2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumPolls: Trump Closing In On Hillary
Not good. She is an incredibly weak candidate.
CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)Clinton is so scripted and rigid. She's is not prepared to handle Trump, who will be lobbing grenades at her from all directions. She's had it sooooo easy with Bernie.
Trump went after her and Bill's sex life this week. Clinton's response was to hide and not respond. Not a winning strategy.
I worry about her in a debate with Trump. She's actually an amazing debater when she's able to stay on script, word for word. But when she goes off script, she runs off the rails. Bernie caught her off guard, on very minor points and she practically blew a gasket. When Bernie went after her on her Wall Street contributions and how they would impact her behavior toward the banks--she spewed some nonsense about 9/11! A horrible moment for her.
Trump will throw down so many comments and zingers at her. I have absolutely no faith that she'll be prepared for it, or that she'll be able to respond effectively. She won't get away with soundbytes on her email server, Libya, her Iraq War vote, her Wall Street big money connections--when it comes to Trump. He won't pull any punches, and he also won't allow her to get away with canned non-responses.
Bernie would be the better candidate against Trump. Oh, what a great campaign that would be. Bernie is the perfect candidate to take on Trump.
kaleckim
(651 posts)Where the American public on the whole is far more supportive of the most progressive candidate in the race than the Democratic Party.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and foreign press, warned of this, months ago. I said my piece months ago. It is what it is, you cannot reason with partisans, (on either side)
George II
(67,782 posts)kaleckim
(651 posts)The American people don't agree. They don't, the polls are overwhelmingly clear on that. That is YOUR opinion, but you don't get to invent your own reality.
George II
(67,782 posts)...have voted for Clinton than Trump.
These questionable attacks on Clinton will NOT win the nomination for anyone than Clinton.
So, what's your point? What's your objective?
Loudestlib
(980 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)...., to use your insulting characterization, "sparky".
Loudestlib
(980 posts)Lots of independents will not vote for Hillary in the GE. Some of them will vote for Trump if the choice is Trump or Clinton.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)it is in the same poll sparky.
15 percent to be exact.
JudyM
(29,201 posts)kaleckim
(651 posts)Yes, more Democrats (especially in the former Confederacy) have voted for a person with historically bad net favorables, someone that is not trusted, someone that polls far worse than the other guy and is far more beatable. That was the point of the video too, which you probably avoided.
These "attacks" aren't questionable either, just because you don't want to acknowledge this situation for what it is. The polls show that she is a horrible candidate, and if anything goes wrong (and lots of things with her can), she's in deep trouble. The polls aren't questionable, you sticking your head in the sand and making this silly argument is questionable.
"So, what's your point?"
See above.
Actor
(626 posts)the election with the hope of Trump winning.
kaleckim
(651 posts)in ways that affirms your simplistic reading of the situation, cause that doesn't describe most people like myself or objective reality. It isn't my fault that she is such a horrible candidate and her supporters ignored the reality that they are now being forced to deal with.
Actor
(626 posts)and the teaparty take over our entire country, or you are not.
Which is it?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)in case you missed the memo, the vote is a private affair.
Not playing your game. The fact is that both candidates represent a reduction in my living standards and they are both horrible, just in different ways. You chose a horrible candidate in this election, someone unwilling to change an inequitable and corrupt system leading us to ecological collapse, and she's corrupt. You saying that I must support Trump, secretly or otherwise, is simplistic and shows you aren't making sense of the changes underway in the country.
By the way, I live in Illinois. If that corrupt politician wins the nomination, which is likely, me not supporting a reduction in my own living standards by supporting her will have no impact. So, even if you could make a reason why I should vote for her (as opposed to voting against Trump), it doesn't apply to me, it would apply to people in swing states. So peddle that crap somewhere else.
Logical
(22,457 posts)silvershadow
(10,336 posts)beaglelover
(3,460 posts)anotherproletariat
(1,446 posts)After all, the writing has been on the wall for quite a while.
timmymoff
(1,947 posts)instead of the continued enrichment of herself. I hope he doesn't hold his breath waiting I tried to hold my breath waiting on the transcripts, but that has to be two months or more now.
kaleckim
(651 posts)and for what reason? She's a horrible candidate and is far more beatable than he is. If independents were allowed to vote freely in your party's primary, she'd be toast. He should stick around for multiple reasons, one of them being that she's under investigation and could be indicted. Maybe, if she's behind bars, some Democrats will be open to not supporting her. Nothing's assured though. LOL!
