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AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
Sun May 15, 2016, 02:36 PM May 2016

It's not Bernie's fault that the Democratic Party is being split

What would you expect when the party wants to both continue to serve the 1% that are screwing the rest of America, and is doing as much as possible to put a Wall Street loving neocon that is well known for being a lying shapeshifter as it's general election candidate? The reason that the party is angry is because finally the voters have an alternative choice.

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It's not Bernie's fault that the Democratic Party is being split (Original Post) AZ Progressive May 2016 OP
Wasn't split in 2008. Not split now. nt onehandle May 2016 #1
Its been split for a long time..waiting to erupt...n/t tokenlib May 2016 #4
yes n/t merbex May 2016 #12
Post removed Post removed May 2016 #14
Welcome back. Hope you don't get a hide. libdem4life May 2016 #18
Obama and Hillary are vitually identical in terms of policy. cui bono May 2016 #63
Bernie is just messenger. The party has been split by the Third Way. BillZBubb May 2016 #2
Bingo Armstead May 2016 #28
Ditto the bingo. nt SusanCalvin May 2016 #40
And ditto the bingo again! -none May 2016 #54
+1 Kittycat May 2016 #51
Yes. djean111 May 2016 #3
The party is not split. Agschmid May 2016 #5
From every meeting, message board and Democratic gathering I see. Fawke Em May 2016 #15
It's really not. Agschmid May 2016 #64
OK it's not..29% of registered voters and shrinking.. tokenlib May 2016 #75
The party isn't breaking into two, look at the voter results. Agschmid May 2016 #76
Keep your head in the sand, my friend. BillZBubb May 2016 #41
It is according to me. SusanCalvin May 2016 #42
I know you and your comrades are serious about the party not being split. floriduck May 2016 #61
Question for djean Txbluedog May 2016 #6
When your future is being threatened, is that moral purity? AZ Progressive May 2016 #7
Yep. Why choose the Marginally Less-Sh*tty Oligarch...? NewImproved Deal May 2016 #30
Because one's a loose cannon and one's not. SusanCalvin May 2016 #44
Can we get real for a second? TDale313 May 2016 #13
True Txbluedog May 2016 #25
No, but it's a statement vote at best in any event. TDale313 May 2016 #34
I'm in FL, and this year the Dems can't expect me to roll over and die glowing May 2016 #71
There are other parties, you know. Fawke Em May 2016 #17
Yes, but SusanCalvin May 2016 #47
True, but I mean that I'll use a vote for a third party as a signal to Fawke Em May 2016 #65
Yeah. SusanCalvin May 2016 #70
So by letting Trump win Txbluedog May 2016 #8
Is that all you can offer? AZ Progressive May 2016 #9
BTW, do you think that free trade is good? AZ Progressive May 2016 #10
You think that free trade can be stopped? Txbluedog May 2016 #16
"Resistance is futile" AZ Progressive May 2016 #20
Trade can be controlled -- The control has been given to Transnational Corporations Armstead May 2016 #32
Yep. nt SusanCalvin May 2016 #39
Large corporations are the real enemy. nt SusanCalvin May 2016 #58
Yes. Yes, I do. nt SusanCalvin May 2016 #50
The .Supreme Court has been hung before us for years... tokenlib May 2016 #21
we are screwed by either trump or Hillary, just by different degrees, however still screwed litlbilly May 2016 #60
The split was here before Bernie Hydra May 2016 #11
It'll be here long after this Primary too. TDale313 May 2016 #19
Kind of interesting how two such opposing parties/personalities/organizations libdem4life May 2016 #22
There has been a sea change Hydra May 2016 #27
It's become more of a Class Warfare situation. Corporate. Rigged. libdem4life May 2016 #29
Becoming.....? nt SusanCalvin May 2016 #35
I guess that's the tiny bit of hope I have??? It's just that people now are libdem4life May 2016 #49
Oh, Bernie does give me hope. SusanCalvin May 2016 #55
Absolutely. libdem4life May 2016 #72
From Burlington, gogeous sunsets over Lake Champlain karynnj May 2016 #67
Thanks. My East Coast geography is non-existent. Another question... libdem4life May 2016 #73
Yep. nt SusanCalvin May 2016 #38
As long as it's "Our" Oligarch! NewImproved Deal May 2016 #23
Oligarchs is oligarchs. nt SusanCalvin May 2016 #33
He's working his heart out to save the Democratic Party from itself. Chezboo May 2016 #24
Franklin's New Deal usurped by a swarm of vicious, greedy, amoral Yuppies... NewImproved Deal May 2016 #26
"I've got mine, screw you!" AZ Progressive May 2016 #36
Indeed. Vicious, greedy, amoral Yuppies--the leadership of the "New Democrats". NewImproved Deal May 2016 #56
For years, that was my description of a Republican... libdem4life May 2016 #59
Yep, yep, and yep. nt SusanCalvin May 2016 #31
Nothing ever Sanders fault. Steal data, logos, endorsement. Not Sanders fault. Don't follow rules, seabeyond May 2016 #37
Congrats, after another absurd, desperate post, you made my ignore list! BillZBubb May 2016 #43
What in the hell would be desperate, sitting in the winners seat, lol. You people. At least get the seabeyond May 2016 #46
I'm happy you're happy your candidate is winning. SusanCalvin May 2016 #62
Obey, follow the rules. He who breaks the law goes timmymoff May 2016 #52
Omg, ergo, Sanders is special and doesn't have to follow rules and laws everyone else does. seabeyond May 2016 #81
That sounds a lot like Hillary AZ Progressive May 2016 #82
Rules are for little people timmymoff May 2016 #83
'The party' isn't split. The angry people don't consider themselves members anyway. CrowCityDem May 2016 #45
So should the Democratic Party be a party just of pro free trade professionals that are... AZ Progressive May 2016 #48
Free trade is complicated. CrowCityDem May 2016 #53
The issue here is that corporate america and the 1% is putting much of America under siege and the... AZ Progressive May 2016 #57
Wait, what? kcr May 2016 #74
Hillary has been milking identity politics AZ Progressive May 2016 #79
Well, actually, it is like it should not be recognized. Actually. kcr May 2016 #80
Well, you're half right..... tokenlib May 2016 #69
K&R. Classic case of shoot the messenger, by the establishment. nt silvershadow May 2016 #66
Since sanders was never a democrat...I'm not too concern about opinions... beachbumbob May 2016 #68
beachbumbob—Do you research Democrats? Or will anyone—and anything—followed by a ‘D’ do? CobaltBlue May 2016 #84
sure it is Demsrule86 May 2016 #77
The split has been here all along. This time, it may result in a real split. Tierra_y_Libertad May 2016 #78

