All the MISERABLE Whining About Independents In WV Proves One Thing

[berni_mccoy]

Hillary can't beat Trump. If she can't win the independent vote and she loses it by the margins she is losing by in primaries, then she can't beat trump. This is reinforced by the swing state polls that show her losing to trump. She loses independents by double digits where Sanders wins them by bigger margins.

Brock-O'Keefe is an idiot to be using this as an excuse for losing the May primaries like West Virginia. Hillary's own bullshit is costing her. She is failing all on her own.

[JoePhilly]

1. She's kicking Bernie's butt ... and Trump is next.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. Yeah, sure great job in WV.

Keep winning like that in November and watch what happens.

[Hortensis]

22. 1. Bernie conservatives plan to vote TRUMP in November.

That's a huge problem when primary wins depend on crossover conservative votes. Over 1/3 of SANDERS voters when exit-polled said if SANDERS were running in November they'd vote for Trump.

This has been a pattern in a bunch of states and is only one of the indicators that Bernie's delegate count is dangerously misleading and he is far weaker than most realize.

2. Further, Nebraska just now held a nonbinding primary, a few weeks after it held a binding caucus, giving us a great chance to see how type affects results.

Caucus: Bernie won the small-turnout caucus by a substantial margin.
Primary: Hillary is winning by a large margin, though still counting.
3-4 times as many voters are participating even though nonbinding (!)

This is a second big indicator suggesting that Bernie's delegate count is very misleading and that Democrats want Clinton by a far larger majority than the primary results already suggest.

Hillary's support among fellow Democrats is significantly larger than the delegate count suggests.

[Fawke Em]

37. Only if she's the nominee.

What part of that don't you guys get?

You keep thinking something that's not in evidence.

[Hortensis]

47. FAR more Democrats want Hillary than the skewed

delegate counts suggest. She will be our nominee, as it turns out, so democracy is served in spite of systemic problems.

States really need to change from caucuses to primaries. Caucuses are extremely undemocratic and easily manipulated -- by local power "establishments," not just by conservative infiltrators.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

59. You must meet a really strange subset of democrats. not one I know

likes her or wants to vote for her.

I had a little get together on Sunday. All nice people, all savvy, all well read. It was such a beautiful day that we sat outside, imbibed, drank, and eventually turned to politics. One was a trumpette, although she had worries about him. Every single other person was a self described Democrat and not one was willing to vote Hillary. The consensus was she was a liar, a cheat, untrustworthy, self-dealing, and impossible to support. That is six couples who come from a variety of age and educational backgrounds.

I have witnessed similar results and feelings elsewhere. Even in Illinois, it is really hard to find a Democrat who supports her.

[Hortensis]

65. Okay. Chair, it sounded very pleasant until you

started describing their attitudes. What do you do not understand about it NOT being okay for people to believe and spread lies? That behavior says something very bad about the character and standards of those who indulge it, and yet you don't seem to know that.

Good grief, even religious texts meant to direct illiterate populations thousands of years ago incorporated instruction on not bearing false witness, and of course that basic standard of social intercourse is actually far older than any religion that survives today.

Did it ever occur to you that you and your friends might be so (normally) flawed that in order for you to despise another normal person properly you have to villainize her and restyle details worthy of your criticism -- but that perhaps hit a bit too close to home -- into great crimes?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

69. Having met her

And being forced to deal with her, I can state that my feelings of mistrust are based on fact. In the 20+ years since, I still see those worst characteristics popping up.

[Hortensis]

70. Crap and nonsense. IMO, you've already lost the credibility

Last edited Wed May 11, 2016, 04:04 PM - Edit history (2)

anyone pretending to be able to judge "character" needs to have, which is to say the credibility of good character. You've admitted to spreading lies and slander. Good people do not do that.

FYI, my son-in-law is from a modestly prominent family in Arkansas. He has worked in the past alongside her and her husband, though not as one of them, and is better acquainted with her and others in her circle than you could ever be. He is not in politics but has known her and genuinely likes her for herself. And he is a man of good character. He is a mensch; he's not Jewish, but this is a standard we need to internalize for all of us. Smart, knowledgeable, cool-eyed and honest, kind, fair, and a gentleman. And I've literally never heard him slander anyone. Just the kind of man I am glad to have as the very good father he is of our grandchildren.

[Baobab]

60. I refuse to vote for either of them. They are gaming the system.

Bill Clinton plays golf with Trump, apparently, and people keep telling me that Clinton suggested Trump run.

