It's difficult to escape the conclusion that Hillary, most establishment dems,

[cali]

the MSM talking heads and many Hillary supporters want to grind Sanders, his issues and his nascent movement into dust. It's hardly a secret that the dem establishment over the last 25 years has been hostile to the left. The few exceptions make it that much more obvious.

Call it institutional behavior. People adapt to the institutions they are a part of far more often than change them. Institutions hew to the status quo. So do an institution's members.

There's a fury on the Clinton side that at least matches that on the Sanders side. It manifests itself differently in part because they hold the institutional power. But it's just as obvious in the comments intended for wide dissemination. It's clear in endless pundit blah blah. It drips with the flavor of contempt that many of us on the left recognize.

The left hasn't been respected or heeded by the party for decades. Reagan cowed them. Clinton made them feel better and espoused a new way for democrats to get and hold power. Fear of being labeled liberal became a way of life. The contempt for the left has become entrenched within these democratic circles.

The primary has widened the gulf.

I grew up in a very dem family. My father was a big Carter supporter and threw him two fundraisers. My whole family went to the inauguration. (I got drunk and tripped over George Wallace's wheelchair- sorry, I digress). My mother was a delegate to two national conventions, high up in the League of Women Voters and a tireless supporter of the party. My parents gave quite generously to the DNC and democrats. So I was a dem from the age of 8. Never any doubt in my mind that I'd always be a dem.

Now I no longer think of myself as a democrat. It's been a few months and I feel a bit.... naked, I guess. It was part of my identity. Now I think of myself as an independent. I'll still vote for democrats and for members of the VT Progressive Party whenever I can, as well as independents like Bernie.

I've lost my faith, so to speak.

[Ned_Devine]

1. Right here with ya'

[cali]

3. It's sad, really.

[onehandle]

2. Fewer Democrats care about the loser of the primary in 2016 than in 2008.

And Obama won.

No gulf, whatsoever.

[cali]

5. That seems irrelevant to the op, but I guess you're making

some connection.

[SCantiGOP]

4. OP first sentence could not be more wrong

It reflects your passion and commitment to a candidate, not a reflection of current reality.

[cali]

6. Then offer a coherent refutation. You haven't.

[SCantiGOP]

7. I stated my opinion

No sense wasting both of our time with arguments that will not change anyone's mind.

[cali]

9. Ah, so you can't.

[snowy owl]

20. Oh, god, that's the problem! They don't know why they are what they are. No logic.

No there there. That's what is so frustrating to me. No there there.

[JPnoodleman]

12. How so? On Policy the DNC has been a Neo-Liberal slightly Conservative part. n/t

[seabeyond]

8. All the ugliness, whining, complaints, false accusations, attacks and insults to Clinton, Democratic

Party and the Democratic base? Ya, he earned it, he owns it.

[cali]

11. Lol. Splendid cogdis

[seabeyond]

13. No. I do not hold two contradictory beliefs. One pretty consistent one. I think my post is clear.

[libdem4life]

17. Huh? That's a response to the OP? Fail.

[Recursion]

24. cogdis means "cognitive dissonance", and is the unconscious attempt to reconcile

two contradictory beliefs, which are held without the thinker being consciously aware of their contradiction.

[libdem4life]

29. I know. I've started calling it Pretzeling. Winding around and around,

with whatever position, then baked for hardness and salted for flavor. Perfect description to me. Earlier someone reminded me of Bush choking on the pretzel, so maybe I'm on to something.

[seabeyond]

51. If you know what cognitive dissonance is, then your reply to me makes no sense.

[libdem4life]

54. Cognitive Dissonance was not my term or my response.

[seabeyond]

55. I was talking to someone who accused me of it. You jumped in with a comment that had nothing to do

with the conversation.

Talk about wtf.

[snowy owl]

21. And you respond to well written post with emotional attacks. Well, I'm not surprised.

[seabeyond]

53. Lol, emotional attacks? It is the reality Sanders sits in. He created, he owns.

[snowy owl]

57. Get specific. Instead of another generalized emotional rant, tell me his emotional attacks?

Can you? What's he said that is emotion and you should be able to think of many since you describe such behavior of his reality. I'm ready to read. My take is he's been talking issues to the point where people are weary of them. So please entertain me with his emotional reality.

