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YouDig

(2,280 posts)
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:20 AM May 2016

What happened in Nevada gets to the character of both campaigns.

It's a good case study, a controlled experiment even, because procedurally the same thing happened twice, once on each side.

In the county conventions, the Sanders camp out-organized the Clinton camp, and ended up with a few more delegates than they had coming in. In the state convention, it was the other way around.

But the reactions of both camps tell the story. After the state convention, we got sexist slurs, physical violence, and death threats. Nothing like that happened at the county level.

A number of commentators have drawn comparisons between the Trump movement and the Bernie movement of this and other similar events. This is only partially accurate. Bernie's supporters have indeed been behaving more and more like Trump's. But Bernie hasn't been egging them on.

But he also has done very little to keep his followers under control. Yes, in Nevada he did issue a statement the day before the convention telling his supporters to stay peaceful, but it's obvious that token statements aren't going to keep these people under control. He needs to address the problem forcefully and quickly. Or, failing that, drop out of the race.

He's obviously not going to win. Does he want his legacy to be thrown chairs, death threats, and sexist slurs?

65 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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What happened in Nevada gets to the character of both campaigns. (Original Post) YouDig May 2016 OP
Link ? To the throwing of chairs ? TheFarS1de May 2016 #1
Guess you haven't read much about the story. YouDig May 2016 #3
So all heresay and no video ? TheFarS1de May 2016 #4
Aha, so you think the NYT and AP are lying. YouDig May 2016 #5
David Brock has gotten false stories in the news before. jfern May 2016 #7
Aha . TheFarS1de May 2016 #8
Oh the conspiracy theories. YouDig May 2016 #11
Conspiracy ? TheFarS1de May 2016 #14
You're accusing multiple news sources of inventing a story. That's a conspiracy theory. YouDig May 2016 #19
Any video ? TheFarS1de May 2016 #22
Multiple independent reports from credible news sources. Yeah, you can deny all day. YouDig May 2016 #24
Multiple ? TheFarS1de May 2016 #25
Also Jon Ralston and the Washington Post. That's 4, which qualifies as "multiple". YouDig May 2016 #29
Washington Post ? TheFarS1de May 2016 #34
Yes, you've heard of it I presume. YouDig May 2016 #37
Of course . TheFarS1de May 2016 #38
Oh yeah, I forgot that they are part of the big conspiracy too... YouDig May 2016 #40
Not at all . TheFarS1de May 2016 #42
Not just their word, multiple independent reports. It happened, period. YouDig May 2016 #43
No , people "say" it happened . TheFarS1de May 2016 #45
Yes, people who were there and saw it say it happened. YouDig May 2016 #46
So now you are guessing . TheFarS1de May 2016 #47
Not at all. It was reported multiple independent times by credible news sources. No guessing. YouDig May 2016 #48
So no video in a venue filled with cameras ? TheFarS1de May 2016 #51
Had a discussion like this about the "returning Vietnam veterans were spit on by hippies" legend... Human101948 May 2016 #58
There is no links to any of it. The word bitch is heard but that could EASILY have been added Skwmom May 2016 #28
I know . TheFarS1de May 2016 #55
*** NSDP damning letter accusing SANDERS' CAMPAIGN ** Hortensis May 2016 #61
Really... nenagh May 2016 #2
You show that the character of the Hillary campaign is to lie, lie, lie, and lie some more. jfern May 2016 #6
Bernie lies much more than Hillary, as documented by independent fact-checkers. YouDig May 2016 #10
Politifact said Bernie lied when he said he tends to poll better jfern May 2016 #20
Nobody compares the Trump movement to the Bernie movement Gavile May 2016 #9
I guess you haven't been reading much about the campaign then. YouDig May 2016 #12
I've been reading a lot of Brockaganda that dishonestly tries to link them Gavile May 2016 #13
oooo filling in "Brock" square on CDS Bingo obamanut2012 May 2016 #16
I guess we shouldn't mention that Hillary's campaign is being run by a Republican Gavile May 2016 #21
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! obamanut2012 May 2016 #36
Honestly, I don't know how some of you Hillary supporters can even look at yourselves in the mirror Gavile May 2016 #41
+1. nt nc4bo May 2016 #33
Thank you -- exactly this n/t obamanut2012 May 2016 #15
What happened when a Sanders supporter questioned the legitimacy of Clinton delegates Mnpaul May 2016 #17
Does he want his legacy to be thrown chairs, death threats, and sexist slurs? stonecutter357 May 2016 #18
No matter how hard you try to make this meme stick, it won't Gavile May 2016 #23
Welcome to DU! stonecutter357 May 2016 #27
The only people who believe this Gavile May 2016 #32
Nevada Democrats: Sanders Campaign Has Violent Streak.. stonecutter357 May 2016 #50
Nevada Democrats aren't unbiased observers here Gavile May 2016 #52
This message was self-deleted by its author DemocratSinceBirth May 2016 #26
Always nice to see the warped thinking of those on the right. Broward May 2016 #30
Clinton supporters have officially lost all objectivity... BlueLouisville May 2016 #31
That's not true, that was the story from the Bernie supporters there (the ones making the death YouDig May 2016 #35
I'm sorry but that's simply not true. BlueLouisville May 2016 #49
Simple truth is that Hillary had more delegates there than Bernie. Bernie's people didn't show up. YouDig May 2016 #53
I think the entire process is absurd. BlueLouisville May 2016 #57
The Sanders supporters ruled ineligeble was because either they weren't registered Democrats YouDig May 2016 #60
That isn't true. BlueLouisville May 2016 #63
It is true, it's been widely reported by multiple sources. The credentials committee was bipartisan. YouDig May 2016 #64
Yes. It's apples and oranges Eric J in MN May 2016 #39
Is David Brock paying you to smugly insult Eric J in MN May 2016 #44
This one has really come in strong. frylock May 2016 #65
"Does he want his legacy to be thrown chairs, death threats, and sexist slurs?" NurseJackie May 2016 #54
This isn't exactly true or all of the reasons for the discontent. glowing May 2016 #56
Interesting how Sanders, a man to pounce on calling out theft, for losing, has stayed out of this. seabeyond May 2016 #59
You may be too kind in saying Bernie hasn't been egging them on. This a.m., I heard on R B Garr May 2016 #62

