2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumDisappearing Sanders Votes in the Delaware Primary
I had some communication with an IT computer person who detected some vote glitches in the running of the Delaware Democratic primary in Sussex County, and has screen shots to document it. So I looked it up and found identical findings plus more disappearing Sanders votes.
In Sussex County Delaware the glitch was quite remarkable. With 16% reporting from Sussex County, Sanders was ahead of Clinton by 6,247 to 1,250. But later that evening, with almost 40% of the vote reported, Sanders count went DOWN to 2,383, a drop of 3,864 votes, while Clinton surged ahead of him. Even near the end of the evening, with 96% of the vote reported in Sussex County, Sanders vote total didnt get back to what it was before his votes disappeared.
Sanders also experienced a decrease in Delaware votes statewide during the course of the evening. And similar findings were reported from Broome County, New York.
Of course, if these were the only such instances of vote flipping, it wouldnt amount to much in the total picture. But everyone who knows anything about our election system knows that the electronic machines that count our votes are not monitored adequately for accuracy, and unless they are accompanied by a paper trail they cannot be verified. But even when paper trails are available, they are seldom used (as in hand counted audits) as a double check on the election results. And even when they are used and discrepancies are found between the hand counts and the machine counts, no remedial action is generally taken, as in a hand counted audit in Chicago, where public observers gave sworn testimony that the auditors found substantial discrepancies between the hand and machine counts, and then changed their own hand count to match the machine count, by subtracting Sanders votes and adding Clinton votes.
It is also worth noting that the disappearing Sanders votes in Delaware is reminiscent of the 2004 stolen Presidential election, which went to George W. Bush, though there were no screen shots available to prove what happened. I recall a group of TV news commentators discussing the Ohio vote situation near the end of the vote counting process. There was a big map of Ohio on the screen, and the commentators were giving a detailed analysis of how bleak the situation looked for Bush. The Republican commentator, whose name I cant remember, seemed very depressed. Then suddenly the whole situation switched around and Ohio was called for Bush. Final exit polls predicted a Kerry win in Ohio, and many other states also showed huge exit poll discrepancies, all favoring Bush in the official count compared to the exit polls. But TV commentators either ignored that issue or when forced to discuss it assured us all that the exit polls couldnt be trusted (implying that the official vote count could be trusted). Investigations in Ohio proceeded slowly, and several years later, Karl Roves IT guru, Michael Connor was subpoenaed to appear in court to be questioned about how he manipulated the Ohio vote electronically late on Election Night 2004 to give the election to Bush. An affidavit was signed to that effect. But shortly before Connors pending court appearance he died in a plane accident.
Nobody knows how extensive this kind of thing has been in the Democratic primaries this year because no systematic assessment of it has been done. But judging by the massive discrepancies were finding between exit polls and official vote counts, generally favoring Clinton by huge amounts in the official count, the problem is quite extensive indeed so much so that Sanders could very well be ahead now in pledged delegates in the absence of vote flipping (not to mention voter purging, which was found to be extensive in Arizona and New York especially, but also in other states).
djean111
(14,255 posts)The DNC will just have to battle it out with the GOP without me.
Hopefully Bernie's supporters in California will be taking pictures and note all of this sort of thing. Forewarned is forearmed.
CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)WELL DONE!
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)Underground, I dont dare say it or I will be censored.
AgerolanAmerican
(1,000 posts)the idea of democracy?
as in free and fair elections?
this year's primaries have been a complete disgrace
Time for change
(13,714 posts)But on that question, Hillary supporters remain oddly silent, as shown in this poll:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511959826
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Just checked in there my own damned self.
Andy823
(11,495 posts)It's so damned funny all the BS by the BS gang. Why are you even here when you could actually be out helping Bernie win instead of just spew this crap on DU? There is no way that posting here on DU is helping Bernie at all, so why stay?
brooklynite
(94,502 posts)I agree, not nearly as exciting a conspiracy theory.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)Is it because some TV commentator said so?
brooklynite
(94,502 posts)https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/27/the-conspiracy-theory-du-jour-did-the-washington-post-steal-delaware-votes-from-bernie-sanders/
Tarc
(10,476 posts)So what happened? "It was a vote-entry error," AP Director of Elections Services Brian Scanlon told The Post. "We quickly caught it and corrected within two minutes." In other words, the spike in support for Sanders (which would have constituted a sixth of his total support in the state) was a glitch like the Facebook outage. It is not the case that a cabal of conspirators for some reason posted real vote totals only to then change them, which would be a pretty stupid way to go about committing election fraud
Time for change
(13,714 posts)Yes, the boards of elections that are responsible for these elections always claim that these kinds of glitches are simply some sort of error, even though they always favor Clinton.