I refuse to participate in a system that manipulates people in this way. Its dragging our country through the dirt.

[Hortensis]

66. Yes, that's pretty much democracy as engaged in by real people,

and even with one of our always-too-long-delayed cleanups it sounds as if it will never meet your standards. So, knowing yourself, I'm guessing you're probably making a good decision.

A great many adjure political involvement for many reasons, but overall their self-disenfranchisement may be for the best. If this election has confirmed anything at all for me, it's that we need better voters, not necessarily more voters. Strong belief in the importance and virtues of our democratic republic, no matter the inevitable warts, and a willingness to fight for even an imperfect system, would be a necessary qualification.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. So the logical extension is disenfranchisement

what groups are you going after as not so good voters I mean?

For the record, you might be making news here

[Silver_Witch]

52. Actually what the caucus v voting means

Is that Caucasus are not right! Voting should include everyone! Mail in ballots should be allowed in all states for everyone! Voting in primaries should be voting. Not a small bunch of people having their way! Voting day should be a national holiday so EVERYONE can vote. EVRRYONE!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Ah nice of you to ingore the HRC voters in WV who will be voting for Trump in November

or the fact that those are DEMOCRATS

[Number23]

79. "Sanders VOTERS said if Sanders was running in November they'd vote for Trump"

It is so terribly precious that this bit just keeps getting ignored so that people can keep pretending that these people are independents or even Democrats.

"Sanders VOTERS said if Sanders was running in November they'd vote for Trump"

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. And so did HRC supporters

Sorry, I am just laughing at the disconnect. It is hilarious.

Dig deeper, same poll

[Number23]

82. The disconnect most certainly is hilarious. Now instead of trying to pretend that these people

are Democrats, you are now trying to pretend that Hillary voters in the same state said that if Hillary was on the ballot, they'd vote for Trump over her.

I'd ask for a link but that would give the impression that I'm interested in a conversation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Alas 15 percent did say that

and most of the total number, both Sanders and HRC WERE DEMOCRATS. I find hilarious... it is hysterical actually.

I also know the excuses already. Have a nice day.

(for the record, the campaign is likely not as blinded by partisanship and group think, so likely they are understanding the danger danger will robinson moment, when matched up with the very recent polls about SWING STATES in the RUST BELT. Or at least I hope they are paying attention. I know you guys are not. )

[Number23]

84. Not that I believe or am interested in anything that you write, but even if it was 15%

that's a big, whopping difference from the over 40% of Sanders "supporters" that would toss him aside for Trump in the GE.

Thanks anyway.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. I know you are not interested

so the fact that you even have the need to respond is damn right hilarious. It is in that CBS poll I ain't doing that work for you.

By the way, MOST OF THESE VOTERS, once again, very slowly ARE REGISTERED DEMOCRATS. THEY ARE NOT INDEPENDENTS, THEY ARE DEMOCRATS. As to the HRC supporters, I was dying yesterday when I heard a clone of the lady who told me why she was going to do the same in CA... vote for her in the primary, and vote for Trump in the General. It comes down to not trusting HRC. And at her age the reason she does not like Sanders is also logical.

It was funny to hear it almost word for word on CNN. I was dying.



So do have the last word. I obviously hit a nerve, and I will not apologize for that. and I do hope the war room is looking into this... hey I know you will blame anybody and everybody... it is the way you roll.

[RichVRichV]

89. 3 counter points from that exit poll.

1) Almost 15% of Hillary's vote came from Republicans in the race. They were messing with both sides.

2) In spite of the Trump support in the race, Bernie still wins among the people who voted 55-33 against Trump compared to 45-35 for Hillary. That's a full 8 points better than Hillary does in the GE among West Virginia's Democratic primary voters. You remove the "Trump for Bernie voters" and that gulf becomes a lot bigger between them.

3) Bernie won the Independent vote over Hillary 58-22. Goes back to electability in GE. Think about that for a second, Hillary couldn't even get one quarter of the Independents who voted in the election.




As for the Nebraska non-binding primary, Omaha Steve explained it quite well (and he has a good grasp on Nebraska politics).

But there was no reason for Bernie people to go to the polls. Two of the three House seats will remain in R control. The lone D is a Dino.

There no no Governor's race this year etc.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141445157

To put it simply the presidential primary was meaningless to Bernie supporters. It was only run to meet state law that says Nebraska must have a primary in March. It has the state caucuses earlier (the one that actually matters) because the race is usually decided by March.

