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lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:26 PM May 2016

So, let's say Hillary gets to the convention with a majority of PDs, and under pressure

From Sanders and his supporters, the SDs hand the nomination to him.

Do you believe that under this scenario, he has a chance in the GE?

Besides looking like a candidate who could not win on his own and was selected by "the establishment", how do you think PoC would feel and react? It would be like spitting on them, showing then that their votes (which went overwhelmingly to Hillary, putting her at the top) don't count.

How could they support Sanders under these circumstances?

Or Sanders expects to win without PoC?

102 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
So, let's say Hillary gets to the convention with a majority of PDs, and under pressure (Original Post) lunamagica May 2016 OP
Good question, I hope you get some thoughtful answers. nt eastwestdem May 2016 #1
Thank you. I hope so too lunamagica May 2016 #2
He wins because he doesn't need the south Skink May 2016 #3
I'm not sure if you are serious here...He doesn't need the south? PoC only live in the south? lunamagica May 2016 #8
Someone probably told him that. Btw, "skink," Hortensis May 2016 #76
I live in Ohio Demsrule86 May 2016 #79
Ahhh....a purist. Red Mountain May 2016 #92
Hate geography much? tia uponit7771 May 2016 #85
How Do Superdelegates Work? Here's What You Need to Know RogerM May 2016 #4
Bernie's hypocricy with the superdelegates is sad and probably reflective of the type of person he MariaThinks May 2016 #5
Very well stated. Thank you lunamagica May 2016 #17
+1. Hortensis May 2016 #77
I'm still holding out the DNC has made all this up to keep us engaged or something uponit7771 May 2016 #86
Since this all "Let's pretend" griffi94 May 2016 #6
I agree with everything you wrote. Thank you lunamagica May 2016 #23
But voters under 45 are the future of the Democratic Party. guillaumeb May 2016 #51
At the moment they're the present of the Democratic Party griffi94 May 2016 #54
That means nothing to me Demsrule86 May 2016 #80
Let's not say that. It won't happen. MineralMan May 2016 #7
I know that it won't happen. But I read post after post claiming it can happen lunamagica May 2016 #12
Its pure fantasy workinclasszero May 2016 #49
This message was self-deleted by its author lunamagica May 2016 #9
This is so silly. cali May 2016 #10
Yes it is. But some think it's possible. There's already a reply saying how it can happen lunamagica May 2016 #16
Not gonna happen. TDale313 May 2016 #11
Thank you for you reply. I agree with most of it, except for the end lunamagica May 2016 #18
+1. The only time they made a difference was to Hortensis May 2016 #78
The super delegates want to support the establishment candidate Txbluedog May 2016 #24
Oh, he'll win with PoC vs Trump Flighty McFlight May 2016 #13
PoC deserve respect. If they are disrespected in this way, and see that their votes don't have no lunamagica May 2016 #19
So you're saying democratic PoC would turn on the party? bobbobbins01 May 2016 #40
They might well come out in lower numbers, Hortensis May 2016 #82
Take that same statement and replace PoC with Independent voters RichVRichV May 2016 #61
ummm... no PoC (blacks, asians, Hispanics) outnumber dem leaning voters by far... not at all equal uponit7771 May 2016 #87
Even if it did happen (it won't), then no. He wouldn't win the GE. VulgarPoet May 2016 #14
Thanks for your reply. I sincerily hope Hillary proves you wrong. lunamagica May 2016 #20
So do I, but given what she's supported in the past, I'm not holding my breath. VulgarPoet May 2016 #36
Not going to ever happen SheenaR May 2016 #15
Then, party loyalty only applies to Clinton? lunamagica May 2016 #21
Not sure where you got that SheenaR May 2016 #47
I posted that because so many in the Sanders camp say they will never vote for her lunamagica May 2016 #65
I don't like Bernie Demsrule86 May 2016 #81
Hey, the superdelegates have nothing to do with the popular vote and they cannot be "pressured" procon May 2016 #22
LOL, I was ready to go on your first parageaph. Good post lunamagica May 2016 #27
Actually even those PoC will vote for him nadinbrzezinski May 2016 #25
He'd lose the general election. Badly. KingFlorez May 2016 #26
Under those circumstances, most will lunamagica May 2016 #28
Guess that answers the drum beat of "will Bernie supporters support HRC"? libdem4life May 2016 #30
Yeah, I think he'd do quite well! Jester Messiah May 2016 #29
I don't see this happening under these circumstaces. PoC and others who voted for her lunamagica May 2016 #32
This message was self-deleted by its author TM99 May 2016 #59