The massive vote purging in New York is said by the NY Board of Elections to be simply some kind of error. They were ordered to review more than a hundred thousand provisional ballots to see which ones should be counted, and they are doing it in secrecy, so no public citizen will know what criteria they use to decide which votes to count.
The exit polls which routinely predict that Bernie has done much better than the official counts in most states indicate, are said to be inaccurate.
The massive voter suppression and voter purging in Maricopa County AZ, where Election Day voting favored Bernie by more than 20% (compared to early voting that favored Hillary by more than 20%), accounted for less than 15% of the vote there. This voter suppression and purging was said by the Board of Elections to be an innocent error.
How many times do we have to believe this crap?
Tarc
(10,476 posts)The AP had a glitch, the news outlets that use their feeds reflected the glitch, for all of
TWO
FUCKING
MINUTES
Time for change
(13,714 posts)because they are so competent and neutral.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)Time for change
(13,714 posts)The first return, which is now claimed to be some sort of administrative or clerical error, which reported Bernie with a big lead in Sussex County, came with 16% reporting in Sussex County. According to the screen shots which I discuss in the OP, and provide a link to in the OP, the next return, with 40% reporting, reduced Bernie's vote count by about two thirds from the first report (screen shot). It seems to me that a lot more than two minutes passed between 16% reporting and 40% reporting.
So if the first screen shot represents an administrative error, and if this was corrected within "two fucking minutes", as you say, then does anyone anywhere have a screen shot that shows that correction? Or is this just an after the fact explanation which the BOE or our corporate news media came up with when they found out that the disappearing Sanders votes had been discovered?
I'm not saying that it would not be possible to "correct" the first report within two minutes, whether it was due to an administrative error or to vote rigging. I'm just asking if there is any evidence that the claim that it was corrected within two minutes is true, other than the fact that the BOE and/or our corporate news media say that it was.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)J_J_
(1,213 posts)No one shows up for Hillary rallies and we are told 'she likes it that way, she's in control, Bernie wishes he had that kind of control'
Seriously, they think we are idiots.
She feels so entitled she spends Goldman Sachs money to hire bullies to attack real Democrats on Democratic message boards.
She feels so entitled that we all have to be put at risk for a Trump presidency or immediate Hillary impeachment because of her ego.
She doesn't want to do anything good for us or this country- it's just her turn to be president.
And she and her hired supporters don't give a damn if they have to cheat and look like morons to 'win' it even if she will crash and burn in the GE.
This is so f'd up. We finally have a candidate that wants to help the 99%, these bastards steal it and are really obvious about it, then they get away with bullying us into submission?
I think that there is one good path to avoid a Trump presidency, and that is for Bernie to run as an independent.
Some precautions, with polling, will need to be done to ensure that he will be hurting Trump rather than helping him, but I think that that's what the evidence will show. And then Bernie will be our next President.
brooklynite
(94,502 posts)It has to do with the MEDIA's reporting of the tally on the WP web page.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)And we should always believe what we hear from our corporate news media because they are so competent and neutral in everything they do.
And we should also always believe what we hear from the boards of elections who are responsible for these "glitches", because they have proven themselves to be so trustworthy.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)great believer in conspiracy theories. In fact, I don't think he's ever met one he didn't immediately embrace. Perhaps he could join you in 'investigating the Great Washington Post election conspiracy that wasn't". You know maybe a TV special?
Time for change
(13,714 posts)Do you actually believe that conspiracies to steal elections never occur in our country?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)widespread attempt to steal elections during this primary season.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)Because you support Hillary?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Time for change
(13,714 posts)our votes, and which all voting experts agree have severely inadequate oversight to prevent election fraud, and are owned and operated by right wing wealthy individuals with ties to the Republican Party are likely to be more accurate than exit polls?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Neither has his campaign or any spokesperson for it. What sinister reason do you attribute this to? Is it part of a greater conspiracy? Is Bernie a Hillary plant? Inquiring minds want to know.