tokenlib

(4,186 posts)
4. Its been split for a long time..waiting to erupt...n/t
Sun May 15, 2016, 02:44 PM
May 2016

Obama delayed it with his " Hope and Change". Some of us thought he might neuter the Third Way. Or put on his comfortable walking shoes for workers...(Wisconsin?, elsewhere?)etc, etc....
It has been brewing for a long time..

Response to onehandle (Reply #1)

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
63. Obama and Hillary are vitually identical in terms of policy.
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:40 PM
May 2016

Bernie is finally the person the left wing of the Democratic Party - the people who still hold dear all the principles the Dem Party used to stand for; unions, working people, democracy, SS, income equality, fair taxation, health care - has been wishing for but were not given due to the Dem Party leadership selling out to big money. Obama is from the right wing of the party, the DLC crowd, the Third Way gang. He and Hillary are of the same mindset of pleasing the banksters while Bernie takes them on in order to fight for the people.

There is a YUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference this time. If the Dem Party establishment squashed the dreams of half its party there will be a split. And it will not be "sour grapes" it will be very real as it will come from the realization that the Dem Party is no longer the party that stands for the people. It will show loud and clear that they are the centrist party, that they embrace far too many moderate Republican principles and that anyone who wants a party that fights for them will have to go elsewhere.