[seabeyond]

66. Play your "emotional" game with some else.

[snowy owl]

81. Absent logic, emotions rule I guess.

[JimDandy]

59. Right back at you all in the Clinton camp...and doubled...but my statement is true, yours is not.

(That's about the level of your post)

[seabeyond]

67. Wow

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I grew up in Mexico where we voted, well pretended to vote,

but I never got invested with a party or a pol. When I became a citizen I immediately registered with the democratic party, because it is the party of the people... and we gave to Dean and Obama... and worked for both to the extent we could. that died with the Single Payer never to be had discussion. That was 2011

You will adapt, I am an independent... and there are more and more of us. Both parties are bleeding voters, and it is starting to matter. Change will come, but am afraid I will be dead by then. This year the shenanigans removed the last doubts that the system is purely an oligarchic system with heavily manipulated elections. So I am back to my attitude at 18. I might "vote" but who I voted for, that will be determined by who counts my vote.

By the way you almost tripped over Wallace's wheelchair. The kids here probably went. George WHO? That in itself is a wonderful story.

Oh and as to Carter, I had a chance to share some beans and tortillas with him years, decades ago, Habitat for Humanity, long funny and tragic story, that actually ended well. He also told me to never completely forget that idealism, though he said it will be tested. Damn that man is wise. I guess that is why we cover issues. We sort of believe some people might care.

[cali]

15. Thanks. I didn't almost trip. I did a full sprawl and I was wearing

a long black silk moire wrap around skirt that flew wide open. The Secret Service guys were right there. It was wildly embarrassing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I bet

[JimDandy]

61. Those wrap skirts were all the fashion rage back then, for a season.

I had several I wore out in high school and college

[libdem4life]

14. Good post. I think it speaks pretty eloquently for a lot of us.

I'm going to hang with the Dems until at least the GE. But I understand the feeling of being an orphan...not belonging or even able to contribute any more.

I converted from a John Birch upbringing to a flaming, bleeding heart Liberal in college and never looked back. And I won't let them take my identity there, either. They've crapped on the term Liberal, and now Democrat.

I am hoping that some of the nascent talk of a Progressive Party begins to take some sort of shape. Only problem with that is that it's hard for a new party to get on the ballot in each state. I don't know the process, but I do now know that only the Libertarian Party qualifies. If they can poll at 15%...they currently poll at 10%...then they can be on this ballot.

We must continue to identify the Progressive Movement...and yes, it's definitely a split. But one thing I'm pretty sure of, if it starts to happen, it will be available on DU. I'm not going to let them have that either so I hope people turn disappointment or disillusionment into action and stay.

[JimDandy]

63. I found out today the United Progressive Party is up and going.

And it's headquarters are here in my beautiful progressive state of WA that went 72% for Bernie!

Their logo is the wonderful Birdie Sanders finch.

[libdem4life]

89. Think that would be an excellent post.

If not, please PM me any info. I'll also look online.

[JPnoodleman]

16. I hear you....

I registered as a Dem at 18, just as my dad was a Dem his entire life. This primary has turned both of us into Independents. I have convinced my girlfriend to registered, but she like me and my father are unaffiliated. After 9 years as a registered Dem I've decided I don't want that sort of affiliation.

Since the DNC offers very little, I am a bit freer now with how I will vote since the old loyalism has crumbled.

[snowy owl]

22. Yes, loyalty. It takes a long time for loyalty to finally give way to open mindedness and change.

[oberliner]

19. Hillary agrees with Bernie on 90 percent of issues

Possibly more.

[snowy owl]

23. A good thread gone amuck with a fib. He cites differences. She's changed - is it real?

And as I've said before, humans share 99% of their DNA with chimps but there are still differences.

[oberliner]

33. There are certainly differences

I just think sometimes we forget their commonalities.

They both support equal-pay bills, both favor universal pre-kindergarten education programs, and both support paid family leave.

They both recognize the issue of climate change, they both want to raise the minimum wage, they both support overturning Citizens United.

They both support the DREAM act and pathways to citizenship.

They both support background checks on guns. They both want to abolish private prisons.

