*UPDATED* Could it happen? Could Bernie go indy?

[pinebox]

I'm curious and would like to hear peoples thoughts.
No, I'm not condoning he does so y'all know.

Could it happen? Could Bernie go indy?
I know at the start he said he wouldn't but things have happened and times have changed.
I'm thinking it is something which needs to be thought about, especially with all the recent shenanigans that have been going on. He has thus far failed to endorse Hillary should she be the Dem nominee as well & after what happened in NV......hm.

What do you all think? Possibility or "nope"?

UPDATE---

The reason I ask this is because of Bernie's speech last night. I finally found it online. It begins at 3:31:00.

&t=3h31m00s

[joshcryer]

1. No.

[pinebox]

4. Ok why is it you think so?

Can you provide an answer?

[joshcryer]

10. Because he is a man of his word.

And he has integrity.

[pinebox]

17. You didn't see his speech in Cali last night I'm guessing?

[joshcryer]

35. I certainly did.

It was fine.

[pinebox]

48. I think the number is 5.

[joshcryer]

64. Sore loser laws don't historically apply to Presidential elections.

https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_access_for_presidential_candidates#Election_dates_and_filing_deadlines.2C_2016

Scroll to indy's. August is the deadline for most states.

[joshcryer]

78. Oh no question it'd be terrible.

Just wanted to clear that bit up.

I'll never forgive Nader for campaigning in NH the week of the election. People point to FL and how FL dems voted for Bush and Nader didn't matter, etc. But there was still NH.

[joshcryer]

83. I looked up an old anti-Nader post I wrote.

Check it out: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025175397

[MariaThinks]

154. i despise nader and blame him for the blood of millions spilt by the bush criminals

as well as blaming the fing republicans and the right-wing criminals on the supreme court.

[bvf]

197. Bill Clinton

(he of the uncontrollable libido) didn't much help matters on that score.

It would be honest of you to admit that.

[Maru Kitteh]

216. What elected office is the Fox News Clenis running for again?

[bvf]

219. Economic czar, or whatever stupid label

you care to put on it.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/17/us/politics/bill-hillary-clinton-administration-economy.html?referer=

Even absent that, he's fair game as stumper-in-chief, as well as being the idiot who did his own part in ushering in the Bush/Cheney era.

Oh, wait. I'm sorry. Was that whole Lewinsky mess just another product of Fox's fevered imagination, or simply another Clinton family peccadillo you'd rather not be reminded of?

[ThePhilosopher04]

195. He'll get the resources if he decides to do it. Donations will roll in.

[pinebox]

71. Ummmm

Bernie's career wouldn't be over in the senate if he did lol He is an (I) in VT lol

Bernie has lots of resources, that's why he is out fundraising Hillary. Look at the grassroots movement.

Nader? Nader got 2% of the vote. Sorry but Bernie isn't Nader.

can you show us where Trump would win a 3 way race please? Anything?

The only ass is the one who shifts her position on everything for political expediency and is under an FBI investigation.

[mythology]

116. There aren't any 3 person race polls.

But it would increase the odds of Trump by increasing the odds of nobody winning a majority of the electoral college and thus going to the House.

[pinebox]

187. It could also increase the odds for Hillary too

Who's Perot?

[joshcryer]

49. Don't read too much in to that speech.

It hit all the right notes but it was no more damning than a post bashing Clinton on DU. It's all a strategy to get as much leeway in the party as he can get. He has to do this by being forceful and strong. Then he gets to the convention, gets to speak, and is allowed to put his stuff in the platform. The unity will happen. And Sanders will walk away from this achieving what he started out to do.

To effect the party overall.

The ugliness of some of his supporters is irrelevant because the ugly ones will not make it inside the convention arena. National delegates would never call a long serving Democratic Senator a bitch, these are people who are party loyalists and who will support their candidate in his wishes.

[pinebox]

65. He has upped the rhetoric against the DNC

and that makes me wonder.

I don't see any party unity in the end which is also another factor for me asking.

Ha! Turn MSNBC on right now they are talking about this

[joshcryer]

75. You really don't remember 2008.

A lot of people don't remember 2008 at all.

There was talk for months that Clinton was going to contest it and fight it out.

Here, this is almost 8 years to the day: http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/clinton-invokes-2000-recount/

Another: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91041027

Instead Hillary Clinton did this: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91041027

And this:

Welcome to politics.

[pinebox]

77. I remember it

and this is no where even remotely similar to it.

[joshcryer]

87. Agreed, Sanders and Clinton have been wearing kids gloves.

Sanders could've won more states if he went after Clinton over the emails. Easily. But he's a man of integrity and you don't use ammo against a candidate that you know can hurt them.

[merrily]

202. The way the Party has treated him and his supporters has more than released him from any obligation.

However, I think you are correct about what he will do. And that may convince some of his followers, but not all of them.

[joshcryer]

203. The numbers will be less than the PUMAs.

As disappointed as many will be about that.