.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
2. Bernie is just messenger. The party has been split by the Third Way.
Sun May 15, 2016, 02:42 PM
May 2016

The DLC'ers and "New Democrats" thought, like the Borg, they could assimilate everyone into their hive. Too many Democrats see what is really going on for that to happen.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
3. Yes.
Sun May 15, 2016, 02:42 PM
May 2016

Any assumption that I would be supporting Hillary, if she were the only choice presented to us by the DNC, is abysmally off the mark.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
15. From every meeting, message board and Democratic gathering I see.
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:02 PM
May 2016

Yes. It's very split between the Third Way and the FDR Democrats.

The Nevada Convention was just a preview.

tokenlib

(4,186 posts)
75. OK it's not..29% of registered voters and shrinking..
Sun May 15, 2016, 04:15 PM
May 2016

Ignore the Bernie boost in Dem regs. If Hillary is nominee
The Third Way isn't Miracle Gro...,

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
76. The party isn't breaking into two, look at the voter results.
Sun May 15, 2016, 04:17 PM
May 2016

Look at the super delegate endorsements.

Has anyone who is a sitting Democrat in congress said they wouldn't vote for Hillary? Not to my knowledge.

The party is fine.

We've got work to do to win the GE, but that's true everytime.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
42. It is according to me.
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:23 PM
May 2016

The only thing keeping me in, if Hillary is the nominee, is fear of Republicans.

 

floriduck

(2,262 posts)
61. I know you and your comrades are serious about the party not being split.
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:36 PM
May 2016

The reason you mean it is that those supporting Hillary see life that we have serious issues with as acceptable. One reason is that you likely have never been adversely impacted by the decisions of Third Way politicians. You aren't on a fixed income, you haven't experienced a layoff due to outsourcing, you haven't had a son, daughter, or spouse killed in a needless war.

But I do think you believe things are pretty good because of your experience.

 

Txbluedog

(1,128 posts)
6. Question for djean
Sun May 15, 2016, 02:49 PM
May 2016

So if Hillary is the democratic nominee, you would be content to vote for Trump or sit it out... Can you explain how this achieves your progressive goals? Or is it moral purity you are after?

AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
7. When your future is being threatened, is that moral purity?
Sun May 15, 2016, 02:51 PM
May 2016

Hillary as well as Trump threatens many Americans' futures.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
44. Because one's a loose cannon and one's not.
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:26 PM
May 2016

Hillary may get us into more "wars" (quotes because nobody's bothered to declare them for quite a while), but I hope she won't nuke anybody.

TDale313

(7,820 posts)
13. Can we get real for a second?
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:00 PM
May 2016

Those of us in solidly Blue or Red states are not at any risk of electing Trump by not voting Hillary. I wish it weren't the case, but however I vote in November will not be decisive. Hillary (assuming she's the candidate) will win California in all probability. And if she's losing here, my vote is the least of her problems. She's headed for a landslide loss.

I have not actually decided how I'll vote in November if she wins the nom. But "Trump's scary" won't be much of the equation. I won't be in much position to affect that.

 

Txbluedog

(1,128 posts)
25. True
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:09 PM
May 2016

I am in Texas and my vote for Hillary is not going to do any good, however the point remains: if you support Sanders and he's not in the race--who gets you ATLEAST some of what you want? Hillary or Trump? We live in a 2 party country so supporting a third party candidate gets us no where

TDale313

(7,820 posts)
34. No, but it's a statement vote at best in any event.
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:16 PM
May 2016

So my energy will be down ticket and I'll decide what to do with my Presidential vote, but I can do math too and I know that whatever that statement is won't be Trump's deciding vote.

If I were in a swing state (or light blue or light red, cause this election is not likely to follow traditional maps) I'd for sure be voting Hillary. The calculation would be far different.

 

glowing

(12,233 posts)
71. I'm in FL, and this year the Dems can't expect me to roll over and die
Sun May 15, 2016, 04:01 PM
May 2016

Go with the program... I doubt highly that she will even come close to winning FL. And the biggest issue with that is that medical marijuana may take the back burner AGAIN because the youth doesn't come out to bother voting for her... We were at 58% during a swing year... A Presidential election should be a slam dunk for over 60% and we may just lose that. Ridiculous waste of a year...