If you look at the Republican side, they don't even recognize climate change is real for a start.

[riderinthestorm]

49. Hillary's climate change proposals are too little, too late

Might as well nominate a Republican climate change denier. The effect will be the same.

The planet's in its 11th hour. We need aggressive global leadership now for any chance.

Unfortunately Hillary’s tepid "incrementalism" is a catastrophe.

[JPnoodleman]

25. On TPP/TTIP, War, Health Care Services, College Debt, and Financial regulation....? Not so much.

So on anything of substance..... they disagree but They both agree Trump is the Devil.

[snowy owl]

39. For me, biggest is regulation. Without enforcement for good regulation, we might as well have none.

Clean water, corporate accountability for toxic waste, organic food, we haven't had a farm policy for years and that's huge, ocean regulations, that's what makes a country top tier. But we can't pry the money away form the politicians and the rich. And they'll all flee to Europe for clean place to live because they are doing all the things we started to do until big money and greed took over.

[libdem4life]

31. I'm going to need another keyboard...I was taking a drink?>?>?

In a parallel universe.

[oberliner]

35. Gay rights, women's health issues, climate change, immigration, gun control

Raising the minimum wage, respect for transgender rights. I mean you can dismiss these issues, but have you looked at the Republican side lately?

[snowy owl]

40. But we are talking about differences between left candidates.

You have to talk issues and find which are important to both sides instead of just comparing issues. We obviously disagree on which are the important ones. And trust. That is my difficult bump in the road for Hillary. She's such a war hawk and has never really focused on domestic issues. Bernie's whole argument is we have to work on domestic issues. Yes foreign policy is important but right now we have huge domestic problems that need to be addressed. That's a big difference.

[oberliner]

44. Understood

There are definitely differences between the two, but I just don't think the gulf is as wide as people make out sometimes. And especially not as wide as the gulf between our side and the Republicans, which is a vast chasm.

As Bernie himself has said: Hillary on her worst day is an infinitely better candidate than any GOPer on their best day.

Sometimes it seems like folks forget about that.

[libdem4life]

50. I don't dismiss them...they are similar in some ways.

To me the chasm is over the Class Issue. I don't think it's political much any more, and your post emphasizes that for me. We have talked a lot about it and it's almost a meme, but the Haves and the Have Nots are so far apart...as are the candidates who represent them, that the rest comes in a far second. (Bernie is the very first in my long lifetime that even tried to become a lightning rod for the unwashed masses, aka Middle Class turned Peasants.)

Those speeches, the garish money grubbing, fabulous wealth...where did it come from? From broke to wealthy in a couple of decades? They had to become the class they carry water for...the Goldman Sachs of the literally world. The secret transcripts. Remember Mitt's 47 percent? Nothing new under the sun. The Haves.

Bernie's folks averaged $47. The Have Nots. There is no way that can be brought under one tent.

I wish I had some answers, or feel good words to console myself...but I see absolutely no way sides can NOT be taken. Oligarchy/Medieval Castes/Plutocracy...we are almost to the "let them eat cake" level.

And yes, I've surely noted the Republicans. And they are old and tired and their party is in upheaval as well. They just didn't have the foresight to come up with Super Delegates to overrule the people when deemed necessary...to prevent their voters from having their say. That's the definition of Oligarchy.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

64. maybe last week

but next week it may be different

[Fumesucker]

76. That number will fall sharply when Hillary pivots to the right for the general

Which is what this push for Bernie to drop out is all about, Hillary can't authoritatively take a right turn with Bernie yapping at her heels. She's obviously uncomfortable and stilted talking all the leftist claptrap, she will be much more comfortable in her own skin when she's back in her natural environment.

Even Americans might notice if she evolves to the right too far too fast so getting an early start is critical.

[RufusTFirefly]

80. A human and a chimp share approximately 98 percent of their genome

Yet no one would ever confuse the two.

[IdaBriggs]

92. She lies to much to be believed. Plus war and FBI issues.

Please stop attempting to say that a person with no integrity is just like a person with integrity. No one with any sense believes you.