[merrily]

209. I haven't predicted numbers and I speak real Bernie supporters daily, but I doubt you are correct.

Indies who left the party in disgust over New Democrats came back for Bernie. They will not vote for Hillary, of all people. Then, there are lifelong Democrats who voted eagerly for Obama, but were very disappointed. They are not going to vote for Hillary, either. What the numbers are I don't know--and neither do you, so debating it is silly. Even the Hillary campaign, with all its internals, doesn't know.

http://jackpineradicals.org/content.php?205-If-Hillary-is-the-Nominee-Bernie-s-Supporters-Will-Unite-Behind-Her

[joshcryer]

210. BOB are 25% PUMA were 54%.

Twice as big. It's just math.

http://www.vox.com/2016/3/28/11319720/bernie-or-bust-sanders

The denial is going to be real for the next few months. I feel sorry for those thinking Bernie or Bust is anything but bluster and irrelevance.

[merrily]

211. If nothing else, this primary proved debating projected numbers is silly. We'll see soon enough.

Also, using the past as a predictor of the future ignores just how fed up people are after yet another 8 years.

I stood on line at 6 am to vote in 2008 because I just couldn't wait to vote for Obama. I haven't decided what to do in November, but I know I won't be doing that again.

[wilt the stilt]

206. " I won't run a negative campaign"

I think you are running a negative campaign

[joshcryer]

208. I assure you this has been nothing compared to 2008.

As far as campaign rhetoric is involved. It's been very kids gloves.

[wilt the stilt]

214. 2008 is irrelevant

You made the statement he has integrity and I wanted to point out he went back on his word. So where is the integrity

[Demsrule86]

163. dead line to get on the state ballots has passed.

Do you want Trump to win that badly?

[pinebox]

199. You're incorrect :)

See the post here http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1991226

Actually I could say that you want Trump to win even more as Hillary is the weaker candidate in a GE.

[Trust Buster]

2. Who cares ? He's not a Democrat. That's for sure.

[Hortensis]

7. Yes, back to "indy," but not for this election.

[Jester Messiah]

62. Kim Davis was a "Democrat."

How do you feel about her beliefs? Or is the label all that matters?

[casperthegm]

66. Not a Democrat?

If the definition of a Democrat is someone who supports fracking, trade deals that send our jobs overseas, regime change and no-fly zones, embracing Wall Street money, opposes Glass Steagall, opposes free college, and opposes healthcare for all....then no, Bernie is not a Democrat.

To address the question posed by the OP; I think it's possible that he runs as an independent. I think the national convention will help determine that. If DWS and the gang continue their policies, filling the vast majority of committee chairs with pro Hillary people and working to exclude the voice of the other half of the party, then yes, I think we could see an independent run. And the party would only have itself to blame.

[RKP5637]

81. What does that mean? He's more of a traditional democrat than most democrats today! n/t

[jzodda]

148. Actually he's a TRADITIONAL Democrat

He's running as a new deal democrat.

So for me he's one of the few true blue Dems out there.

FDR may not even recognize many Dems today politically. He would certainly identify with Bernie.

Bernie didn't leave the Dems, they left him.

[renate]

220. I agree

When I proudly call myself a Democrat, his ideals are what I have in mind.

[firebrand80]

3. Ballot access

He would have had to get started months ago

[pinebox]

5. Isn't there only 5 states he wouldn't be on?

I think it's 5?

[firebrand80]

12. Still, you have to plan ahead of time

Many Deadlines are within the next couple of months. Every state has different rules, it's not really possible to decide you're going to do it a few weeks out.

[pinebox]

28. That's true

but honestly none of us know if he already has.
Thanks for your thoughts though, much appreciated

[firebrand80]

40. That would mean he would have been lying

When he said he wouldn't consider running as an Indy.

So far he hasn't said that he's changed his mind, so I take him at his word

[pinebox]

50. No, it means he changed his mind.

I'll disagree with you on that.

[firebrand80]

91. He's certainly entitled to change his mind

But if he's been working behind the scenes to get ballot access as an Indy while maintaining his public position that he won't, then that would make him dishonest. It would also mean that he's dishonestly using the Democratic primary process to advance his own agenda.

Again, I don't think he's doing this, I take him at his word that he won't

[pinebox]

200. "His own agenda"

That is an interesting term because at its core, Bernie's agenda is one which directly reflects FDR; it's what Dems used to stand for.

[Kip Humphrey]

93. voter suppression, anti-democratic tactics, probable vote flipping per exit polls, every dirty

political tactic in the book plus some thrown against him, near complete lockout of Bernie delegates to the major DWS-DNC convention committees... Those circumstances?

Oh, and yes, Bernie can get on the ballot in 45 states AFTER the convention. Only 2 states would bar him, Louisiana and Texas - two states he would not win anyway.

[cannabis_flower]

108. Don't you think

that we would have heard if the Sanders campaign had been collecting signatures to get on the ballot.

In order to access the ballot nationwide, it is estimated that an independent presidential candidate in 2016 would need to collect more than 880,000 signatures. California is expected to require independent candidates to collect 178,039 signatures, more than any other state. Tennessee is expected to require 275 signatures, fewer than any other state.

https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_access_for_presidential_candidates#Election_dates_and_filing_deadlines.2C_2016

I haven't heard anything and I get Sanders' tweets.

[pinebox]

143. Possibly yes but possibly no

Especially when...... http://www.salon.com/2016/04/25/jill_stein_pens_open_letter_to_bernie_sanders_green_party_presidential_candidate_invites_sanders_to_cooperate_on_political_revolution/

[John Poet]

134. Only Texas and South Dakota have 'sore loser laws' which

apply to candidates who ran in a presidential party.

However, if Sanders were to jump to the Green party as their candidate, he would have an instant ballot line in a large number of states. There have been some overtures...