TheFarS1de

(1,017 posts)
1. Link ? To the throwing of chairs ?
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:22 AM
May 2016

In a room filled with phone cams and cameras ? Should'nt be hard , I would hate to think you would lie about something like that . It may reflect poorly on your chosen candidate ..... by your own standards .

TheFarS1de

(1,017 posts)
14. Conspiracy ?
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:30 AM
May 2016

I asked for video evidence in a venue saturated with cameras ... and you can't even produce 1 video showing anything like what you described .

YouDig

(2,280 posts)
24. Multiple independent reports from credible news sources. Yeah, you can deny all day.
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:36 AM
May 2016

You probably also think that Bernie is "ahead" and is going to be the nominee. Not really my problem, facts are facts, whether or not you like them.

TheFarS1de

(1,017 posts)
25. Multiple ?
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:39 AM
May 2016

You quoted 2 sources with no video in a venue filled with cameras . The honus is not upon me , other than word of mouth from 2 sources , what evidence is there . Like a video .

YouDig

(2,280 posts)
29. Also Jon Ralston and the Washington Post. That's 4, which qualifies as "multiple".
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:44 AM
May 2016

But you have every right to deny facts. Just don't expect us in the reality-based community to deny along with you.

TheFarS1de

(1,017 posts)
34. Washington Post ?
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:46 AM
May 2016

Seriously ? Where is the video . After that you definitely have to post the video evidence . In a venue filled with cameras where is the video evidence .

TheFarS1de

(1,017 posts)
42. Not at all .
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:52 AM
May 2016

Just they have been caught lying before so without video proof in a venue saturated with cameras only a fool would take their word as gospel . Where is the video ?

YouDig

(2,280 posts)
46. Yes, people who were there and saw it say it happened.
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:57 AM
May 2016

I guess the Bernie people who shot those videos switched off their cameras before picking up chairs. Who cares?

TheFarS1de

(1,017 posts)
47. So now you are guessing .
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:59 AM
May 2016

In a venue filled with cameras where is the video ? Or do only Sanders supporters have phones ? The media ? Anyone ?

YouDig

(2,280 posts)
48. Not at all. It was reported multiple independent times by credible news sources. No guessing.
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:02 AM
May 2016

As to why the Sanders people didn't post video of themselves throwing chairs, sure, either of us can guess. But the fact that it happened is a fact.

TheFarS1de

(1,017 posts)
51. So no video in a venue filled with cameras ?
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:04 AM
May 2016

I am sure that the Hillary crowd would gladly post evidence if available .... so it's a no to any actual facts , just a few suspect people's opinions .