[anigbrowl]

26. I'd respect the left more if it didn't engage in such wilful ignorance

A lot of radical leftists are almost as ignorant as tea party folks on things like law and economics, and resist efforts to communicate information. It's hard to partner with someone who refuses to consider any point of view but their own. A lot of ideological people insist on viewing everything on a left vs. right axis without considering additional political spectra such as ignorant vs. better informed. I find it difficult to hold conversations with people who are too far left because they are terrible listeners and many of them are not too hot in the critical thinking department either. It's depressing considering that Democratic party's tradition of support for public education.

[libdem4life]

34. I have one word...Yikes. Take it from me, with attitudes like that

The Left could give a flying fig what you think and I can see the issue with communicating with folk. And the depression is on you.

[anigbrowl]

45. Sorry, I've run out of patience with being diplomatic

I dunno, maybe it was the 20th or 30th time I was accused of being a corporate shill by complete strangers who insisted I must be getting paid to hold different opinions from them.

[snowy owl]

42. Really, give me an example of such an exchange because my view is the opposite.

And calling us willfully ignorant as tea party folks is pretty indicative of the insufficiency of your arguments. Yours is an attack and nothing more. Do you have anything other than attacks to offer? Your post does not engender respect and does nothing to invite honest conversation.

[anigbrowl]

47. Why should I bother?

There's so much of it around here every day and I don't care about persuading people any more. I'm done taking the high road, since it has largely been a waste of time during this campaign.

[snowy owl]

58. Typical reply. You will not win your arguments if you have none.

[anigbrowl]

62. I am not interested in winning an argument with you

For months (this primary season) I've been arguing using patience, logic, citations and so forth, and I'm done with that now because most of my efforts in that regards have been wasted on people who had zero interest in substantive discussion and just wanted to repeat talking points and accuse me of being a paid operative for the Hillary campaign or somesuch. I am no longer going to invest any effort in being delicate with others' feelings.

[Maedhros]

70. Wow. Pretty damned arrogant.

Yuck.

/ignore list.

[cali]

86. So what about my op do you believe indicates that

I'm ignorant or lacking in critical thinking skills?

Perhaps I'm mistaken but your post seems like an oblique shot at the op.

In any case, I'm not a product of public education

[SpareribSP]

27. The whole thing has been very eye opening to me.

I'm a younger guy, but my family was also strongly dem. I've always identified as a Democrat, but definitely this primary has been hard and I've learned a lot.

I think that party becoming more liberal is inevitable, though. It's simply in the demographics, us young-ins are unabashed liberals.

[cali]

30. My hopes reside with you guys.

My son is 29. I really like his worldview

[BootinUp]

28. At this time in May it is entirely normal for bad feelings

between primary camps. Completely normal.

[cali]

83. This isn't about bad feelings. I have always said Hillary will be the nominee

[leveymg]

32. The split has been visible since the Vietnam War and dates back to '48

The party is a shifting ad hoc coalition of temporary allies of convenience and long time enemies. We have nothing at the moment positive to hold us together except a shared fear and loathing of Trump and the GOP. That isn't enough, anymore.

[libdem4life]

38. Interesting. I was born in '48 and was active in the 60s.

Seems like each generation is shifting...good word. I hope the loathing of Trump holds together until after the election. My belief is that those that aren't worried, aren't facing reality.

[leveymg]

41. Part of the same historical pattern has been that major wars start under Democratic Administrations

Meanwhile, it has been the Republicans who exploit them to strip away constitutional protections and repress dissent. That pattern may have changed and we could see the worst of both in coming years.

[snowy owl]

43. I believe the shifting started with Reagan and intensified when DLC invited Wall Street to table.

Yes, really if you want to go back far enough 46? - the triumph of business putting Truman on the ticket instead of Wallace was a major break with FDR policies. Not that old but I've certainly read up on it. But Reagan and Clintons really created a huge divide in a short time.

[leveymg]

48. The Democrstic Party split 3 ways in '48 and could do so again.

I think the GOP is fracturing, as well. A four or six party system might actually work and be more representative.

[snowy owl]

82. I'll have to read further I see. I posted 4-party: extreme right, centrist R, centrist L, Progressiv

Real progressives. The NDP in Canada took a long time to become influential and it took a strong leader who has died prematurely and now they are struggling again. Leadership is all. Bernie is strong but can he continue given his age? I wonder if centrist r and centrist l would unite?