[femmedem]

6. No, I think he wouldn't risk making a Trump presidency more likely. And regarding his delegates:

I know that in my state, his national campaign is trying to ensure that delegates won't go rogue or be loose cannons.

[pinebox]

9. I'm not sure myself

I'm a little on the fence with this. I suppose time will tell. Did you see his speech last night in Cali? Wow

[femmedem]

31. Missed it, but I am going to listen later today.

Thanks for letting me know it's a wow.

[pinebox]

32. It is something else

[femmedem]

36. Who knows, perhaps after listening I'll change my mind regarding his plans. n/t

[pinebox]

51. Video now in my OP

[RKP5637]

84. I saw part of it. Very powerful and great! n/t

[joshcryer]

54. His delegates are the ones that are actually involved politically.

The people who made the 900 signature petition at the NV convention but were unable to submit it because there was loud protesting at the front of the hall. Those people who went to twitter condemning the uncivil behavior and expressed their embarrassment and apologized for it.

You're not going to be sending a guy who called a long serving liberal senator a bitch. Not a chance in hell.

[Trajan]

95. Uncivil behavior

For an undemocratic process ....

What's worse?

[femmedem]

185. I have a friend here in CT who hopes to be a delegate.

He told me he had spoken on the phone with someone from Bernie's national campaign who very much wanted the Bernie delegates to remain committed Democrats, to not be Bernie or bust, and to not do anything to reflect badly on the campaign.

[Renew Deal]

8. I hope he does it

Hillary will beat him twice

[Hortensis]

11. :)

Thanks for the chuckle. I'm pretty unhappy with him myself.

[pinebox]

13. Hahahahah Sure!

[B Calm]

16. Say hello to President Trump if he did. He would never do it, but

enjoy whatever your smoking, it must be some good shit!

[pinebox]

20. I'm in Colorado :)

We don't put people in jail here for smoking
Unlike Hillary who supports such actions.

I am guessing you missed Bernie's speech in Cali last night.
No reason to be condescending because someone on an internet forum asked a question either.

[B Calm]

29. I was responding to Renew Deal???

LOL you live in Colorado, I'm so jealous. I loved Bernie's speech and thought it was inspiring, matter of fact I sent him another $27 right after the speech.

[pinebox]

34. Came back as a reply to me :)

No clue why.

[B Calm]

46. That's strange, but I think

we can get along. If I ever get to Colorado I would love smoking a fat one with you and then sit back and talk politics.

[pinebox]

55. hahahah I don't smoke myself

but have no problems with people who do.

Only in Denver do you see things like this lol Took this yesterday.

[JTFrog]

110. I'll sell you a clue.

You've needed one since you got here, but I don't give that kind of advice for free.

[zappaman]

136. !!!

[pengu]

14. I don't think he will, but I think he should

I'd vote for him here in Florida. So would my wife and most of the non-republicans in my extended family.

[pinebox]

15. After his speech in Cali last night

this question has been burning in my mind

[pengu]

21. I haven't watched it, but I'll make a point to watch it later

They've treated him and us (his supporters) just awful and unfairly from the get go.

[pinebox]

30. Check it out

That's why I asked the question. It really makes you wonder. I tried finding it online but I don't see it anywhere

[pengu]

37. If you find a link, please update this post

I'm going to look for it later when I'm not at work, but if you find it post it.

[pinebox]

38. I'm looking now but so far no go

[pengu]

53. I see you updated!

I want to watch but I'm at work. I'll watch at lunch.

[pinebox]

57. ya I found it

[firebrand80]

18. Some people can afford a President Trump nt

[dana_b]

160. I was opposed to it until recently

as i don't believe that she can beat Trump anyway and, after the numerous slights to Bernie as well as the blatant election rigging for Hillary, I have begun to believe that if Bernie went Indy, it wouldn't be the end of the world for us EXCEPT I do believe that he may ruin his reputation in D.C. and no one would want to work with him.

[cali]

19. No. Not a snowflake's chance in hell. He's represented me for over 25 years.

That will never happen.

[pinebox]

24. I'm not sure especially after his speech last evening in California

With what he said, this has been in my head.

In fact just this second on MSNBC they are talking about this.

[cali]

45. I am positive.

[pengu]

56. You were wrong about Oregon

We'll see. I think it's very, very unlikely. If this primary hadn't been so dirty I'd say impossible.

[pinebox]

58. I'm not.

I suppose we'll see what happens.

[cali]

70. If he did that, he'd sacrifice his reputation and career.

He'd be despised. And that includes here in Vermont.

[Art_from_Ark]

193. And if he gets screwed over royally in Philadelphia, then what?

[oasis]

61. Joe Scarborough and Mika are promoting a Bernie Indy run.

They are the leading anti-Hillary cheerleaders on cable, with the exception of Fox News.

[puffy socks]

22. Sure

And I wouldn't put it past him judging by his and his supporters actions since he decided to run for president.

And if he does those Bernie supporters sure are going to love that scorched-earth policy they ushered in, but hey let their emotions make the decisions for them. "Stay the course! " They'll scream. No matter the reality of their situation.

"Stay the course " now where have I heard that stupidity before?

[SwampG8r]

99. Stay the course is what Reagan democrats said before they started the DLC

[Jim Lane]

176. I'm happy to answer your question.

"Stay the course " now where have I heard that stupidity before?