 

Human101948

(3,457 posts)
58. Had a discussion like this about the "returning Vietnam veterans were spit on by hippies" legend...
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:20 AM
May 2016

just this weekend. Many people claim it happened, some claim to have been victims of it. Yet no one can substantiate it.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/03/nobody-spat-on-american-gis/

Yes, it is possible to spread stories that have no real basis.

Skwmom

(12,685 posts)
28. There is no links to any of it. The word bitch is heard but that could EASILY have been added
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:44 AM
May 2016

to video. More manufactured b.s.

TheFarS1de

(1,017 posts)
55. I know .
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:10 AM
May 2016

I just love watching them avoid a direct question ... why in a venue filled with cameras is there no video evidence ? *crickets*

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
61. *** NSDP damning letter accusing SANDERS' CAMPAIGN **
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:30 AM
May 2016

The Nevada State Democratic Party has formally informed the DNC of their belief that Bernie Sanders' own campaign planned and orchestrated the convention disruption for "sinister" purposes. Don't bother thinking they don't have evidence for their official and extremely serious charges. Every word will have been vetted by their attorneys.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/312844982/160516-Letter-DNC-RBC-NVDemsConvention

The explosive situation arose in large part because a portion of the community of Sanders delegates arrived at the Nevada Democratic State Convention believing itself to be a vanguard intent upon sparking a street-fight rather than attending an orderly political party process. Surprised and outraged at the idea of being out-organized and thus outnumbered in the convention hall by Clinton delegates, a portion of the Sanders delegation rushed the dais immediately upon the opening of the convention and halted the progress of any convention business for much of the day. Indeed, every point during which Sanders delegates did not agree with any aspect of the proceedings saw them press up against the dais and scream obscenities and threats at the Chair, First Vice Chair, and any other speaker. In fact, event security provided by the Paris Las Vegas Hotel & Casino took it upon themselves to increase the security perimeter around the dais so the convention could simply move forward with its routine business in relative safety. In other words, the hour-to-hour business of Nevada Democrats was necessarily conducted in an atmosphere of impending eruption of physical threats and intimidation for more than 12 hours. Scuffles, screams from bullhorns, and profane insults marked nearly the entirety of the event. Numerous medical emergencies among delegates pressed up against the dais had to be attended to throughout the day.


The Sanders Campaign spent its time either ignoring or profiting from the chaos it did much to create and nothing to diminish or mitigate. It was clear to the NSDP that part of the approach by the Sanders Campaign was to employ these easily-incensed delegates as shock troops to sway the convention proceedings. At the very least, these delegates became a way for the Sanders Campaign to seek the advantage of disruption at any particular moment while trying to disavow any responsibility for their actions even as it was ongoing. At no time did any Sanders representative make anything more than token gestures towards peace in the hall, and at the times of most intense crisis offered little more than shrugs and smirks.


The most egregious instance of the Sanders Campaign inciting disruption—and yes, violence—came as the State Convention’s Credentials Committee completed its work. Adam Gillette, part of National Delegate Operations Team for the official Sanders Campaign, drafted and arranged for a member of that committee to attempt to deliver an incendiary, inaccurate, and wholly unauthorized “minority report” charging that the Credentials Committee had fraudulently denied 64 Sanders delegates their eligibility. The final delegate count had provided the Clinton Campaign with a 33 delegate advantage in the hall; one can imagine the rage occasioned by this inflammatory charge, tossed into the tinderbox of a tense convention hall. Not only did this discredit the work of the Credentials Committee—which featured five Sanders delegates and five Clinton delegates and a Sanders co-chair, and who worked all day under extremely trying conditions to be fair and diligent in their duties—it called into question the entirety of the proceedings because it indicated to an irrational minority that the proceedings had been rigged against them. Forcing their way onto the dais to deliver this paranoid fantasy of fraud and delegate theft was clearly intended to throw the proceedings into disarray. It succeeded. From that moment on, there was little hope for any peace or mutual understanding and respect between Sanders delegates and the NSDP; the mantra became simply that the convention had been stolen from the Sanders Campaign. Never mind that six of the 64 potential Sanders delegates referenced had been seated after investigation, or that most of the remaining 58 potential delegates had been disqualified—appropriately, and by a panel evenly split between the campaigns—for not being registered Democratic voters in Nevada. Never mind that the same Credentials Committee had disqualified Clinton delegates for various reasons as well. Never mind, further, that just eight of those 64 potential Sanders delegates even attempted to register for the State Convention. All that mattered was the creation of a narrative of fraud and dispossession, which the Sanders Campaign fomented intentionally for its own political gain. This was an unconscionable act by an official Sanders Campaign representative, with full knowledge of its likely impact on the convention.