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)The GOP will not win the WH in 2016 courtesy of Mrs. Clinton.
kaleckim
(651 posts)but the American public doesn't agree. They don't seem to like either, but she is entirely beatable, and she could lose to the most unpopular major party candidate in polling history. She's the second most, which says tons about the state of our political system.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)But alas you know that, and I'm done.
kaleckim
(651 posts)It's about what the polls and the public are saying. You can say he is weak, but there are no facts to back up that he is weaker than she or Trump are. None.
liberalnarb
(4,532 posts)He's also the only candidate in the race who is like more than disliked. What tf are you talking about.
kaleckim
(651 posts)to harm their candidate. They don't seem to fully realize how much things have changed. It isn't 1993, they can't just brush the left aside, mock the left, and think it will fall in line, that there'll be no consequences. They're in for a rude awakening, and none of them seem to be making sense of the mood of the country or why people so strongly supported Sanders in the first place. They keep on repeating talking points that are now 25 years old and don't seem to want to break out of their little mental bubbles. Well, pop.
Response to anotherproletariat (Reply #6)
artislife This message was self-deleted by its author.
PufPuf23
(8,755 posts)Hillary Clinton will be better informed but Trump may well cause her to lose composure.
Clinton is a highly risky Democratic candidate against Trump.
One has to wonder what the pair might say to each other in private now given their past acquaintance.
summerschild
(725 posts)GOP has been digging for 25 years. No, they're not going to like any Democratic candidate, but the Clintons - well, the GOP has got a special hate for them and they've been petting it for YEARS.
The elite of the Democratic Party knew that - have always known it - yet they chose to start out with this mountain of bullChitt facing them.
KingFlorez
(12,689 posts)and then stomp all over him before throwing him off a cliff. End of story.
well reality be damned. I can show poll after poll that she is in trouble, is a far weaker candidate than Sanders versus Trump, but you got that claim there. Say, if your claims can just change the reality we inhabit (end of story), can you say something definitive about me winning the lotto? Please wait a few hours for me to buy a ticket, then say the comment, then I'll scratch the winning numbers. If it all works, and I do have faith in you, I'll throw some of the winning proceeds your way. Deal?
Response to kaleckim (Reply #25)
artislife This message was self-deleted by its author.
jzodda
(2,124 posts)He has been stating over at 538 that none of these early polls mean squat. He says he doesn't take them seriously. What pollster do I trust? Nate Silver who was (among) the most accurate last cycle.
The same Nate Silver that admits he was insanely wrong on Trump? The same Nate Silver that now admits that he did in fact have a bias in how he aggregated his data (see the video below)? The same Nate Silver that has a proven bias in favor of Clinton (see the link below, have tons more)?
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/04/is-538-in-the-bag-for-hillary/
Hatlem claims that in 18 of 21 states outside the South, Silvers predictions have a pro-Clinton bias of 12.5%. He bases his analysis from what polls predicted, on what 538 forecasted, and on the results from those primaries. Silver has been averaging polls to predict primary outcomes and he has also been mapping polls and 538s predictions to track over time how well candidates are gathering the necessary delegates to capture the nomination. Significantly, Hatlem does something Silver doesnt do: admit his own biasfor Sanders. He writes that he has been wrong in twelve of eighteen states since Super Tuesday because his predictions had a pro-Clinton bias of 7%. In other words, he undersold Sanders a bit just to be safe in his voting forecasts.
Or this from TYT (watch it and respond):
"Nate Silver's Bias Exposed"
jzodda
(2,124 posts)This is what Nate tweeted yesterday:
"For f--k's sake, America. You're going to make go on a rant about general election polls -- in May?" the editor in chief of FiveThirtyEight wrote as part of a tweetstorm on Tuesday.
Silver said Clinton has an about 6 percent lead over Trump nationally, but cautioned: "It's early. Trump could win. Also, he could lose in a landslide." He added that Trump's presumptive nomination and Clinton's ongoing battle with Bernie Sanders could be having an effect "We'll know more in June."