[puffy socks]

77. West Virginia isn't

the U.S.
You don't speak for all independents
I happen to be one and I'm voting for Hillary.

[Barack_America]

10. She's not kicking Bernie's butt, the DNC is kicking Bernie's butt.

If anything, she's holding the DNC back.

Can the DNC similarly rig the general election for her?

[Shadowflash]

14. only because

A LOT of progressive voters are locked out of closed primaries.

Too bad you can't lock us out of the GE.

[Dawgs]

16. In the South and closed primaries.

That's not enough.

[JoePhilly]

51. She won most of the open primaries too sparky.

Check the Google.

[Dawgs]

54. Googled it.

And, I'm still right.

She's won five open primaries (outside the Deep South) of the 43 states that have already voted. Bernie has won 7.

Bernie won 5 of the closed primaries. Hillary won 13.

Bernie does better in open or semi-open primaries outside of the deep south. Hillary does better when only Democrats are allowed to vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016

Southern States Hillary won
South Carolina
Alabama
Arkansas
Georgia
Mississippi
Tennessee

Open primaries (not in the South) Hillary won
9 States - 5 Open - 21%
Texas
Virginia
Illinois
Missouri
Arizona
Ohio (Semi-Open)
Iowa (Semi-Open)
Massachusetts (Semi-Closed)
North Carolina (Semi-Closed)

Open/Semi primaries Bernie won
13 States - 7 Open - 30%
Minnesota
Vermont
Michigan
Idaho
Washington
Wisconsin
Indiana
Utah (Semi-Open)
New Hampshire (Semi-Closed)
Oklahoma (Semi-Closed)
Hawaii (Semi-Closed)
Rhode Island (Semi-Closed)
West Virginia (Semi-Closed)

[Yavin4]

68. So, you throw out data that does not fit your narrative.

Got it.

[Dawgs]

80. No. My original post said South AND open primaries.

Which means, outside of the South Bernie does better in open primaries.

Not throwing out anything.

[Yavin4]

90. "outside of the South" means your throwing out data

Hillary leads Bernie in open primaries. Period.

[pkdu]

78. Got way too many "Souths" , "Deep South" in there to make it a coherent argument Sparky. nt

[Trust Buster]

2. It seems more likely to me that Trump can win. The main reason is that Sanders and his

supporters have decided, if Sanders can't win the nomination, then they'll work to deny Hillary the presidency.

[Dawgs]

18. I disagree on why many would vote for Trump.

I think many (not all) Sanders supporters don't see Hillary as an acceptable alternative between Hillary and Trump. They see her as just another establishment politician that won't make a difference in their lives. It's not a D vs. R thing with them. It's a Bernie or nothing in the primaries, and then decide between two people they don't like later. Many will vote for Hillary. Many will vote for Trump. And, some will stay home.

[Trust Buster]

21. So they would vote for Trump to reshape the Supreme Court ? I'm not buying that.

This is just base revenge to them IMO.

[Dawgs]

23. No. You're wrong. n/t

[Fawke Em]

40. No revenge.

Just tired of horrid establishment candidates.

[bahrbearian]

29. It couldn't be Hillary's Hawkishness, couldn't be Hillarys Wall Street Ties, It couldn't be her Lies

[Trust Buster]

32. No, it's definitely Sanders and her supporters continuing to attack her even though she's our

nominee. Don't kid yourself, this only serves to help Trump at this point.

[bahrbearian]

41. OH, I forgot, "Everybody Love's Hillary" She our Loved "Abuela " , That's why she loses to Trump.

[Fawke Em]

42. Correction: She's YOUR nominee.

Half of the Party doesn't give a shit about her.

[Trust Buster]

44. She's the Democratic Party's nominee. Those that can't deal with that can start their own party.

[w4rma]

49. I think you're trolling, Trust Buster. If you actually cared about the Democratic Party you wouldn't

provoke independent voters into voting for a third party during the general election season.

[Jitter65]

3. Only in W.VA and other mostly white or low POC voters. Not to worry. nt

[w4rma]

50. Just come out and say it: You care more about your 'free' trade deals than party unity. (nt)

[gollygee]

4. She can't win WV

I would never expect her to win WV.

She will win enough states to get the electoral votes she needs though.

[pdsimdars]

62. In 2008 W Va was her biggest win over Obama.

[gollygee]

71. In the general election n/t

[pdsimdars]

72. She wasn't running against Obama in the General election.

[gollygee]

73. Follow the thread

the OP says that the loss in WV shows that she can't beat Trump (which is the general election.)