* except for his "me too" in joining Hillary's suit in Arizona
Time for change
(13,714 posts)anything that they say on the subject will be castigated so badly by our corporate national "news" media that it would take away from what they consider to be main theme of their message.
If that's the only fact that you're using to conclude that there is so little evidence of election fraud that it does not need to be investigated thoroughly, I think that's very naive and sad.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Time for change
(13,714 posts)I am suggesting that he didn't want to detract from the main message of his campaign.
It's so nice to see that another Hillary supporter who thinks that evidence of election fraud is something to laugh about.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)laughing at it. I'm laughing at your poor excuses.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)I'm asking you to explain on what basis you disagree with it.
If all you can do is laugh about it and blabber about "conspiracy theories" you are really not contributing anything to the discussion.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)single piece of 'evidence' adduced here on DU that wouldn't be instantly laughed out of court, much less a 'massive amount' of it. When there's no evidence all there is is background noise. Talk to me when you've got something real. Until then, it's not a discussion.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Evidence is tangible, factual and provable. All I see is conjecture, speculation and allegation. Until you show me where some competent judicial authority has found election fraud there's nothing to see.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)because I've provided plenty of it, and I have plenty of links in the OP to document it.
Whatever you want to call it, just tell me what parts you disagree with. Or if you don't understand it, then just have the honesty to admit that.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)over electoral matters has found electoral fraud.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)The purpose is to see whether the hand count of the votes agree with what an electronic machine provides us of the official vote count. It is supposed to be a check on the accuracy of the machines. In Chicago, some of these were done in the presence of public citizen observers. The observers observed that the auditors came up with hand counts that were very different than the machine counts, which is a clear evidence of electronic fraud. The observers then saw the auditors erase the hand count that they came up with and change it to match the machine count, by subtracting Sanders votes and adding Clinton votes. In other words, the auditors were erasing the evidence of fraud that they found. Several witnesses to this provided sworn testimony to that effect. If you don't agree that this is evidence of fraud, then you and I have nothing further to talk about.
This is in the OP, as was other evidence of fraud, but I guess you didn't read it, as you are much more interested in calling me a "conspiracy theorist" than in understanding what is going on.
http://www.inquisitr.com/3022058/election-board-scandal-21-bernie-votes-were-erased-and-49-hillary-votes-added-to-audit-tally-group-declares-video/
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)It's a conspiracy!
Fuckin' ridiculous....
kstewart33
(6,551 posts)Around every corner, under every rock.
I think I just found one in my kitchen. Excuse me while I get the bug spray.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)and vote for her given these many suspicious primary wins, she is simply not in tune with reality.
Mesee
(42 posts)So when Mayor Bloomberg went on television in 2008 to report Obama got zero votes in Harlem, is that a conspiracy. When my family voted in 2000 and Bush's name came up instead of Gore is that a conspiracy. In 2004 when a county in Ohio with 600 residents gives Bush 2 million votes, is that a conspiracy. All over the world exit polls are the Gold standard supported by our State Department. Oh like the Supreme Court stated in 2000 Bush was the exception now in 2016 Hillary is the exception. This is not about win and lose. Damn it, it's about our democracy.
J_J_
(1,213 posts)n/t
brooklynite
(94,502 posts)Maybe a complaint that cheating was occurring?
Anything?
J_J_
(1,213 posts)Americans are much more aware of their own votes being stolen.
The BOE audit/hearing of the purged votes proved that the majority of those purged were Sanders' supporters.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)I don't know what Sanders's plans are, but he intends to contest the election at the Democratic Convention. I can hardly wait to see that.
brooklynite
(94,502 posts)...do you imagine that Sanders is going to stand up and demand that voting be redone? Or that all the Clinton delegates be removed? or that all Delegates get to vote for whomever they want? You're going to be massively dissappointed.
All Sanders can do is plead with the Superdelegates he hates to ignore the 3+ million vote edge that Clinton has and support him. They'll ignore him. Clinton will win on the first ballot.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)I'm hoping for something BIG.
brooklynite
(94,502 posts)There are rules the Convention follows. They can't be arbitrarily changed without support of a majority of the Delegates who, surprise, aren't supporting Bernie.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)brooklynite
(94,502 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)extraordinarily unpleasant.