The statistician said he wouldn't have polls of each state for "a few months."
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/nate-silver-trump-clinton-polls-223015#ixzz48N1yTkh3
I never pay attention to these early polls. In 1980 Carter had a 10 point lead at this point. In 1988 Dukakis was polling well in the spring. In 2000 they had GW winning by 10+ points and he lost the vote.
As far as bias its an interesting video. thanks for the link. My own take is that this is all media driven. They need a horse race and they will find any way to make sure it exists.
kaleckim
(651 posts)There is a strong statistical evidence that polls this close to the election closely align with the final tally, and he knows that. I'd love to hear his logic though, since his career is based on polling elections that won't happen for months in advance. If polling now doesn't matter at all, then which polls that he conducts has any worth? Will he stop doing polls about elections beyond a certain point? You can't really buy that argument.
AntiBank
(1,339 posts)amborin
(16,631 posts)JonathanRackham
(1,604 posts)floriduck
(2,262 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)She never thought her past would catch up with her?
scscholar
(2,902 posts)HRC!
kaleckim
(651 posts)you're welcome to look at actual facts, is that okay in Clintonland? Are her horrible favorables and the fact that she isn't trusted no worry as well? My god, you people are logically unreachable.
Response to kaleckim (Reply #40)
artislife This message was self-deleted by its author.
kaleckim
(651 posts)The Democrats have chosen a horrible candidate and she is now not only neck and neck nationally, she is essentially tied in two swing states, and close to tied in another. You people are logically unreachable. You really are closed off mentally, which is why you're in this horrible position.
Dem2
(8,166 posts)Do you have an alternative?
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)kaleckim
(651 posts)Where do you people get this stuff? Do you not feel a little guilty about lying so damn much? Maybe SOME Sanders supporters do (and I wouldn't trust you to make sense of why in a mature and well thought out manner), but some Clinton supporters would support him if Sanders was the nominee.
runaway hero
(835 posts)by 3 to 5 points. She is weak, not that weak. There was going to be no blowout of Trump like some where hoping.
I have respect for HRC to run in the first place, unlike Warren who engages in childish games on twitter with Trump.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)Trump just won his party's nomination. Hillary is still running against Sanders. She has to fight on two fronts. Let's see what happens when she's the nominee and Democrats give their full attention to defeating Trump.
Logical
(22,457 posts)kaleckim
(651 posts)Nope, the evidence shows that generally, people's opinions don't radically change this late in the game. She is not liked (historically bad, she's lucky she's running against the only person more disliked and if the Republicans pick someone else, she's in deep trouble), not trusted, is corrupt and has a ton of skeletons in her closet. If ANYTHING goes wrong between now and the election, look out. Why the Democrats chose her, as weak of a candidate as they could find, says a lot about what they've become. YOU might like her, the country doesn't, and the polls are clear (and have been for a long time).
Demsrule86
(68,469 posts)We won't forget your role in helping Trump...well you will be out with a month ...so then we can move on. I hope I never see your face again.The Math is th math...you are now participating in a zombie primary. We have plenty of time to turn it around.
kaleckim
(651 posts)is the weakest candidate your party could have chosen, horrible favorables, untrusted, polls much worse versus Trump (tied, or nearly tied now in key swing states, huge net negative favorables in many of them too), hawkish, center-right record on economic issues, corrupt. Horrible, weak, candidate. The Democrats like you that chose her have revealed yourself, you're little better or different than the snakes on the right. You are just as important in maintaining this corrupt and inequitable system and I'd be willing to bet that you're older. Your generation was handed a country in far better shape than the one you're handing over. Everything (the economy, infrastructure, the environment, public education, poor communities) has gotten worse under your watch. You want to mock people that want to at least try to start cleaning up the mess you've created. Sadly, there were more people like Hillary Clinton in your generation than there were Bernie Sanders, and younger people are utterly screwed now because of it. Thank god Sanders came along, not only did he show how popular the left's ideas are, he also has exposed so many people in the Democratic Party and the media.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)it could never, ever be the candidate the Dems are choosing.