AA have voted in numbers greater than 70%, for Hillary, and not just n The south lunamagica May 2016 #64
This message was self-deleted by its author TM99 May 2016 #89
I think you're spinning that too hard. Jester Messiah May 2016 #60
I bbelieve whoever has the most PDs should get the nomination lunamagica May 2016 #66
The dem indpendent voter numbers are NO WHERE near the PoC dem vote, that's delusional uponit7771 May 2016 #88
Under pressure? You mean Under the circumstances? Under the duress of The Investigation(s)? silvershadow May 2016 #31
So far, everyone has understood what I meant. I'm sorry to see you are struggling to understand lunamagica May 2016 #34
I oh know that. What do you think is forcing Bernie to stay in this long? nt silvershadow May 2016 #37
I don't kbnow, but my guess is that he believes the SDs will give it to him lunamagica May 2016 #67
PoC will vote for Bernie without hesitation if he's the nominee. BillZBubb May 2016 #33
So why haven't they so far? And why would they when they get dissed and disrespected this way? lunamagica May 2016 #41
There are plenty of PoC outside the south. BillZBubb May 2016 #42
PoC have been consisten in voting for Hillary in large numbers all over the country lunamagica May 2016 #43
Geez, I said that. Yes PoC all over the country vote. BillZBubb May 2016 #44
Yes, it was after they started to lose. And SDs have never gone against the will of the voters lunamagica May 2016 #46
Oh BULL FUCKIN SHIT!!! uponit7771 May 2016 #90
Native americans, latinos and pacific islanders already support Sanders. lumberjack_jeff May 2016 #99
Could you post any polls on that? tia uponit7771 May 2016 #102
Good question mcar May 2016 #35
Meaningless speculation: what pressure would cause the SDs to shift? brooklynite May 2016 #38
For one, FBI pressure. BillZBubb May 2016 #45
NOT going to happen... LenaBaby61 May 2016 #39
Yes, I read that. The first of many who are sure to follow lunamagica May 2016 #70
No. Bernie has no chance for the GE. misterhighwasted May 2016 #48
I think this is his one and only foray into the Democratic party. I pretty much expec he will go bac lunamagica May 2016 #68
I agree. Apparently he's still a reg Indy in VT for his Senate seat , so misterhighwasted May 2016 #84
Democrats would be insane to nominate Sanders Gothmog May 2016 #50
I think that claiming an advantage based on polls six months away from the GE is absurd lunamagica May 2016 #71
Democrats won't hand the nomination to BS. He lost fair and square - and BIG. Squinch May 2016 #52
He lost in a YUUUGE way. Honestly, he doesn't have any reasonable claim to th nomination lunamagica May 2016 #72
If the person who has the most pledged delegates, and the Super Delegates ignored that, the still_one May 2016 #53
Thankfully, there's not a chance of it happening, because you are right, lunamagica May 2016 #73
I don't think that will happen. Maedhros May 2016 #55
Not a chance. The other side has been holding back, wait until the republicans unleash on him. George II May 2016 #56
I agree. Sanders has aa LOT of baggage, and he doesn't have neither the experience nor the lunamagica May 2016 #69
I think he personally would do OK with it Cosmocat May 2016 #101
It would depend entirely on why the superdelegates backed Bernie. winter is coming May 2016 #57
I sigled out PoC supporters because they,(Esp AA voters) have been targeted for voter suppression lunamagica May 2016 #63
Presuming he is in the GE by whatever scenario... apnu May 2016 #58
And clearly communicate the message that citizens votes don't count BainsBane May 2016 #62
Great analysys, BB. Spot on. lunamagica May 2016 #74
Your post is an outstanding analysis. greatlaurel May 2016 #96
POC wouldn't refuse to support Bernie in the fall Ken Burch May 2016 #75
Captain Kangaroo could get the nomination too The Second Stone May 2016 #83
PoC are Bernie's natural allies, I've never understood the tendency to support HRC... davidlynch May 2016 #91
Interesting question Red Mountain May 2016 #93
There's a major reality disconnect here: POC are not one thing. lumberjack_jeff May 2016 #100
It would be a disaster. hrmjustin May 2016 #94
K&R workinclasszero May 2016 #95
Good points. greatlaurel May 2016 #97
The only scenario in which this would happen is if the SDs are convinced by extraordinary events lumberjack_jeff May 2016 #98

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
76. Someone probably told him that. Btw, "skink,"
Thu May 19, 2016, 07:41 PM
May 2016

religious people don't only live in the South either.

Red Mountain

(1,704 posts)
92. Ahhh....a purist.
Thu May 19, 2016, 08:46 PM
May 2016

So you'd prefer to watch Trump win than vote for Sanders?

Why?

I only ask because this is a question asked often of Sanders supporters with similar sentiments.



