2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumFortune: Hillary Clinton Is Not a Liar
Ben Geier
Fortune
More than 7 million people have watched a YouTube video entitled, Hillary Clinton lying for 13 minutes straight.
Theres just one problem with the video: much of what it shows isnt actually Hillary Clinton lying; its just typical political pandering. You can dislike the fact that politicians base their positions on what is popular at the time, but it is a simple fact of life in a a diverse, heterogenous democratic society.
The video includes a series of clips from Clintons time as a senator and while she Secretary of State where she opposes same-sex marriage, reiterating several times that marriage is something between a man and a woman. Then theres a clip from 2013 where she supports same-sex marriage. The video also shows a an interview with radio host Terry Gross where Clinton denies having changed her opinion for political gain.
Okay, so the very last bit may be a lie. The rest of it, though, is classic politics. In the 1990s and early 2000s, being publicly supportive of gay marriage wasnt politically advantageous, so Clinton was against it. By 2013, public opinion had swung and so she came out in favor. Is this a good way to base your policies? Maybe not. But it isnt lying.
The video contains a few segments that cant be explained away by pandering, namely the sequence about the State Department e-mail scandal and the question of Clintons statements about landing in wartorn Bosnia from the 2008 cycle. Without the ability to read Clintons mind, it is difficult to make a firm judgment on these situations.
Is this a piece defending Mrs. Clinton or attacking her? If this is the best defense, maybe it's best to say nothing at all.
Related:
Fact-checking Hillary Clinton lying for 13 minutes straight
And here's the original video that has been around since January but seems to be making news recently:
BootinUp
(47,138 posts)kaleckim
(651 posts)as a Clinton supporter? Did we read the same article?
BootinUp
(47,138 posts)is to acknowledge that and then explain why its important for the D party to unite against the real evil. Just my opinion.
I guess it's a Rorschach test. See what you want.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)BootinUp
(47,138 posts)TCJ70
(4,387 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)And was the sniper fire pandering too?
pinebox
(5,761 posts)And that isn't a lie.
How ironic you post something from a source which the entire Bernie movement is fighting against.
That shows illustrates the absolute disconnect.
portlander23
(2,078 posts)That the best defense that can be mustered is "some of it is a lie, sure, but the rest is just pandering," as though pandering is acceptable discourse and some amount of lying is to be expected.
kaleckim
(651 posts)that they now openly write pieces to people being lied to, basically saying, "Of course they're going to lie to you idiots to get your vote, then they'll sell out once in office. This isn't lying, it's how the system works, you dumb hippies." Sadly, it wins over lots of Democrats. With right wing Democrats like some of the posters in this thread, there's no need for the damn Republican Party.
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)tabasco
(22,974 posts)Imagine that.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Merryland
(1,134 posts)Proud Public Servant
(2,097 posts)Of COURSE she's a liar. She is, at this point, completely a creature of Washington; none of her three home states is anywhere near as much a home to her as this misbegotten sewer. And in this town lying isn't a sin, it's a tactic. You can't be the absolute avatar of the DC establishment -- which she is -- without being a liar. It's just not done.
That said, I honestly don't blame her. She didn't make up the rules of the sick game that is our government. She just chose to play, and chose to play to win. I've seen honest politicians in my lifetime, and I've seen successful politicians; I'm not sure I've seen those categories overlap.
BootinUp
(47,138 posts)I would also make the point that politicians who go to great pains to look pure, do so not for the common good of the country but just to appease the more extreme partisans. That is a safe play and not a courageous stand for politicians representing solidly blue or red districts.
Its much more complicated than you seem to realize.
Proud Public Servant
(2,097 posts)I live here, I work here. That was the whole point of my post; I know full well that a DC career presents a wretched choice between being honest and being effective (also between being honest and being successful). Hillary's been successful and reasonably effective; so of course she's a liar.
BootinUp
(47,138 posts)If what you want is to stop politicians from evolving with the progress of the human race, then you are not a good fit for the liberal party.
Proud Public Servant
(2,097 posts)Of course I'm cynical; I've worked in both the executive and legislative branches, and I've seen the sausage being made. It's horrifying.
And of course I want politicians to evolve, and Hillary has (as long as "evolve" is broad enough to mean "see which way the wind is blowing and get on board out of self-interest" . I'll have no trouble voting for Hillary in the general. But that doesn't make me think she's anything other than the least objectionable choice. And it certainly doesn't lead me to expect that she won't be lying to me again soon.
BootinUp
(47,138 posts)Proud Public Servant
(2,097 posts)BootinUp
(47,138 posts)it really is the best the anti-Hillarians have. First, who fuckin cares? Second, I agree with what the article says on that and have made that case here before myself. Thirdly, and this is why no one cares: If, for arguments sake it was a lie and not her confusion over events, its not the kind of lie that demonstrates a willingness to harm the public interest for some personal gain.
Baobab
(4,667 posts)proof:
http://www.maine.gov/legis/opla/ctpchlthcaresub.pdf
A cover up of this has been ongoing since then.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Some mistakes are too damn expensive to pass off with a "whoops, better luck next time".
BootinUp
(47,138 posts)instead of a meme or a campaign slogan, then I might be open to a discussion of the pros and cons of that vote.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Being just a naive young woman from flyover country how could she possibly stand up to the sheer intellectual might of a President with degrees from both Harvard *and* Yale?