What we need is open primaries and a shorter campaign season. We pay these people good salaries to do the work of government. Campaign seasons should be mandated and shorter. National primaries from state to state on the same day. The system is rigged and exclusive parties no longer reflect the democratic process.

[leveymg]

87. Agreed

[Algernon Moncrieff]

68. Technically '44

'44 is when FDR removed Henry Wallace and put Truman on the ticket. Wallace would go on to run against Truman in '48.

[BzaDem]

36. I don't get that sense at all.

I didn't look much at DU until very late this cycle. I was amazed to see such a different world on DU than outside DU. I'm a Clinton supporter (largely for electability reasons), and I don't dislike Bernie at all (nor do I dislike most of his ideas). I know many supporters of Clinton and Bernie, and none of them hold ill will towards the candidate they aren't supporting (or their supporters). Then I come here, and see... let's just say it's somewhat like a parallel universe.

I suppose in retrospect, I shouldn't have been surprised, given the primaries in 2008. But I was totally surprised. I guess part of the surprise was due to how 2008 was much closer. Clinton was far enough ahead this time around that I didn't expect this kind of acrimony on DU. (I similarly wouldnt have expected this kind of acrimony if Bernie was this far ahead.) Silly me.

[snowy owl]

46. What made you vote electability over value? Or does she reflect your values?

I think electability has been shown to be high/higher with both candidates(Clinton/Sanders) although Trump is is seemingly rising in the polls on the right. Perhaps voting values is a better indicator of electability than trying to predict which horse will win the race. My opinion is that more republicans will vote for Sanders but Trump over Clinton. But I'm no prognosticator.

[snowy owl]

37. Grew up in Rep/Dem family. Dad entreprenaur was Republican when R's represented small business

Times were different. I voted Nixon my first election but turned to democratic side with more education and maturity. Never looked back. No I'm a green sometimes but usually democrat. I truly know my values and I vote the candidate. That will never change. Plainly, I grew up and loyalty, celebrity took back seats to my values and hope for our country.

Want to talk about institution. I often say we've lost our institutional memory. Ever since FDR and the depression, we knew what was important for our country. Citizens remembered what brought about the depression and they never waivered in doing for the common good. Reagan changed that. Under Reagan's mesmerizing leadership. so many people - esp. those who were firmly now in the middle class - started to think it couldn't change and they started acting like the rich. And with so many new millionaires - actors, creative types, business and financial people earning so much more, the tide changed and we became a greedy country. New generations idolized money over the hard work and values of their parents. That's what happens when institutional memory is lost. Your post puts that in a new light for me because I realize now that so many generations only remember the Reagan years and have no comparison or memory of what came before. I think we will have to endure another depression or severe oppression from the upper classes before enough of us finally change from loyalty to realization that we on a track that will lead to another gilded age.

Bernie sees it. My frustration and my expectation is that once he's gone, we will never have another authentic leader that can take back our democracy from the already dominant plutocracy/oligarchy. It has gone global. It will be much harder this time. Small businesses don't yet realize that they should be democrats if small business is to fight the Amazon's and other corporations who would not even be allowed under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act which Reagan quit enforcing. The fabric of laws that kept us a democracy have been rent asunder.

[St Aug girl]

56. I was a college student in the late 1970s

and often thought about the college students protesting the war. They seemed to join together to make the world a better place while we were worried about having a career to make a lot of money. It seemed to switch from the common good to it is all about me.

[oldandhappy]

52. do a search for United Progressive Party

which is getting started. I joined today. Their goal is to be on every ballot in 2018. We are going forward!

[Beausoir]

60. Sometimes, it's just good to take a break from the grind of political message boards. n/t

[pansypoo53219]

65. demoCRAT vs DNC

i am w/ FDR.

[Scootaloo]

69. Reminds me of the reaction to Occupy around here. All the same people too.

Even the same arguments! I remember how we "deserved" to get our faces kicked in by cops because a lot of us were white and almost all of us were young. I remember coming home from Seattle, my face all swelled up from the pepper spray, to read my "fellow liberals" having a good laugh about it.