Joob
(1,065 posts)mhatrw
(10,786 posts)Time for change
(13,714 posts)Blue Meany
(1,947 posts)that machines counts, and I have generally found that Bernie Sanders did better in the hand-counted areas (which, I have learned, may simply mean hand counting a random sample of the ballots). However, if recall right, the entire state of Delaware uses hand-counting. This would militate against a fraud to explain the discrepancy, especially since there is a plausible explanation for it.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)Blue Meany
(1,947 posts)I was using the data from here:
http://www.verifiedvoting.org/verifier/#year/2016/state
I was searching through to see what areas of the country use hand-counting, and saw that it listed all counties in Delaware, so I concluded that it was statewide. But searching through by state, I find that there are a three types of methods used in each county depending on the precinct:
Premier/Diebold (Dominion) AccuVote OS CC Optical Scan
Hand Counted Paper Ballots
Danaher Shouptronic 1242 DRE-Push Button
Thus, I suppose any comparison would require precinct level data.
Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)The "force" came from Congress funding central voter registration ES&S software that integrates with GEM$ with a requirement that this integrated software system be ready for the 2016 election cycle.
See my post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1016&pid=156041
BTW, the vote totals AP was reporting was from a direct feed from this integrated voting system software.
questionseverything
(9,651 posts)if no humans were involved in this "glitch", it means the software is not accurate
what is wrong with the ptb that they do not want this kind of false report investigated?
voting in America has come down to the "trust us" system
KansDem
(28,498 posts)National elections, local elections, caucuses and primaries: one person/one vote. Just add them up...period!
Let's trash electronic voting and its bizarre results. I'm getting tired of this!!
Time for change
(13,714 posts)is the bane of our "democracy" and is a major reason why our election system ranks last among the 47 long established democracies in the world.
But you'll never hear our corporate national news media discuss that.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Kids our elections are not legitimate. And as more people realize that, this will lead to less and less credibility for whoever gets elected. But those who are winning right now don't care. I agree with Palast, this is a preview of November. And if Trump steals it, I do not want to hear a word from HRC supporters. These issues matter....beyond the fucking candidate
Time for change
(13,714 posts)he would beat both of them, possibly in a landslide. I think that may be the only way to prevent a Trump presidency.
2banon
(7,321 posts)for me, what the Dems were going do to resolve this issue. Some brave courageous voices attempted. Really did try. holding endless hearings but were marginalized and didn't get mainstream press coverage.
I'm only speculating, but it would appear (based on Obama's victories) the only way to overcome electronic fraud is if there were such a groundswell of voter turnout, to make it impossible to get away with flipping the voting machines.
I just don't understand why this system is allowed to be in play, all things considered... except for the obvious conclusion, which I don't really want to engage in here.
questionseverything
(9,651 posts)we have to beat them so bad there is no doubt
he also paid more attention to caucus states
the voter identification software was virtually his campaign counting their voters
so when 2012 came around and rove was saying ohio would go to romney, obamas team KNEW who had what support where ,it was his protection
Zynx
(21,328 posts)I've seen this happen so many times on so many election nights. One of the far northern NY counties had this happen to Hillary where it looked like she was stomping face, but it turned out the tally was off.
This is fetid garbage.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)ladyVet
(1,587 posts)To my knowledge, they all went her way, and only her way. Never has Bernie won something he shouldn't have over her, as far as I've seen reported.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)There should be no need to debate whether any election has been stolen. No one should have to catch flack for proposing any so called conspiracy theories. Clearly elections can be hacked and software can be tampered with to flip votes and totals. The only question is whether it has or has not been done in any particular instance - not whether it is possible. And that has to be unacceptable to all of us.
We can come up with theories about who may be doing this and why, whether or not it is highly orchestrated or not, if and when it happens, who is in on it if it happens and who was left in the dark. In the big picture that isn't the point. The point is that our democracy should be doing everything possible to make election theft as difficult as possible, and then using every tool available to routinely monitor and investigate any possible irregularities in a thorough and fully transparent manner.
Our election system fails to do so at every level with multiple layers of "fail" involved. We do not prioritize preventing and identifying election theft and so it is meaningless whether or not anyone can absolutely proof that it has happened in any specific instance. The fact that it is possible to rig an election should be enough to set off every alarm bell whether or not we can be certain that it has happened; here, there or everywhere.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)Extensive audits can be done in states with large exit poll discrepancies exist where electronic machines counted our votes and where paper trails are available, so that we can see for ourselves whether or not the machine counts are anywhere close to the hand counts.