Answer: Hillary Clinton, 2008.

[puffy socks]

177. Wrong! bzzzzt!!!!...

It was George W Bush!

Hillary knew when to call it quits..unlike some senators.

[Jim Lane]

180. Check your facts.

You write: "Hillary knew when to call it quits..unlike some senators."

Hillary did not quit until after all the primaries and caucuses were over.

This time around, she at least exhibits more fairness than many of her supporters. She's refused to join in the undemocratic "Bernie drop out" bleating.

[beachbumbob]

23. Only if Bernie hates America enough to see trump elected

I don't think he hates America that much....

[pinebox]

26. I'm not so sure

Bernie isn't Nader. After his speech in Cali last evening, it leaves one wondering.
Personally, I'm on the fence with it. I just wanted to hear others opinions.
Thanks!

[pengu]

42. I think he'd win a 3 way race

[still_one]

82. Do you understand what happens if it is a three way race? The odds increase dramatically that no

one will obtain the required 270 electoral votes in the general election, and the election goes to the House of Representatives, which is republican controlled, where the house of representatives decides who will be the President from the three leading candidates.

Your assessment that he would win a three way race does not seem to put that into consideration.

However, it won't even get to that. Bernie is a person of his word, and he won't run as a third party if he doesn't get the nomination

[pengu]

88. I'd take a Bernie win with the house screwing him over a Clinton or Trump win

Basically, if it's Clinton/Trump I think we're already screwed. I hope he brings the fight, but I agree it is unlikely.

[Codeine]

90. That's beyond idiotic. nt

[pengu]

122. Shrug

Doesn't matter to me what you think. I think this primary is illegitimate.

[baldguy]

92. Supporters of 3rd party candidates have a consistent misunderstanding of the way things work.

That if they get 10% or 20% or 30% of the popular vote then they'll get that same percentage of power. They can't get their mind around the fact that if they don't get a majority, they get nothing. So, they're perfectly happy to pull support from a more popular & better candidate that may not meet their arbitrary standards of purity, thereby casting the election to the ogre on the other side.

So, in conclusion, Fuck Ralph Nader! Just sayin'

[pengu]

124. Nobody, anywhere, thinks that

[baldguy]

125. If people didn't think that, then then there would be no 3rd party candidates.

Yet, here we are.

So, Fuck Ralph Nader!

[aspirant]

114. Is Hills a person of her word or does she evolve?

[BeyondGeography]

25. He has ruled that out

Helping Trump is not him. At all.

[pinebox]

27. In the beginning

but re-read what I said. A lot has happened since then, rigging SD's, Nevada, all that.
Thanks though for your thoughts. I was wondering what people thought

[Merryland]

41. I think it could go either way.

It depends on how low the Clinton campaign wants to go. If he decides his integrity depends on choosing one or the other path, I think he'll choose that path. So if they continue to mock and throw stones at him, they are asking for serious trouble.

[BeyondGeography]

47. Now isn't the time for clear thinking, but it will come

He will be handled the right way and respond accordingly. He has a lot at stake, too.

[Merryland]

126. "he will be handled the right way and respond accordingly"

sounds like a behavioral experiment you're describing...

[pinebox]

147. You noticed that too?

[PowerToThePeople]

43. He has my vote in November.

[djean111]

73. Mine too. n/t

[BobbyDrake]

44. He would lose a significant portion of his fundraising that comes from progressives who

agree with what he says but still consider themselves Democrats. And I don't think his appeal to rightwingers is anything but them trying to mess with the Democratic Primary, so those folks aren't going to make up the difference. His fundraising has already dropped by 40% and an independent bid isn't going to fix that. Mostly because he would have to break his own promise in order to do it, and breaking a promise is not the kind of thing you can turn into an email soliciting more donations.

[pinebox]

63. Interesting thoughts

I'm not sure it would go the way you think though after all the shenanigans the DNC have pulled on him.
I can see him winning a 3 way race. They were just speaking about this on MSNBC a few moments ago.

As far as your assertion about donations.

http://kycir.org/2016/04/26/bernie-sanders-surging-in-kentuckys-donation-dollars/

[djean111]

72. Can you hear the sound of spinning and deflection and misdirection? I can.

[pinebox]

74. It's rather loud

I think they are afraid

[djean111]

69. I think that is wishful thinking. Expressed as "facts".

Everyone I know will keep contributing to Bernie if he runs Independently. Also - I don't know anyone who will contribute a dime to Hillary, work for her, or vote for her. Reddit will vote for Jill Stein rather than vote for Hillary.

I sincerely doubt that any of your post is based on anything but wishful thinking and, perhaps, hoping to squash a little enthusiasm. In any event, I am with Bernie whatever he decides to do, and cannot support Hillary because of the issues.

Bernie breaking a promise? Hillary is a compulsive liar.

[BobbyDrake]

157. "everyone I know" is called an anecdote, which isn't factual in the slightest.

Same with "I don't know anyone who..."

This may shock you, but the nation has more people in it than just the ones you know personally. So...

[djean111]

165. But someone can state with great certainty what Bernie and/or his supporters will do.

Opinion only. Give me a break.