The people who fostered, encouraged, and gained from the unsettling scenes at the Nevada State Democratic Convention bring dishonor and discredit to our state and national parties. Having seen up close the lack of conscience or concern for the ramifications of their actions—indeed, the glee with which they engaged in such destructive behavior—we expect similar tactics at the National Convention in July. We therefore formally complain to the DNC regarding these unfortunate events, and warn the body that the goal of many of these individuals, sanctioned or encouraged by the Sanders Campaign, is not party-building but something more sinister and unproductive. Their tactics speak for themselves, and have no place in our political process as Democrats.

YouDig

(2,280 posts)
10. Bernie lies much more than Hillary, as documented by independent fact-checkers.
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:28 AM
May 2016

But there's a difference between telling lies and throwing chairs and issuing death threats.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
20. Politifact said Bernie lied when he said he tends to poll better
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:34 AM
May 2016

Those "fact checkers" need to be fact checked.

 

Gavile

(107 posts)
9. Nobody compares the Trump movement to the Bernie movement
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:28 AM
May 2016

Except those on David Brock's payroll. About the only thing they have in common is that they are both dissatisfied with the status quo. And why shouldn't they be?

 

Gavile

(107 posts)
13. I've been reading a lot of Brockaganda that dishonestly tries to link them
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:30 AM
May 2016

But it's all false and transparent.

obamanut2012

(26,064 posts)
36. BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:48 AM
May 2016

Thanks, man -- I beat the old lady from down the street -- she was waiting for "money laundering."

 

Gavile

(107 posts)
41. Honestly, I don't know how some of you Hillary supporters can even look at yourselves in the mirror
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:51 AM
May 2016

How does it feel to know you can only win by avoiding the issues, and lying about your opponent and his supporters? Don't you feel the slightest bit of shame?

Mnpaul

(3,655 posts)
17. What happened when a Sanders supporter questioned the legitimacy of Clinton delegates
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:33 AM
May 2016

at the county convention? They were threatened with removal. Are we forgeting this?

And still no real proof of thrown chairs or real proof of death threats from an actual Sanders supporter

 

Gavile

(107 posts)
23. No matter how hard you try to make this meme stick, it won't
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:36 AM
May 2016

Just like all the rest of them.

We're still waiting for the video footage that proves any of that even happened.

 

Gavile

(107 posts)
32. The only people who believe this
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:45 AM
May 2016

Are people who never liked Bernie in the first place. To non-biased observers, Bernie's legacy is intact.

 

Gavile

(107 posts)
52. Nevada Democrats aren't unbiased observers here
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:06 AM
May 2016

And a few people (allegedly) throwing chairs is not a "streak".

Response to YouDig (Original post)

 

BlueLouisville

(28 posts)
31. Clinton supporters have officially lost all objectivity...
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:45 AM
May 2016

The Nevada convention was a totally undemocratic process. The Chair started voting a half hour early and used that time to pass 'temporary rules' for the convention. Oddly all of Clinton's supporters were there for the early vote, while Sanders supporters were milling around outside. They refused to recognize the minority report, until somebody else donated their speaking time for something that should have been allowed. The Chair took voice votes which were clearly opposite of what she ruled, then she seconded her own motion and adjourned the convention. Forget about the candidates for a minute and try to focus on the undemocratic process that unfolded in Nevada.

YouDig

(2,280 posts)
35. That's not true, that was the story from the Bernie supporters there (the ones making the death
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:47 AM
May 2016

threats), but now that the actual facts have been reported, what happened was simply that Bernie people didn't show up. And then the ones that did started disrupting because they were upset.

 

BlueLouisville

(28 posts)
49. I'm sorry but that's simply not true.
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:03 AM
May 2016

I'm not defending or absolving the behavior of Sanders supporters but the process was undemocratic. You can vote for whoever you want, but supporting the actions of the Nevada Dem Party is absurd. I have every intention of voting for Sec. Clinton in the general, but this whole primary process has been slanted in her favor and if you can't acknowledge that fact, then you've lost all objectivity. I vote blue no matter what and it's true I prefer Sen. Sanders, but I don't dislike Sec. Clinton. I'm just calling a fair game between the two candidates. Sanders supporters were out of line, but so was the entire process. This is an election not a football game, at least try to remain somewhat impartial.