And this should be done with an opportunity for public viewing (such as what was arranged in Florida 2000 before the USSC stopped the vote counting) because, as noted in my OP, the only audit that I'm aware of was a fake audit that was observed by public citizens attending the audit.
If the Democratic Party cared anything about fair elections they would make sure that this was done before they certify the election.
me b zola
(19,053 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)who created and what data did they use? Thanks.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)You need to scroll down to table titled "Exit polls vs. reported vote count" and read the sources attached to the table. I believe it is the same table with the same sources as reported in post # 47, but you can't see it because it is obscured by additional writing in post 47.
The source to the Republican comparisons can be found at this link:
https://medium.com/@spencergundert/hillary-clinton-and-electoral-fraud-992ad9e080f6#.94tl35u6f
Again, you need to scroll down to the table. The sources noted by the author of the article are 538.com, CBS live blogs, and a Ph.D. student and election tracker -- all to which the author provides links.
hack89
(39,171 posts)CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)What in the hell does this mean? When it happens in multiple elections, all favoring the same candidate?
70 percent of Americans don't trust Hillary Clinton.
Are the remaining 30 percent in a coma?
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)We now know why Democrats don't fight to have accountable voting systems. It's another check in favor of elites and against populist candidates,, like the superdelegates.
It was always naive to think such an unverifiable voting system would be used only by Republicans. The oligarchs now run both parties. Obama's choice for Secretary of Defense, Chuck Hagel, a Republican, was previously head of ES&S, the electronic voting company.
CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)It's obvious. Our primaries have been a shit show on steroids. Our exit polls don't match the election results. The Republican exit polls math their election results. Now, why is that?
You'd have to be dead to not notice the epidemic of cheating in the Democratic state primaries.
Each state has brought problem after problem after problem. Disappearing votes, people being wiped off the voter rolls, voter suppression, waiting in six hour lines to vote due to decreased polling locations. All kinds of "clerical errors", "mistakes", "paperwork problems", "administrative snafus."
It's a joke.
I'm not surprised to hear that they've screwed with the machines.
Kittycat
(10,493 posts)As well?
Time for change
(13,714 posts)It is a link to a board of election meeting at which a public citizen stands up and explains that the audit she and others observed was a fake audit, because the auditors changed their own hand counts to fit the machine counts by adding Clinton votes and subtracting Sanders votes. It doesn't get relevant until after 20+ some minutes, and the link has given me a lot of problems. I always get a message on my computer saying there's something wrong with the script. Maybe yours will work better.
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)snowy owl
(2,145 posts)The Rule of Law disappeared decades ago. I first learned of it during the Exxon Valdez oil spill and the following court decisions letting Exxon off the hood. We are a lawless nation.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)The more people who know about this, the more political pressure there will be to change. Lawless countries do sometimes change for the better, but it takes a lot of effort.
obamanut2012
(26,068 posts)pmorlan1
(2,096 posts)Denver Post uncovers that Democratic Party told Hillary Clinton's campaign about caucus counting mistake, but kept public and Bernie Sanders camp in the dark
Even if Clinton wins all 12 superdelegates in the state, Sanders can finish no worse than a split decision. The new count contrasts with prior projections from The Post, Bloomberg Politics and The Associated Press that indicated Clinton would probably win the majority of the 78 delegates in Colorado because of her support from party leaders with superdelegate status.
If Sanders lands one Colorado superdelegate two are still undecided and others are facing significant pressure he could win the state's delegation.
http://www.denverpost.com/election/ci_29755029/colorado-democrats-admit-mistake-that-cost-bernie-sanders
Deliberate cheating uncovered by the Denver Post. The "mistake" was not corrected until the Denver Post uncovered it even though the Colorado Democratic Party and the Clinton campaign knew about it for 5 weeks.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)Even though it only accounts for a net shift of two delegates, it is worth an OP, because I think it says a lot about how much Clinton and her supporters think of election integrity.
pmorlan1
(2,096 posts)Another sad part about Colorado is that the national media never picked up that story because it was the Colorado Democratic Party and the Hillary campaign cheating against Bernie. I hope you will send me a pm when you post your op. I don't want to miss it. Thanks.
Time for change
(13,714 posts)pmorlan1
(2,096 posts)Thanks.
smiley
(1,432 posts)J_J_
(1,213 posts)nt