[Maedhros]

151. Good call. [n/t]

[BobbyDrake]

155. The common denominator between you and everyone you Ignore is still you. nt

[aspirant]

115. How dependable are Hills words?

[Jitter65]

67. It is important for him to have Hillary lose so he will encourage his supporters

to write him in.
This continued smear of the Democratic Party as "closed" and not open is ridiculous on its face.
Years and years of Rainbow Coalition, fights for economic justice, welcoming LGBT, immigrants, supporting women and women rights...according to Bernie this doesn't count for being an open party. In Bernie's mind it is only legitimately open if white, right-leaning males are allowed in to determine the Democratic candidate.

Still dissing POCs and those working with him don't even understand that.

[pinebox]

76. Are you for real?

Dissing POC?

Bwahahahahahahahahhahaha! Now that takes the cake.

Tell us who ran a racist ad against Obama at 3am?
Who recently said "CP time" and "Off the reservation"?

No the Dem party isn't open when it has closed primaries. See how that works?

[SwampG8r]

102. Be nice now somebody had to draw the Short Straw

Everyday someone has to pick up all the old memes and run With them if you don't get there in time to get a good assignment this is what you get stuck with

[winter is coming]

79. I see no reason to believe his position vis a vis a third party run has changed, or will. n/t

[dchill]

85. K&R

[TDale313]

86. I'm not able to play it right now...

Can you tell me a little about what you heard him say that made you think he's changed his mind on this? He's been really, really clear that that wasn't on the table.

[pinebox]

139. He completely slammed the DNC

and went off.

A little bit here http://us.blastingnews.com/news/2016/05/bernie-sanders-offers-harsh-criticism-of-dnc-after-being-accused-of-promoting-violence-00924983.html

[gollygee]

89. I don't think so

Bernie has built up a huge and energized coalition. That coalition - which is really pretty much the same group of people as Occupy and MoveOn - can still make waves, but they will have more effect with a Hillary presidency than a Trump presidency. I don't think he'd do anything that might lead to trump becoming president, and he's a smart man and knows that's the likely outcome of him running third party.

I know people think Hillary will shift right back right after the general election, but I strongly don't think so. She and every other Democrat in office sees what's up. This is the future of the Party. We're headed left - Bernie's coalition is largely young people, and as time goes on there will be more and more of them, and young people are very progressive compared to earlier generations. The Democratic Party is going to shift to include them, and will do simply because that's where the votes will be. Hillary will run again in four years so the party will look to 8 years from now - there will be a lot more millenial voters then. Bernie's coalition will have to be acknowledged every step of the way during Hillary's presidency. He got too many votes for his message to be ignored, and he would have gotten way more had we had 8 years more millenial voters. Every Democratic candidate and leader is going to see that.

[djean111]

97. I think that Hillary has already decided to take the Democratic Party firmly to the right.

Your scenario sounds nice, but is sort of wishful thinking. What with Hillary's penchant for war, and the new "trade" deals, there won't be much left in eight years.

The Democratic Party will not shift. Personally, I am out after an August primary.

[Maedhros]

153. We already saw how this played out with Obama.

During the campaign, he saw the groundswell of liberal/progressive support, so he played into it by telling us what we wanted to hear. The second he took office, he reneged on all of it.

Hillary will be no different.

[CrowCityDem]

94. He isn't classy enough to bow out gracefully. He's busy swan diving into the muck.

[SwampG8r]

103. Unlike yourself

[pinebox]

140. And Hillary is classy?

Oooops!

[mikehiggins]

96. Nope. He won't go Green, or Independence or whatever either.

I've been involved in various campaigns over the last 50 years and, frankly, the Democratic primary is nothing like any number of local, state and national elections I've observed.

The "shenanigans" everyone is complaining about, and the problems with "misplaced votes" and all the rest have been common place for decades in this nation. The lies spread by the media have been a crucial part of every campaign since Barry Goldwater dropped an A-bomb on that little girl in the meadow.

Way back when, when this all started with "not good enough, Bernie" I posted a warning to everyone about what was coming down the road. My only mistake was in not recognizing how shameless Camp Weathervane would be, how little regard for the truth they have.

And all I can say at this juncture is that we really should put all efforts, after Philadelphia, into "never Trump. Once that is done the handful of true progressives should refuse to go away, and imitate the Reich Wing's methodology that left them in control of the political infrastructure of this nation at the grassroots level.

The 'net has made it possible for us to be in contact with each other and give voice to the movement that has grown to significance thanks to Sanders' campaign. If we allow it to wither away and disappear THAT will be on us.

[pinebox]

141. I'm not sure

Have you seen this? http://www.salon.com/2016/04/25/jill_stein_pens_open_letter_to_bernie_sanders_green_party_presidential_candidate_invites_sanders_to_cooperate_on_political_revolution/

[Jim Lane]

179. I am sure.

Note that, as reported in that article, Sanders hasn't even responded to Stein's overtures.

[pinebox]

188. But he has :)

http://www.inquisitr.com/3022718/__trashed-256/

[LWolf]

98. I don't think so.

I think he's been pretty clear about that. He doesn't want Trump, doesn't want to be a spoiler, so he won't "go indy."

His supporters, though, are another story. I'm sure some will suck it up, put themselves on life support, and vote for Clinton should she prevail.

Many others will not. They will "go indy," leaving Clinton at her altar.

[pinebox]

189. It's interesting

I can see it happening honestly. A lot has changed and a lot has come forward and let's be frank, Bernie would win a 3 way race because in a GE, nobody has the support he would have.

[LWolf]

191. I don't think he would,

and if he did, I don't think he'd win, but I've been known to be wrong.