I said that I wouldn't expect her to win WV (in the general election.)

You said that in 2008 she beat Obama in WV.

I clarified that I'm talking about the general election.

[DrDan]

6. how much more behind is Bernie after yesterday's win?

[Dawgs]

19. Missed the point, huh?

This thread is about Hillary sucking with Independents vs. a clown.

[DrDan]

27. "Hillary's own bullshit is costing her. She is failing all on her own." - guess you missed that

failing? Hillary is moving closer to the nomination with each loss.

[moriah]

88. You're forgetting no Independents who would ordinarily....

... vote for the Republican nominee have any more reason to vote in Republican primaries. They're over.

They are now free to ratfuck our primaries, and any exit polls that suggest Sanders supporters would rather have Trump will be skewed by the ratfucking.

I still don't think Bernie can manage half the pledged delegates even with the benefits that may come from said ratfucking, but it could skew attempts to analyze both Hillary and Sanders supporters in non-closed primaries from exit polling.

[onenote]

7. West Virginia doesn't prove squat about anything other than that West VA is a DINO state

Last edited Wed May 11, 2016, 08:34 AM - Edit history (1)

There are more than double the number of registered Democrats than independents in West Virginia (and fifty percent more registered Democrats than repubs). Yet, this is a state that, in 2012, when Obama had no real opposition for renomination, gave 40 percent of its primary votes -- the votes of supposed Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents -- to a convicted felon serving time for extortion (a guy, who it should be added, claims to be a former member of the "Federation of Super Heroes&quot .

West Virginia is the DINO state. If you want to call Clinton a republican, you had better deal with the fact that West Virginia, despite its registration statistics, is republican through and through. It's Congressional delegation consists of three republican house members, a repub Senator and one of the (if not the) most conservative Democrats in the senate. It's state house and state senate are both controlled by repubs -- again, notwithstanding the overwhelming advantage of Democrats in terms of party registration.

West Virginia proves nothing about the presidential campaign other than the fact that Trump would win West Virginia against either Clinton or Sanders -- something that is as about as surprising as the fact the sun came up this morning and will set tonight.

[berni_mccoy]

8. WV is only the latest WHINE fest. Hillary's been losing independents for a while now

And she's losing them big time. Enough to cost the election in November if she's the nominee.

[leeroysphitz]

20. "Hillary's been losing independents for a while now" She had independents? n/t

[madokie]

25. I just don't see Hill as President

not this time nor the next time or the time after that. If we want to protect our SC we need to get behind Sanders in a big way.

With the SC we can go backwards in a hurry if the 'CONs win this one.

This is the most important election in all my 68 years.

I'd love to have seen a woman President in my lifetime but not the one we have running today is all

I don't trust her as far as I can throw bills sorry ass, ACTUALLY.

I read that she was leaning on putting bill in charge of Trade agreements. That in itself is enough to give me the vapors and I don't get the vapors over anything, ever.

Me me me compared to Us Us Us. You know which one I'm for.

Go Bernie Go

[pdsimdars]

63. And here's the video . . . .

.

[Demsrule86]

9. WVA had not gone Dem since 96

So it proves nothing...especially when 30-40 % of Sanders voters plan to vote for Trump even if Sanders was the nominee.

[Matt_in_STL]

11. "Wait....are Independents allowed to vote in the general election???"

"Well this certainly changes things. Shit...shit...shit...what are we going to do? Republicans. Let's ask for Republicans to vote for me. They love me. Yeah, this could work."

-Hillary Clinton

[berni_mccoy]

12. Lol

[dana_b]

58. Yes we are! Lol... And

We are allowed to vote in........

California!!! 😀

[seabeyond]

13. Obama took the area so high in Democrats at 28% and 22% while winning the White House.

[JaneyVee]

15. Umm...Hillary is beating Trump with Independents.

[Betty Karlson]

26. Actually: no she loses to him.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141444917

scroll down to the two graphics, comparing Clinton and Sanders is hypthetical match-up with Trump.

[JaneyVee]

28. But she wins indies in states that matter with high electoral votes.

Indies in Cali, NY, Florida, etc. You dont have to win all the independents. Obama won without independents and white males.

[berni_mccoy]

30. Nope. Cali and NY are not swing states. She's not winning Indies in FL either.

Keep spanking that though... You might convince yourself in the end.

[Betty Karlson]

57. I can't take you seriously when you spin like that:

we need the independents in swing states and GOP-leaning states. We already have CA and NY. Florida: not so much, but Clinton loses the independents there. Bernie wins swing-state independents. Hillary loses them.