RogerM

(150 posts)
4. How Do Superdelegates Work? Here's What You Need to Know
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:32 PM
May 2016
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/first-read-democratic-race-isn-t-close-you-think-it-n576716

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/how-do-superdelegates-work-here-s-what-you-need-know-n554136
How Do Superdelegates Work? Here's What You Need to Know
by MARK MURRAY and MARIANNA SOTOMAYOR

Superdelegates are back in the news - with Bernie Sanders and his campaign believing that they're a path to winning the Democratic nomination, and with Hillary Clinton's campaign seeing them as their true firewall in this contest.

Who are these superdelegates? What role do they play? Can they switch sides? How many have done so in the past? How did the 2008 Obama-vs.-Clinton superdelegate fight play out? And do they actually have super powers? (Fortunately or unfortunately, the answer to that last question is no.)

Below are the answers to everything you wanted to know about superdelegates:
Superdelegates are unpledged delegates to the Democratic convention, meaning that they aren't beholden to the results from primaries and the caucuses (the way pledged delegates are). They are, for the most part, current and former Democratic politicians. Former President Bill Clinton is a superdelegate; so is current Sen. Bernie Sanders.

They make up 15 percent of all delegates (714 out of 4,765) - down from 20 percent in 2008. And they are free to support the presidential candidate of their choice at the convention. According to NBC News' latest count, Clinton leads Sanders in superdelegates, 460-38. One catch: Superdelegates have to be present at the convention for their vote to count.

Among pledged delegates, Clinton leads 1,288 to 1,042.

MariaThinks

(2,495 posts)
5. Bernie's hypocricy with the superdelegates is sad and probably reflective of the type of person he
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:33 PM
May 2016

Truly is.

Hillary has more votes
Hillary has more pledged delegates

Based on that she has won.

Bernie wants to sway the superdelegates to change the will of the people and give him the nomination. Which they won't. So then he will complain that the superdelegates are the problem. He has lost in everyway.

If he things contests were rigged he should sue immediately in the court system.

Where were the Bernie supporters in the last election when the African American voters were disenfranchised by proven and admitted republican policies to restrict voting?

A wet blanket has been thrown down on the bern.

griffi94

(3,731 posts)
6. Since this all "Let's pretend"
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:34 PM
May 2016

No Bernie wouldn't win in the GE
In fact the Democratic Party would be in serious danger should
Hillary have the most pledged delegates and those primary results be set aside.

It'd be a direct slap in the face to women and POC who make up 2 of
the strongest pillars of the party.

It would also be a slap in the face to the majority of
Democratic voters over 45.

Those 3 groups are the core of the party.
Not Bernies most hardcore supporters who want to see the primaries set aside.
The hardcore Bernie fans can't really damage the party since they were
either never party members before now or such a small minority in the party
that their numbers are negligible.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
51. But voters under 45 are the future of the Democratic Party.
Thu May 19, 2016, 05:39 PM
May 2016

From a 65 year old voter who enthusiastically supports Sanders. As do very many people of my generation.

griffi94

(3,731 posts)
54. At the moment they're the present of the Democratic Party
Thu May 19, 2016, 05:43 PM
May 2016

Good for you that you like Bernie.

Hillary still out perfrms him with voters 45+ women and POC.

Demsrule86

(68,348 posts)
80. That means nothing to me
Thu May 19, 2016, 07:58 PM
May 2016

Delegates and the will of the voter matters to me...screw with that and you lose.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
7. Let's not say that. It won't happen.
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:35 PM
May 2016

The super delegates, to a person, know their own minds and will not bend under pressure from a candidate with less than a majority of pledged delegates. That simply will not happen.

I can't believe anyone really thinks that's possible.

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
12. I know that it won't happen. But I read post after post claiming it can happen
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:44 PM
May 2016

Even Sanders saying he should be the nominee because of polls, not because PDs, or popular votes, sounds to me like he wants the SD to pick him no matter what.

So, my question to those who see this as a possibility, lets say you get your wish...now what?

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
49. Its pure fantasy
Thu May 19, 2016, 05:13 PM
May 2016

I can't believe anyone would be naive enough to believe that would ever happen.

Especially since Sanders fans have been harassing supers for months and Bernie's surrogates have called them corporate whores and a danger to democracy.

Response to lunamagica (Original post)

TDale313

(7,820 posts)
11. Not gonna happen.
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:41 PM
May 2016

I say that as a Bernie supporter. The Superdelegates want to support the establishment candidate. If she is ahead in pledged delegates as well, there's a snowballs chance they'd switch en masse.

The only scenario where I can envision them not backing her is if something really unforeseen happened that completely disqualified her- and frankly even then I suspect there are contingency plans. They do not want Bernie.