So...I had dinner last night with a young, active Republican. We weren't there to talk politics, but he just had to. He said, "I can't believe we threw it away. I mean, we had what...15? 15 possibilities, and we gave it to the worst of them all? This is humiliating. I can't vote for that man. I can't vote for Clinton. This is only my second presidential nomination, and I'm so jaded already I'll be voting 3rd party. "

[redstateblues]

212. Anyone who thinks Bernie wins in a 3 way is delusional

Splitting the Democratic vote is an automatic Trump win

[riderinthestorm]

100. Nope nt

[Nye Bevan]

101. I would like to think that he has more integrity and dignity than that (nt)

[riversedge]

104. Sanders has no integrity after the foolish way he handled the NV chaos.

[brooklynite]

105. You understand that he can't just get more EVs than Clinton and Trump, right?

He has to win an outright majority of 270, or the selection goes to the House of Representatives.

Having lost PA, OH, VA, FL, NY, IL...how does he create an EV majority?

[aspirant]

117. How does Hills get a EV majority in a 3-way race?

She lost Wash., Ore, Hawaii, Minn, Mich, Vt, Maine, RI, Col, NH and most likely Cal. please add those up.

[brooklynite]

156. I'm not endorsing a third Party campaign...

...and saying she'll lose CA is an unsupported stretch.

[aspirant]

171. Do you endorse "cattle calls"?

[brooklynite]

172. For entertainment value? You bet.

Considering the $45,000 I've put into the Democratic Party this cycle, I can space $50 for the GOP Circus.

[aspirant]

173. Does "entertainment" come with principles?

[brooklynite]

174. I'm guessing if I'd given the $ to Clinton, you wouldn't have thought the principles were any better

[aspirant]

175. Principles aren't for guessing

[woodsprite]

107. I don't think he'd do an end run declared as Indy

and I don't think a write-in/draft Bernie push from the people's end would work. Could be wrong about that, but can't see it happening on a large enough scale for him to win the Presidency. On a side note, I hadn't realized that JFK took the PA and MA Presidential primaries in 1960 and FDR took the NJ Presidential primary by write-ins. Kinda cool, but they were primaries.

[JTFrog]

111. Fuck Nader. n/t

[Reter]

112. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service (I was Juror #2)

On Wed May 18, 2016, 08:55 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

*UPDATED* Could it happen? Could Bernie go indy?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511991008

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

From DU's TOS: "Vote for Democrats.
Winning elections is important — therefore, advocating in favor of Republican nominees or in favor of third-party spoiler candidates that could split the vote and throw an election to our conservative opponents is never permitted on Democratic Underground"

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed May 18, 2016, 09:00 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Still primary season. Lighten up, Francis.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster didn't suggest he go indie, but merely asked if he might.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Violation of TOS...this is a site for Democrats!
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster makes very clear up front that he's not supporting a 'Bernie run'. Poster just wants to discuss.

That shouldn't be a TOS violation.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[pinebox]

119. LOL Thanks.

Funny how some don't bother to read

[JRLeft]

113. It's too late. He won't do it. If he was going to do that he should have done it from the beginning.

[pinebox]

190. Actually it isn't

The only states which he wouldn't be on the ballot are Texas and Louisiana, 2 states he wouldn't win anyhow and he can go indy after the convention. It's a very interesting scenario. I don't know, not endorsing it

[SheilaT]

118. Have you been in a coma since last summer?

He's not going to run as an Independent.

[pinebox]

120. Actually

I've spent tbe last 4 months in the hospital. Does your condescending comment make you feel better now? ❤

[SheilaT]

127. Well, I'm sorry that you were in the hospital

and apparently had absolutely no access to any news of any kind, and that you weren't able to log in to DU either.

But a full year ago Bernie made it clear he had no intention of going third party. And it's been brought up umpteen-dozen times here on DU. I'm getting rather tired of these threads.

[pinebox]

129. Here's the thing

Bernie said that a year ago, correct?
Can one change their mind withina year? Of course and we see this on many issues when it comes to Hillary.

Now weigh that in with how Bernie has been treated by the establishment and his speech last night with what he said and I think it's a possibility. In fact there's a thread right now in GDP where someone says he's criticizing Obama again.

Bernie is his own man, beholden to no party. It's one of his draws.


I think the question bears pondering, expecially after what's happened lately.

[SheilaT]

133. I believe has has said it

more than just one time a year ago.

Bernie understands quite clearly that an Independent run for President is a loser's game.

[pinebox]

135. I'm not too sure

There's a first for everything.

[ViseGrip]

121. I heard it. He is right, they blocked him. He has a right to see if he can win.

I believe he can, minus democratic party shenanigans.

He....owe....them.....nothing. The party is a disgrace!

[aspirant]

123. A 3-way race

Last edited Wed May 18, 2016, 11:30 AM - Edit history (1)

Hills has had the full primary season to dig up all the dirt on Bernie and what surfaced? Do anyone think Trumpie has better diggers?

The race would turn into a slugfest between Trumpie and Hills with all their nasty baggage. Bernie will then be the choice above the slime, for the sane among us.

That's the point, making the sane the majority.