It is what it is.

[Progressive dog]

17. A Texas inmate took 41% of WV Democratic primary voters

against President Obama in 2012. Exit polls show 39% of Sander's voters would vote for Trump over Sanders in fall.

[Betty Karlson]

24. K&R for exposure. And for truth. eom

[Protalker]

31. Trump refers to Bernie as a Communist

Half of Bernie's voters will not vote Democratic because of her speeches and lies. A third of his Bernie Bros will vote Trump against Bernie. Trump is begging for a campaign chest of 1.5 Billion.and is supported by KKK.This is not Woodstock.

[seabeyond]

33. These are people that would vote Trump regardless if Sanders or Clinton.

[berni_mccoy]

34. And you base that on...

A bogus small sample exit poll which has already been corrected.



The butthurt is huge

[seabeyond]

35. Obama 2007 28% and 2012 22%.

[berni_mccoy]

36. Yup. Butthurt is bad if you change the topic that fast.

[seabeyond]

46. It is point on the topic. Doesn't matter if Clinton Obama or Sanders, they vote Republican. Please.

Do not use the term butthurt to me. It is crude, offensive and homophobic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Do me a favor, and this is not a call out, just raising awaremess

but that buthurt joke... not only it is old but it can be perceived as anti LGBT.

That point, fully I admit I should have been more aware of it before, but it dawned on me after going though some of my EMS notes, as dated as they are. also speaks of rape, yes male rape. It is in fact, one common physical finding when you actually treat somebody who was raped. We just use a nicer term.

I know people are doing this... and they do not mean ill, but we can find other ways to tweak people.

Thanks in advance.

[Demsrule86]

38. Math

just math. Hillary has already won...although I must say...the Bernie campaign is painful to watch...he has ruined his brand, and we can only hope has not damaged the general too much.

[asuhornets]

39. For everything to happen the way it is written in your OP, Bernie has to beat Hillary first.

Ain't happening. Hillary beat our first African-American President in West Virginia---I wonder why.

[berni_mccoy]

43. Not necessarily.

But hey, if the party wants to nominate a sure loser against Trump, let them put Hillary forward.

[asuhornets]

45. If Bernie was ahead in delegates and votes then he would be the Nominee,

therefore Hillary is the winner and Bernie is the loser.

[Human101948]

53. Yep she spanked Obama and his Obama Boys...

Why does that sound familiar?

[George II]

48. Without Trump's voters yesterday Sanders would have lost to Clinton by about 62% - 37%

[Punkingal]

55. K&R

[LonePirate]

56. It's a false assumption to believe that losing Indies in the primary means losing them in the GE.

It's laughably wrong to assume that if Bernie is the first choice of all or most independents in the primary and then they would never choose Hillary in the GE given fundamentally different choices exist in the GE. I'm not sure why that simple analysis is so difficult for people to understand.

[joshcryer]

61. Bookmarking.

[B Calm]

64. It looks like it's coming down to who stinks the less and how hard you pinch your nose

Last edited Wed May 11, 2016, 12:50 PM - Edit history (1)

on election day. We deserve better than this!

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Serious question is that photo shop

or they are selling those? I mean I might have to get one... LMAO

[mhatrw]

67. Registered Republicans were not allowed to vote in the Democratic primary.

All the whining that many of Sanders WV voters are actually Trump supporters holds true only if Clinton runs against Trump in November.

[synergie]

74. Sorry, but all the miserable whining about who exactly Bernie won in WVA shows

why Bernie can't beat trump, they have the same voters, ones who would choose Trump over Bernie in November.

He only "wins" when Trump voters puff up his vote count.

The idiots are those who are still sending in money to those fraudsters Tad Devine and Jeff Weaver and Bernie himself for ignoring reality and repeating their nonsense.

Sanders voters are Republicans ratfucking (actual political term, not an insult), and his own BS has literally been costing his campaign so much that his CA campaign manager quit. BS is the one failing miserably, Hillary isn't slinging any BS, she's leaving that to Trump and Bernie, and it will cost them, she's the one with all the votes, if only BS had "failed" as well as she did, he'd not be desperate, broke, and losing even when the other side votes for him, since Democrats won't and indies are not as gullible as he wishes.

Posts like these show just how far out of touch with reality die hard Berners truly are.


Why don't you do your guy a favor and get him into yet more trouble with the FEC and send him more money? It's how you responded to all his "winning" where he got less popular vote, fewer pledged delegates and zero SDs.