Far more likely they would have ignored the will of the people of Bernie'd ended up with the majority of pledged.

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
18. Thank you for you reply. I agree with most of it, except for the end
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:48 PM
May 2016

so far, the SDs have neer gone against the will of the voters. They won't start now

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
78. +1. The only time they made a difference was to
Thu May 19, 2016, 07:49 PM
May 2016

support the candidate with the majority of the popular vote over the candidate who had more pledged delegates. In other words, they erred on the side of more pure democracy.

 

Txbluedog

(1,128 posts)
24. The super delegates want to support the establishment candidate
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:54 PM
May 2016

Given then Bernie is giving the middle finger to the establishment every chance he gets, does anyone really think that he will be the Democratic nominee if Hillary was unable

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
19. PoC deserve respect. If they are disrespected in this way, and see that their votes don't have no
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:50 PM
May 2016

value, forget about their support

bobbobbins01

(1,681 posts)
40. So you're saying democratic PoC would turn on the party?
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:15 PM
May 2016

That is a pretty disrespectful statement alone.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
82. They might well come out in lower numbers,
Thu May 19, 2016, 08:02 PM
May 2016

as would other minority power blocks. But perhaps more; I don't know. They're acting fairly monolithically and feeling their very real power. They demonstrated their power by choosing one candidate pretty definitively and might choose to punish an attempt by the candidate they rejected to bypass them. Otoh, that could give the White House to Trump.


RichVRichV

(885 posts)
61. Take that same statement and replace PoC with Independent voters
Thu May 19, 2016, 06:29 PM
May 2016

and you will see the crux of the situation the party is in. The real question is, are PoC more or less likely to vote for Bernie than the Independents to vote for Hillary? We need both in the GE.

You don't win the GE without a good chunk of the Independents and the party has done a wonderful job of chasing them off for years.

VulgarPoet

(2,872 posts)
14. Even if it did happen (it won't), then no. He wouldn't win the GE.
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:45 PM
May 2016

Since that's not going to change, most I can do is vote down-ticket, and prepare for eight years of getting buggered by the system, because if Trump gets the GE, we're going to nuclear war, and if Clinton gets in, it'll be roughly eight years before I can find a decent paying career in the States in the field I'm studying for thanks to the H1-B program. Maybe we'll get a breath of fresh air in eight years, if we're around that long.

SheenaR

(2,052 posts)
15. Not going to ever happen
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:45 PM
May 2016

But since I have been lectured ad infinitum about party loyalty and not handing the election to Trump, I would only assume he would win because every true blue Clinton supporter would back the Party nominee as it is their duty as a Democrat.

SheenaR

(2,052 posts)
47. Not sure where you got that
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:56 PM
May 2016

You see, a person writes an OP with a question and then commenters answer said question, which is what I attempted to do.

So your deduction comes from thin air.

Demsrule86

(68,348 posts)
81. I don't like Bernie
Thu May 19, 2016, 07:59 PM
May 2016

but if by some miracle he had more pledged delegates...I would vote for him. But not if he steals the primary and is selected as the nominee.

procon

(15,805 posts)
22. Hey, the superdelegates have nothing to do with the popular vote and they cannot be "pressured"
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:53 PM
May 2016

by Sander's people to votes for him. How do you propose to "pressure" them anyway? This is nothing but unrealistic speculation that serves no purpose other than another piece of fan fiction. Its not like the superdelegates have a constituency, so what's your plan... intimidation, violence, death threats?

All kidding aside, you know its called the Democratic Party Convention for a reason, yeah? Its all about the power of the Democratic Party to determine the best interests of the Party to get their nominee elected. Sanders knows the rules, and he's lying to your face if he's telling you anything different.

The superdelegates are the powerful Party bigshots. They are lifelong Party members who owe everything to the support they've received from the Party. They set the Party rules. With the few known exceptions, they will support the Party.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
25. Actually even those PoC will vote for him
Thu May 19, 2016, 03:55 PM
May 2016

they will vote for her, but she is going to have a heck of a time getting independents. His positives are higher than hers with those same independents.

But hey, nominate her, I got my popcorn ready. And that base wild fire is not going anywhere, no matter how much fire retardant you throw on it.

 

Jester Messiah

(4,711 posts)
29. Yeah, I think he'd do quite well!
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:01 PM
May 2016

He'd get so many more independents than Hillary, and so far as I know there's no Hillary-or-Bust movement. All the Hillarites I've seen so far live in mortal dread of Trump and seem to consider a vote for anyone but the Dem nominee a vote for Trump, so you know they'd all be on board. The Bernie-or-Bust folk would be satisfied, the Hillarites would be on board, and the independents would pour in. It's a win-win-win.