It's interesting how the richest people on this board are so fast on the draw to say that movement for economic equity is some sort of racism. It's like they gave up even trying to smokescreen it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. Yup

And I remember covering it here in San Diego and getting that feel that the same folks felt threatened

[RufusTFirefly]

79. Great observation

Many people unconsciously accept the predominant narrative.

On a certain level, that's not a bad thing. We are a very social species.

Unfortunately, certain forces have corrupted our viewpoint in such a way that it's no longer an accurate reflection of popular opinion and is instead the product of steady coercion by the rich and powerful.

[frustrated_lefty]

72. I think progressive change is in the air.

It's just a question of how bloody it will be. Individual "movements" have been appearing with increasing frequency. Individual whistle-blowers have similarly been stepping up. It's just a matter of time before these movements and individuals coalesce into a force to be reckoned with, after finding common ground. Everyone knows that the system is rigged so that the "haves" have more and the "have-nots" have less. Look at the sheer number of individual donations Sanders has and continues to receive.

There is a large percentage of the population that believes the government no longer works for them, the people. The democratic party used to be the party of the people. It's blatantly a party for the establishment in these times. When the people no longer have a voice, things get ugly. A Sanders presidency might have halted that. Regardless, change will come.

[cliffordu]

73. +1 me too.

Sad, really.

[Uncle Joe]

74. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, cali.

[silvershadow]

75. 2016 will go down in history, that's for sure. One way, or the other. But there is no doubt

the history books will mark a special place that's for sure. Either Bernie wins and unites the party in a decidedly different direction to re-embrace its' FDR/Labor accomplishments, or Hillary wins and splinters the party before sundown.

[ChiciB1]

85. BUT, Bernie Has FOREVER Changed The Direction Of This Country AND

has made millions come alive and AWAKE!

Hillary CAN'T stop what's going to happen. Bernie built on the angst that's be brewing for a REALLY LONG TIME. He just picked up the baton and ran as hard as he could! He may come in 2nd... but HE IS NUMBER ONE in so many ways!

Yes, he HAS opened the eyes of those who have had them closed for too long. Almost NO Democrat came out to support OCCUPY, they ignored it AND "we the people!" Bernie HAS NOT!

[RufusTFirefly]

77. I agree. I'm afraid that this is how corruption happens

Although there will always be a minority that is deliberately corrupt, I think that most of us fail to notice alterations in our values and behavior because it happens so slowly and incrementally.

Few people, it seems, step outside the system long enough to gain perspective on how they or their country has changed.

[democrank]

78. The party`s Third Way has always been dismissive toward the progressive left.

What`s different this time around is the number of long-time Democrats who have reached the end of their patience with Corporate Headquarters and their enablers. Most of the Democrats I know are long-time party activists who worked for and contributed to Democratic candidates.These were loyal Democrats who could not imagine ever leaving the party. Most of them worked in the Civil Rights movement, the Women`s Movement, and protested against the Vietnam and Iraq Wars. All of them feel their party no longer represents them and most consider themselves to be Independents now.

When the (D) becomes more important than long-held principles, it`s time to go.

[Kermitt Gribble]

84. I feel exactly the same, cali. Thanks for this post. n/t

[Betty Karlson]

88. You haven't lost faith. You have been left behind by the institution that proclaimed to share

your beliefs. Turns out they only wanted your membership, your money, your volunteer work, and your conformism.

As a gay man, I have been through this once before. Just waiting for the next pummeling by Daddy (or Mommy, in this case) is not a good strategy. Standing up for ourselves, and either take control or leave entirely, those are our options now.

I will not be in a party controlled by those who praise Nancy Reagan while courting Bush donors and espousing more "interventions" in the Middle East.

[Xyzse]

90. I identified with Democrats more as the platform tends to favor the issues I care about.

The problem I've had is that I don't really see the balance any more as the scales have tipped.

I have always been a proud unaffiliated person, and decided to join the establishment for a few months. I am back to how I am, starting today.

[cantbeserious]

91. This Citizen Was Once A Democrat - Until The Party Was Hijacked By Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks

Since the party has left the Citizen - The Citizen feels no allegiance to the party.

HRC, WJC, DWS, DNC, DLC, Third-Way Establishment Be Damned.