I hope Grayson does get the primary win and stuff it in people's faces. He might be her only coattail left and embracing pot in FL.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
65. True, but I mean that I'll use a vote for a third party as a signal to
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:45 PM
May 2016

the Democratic Party that it's gone too far right for me to even consider. I've voted for the Democratic nominee for 28 years. If enough of us do that, it will get noticed.

 

Txbluedog

(1,128 posts)
8. So by letting Trump win
Sun May 15, 2016, 02:54 PM
May 2016

How does this protect said future. At the very least with a democrat in the WH you get a somewhat progressive Supreme Court for the next several decades

AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
10. BTW, do you think that free trade is good?
Sun May 15, 2016, 02:59 PM
May 2016

Maybe you think that "you got yours" and the lower 80% of Americans should fuck off.

 

Txbluedog

(1,128 posts)
16. You think that free trade can be stopped?
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:02 PM
May 2016

You do realize that globalization is not going anywhere, right?

tokenlib

(4,186 posts)
21. The .Supreme Court has been hung before us for years...
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:07 PM
May 2016

...as the Democratic Party has allowed the country's agenda to be dragged to the right. At what point does the counteroffensive begin?

It may be easier to mobilze against a Republican promoting regressive policies, than having.to run against a Democrat who has implemented them.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
11. The split was here before Bernie
Sun May 15, 2016, 02:59 PM
May 2016

The Primary is simply bringing it to a head, since the Establishment Dems are saying "Our way or the Highway!!...But vote for us or you'll get Trump!!"

TDale313

(7,820 posts)
19. It'll be here long after this Primary too.
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:05 PM
May 2016

Non-Bernie supporters don't get that for many of us this is not about Bernie, or Hillary, or this election cycle. It's about fighting for a fairer, more equal system/society and about trying to make the Democratic Party part of the solution and not the problem. And it's a long game. It took decades to get here- it'll take time to turn things around.

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
22. Kind of interesting how two such opposing parties/personalities/organizations
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:08 PM
May 2016

are experiencing a similar event...disenfranchised portions of each party beginning to have their say. Highest unfavorability ratings for both.

Maybe it's a real cultural/political shift. That's my bet, but there is still a lot of time before November.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
27. There has been a sea change
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:11 PM
May 2016

And it's because the Establishments of both parties have been working together while publicly at odds.

Normal people see their doom coming from several angles. The more comfortable don't want the apple cart rocked.

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
49. I guess that's the tiny bit of hope I have??? It's just that people now are
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:29 PM
May 2016

starting to understand it. I know it can get worse, too, so now is the time and Bernie has not been nominated. Whether it's this election cycle or not, remains to be seen.

But I believe that he will continue as the Elder Statesman of the New American People's Revolution...and pray to god it's peaceful.

I wish our transition was as bloodless as the Republicans, but Trump did not have the RNC et al shilling for him. He just had weak fellow candidates and a healthy dose of public image creation.

I mean, who could imagine Nancy Pelosi even meeting with Bernie. Speaking of class differentials. High end, very rich Marin County California, views to die for of the Pacific Ocean vs. Lower end, Vermont, semi-rural not rich with department store suits, Bernie. I don't know whether there are places high enough to see the Atlantic Ocean in Vermont.

karynnj

(59,474 posts)
67. From Burlington, gogeous sunsets over Lake Champlain
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:47 PM
May 2016

With the Addironacks in the background. Vermont is gorgeous and many rural places have spectacular mountain views.

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
73. Thanks. My East Coast geography is non-existent. Another question...
Sun May 15, 2016, 04:09 PM
May 2016

do they charge like a million or two dollars for that view? Because that's what a Marin County or Malibu or San Clemente view runs, or at least did when I lived there.

I just checked Zillow for Marin County and it seems to be $1 million and up.

Chezboo

(230 posts)
24. He's working his heart out to save the Democratic Party from itself.
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:08 PM
May 2016

He's more of a true democrat than the rest of them, and they're threatened by that. My WWII/Korean conflict vet father would be turning over in his grave seeing what the party of FDR has tragically become.