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
32. I don't see this happening under these circumstaces. PoC and others who voted for her
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:08 PM
May 2016

putting her at the top. To have the SDs hand the nomination to Sanders would be a slap in the face. They will be shown that their votes don't count, so they won't bother anymore.

I wonder, would you really be happy with Sanders getting the nomination this way? Being hand-picked by The Establishment"?

Would you be proud of that?

Response to lunamagica (Reply #32)

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
64. AA have voted in numbers greater than 70%, for Hillary, and not just n The south
Thu May 19, 2016, 07:06 PM
May 2016

Saanders got trounced in NY by black and Latino voters, same in Ohio bad other places.

And would you please point out where he took the Latino vote? I'm always hearing how Sanders is taking away Latinos from Hillary, but so far, election results prove the opposite.

BTW, I'm Latina



Response to lunamagica (Reply #64)

 

Jester Messiah

(4,711 posts)
60. I think you're spinning that too hard.
Thu May 19, 2016, 06:23 PM
May 2016

I stand by my assessment, and think it would be to the good of all. The SD system is what it is. Should it only function to favor Hillary?

 

silvershadow

(10,336 posts)
31. Under pressure? You mean Under the circumstances? Under the duress of The Investigation(s)?
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:02 PM
May 2016

Under the duress of the real likability numbers and polling being exposed? What? Tell me what you mean...

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
34. So far, everyone has understood what I meant. I'm sorry to see you are struggling to understand
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:12 PM
May 2016

Last edited Thu May 19, 2016, 07:25 PM - Edit history (1)

so, let me help you.

By "Under pressure" I mean the pressure SDs have been getting from the Sanders camp to with. Embarrassment via nail, FB posting or phone calls with threats to vote them out or worse.

Was that clear enough for you

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
67. I don't kbnow, but my guess is that he believes the SDs will give it to him
Thu May 19, 2016, 07:27 PM
May 2016

or than Hillary will be indicted and will withdraw.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
33. PoC will vote for Bernie without hesitation if he's the nominee.
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:08 PM
May 2016

Why shouldn't they, he's a real progressive and not a money grubbing corporatist. He'll actually fight to make their lives better, not the lives of the Wall Street crowd.

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
41. So why haven't they so far? And why would they when they get dissed and disrespected this way?
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:17 PM
May 2016

"the South doesn't count"

They voted overwhelmingly for Hillary. If the Establishment slaps them in the face by taking victory away from them, you don't think there will be a reaction?

You sure take them for granted. That is just wrong

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
42. There are plenty of PoC outside the south.
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:33 PM
May 2016

In the electoral college, the Democrats can't rely on the south. That's a fact. Winning primaries in the south, for Democrats doesn't translate into victories in the GE.

I can't speak for PoC but like any groups they vote for a variety of reasons. Some just like her, I'm sure. Some think she has the best chance to win the GE. Some like Bill and through her, they get a reprise of the Clinton years. Some voted for her because of name recognition. Some voted for her because she's a woman. Some voted for her because she is a known quantity. Etc. Etc. and combinations of those things.

I don't take anyone for granted. But I do know PoC are smart enough to realize Bernie offers a lot.

I thought the Hill people were pushing the validity of the superdelegates? Now you are saying if they decide the outcome people have a right to be pissed?

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
43. PoC have been consisten in voting for Hillary in large numbers all over the country
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:37 PM
May 2016

not just the south. This shouldn't be ignored.

And I thought Sanders and his people were completely against SDs..well, they were, but then they started to lose

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
44. Geez, I said that. Yes PoC all over the country vote.
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:43 PM
May 2016

No one is ignoring it. But a big part of her "3 million more votes" did come from the south and those votes won't help in the GE. Is that really that hard to understand?

Sanders people were against super-delegates. Then Brock propagandists started yelling those are the rules. When you run you play by the rules. Why don't you play by rules, you can't change them just for you!

So, Bernie said OK. We'll try to win superdelegates. It wasn't "when they started to lose". It was after being attacked by Hillary's slime squad. Now you want to attack him for doing the very thing the Hillary campaign said he should do? Those are the rules right?

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
46. Yes, it was after they started to lose. And SDs have never gone against the will of the voters
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:49 PM
May 2016

There is no reason to start now.

As for the "3 million" argument? then the red states Sander won don't count either

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
99. Native americans, latinos and pacific islanders already support Sanders.
Fri May 20, 2016, 01:14 PM
May 2016

People of most colors support him.

brooklynite

(93,850 posts)
38. Meaningless speculation: what pressure would cause the SDs to shift?
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:14 PM
May 2016

Elected Officials: vote for Sanders, and by the way, we still won't vote for you....

Party officials: We think you're corrup; vote for our candidate?

