for some reason, she stays unindicted, and wins the nomination and the Presidency, we'll be implored to give her time and go easy on her when she begins to govern like the neocon corporatist she is.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)We should be hitting the big progressive payout with President Obama very soon. I just hope our reward isn't a bunch of corporatist trade bills that ship more jobs to Bangladesh.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Big margin, both chambers, we get a couple of years of work done. Slim margin, neither chamber, well, it could be worse. But the bigger the better. That's why there's so much pressure on Bernie basically.
creeksneakers2
(7,468 posts)I agree the Bernie or bust people won't be the entire cause of it.
When the Nader fiasco is brought up, the people who voted for him do nothing but point fingers. I've been trying for years to get one to just answer one question. Knowing what we know now, was your decision to vote for Ralph the right decision?
If the same thing happens, I hope Bernie or bust people will answer that question.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)http://m.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/6/1260721/-The-Nader-Myth
Gore lost his own home state. Plus he refused to have Bill Clinton campaign for him at all, even in Arkansas, and lost there too.
Gore is entirely to blame. As will Hillary Clinton.
creeksneakers2
(7,468 posts)What about my question? My post wasn't about blaming Nader voters or Bernie or busters.
Stuckinthebush
(10,817 posts)Feel better?
JEB
(4,748 posts)No wonder people looked elsewhere for representation. Hillary has already dismissed the Sanders supporters. I guess she plans to get enough Pukes discontented with Trump. She has a track record of faulty decisions.
senz
(11,945 posts)She's a free agent; no one forced her to do the things she did.
dana_b
(11,546 posts)If she can't get people's votes, then it is her fault. So many are done with the lesser of two evils. DONE!
all american girl
(1,788 posts)I don't blame Hillary voters, it's on Bernie. So of course the same would be true if she loses to Trump. I'm not sure why Bernie supporters always need to do this. The primary will be done in just over a month...we will have our person. If it's Bernie, and it's through the SD's, he would have a hard road getting Hillary voters to vote for him, but whoever wins through votes and delegates, I will gladly stand with that person.
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)It will probably be because of some terrorist incident just before the polls. That's all it takes to frighten people into voting for Trump.
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)No one in the Sanders camp can be blamed. But they will blame everyone, even "Birdie."
And yet, they seem to act like they don't need Bernie or his followers.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Its also on the DNC. They annointed the most corrupt, purchased, conservative, pro-war, anti-worker, pro-corporate person to be our nominee. They wanted her to be our only choice. B*stards.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)And no, it's not an excuse. It's a fact. And he did upset Her Turn timeline and unleashed a creditiable Underdog performance.
But I'm with the other Bernie supporters here...the nomination may not happen, but a new group of voters have been given a voice, plus some of older voters a chance to vote without clothespins.
Now he is pretty well-known to at least those who follow politics. The next week will be interesting. And how the downticket goes...there are a number of Bernie-type candidates sticking toes in the political water. And if DWS goes down to Canova...well, can't say I'd be disappointed. In fact, I'd be thrilled. Let her experience the fate she's enabled, to say the least, on other Democrats and the Democratic Party as a whole. Dismal results under her "leadership".
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)Not voting against Republicans is for rubes.
themaguffin
(3,805 posts)do not vote for the Democratic candidate are voting the GOP candidate. We've learned that lesson, or so I thought.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Just another website with chatter