 

NewImproved Deal

(534 posts)
26. Franklin's New Deal usurped by a swarm of vicious, greedy, amoral Yuppies...
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:10 PM
May 2016

Meet the "New" Democrats...

AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
36. "I've got mine, screw you!"
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:17 PM
May 2016

"I've got a masters / professional degree, a great job, a nice house, screw you! Only the well educated should benefit in society!"
- Many Hillary Supporters

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
59. For years, that was my description of a Republican...
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:34 PM
May 2016

"I've got mine, sucks to be you."

I'm kind of in mourning...because as you point out, that's where our Third Way has led our party. In the Democratic Party, I still want desperately to believe, that even the rich liberals believe in our unyielding support of the under/former middle class.

I did see some group of rich Democrats coming out for Bernie for just that reason. Let us hope more stand up to be counted so as not to give their entire class the Marie Antoinette Award.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
37. Nothing ever Sanders fault. Steal data, logos, endorsement. Not Sanders fault. Don't follow rules,
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:18 PM
May 2016

laws. Not Sanders fault. Sue DNC for his theft. Not Sanders fault. Read a headline and falsely accuse Clinton. Not Sanders fault.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
46. What in the hell would be desperate, sitting in the winners seat, lol. You people. At least get the
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:28 PM
May 2016

insult right.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
62. I'm happy you're happy your candidate is winning.
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:39 PM
May 2016

If it comes out that way in the end, hope the result is not too godawful.

 

timmymoff

(1,947 posts)
52. Obey, follow the rules. He who breaks the law goes
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:31 PM
May 2016

back to the house of pain. Being followers is what got us here, but you know that and are basically complicit, wouldn't you say?

AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
48. So should the Democratic Party be a party just of pro free trade professionals that are...
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:28 PM
May 2016

socially liberal and minorities invested in identity politics?

 

CrowCityDem

(2,348 posts)
53. Free trade is complicated.
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:31 PM
May 2016

For one thing, we can't say for sure how many manufacturing jobs were directly lost because of the agreements, and how many would have been lost anyway due to automation and increased efficiency.

Even if we could, we also have to balance the costs here, with the benefits given to the people at the bottom of the ladder in those other countries.

It's not as simple as saying we have less jobs today than in 1992, so it must be a terrible deal that caused all of it.

AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
57. The issue here is that corporate america and the 1% is putting much of America under siege and the...
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:33 PM
May 2016

party doesn't care because it either is not being affected (right now so far) or it cares more about social issues.

“What good is having the right to sit at a lunch counter, if you can’t afford to buy a hamburger?”
- Martin Luther King, Jr.

kcr

(15,300 posts)
74. Wait, what?
Sun May 15, 2016, 04:09 PM
May 2016

Minorities invested in identity politics? Should the Dem party be using terms like "identity politics?" in the first place? Let alone using phrases like "Minorities invested in identity politics" as if that's a hobby rather than their life?

Never mind plenty of Hillary supporters are low income to begin with. I don't think this is the way we convince people.

AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
79. Hillary has been milking identity politics
Sun May 15, 2016, 04:34 PM
May 2016

It's not like it should not be recognized...

And BTW, I am not white and I am pissed off at Hillary's taking advantage of latinos while supporting the coup in Honduras. As someone that is half hispanic, I am very much against the continuation of American Imperialism.

kcr

(15,300 posts)
80. Well, actually, it is like it should not be recognized. Actually.
Sun May 15, 2016, 04:52 PM
May 2016

This Bernie supporter thinks we could have done without the racism and sexism.

tokenlib

(4,186 posts)
69. Well, you're half right.....
Sun May 15, 2016, 03:59 PM
May 2016

If Hillary gets the nod..the Bernie spike in Dem regs will evaporate, more long term Dems are fed up and going Independent. They'll be under 29% of registered voters in no time. The Third Way ain't no growth hormone..

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
78. The split has been here all along. This time, it may result in a real split.
Sun May 15, 2016, 04:27 PM
May 2016

As in a new party is born while the old party becomes meaningless.

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