LenaBaby61

(6,965 posts)
39. NOT going to happen...
Thu May 19, 2016, 04:15 PM
May 2016

IMHO.

In fact, 1 Super changed allegiance from Bernie Sanders side and went to Hillary Clinton's side this week.

misterhighwasted

(9,148 posts)
48. No. Bernie has no chance for the GE.
Thu May 19, 2016, 05:08 PM
May 2016

Zero.
Doesn't matter what he does. He will NEVER EVER carry the Dem Party Name behind his name again.

It was a brief affair that turned out horrible abusive, with threats of death. In this case the D's will cut him loose and hopefully he never again has the opportunity to charm his way in, only to quickly become a destructive, controlling, sociopathic style partnership, where without careful intervention, someone may have been seriously harmed. Glad the threats are being investigated.

This was a deadly & abusive partnership for the Dem Party to open its welcoming front door to.

Rule changes will be made & new security locks put in place in the Vetting of future Dem candidates.
Lesson learned.

Glad Hillary & the Dem Party has moved on.

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
68. I think this is his one and only foray into the Democratic party. I pretty much expec he will go bac
Thu May 19, 2016, 07:30 PM
May 2016

"I" after his name after he concedes.

misterhighwasted

(9,148 posts)
84. I agree. Apparently he's still a reg Indy in VT for his Senate seat , so
Thu May 19, 2016, 08:29 PM
May 2016

this last 10 months or so as a Dem should have taught him a lot about how Party unity works. And why it works as well as the amount of loyalty, dedication & time it takes to build a solid Party that cannot be usurped by nefarious intentions.
If anything is to be gained, it has shown the Dem Party where the weak points exist.

That's a positive as they move one day soon, to further strengthen the solidarity of the Dem Party, & all those it cares for under its very big tent.

Our great Democratic Party has always been the people's Party, while the Republican Party has always been the Party of elitism, exclusion & money.

^H
2016

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
50. Democrats would be insane to nominate Sanders
Thu May 19, 2016, 05:35 PM
May 2016

Sanders would be a horrible general election candidate https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/democrats-would-be-insane-to-nominate-bernie-sanders/2016/01/26/0590e624-c472-11e5-a4aa-f25866ba0dc6_story.html?hpid=hp_opinions-for-wide-side_opinion-card-a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

Sanders and his supporters boast of polls showing him, on average, matching up slightly better against Trump than Clinton does. But those matchups are misleading: Opponents have been attacking and defining Clinton for a quarter- century, but nobody has really gone to work yet on demonizing Sanders.

Watching Sanders at Monday night’s Democratic presidential forum in Des Moines, I imagined how Trump — or another Republican nominee — would disembowel the relatively unknown Vermonter.


The first questioner from the audience asked Sanders to explain why he embraces the “socialist” label and requested that Sanders define it “so that it doesn’t concern the rest of us citizens.”

Sanders, explaining that much of what he proposes is happening in Scandinavia and Germany (a concept that itself alarms Americans who don’t want to be like socialized Europe), answered vaguely: “Creating a government that works for all of us, not just a handful of people on the top — that’s my definition of democratic socialism.”

But that’s not how Republicans will define socialism — and they’ll have the dictionary on their side. They’ll portray Sanders as one who wants the government to own and control major industries and the means of production and distribution of goods. They’ll say he wants to take away private property. That wouldn’t be fair, but it would be easy. Socialists don’t win national elections in the United States .

Sanders on Monday night also admitted he would seek massive tax increases — “one of the biggest tax hikes in history,” as moderator Chris Cuomo put it — to expand Medicare to all. Sanders, this time making a comparison with Britain and France, allowed that “hypothetically, you’re going to pay $5,000 more in taxes,” and declared, “W e will raise taxes, yes we will.” He said this would be offset by lower health-insurance premiums and protested that “it’s demagogic to say, oh, you’re paying more in taxes.

Well, yes — and Trump is a demagogue.

Sanders also made clear he would be happy to identify Democrats as the party of big government and of wealth redistribution. When Cuomo said Sanders seemed to be saying he would grow government “bigger than ever,” Sanders didn’t quarrel, saying, “P eople want to criticize me, okay,” and “F ine, if that’s the criticism, I accept it.”

Sanders accepts it, but are Democrats ready to accept ownership of socialism, massive tax increases and a dramatic expansion of government? If so, they will lose.