[MuseRider]

128. Doubt it

he said he would not and I am certain he meant it.....at the time. As we go on I still doubt he will do it. He has said he would try to get his supporters to back Hillary because he thinks Trump will be very very bad for the country and I guess that means he would be worse than Bernie thinks Hillary will be. I am almost 100% sure most or many, enough to perhaps make a difference, of his supporters will not go with her. They probably would have 3 or 4 months ago but it seems unlikely to me now.

As to the question, I do doubt he would do that. No matter what all the Hillary supporters think he did not go into this until he knew that Warren was not going to run. I am not entirely sure he ever really wanted to do this. It seems to fit him, he is certainly working harder than most everyone I have ever seen run for office. The way this election is going he could change his mind. I still doubt he will but I would not blame him at this point. Not at all.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

130. Maybe. I'd vote for him if he did.

[Waiting For Everyman]

131. No, but he has the power to torpedo HRC in an instant if he did.

Maybe that fact ought to be kept in mind a bit more. So long as he doesn't do it, he is doing her the VERY BIGGEST FAVOR POSSIBLE. (And an equally huge favor, not mentioning the FBI.)

Does she act at all grateful? Hell NO. And that tells a lot about who she is, who her followers are, what the Dem Party has become, and what this election is about.

He could pull the plug on her anytime he wanted.

Now keep smearing and lying about the man. (not you pinebox, generally meant)

All he needs to have is a "fuck this" moment.

He's like the guy holding the pin in the grenade. Go ahead, tackle him to play these stupid games.

[SheenaR]

132. Cali is the resident Sanders expert

being in Vermont I trust her judgment that he will not run.

I know what he has said. And I know some will jump ship if he did.

But if he thinks he can win outright (which is a possibility, without the House getting involved), and he thinks that his progressive agenda will be shelved by the presumptive nominee, I will not judge him for running to further the cause he is championing.

Note to Jury: I am not supporting that candidacy. I am rationalizing the decision.

[nemo137]

137. God I hope not. 3 way race = decided by the house = hello President Trump

Our crappy electoral systems basically rules out any plausible third-party campaign.

[anotherproletariat]

138. Yes...go indy now! And keep that whole violent chaos thing going...it sends a great message. nt

[jzodda]

145. My take is this

He won't do it for several reasons.

1. It would not be easy at this point to get ballot access. If hes not on the ballot in most states it defeats the purpose. Would he be running to win or play spoiler? Also it would be quite expensive to run 3rd party. I don't believe he would qualify for matching funds as a 3rd party candidate.

2. Spoiler....A Bernie run would almost certainly lead to a Trump win. That is why the Donald keeps encouraging him to run 3rd party. The only person it helps is Trump.

3. The future...Bernie is now a power to be reckoned with and it should give him a power base to work on some of his agenda items in the Senate. If he runs 3rd party he will lose that new found clout.

[panader0]

149. All this talk of a three way race leaves out the possibility

of a four way race. Many Repubs have been floating the idea of a more traditional R candidate.
That would get real interesting.

[pinebox]

150. I forgot about that

Mark Cuban has been floated

[HooptieWagon]

152. IMO he has justification to.

The whole DNC machine has put up roadblocks and cheated since the beginning, in order to deny Sanders a fair chance and ram Clinton down our throats. I don't see any reason for Sanders to stand by his word. IDK if he will run third party... will be tough getting on many states' ballots. If he does, he'll get more popular votes than Clinton, perhaps even Trump.

[brooklynite]

158. "He'll get more popular votes then Clinton..."

remind me what the tally is today?

[HooptieWagon]

161. He'll get half the Dems and 2/3 of Indies....about 40% in 3-way race.

Clinton can go chasing Republican votes like she's slready indicated. I like Bernies chances against a Republican (R) and a Republican (D).

[brooklynite]

167. The sad thing about dreaming is that eventually you wake up...

[HooptieWagon]

168. It's unlikely he runs third party.

But if he does, he's running against two RW candidates with historically unprecedented unfavorable ratings. He'd do just fine if he managed to get on all 50 ballots. I don't think he'd get 270 Electoral Votes, and would lose a House vote, but he would get a plurality of the popular vote.

[Waiting For Everyman]

223. I agree he has justification to.

On top of what has already happened... with the DNC suddenly yesterday changing the remaining state rules to favor their choices, and canceling the exit polls for all remaining races, and after the party's lying about Nevada on mass media, I think he has more than enough reason to be justified.

[Time for change]

159. It definitely could happen

And I hope it does.

The reason he gave initially for not doing it was that he didn't want to take votes away from Hillary and thereby contribute to a Republican winning the election.

But nationally he is much more popular than Hillary. He will be a very strong candidate, whereas she is a very weak one. So it very well may be that his running will substantially decrease the likelihood of a Republican win. Polling on a three way race must be done to see where he stands, and if it appears more likely that his running will decrease rather than increase the chances of a Republican win, he must run.

[jzodda]

164. How in the world does that happen?

Republicans have (as of now) one choice.

Dems would have two! Do you think Republicans will vote for Sanders? Its so far fetched that its unimaginable.

Centrist Dems and some Repubs for Clinton

Left leaning Dems and independants for Sanders

So Trump will do what he has been doing, which is win with less than 50% again!

[PFunk1]

162. Not yet. But it's now a possiblity.

Especially if the Repugs run a challenge to Trump (which seriously seems to be in the planning stages) and/or (if you believe the scuttlebutt) that Clinton w/DNC help will declare victory on June 7 no matter it she wins the pledge delegate vote or not. If that happens then all bets are off (and say hello to president Trump). However a strong Sanders win in California will make it very hard for Clinton/DNC to do that. So now I guess it all depends on Cali.