YouDig

(2,280 posts)
53. Simple truth is that Hillary had more delegates there than Bernie. Bernie's people didn't show up.
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:06 AM
May 2016

There's nothing undemocratic about a majority vote. Then they tried to disrupt the convention, and the Nevada Chair didn't let them. And good for her.

I do agree that a process that depends on who shows up and who doesn't is a mess, they should just allot delegates according to the original caucus results, not these multiple layers of conventions. But Bernie benefited at the county convention when the exact opposite thing happened and Clinton people didn't show up. I don't recall and chairs being thrown and death threats.

 

BlueLouisville

(28 posts)
57. I think the entire process is absurd.
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:19 AM
May 2016

The delegates should be awarded proportionally based on the state's popular vote. The whole process is outdated and confusing in my opinion. Sanders supporters were there on time and were ruled ineligible to vote. There was an early vote on 'temporary rules', which in and of itself is undemocratic. The Chair did not properly execute her job. The voice votes were obviously opposite of her rulings and even if they weren't they were close enough to perform a standing count, which is mandated by rule, but she simply seconded her own motion and adjourned the convention. It was wrong, period. We can agree to disagree...

YouDig

(2,280 posts)
60. The Sanders supporters ruled ineligeble was because either they weren't registered Democrats
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:29 AM
May 2016

or because their names and addresses weren't on the delegate list. This was confirmed by the credentials committee which was made up of supporters from both candidates.

The Chair executed her job according to the convention rules. The reason the votes didn't go Bernie's way is because there were more Hillary people there than Bernie people. What happened was simply that Bernie people didn't show up, and then they tried some parliamentary tricks to cause chaos and override the vote, and those tricks didn't work, so then they got violent and issued death threats.

YouDig

(2,280 posts)
64. It is true, it's been widely reported by multiple sources. The credentials committee was bipartisan.
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:48 AM
May 2016

It's not Hillary's fault that Bernie's people didn't have credentials. The rules are the rules.

I agree that the process is a mess. The delegates should just go proportionally to the original caucus results. And in the end that happened anyway. Too bad we had to have the violence and death threats.

Eric J in MN

(35,619 posts)
39. Yes. It's apples and oranges
Tue May 17, 2016, 07:49 AM
May 2016

...to compare reactions to properly-run conventions vs to a convention run in an unfair way.

Of course the latter causes more anger.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
54. "Does he want his legacy to be thrown chairs, death threats, and sexist slurs?"
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:07 AM
May 2016
Does he want his legacy to be thrown chairs, death threats, and sexist slurs?

I honestly don't know the answer to that question. (And the fact that I'm unable to easily and definitely answer that question in the negative reflects poorly on Sanders and his campaign, doesn't it?)



Alerter: These are my personal observations and my personal opinions.
 

glowing

(12,233 posts)
56. This isn't exactly true or all of the reasons for the discontent.
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:12 AM
May 2016

But thanks for playing the "Bernie Bro's" meme that has taken hold... It was a nasty smear used in 2008 and it was another smear used again this time around.

BTW, I think the group of people fighting tooth and nail for the party to represent the people and the people's need over the "establishment", corporate power brokers that have control of the party and have been playing slimey, dirty tricks the whole primary season, is going to always sound better and have their malfeasance covered up by the establishment media.

Rachel Maddow was full bore lies in explaining why people were booing... Oh, and all those chairs being thrown? She showed all types of footage, and not one chair thrown anywhere. She actually looked really uncomfortable lying last night.. Like she knew she was blatantly telling ALL lies, and felt pretty dirty doing it. How far she's fallen... But when you lay down with dogs, you often get fleas.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
59. Interesting how Sanders, a man to pounce on calling out theft, for losing, has stayed out of this.
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:21 AM
May 2016

He knows he has no where to take this one. That his people were an embarrassment and out of control. He sits back and stays quiet.

R B Garr

(16,950 posts)
62. You may be too kind in saying Bernie hasn't been egging them on. This a.m., I heard on
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:34 AM
May 2016

KNX AM 1070 a brief report of the violence at the Nevada convention, and one commentator said that Bernie was "allowing to exist" a notion that he has somehow been "snookered" out of a nomination. So it's talked about in the general public now, not just on internet message boards, that Bernie is allowing this type of behavior to continue.

They obviously want to twist every situation to make themselves victims to justify this increasing violence. The rest of us are on to them.

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