Match up polls are worthless because these polls do not measure what would happen to Sanders in a general election where Sanders is very vulnerable to negative ads.

still_one

(91,946 posts)
53. If the person who has the most pledged delegates, and the Super Delegates ignored that, the
Thu May 19, 2016, 05:43 PM
May 2016

Democratic party would implode, and I believe in that scenario the Democrats would lose the GE

It isn't going to happen though

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
73. Thankfully, there's not a chance of it happening, because you are right,
Thu May 19, 2016, 07:38 PM
May 2016

I'd be the death of the Democratic Party

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
55. I don't think that will happen.
Thu May 19, 2016, 05:44 PM
May 2016

Her Superdelegates were in the bag for her before the primary began. They are, after all, Democrats, and if there is anything a modern Democrat abhors, it is an actual Progressive.

There is no place in the Democratic Party for Progressives and Liberals - they've made that abundantly clear.

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
69. I agree. Sanders has aa LOT of baggage, and he doesn't have neither the experience nor the
Thu May 19, 2016, 07:33 PM
May 2016

temperament to deal with attacks in a cool, reasonable way.

It would get really ugly, really fast

Cosmocat

(14,543 posts)
101. I think he personally would do OK with it
Fri May 20, 2016, 01:20 PM
May 2016

Differently from Hillary, more direct, but that would be OK, too.

BUT, the fantasy that he somehow would not face the same level of deranged bullshit Hillary faces would be exposed.

Bernistas go into a frenzy if you don't genuflect the man, they would lose their $hit 1,000 times over once the republicans turned theri focus to him.

And, he would get sullied like every other democrat who is public enemy number one - Bill, Gore, Kerry, Dean ...

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
57. It would depend entirely on why the superdelegates backed Bernie.
Thu May 19, 2016, 05:59 PM
May 2016

First, I don't see the supers, as a whole, deserting Hillary unless they have good reason to believe his chances in the GE are significantly better than hers.

Second, it's offensive and dumb that you're singling out Hillary's PoC supporters, because I'd expect all of her supporters to not be happy.

Third, a lot of the superdelegates already indicated that voters' voices don't count when they pledged their support to Hillary before a single vote was cast, back before Bernie was even in the race. It's okay for them to pre-emptively ignore voters' wishes for Hillary's sake but unthinkably horrendous for them to change their minds?

Like it or not, Hillary's not matching up well against Trump, compared to Sanders. If her numbers continue to slide, the supers are going to be worried. It's also possible that the FOIA case or the FBI investigation could turn up something incredibly damaging. If that happens, yes, the supers might well desert Hillary. A lot of people wouldn't be happy about it, but many would eventually acknowledge that Hillary's chances of losing the GE were too great to risk it.

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
63. I sigled out PoC supporters because they,(Esp AA voters) have been targeted for voter suppression
Thu May 19, 2016, 07:00 PM
May 2016

and disenfranchisement like no one else.

Of course, all of her supporters will be unhappy (quite an understatement), But considering the past history with Voting and the AA population, the injustice to them stands out more.

apnu

(8,722 posts)
58. Presuming he is in the GE by whatever scenario...
Thu May 19, 2016, 05:59 PM
May 2016

... He's going to struggle.

He'll have to face the Republican noise machine shouting "Commie!" at him all day like it was 2004 and the Swiftboaters were on the attack.

He also lacks the Obama coalition, at the moment, that is clearly behind Clinton. He will spend a lot of time defending and explaining his policies to a very skeptical electorate. In order for any of his ideas to work, he'll have to run on raising taxes. Last guy to do that was Mike Dukakis, have you seen the the 1988 EC map?

Bernie will struggle badly, especially if he continues to bellow at Democrats for doing it wrong. His pitch doesn't win him favors with Democrats, this primary is very clear on that. He's been getting by on support from new blood he's brought into the party, and struggles to convince party members already in the tent.

Bernie will have a hard go of it in the GE. The one saving grace he will have is the same that Hillary has: Trump. He's so crazy and so repulsive that both candidates with their issues have a very real shot at winning in November.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
62. And clearly communicate the message that citizens votes don't count
Thu May 19, 2016, 06:33 PM
May 2016

polls by corporate media outlets should determine elections, not the votes of lowly citizens. Nevermind the fact their argument about superdelegates has changed completely since earlier in the cycle. They have shown that the rights of mere votes are inconsequential in comparison to Bernie's quest for power and his insistence that he is entitled to rule over the people without the consent of the majority of voters, people he has spent this primary cycle insulting at every opportunity.

If you're a registered Democrat, over 45, disabled, or dare to vote for anyone but him, you are intrinsically inferior to him and his supporters who are entitled to rule over the majority. He is working to impose government by the minority in order to advance himself politically, and if that means eroding equal voting rights and overturning the results of popular elections, he has absolutely no problem with that. What are our rights compared to his sense of entitlement? We are mere citizens. He is Bernie. He matters. We do not.