[SheilaT]

169. Keep in mind that a person can't just say,

"Well I'm running as an Independent" and expect to be on the ballot in every state. Most states require some kind of petition with lots of signatures, and we're coming up against some of the deadlines.

Petition signature requirements for independent presidential candidates, 2016. Here's a link that gives you that information: https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_access_for_presidential_candidates

You'll have to scroll down a bit to find the chart that gives state by state deadlines and number of signatures needed to get on their ballot. So if Bernie were to run as an Independent he would have to have started gathering signatures already.

But more to the point, he understands that if he runs as an independent, Trump is elected. Is that what you want?

[nadinbrzezinski]

170. Nope

1.- He is a man of his word

2.- Sore looser laws

3.- deadlines

[okieinpain]

178. power is a powerful drug n/t?

[ucrdem]

181. He might, and it would do some damage, and of course he'd lose. Would Hillary?

Doubtful. But Bernie is either going to do it or threaten to do it so I say just do it and get it over with already.

[Demsrule86]

182. No, it is way too late

He can't get his name on the ballot.

[pinebox]

201. He could on 99% of them

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1991226

[Pastiche423]

183. I am voting for Bernie

no matter which letter is behind his name.

[trudyco]

184. The question is could he get 270 electoral votes

There's 538 total.
Trump is beatable. Clinton could shrink in support as the investigation grinds on and he already beats her.
The Green party might let him carry the baton for them, so he can get on the ballot this late in the game i almost all states.

But if he doesn't get 270 then the 12th amendment kicks in, right?
Then the House of Reps gets to decide.
That would not be good.

So he needs to be able to get 270. I could see how his views on this may have evolved considering how the MSM and Clinton campaign and DNC have treated him.

[redstateblues]

213. Splitting the anti Trump vote gives it to Trump

The idea that Bernie could win a three way is delusional

[redStateBlueHeart]

186. Nah, no way he'd risk a President Trump

n/t

[Baaadger]

192. This is a great article that discusses Bernie going Green...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/bernie-sanders-real-political-revolution-could-happen-this-fall-sanders-green-partys-presidential-candidate/5522636

[pinebox]

205. Hey welcome to DU :)

Honored to be your 1st post was a response to my OP.
That is is hell of an article. I am very tempted to post it but I know it would be alerted on. Hmmmm. I just may though.

[Baaadger]

215. Thanks

I was banned previously for no apparant reason. I suspect it was done by Hillary supporters becapse I was too pro-bernie

[ThePhilosopher04]

194. One can only hope. The time is right and ripe for a true progressive party in the country.

It's now or never in my view.

[frustrated_lefty]

196. He won't

but he should.

[pdsimdars]

198. He could work out a deal with Jill Stein where she'd be VP and Bernie Pres.

I am assuming that the Green Party is registered in all 50 states.
THAT would make it interesting.

[pinebox]

207. Check this out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1991226
I'm NOT condoning this, it's strictly for news and conversation.

[valerief]

204. I kinda want him to, but if he does, his votes (and voters) will be stolen just like they have been

in the closed primaries. But maybe I'm just too damn cynical.

[apnu]

217. He could go indy, but he'd be an instant liar for it.

He's on record saying he's a Dem now and forever. Going indy would make him a very big liar. His integrity that so many hinge on here would be shot.

But then we'd find out real fast if people stroking Bernie's integrity are for real or not.

[pinebox]

218. Look how much all that lying has hurt Hillary

I get what you're saying though but at the same time, given the climate currently and how things have changed, would it be lying or would it be a change of ones mind?

[barrow-wight]

221. I've seen so many "questions" about third party this past 24 hours.

No, no promotion at all. Just "questions."

I suppose you gotta use this platform to advocate third party while you still can. From what I read, it won't be allowed much longer.

Still, it's disappointing to see people on a site for Democrats being used to scorch the earth of any hope of a democrat winning the general election.

[Waiting For Everyman]

222. I changed my mind. Now I think it could happen.

Last edited Sat May 21, 2016, 06:07 AM - Edit history (1)

Since the DNC just arbitrarily changed the rules for the remaining Primary state conventions to allow Clinton and the Party to make decisions behind the scenes and crush dissent, and secondly it's been announced there will be no more exit polls done (it isn't worth it because Clinton's the nominee), I wouldn't be surprised to see Sanders run on his own in some manner.

I think we're being set up for some major vote stealing, especially in California, and continued repression on through the Convention.

If that happens, on top of the outrageous way this Primary has already been conducted, and the lousy, biased treatment of Sanders by those in the party, he might see things differently than he did going into this election.

When the other side doesn't keep the deal, bets are off.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512017702

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512011092

[reformist2]

224. Yes, the hammer is coming down, everywhere. My post showing two raw videos of NV was just hidden!

When raw video clips are banned for being "Trump propaganda", you know real free speech is not going to be allowed here. Not one criticism of anything about Hillary or the DNC is going to be allowed here.

[Waiting For Everyman]

227. They hid it because they know they're wrong

and won't admit it.

I hear ya, though.

[pinebox]

225. I agree with you. It's getting crazy.

[ucrdem]

226. He won't, but he'd help Hillary win if he did:

But he won't.