This all makes sense when you think about it. He has never felt qualifications, competence, or achievement standards that should apply to him. A guy with the worst record of accomplishment in the entire Senate decides that he should be president. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/bernard_sanders/400357/report-card/2015 He doesn't need to study up on his own policy positions or even be able to answer simple questions about how he will implement what he preaches about day after day. He shouldn't be expected to know about or even feign an interest in foreign policy, refuses to assemble a foreign policy team, or prepare himself for the job in anyway. He doesn't even need to win the support of the electorate. He is simply entitled to power because of who he is, not by virtue of accomplishment. He has consistently refused to meet with progressive activists, as we saw last week when he blew off the HIV/AIDs activists. Voters tell him they have no health care and he walks away, completely disinterested, then gets on stage and makes empty speeches. He announces it's an "outrage" that Gitmo hasn't been closed, despite the fact he has cast at least three votes against closing it. He feeds his supporters one slogan after another, shows no concern for policy, and repeatedly misrepresents his own record.

The majority of voters have rejected him and instead supported Clinton. But those voters simply do not matter. The poorest Americans, people of color, the elderly, disabled, women are "establishment." Closed primaries are an outrage but the caucus system that allows for the lowest voter participation in the country--a mere 3.7%--is good because caucuses benefit him. They after all are predominantly white, and whites favor Sanders, which makes them superior. Voters and groups that don't support him are "establishment", despite the fact the vast majority will never in their lives approach his income level. And of course like Mitt Romney, he's too important to release multiple years of taxes. He has helped ensure politicians act with less transparency by setting a standard that Trump has decided to follow in refusing to release his own taxes. His supporters enthusiastically justify the double standards that characterize Sanders campaign, agreeing with Bernie that's he's too important to be held to ordinary standards--whether releasing taxes or obeying basic campaign finance law. Those double standards mirror his determination that the votes of the majority simply don't matter as much as the 3 million less who have voted for him.

I have never in my life seen such blatant hypocrisy. He has positioned himself against my voting rights and made clear he sees me as less important because I'm a Democrat and over 45. He cannot disappear from the political stage soon enough for my liking. As long as I live, I will not forget what he has done to undermine voters rights and the Democratic Party in his effort to boost himself and return America to a time in which the majority were denied equal rights and economic opportunity. It's one thing to see that shit from Republicans, but when someone who pretends to be "progressive" and uses the Democratic Party works so hard to undermine the rights of voters, it is absolutely unforgivable.

greatlaurel

(2,004 posts)
96. Your post is an outstanding analysis.
Fri May 20, 2016, 01:07 PM
May 2016

I understand the youngest voters falling for the empty promises, especially for the first time voters for POTUS. Older people should have a better developed ability to do critical analysis. For these people to continue to push right wing propaganda and back the empty promises of the sanders campaign demonstrates a lack of reasoning, failure to understand they have fallen for the decades of right wing propaganda against the Clinton's and the Democratic Party, in general or they really are people who are not interested in a functioning democracy.

Thanks for the post!

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
75. POC wouldn't refuse to support Bernie in the fall
Thu May 19, 2016, 07:41 PM
May 2016

And he has been gaining among POC voters since Super Tuesday.

The Sanders campaign never refused to try to appeal to POC voters, and our positions on the issues POC care about are as good as HRC's.

If the POC argument was(as it generally was)that HRC was the more electable candidate in the fall, they aren't going to sabotage the Democratic Party's chances in the fall if Bernie is the nominee.



 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
83. Captain Kangaroo could get the nomination too
Thu May 19, 2016, 08:12 PM
May 2016

the fact that Bob Keeshan is long dead doesn't prevent the convened delegates suspending the rules from the floor and nominating Captain Kangaroo.

davidlynch

(644 posts)
91. PoC are Bernie's natural allies, I've never understood the tendency to support HRC...
Thu May 19, 2016, 08:41 PM
May 2016

It may be that the premise is wrong, the OP assumes that Bernie has a problem with PoC. That may be a sampling error, or possibly just an issue with communication. Bernie clearly stands with PoC in a big way.

Red Mountain

(1,704 posts)
93. Interesting question
Thu May 19, 2016, 08:53 PM
May 2016

I don't think it exists in reality but if it does what problem exactly do PoC have voting for Sanders?

I've heard it suggested often enough but never any details....

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
100. There's a major reality disconnect here: POC are not one thing.
Fri May 20, 2016, 01:15 PM
May 2016

Latinos, native americans and pacific islanders all support Sanders.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
98. The only scenario in which this would happen is if the SDs are convinced by extraordinary events
Fri May 20, 2016, 01:12 PM
May 2016

i.e. revelation that a US spy was caught and executed because of secrets hacked from her insecure personal email server.

In other words, only if it becomes apparent that Clinton has zero chance.

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