BootinUp
(47,138 posts)as in, I want to fundamentally change the trade policies corrupt politicians like Clinton supports because of the actual impact those policies have had on working people and the poor. I want to radically change the economy, because if we don't, we will see worldwide ecological collapse, and soon (which is the case). I want to fundamentally change our health care system because universal systems elsewhere are more human, efficient and equitable, and ours (even with the ACA), is still too efficient, costly and immoral. "Purity" is looking at the fact that Clinton's generation inherited an infrastructure in much better shape than the one they're handing over (they decided to not pay taxes to fund the proper upkeep), and as a result those selfish people are now passing off trillions onto their kids and grandchildren (the infrastructure gap). "Purity" dictates that politicians do something about the fact that real wages haven't grown for most in decades (thanks in large part to the very policies the Clintons have supported), inequality has exploded, de-industrialization has spread, infrastructure is crumbling from neglect, etc. You'll notice too that the "compromises" (in actuality, there is a huge gap between popular opinion on the issues and government policy) of the last few decades benefited the rich and corporations, while those during the New Deal and Great Society eras far more benefited the poor and working people. Are we to assume there are no differences, are we to ignore that obvious reality?
You're just justifying not fundamentally changing a corrupt and inequitable system that is leading us to ecological collapse. Basically, your corrupt candidate starts from an already compromised position (which is to the right of most in her party and the general public). You call that "centrist" but never explain what it's in the center of exactly. Any rate, she as a "centrist" negotiates with the far right Republicans, and we all know that a compromise results in a middle position between the two. So, if that's the case, where will that position be? Well to the right of this party and the general public, it will result in nothing more than the continuation of this horrible system. I fail to see, given how much of a disaster the establishments' policies have been, how that is pragmatic.
BootinUp
(47,138 posts)to understand the politics. There has been no good case made to call her corrupt, and it is belied by the fact that she puts herself through all the hate to achieve good things for our country.
I DO criticize politicians that don't contribute to moving policy while they are serving in office. I don't care if its a Dem or a Puke. During a primary campaign I do not criticize the vision, if its a vision I agree with. I do on occasion criticize the feasability of that vision carrying the general election. I also criticize the details of the vision if it is not based on the facts of the budget.
My take on your corruption argument is that it ignores the power of the RW propaganda to win votes. When the public is brainwashed do we just let them take all 3 branches of government? You have to as a political party attempt to put forth policies that can win elections, AND fight the RW lies to the best of our ability. But changing what people believe even if it is based on lies is god damned hard.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)You are really going to have to connect the dots a bit better for me on that.
BootinUp
(47,138 posts)kaleckim
(651 posts)that you overlook the entirety of her career and essentially change the definition of corruption to back a corrupt candidate. I don't know if you realize this or not, but you cannot change objective reality when you make a bad decision.
She and Bill Clinton have taken over three billion dollars since they entered politics 40 some odd years ago. They rose to power in Arkansas with Walmart/Walton money, their DLC got instrumental support from massive amounts of corporate and right wing groups (including the Kochs), and they have been given about 150 million dollars by corporations in the last decade or so directly. They pushed for NAFTA, the WTO, the Telecommunications Act, gutted New Deal financial regulations, deregulated derivatives, and Bill Clinton's team was working hard on plan to privatize Social Security, then the Lewinsky affair broke.
She has supported and voted for every single bilateral "free trade" deal, strongly supported the TPP for years, and the three free trade deals under Obama. Those deals have utterly destroyed working people and the poor. She voted to bail out financial capital in 2008. She did a u turn on the bankruptcy bill which Warren pointed out clear as day in the Moyers video was entirely the result of Wall Street cash. She opposes breaking up the banks (don't bother arguing otherwise), opposes a financial transactions tax, opposes reinstating Glass-Steagall, all of which benefits financial capital.
I could go on an on like this. Both she and her corrupt husband have been given massive amounts of money from Wall Street and corporate interests and have supported policies that benefit those groups. Period. How that isn't corruption is beyond me. Since you're so intellectually solid, maybe your brilliant mind can explain it. I guess you know something those corporations don't. They aren't charities and seem keen on just throwing their money away on the Clintons. LOL!
Pathetic.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)Kentonio
(4,377 posts)When someone telling constant bare faced lies can just be covered by 'It's just typical political pandering, it's not lying'. If people didn't except this kind of dishonest behavior, then they wouldn't be able to keep getting away with it, let alone having it become the norm.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)SamKnause
(13,091 posts)Lies are truth.
What a cruel joke.
Ben Geier you are really something.
Ino
(3,366 posts)(Everyone except those with actual principles of course, like Sanders.)
Oh, then there are those pesky instances that don't fall under "typical political pandering." But we can't call that lying unless we can read her mind! It's not lying if her brain isn't working right!
This was the lamest bit of apologist crap ever, LOL.
catnhatnh
(8,976 posts)And look who's name popped up:
Pandering is the act of expressing one's views in accordance with the likes of a group to which one is attempting to appeal. The term is most notably associated with politics. In pandering, the views one is expressing are merely for the purpose of drawing support up to and including votes and do not necessarily reflect one's personal values.
Pandering is essentially a reaction of panic in elected officials who must either tailor their views to public opinion or risk losing their existing or potential seat.[1]
See also[edit]
Demagoguery / Demagogy
Hillary Clinton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandering_(politics)
deaniac21
(6,747 posts)Response to deaniac21 (Reply #27)
Name removed Message auto-removed
hopeforchange2008
(610 posts)Bosnia sniper fire
djean111
(14,255 posts)Seems pretty straightforward to me.
The sniper story was just bizarre.
Pandering for votes is, IMO, nothing to vote for.
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)pan·der.
VERB
1.gratify or indulge (an immoral or distasteful desire, need, or habit or a person with such a desire, etc.):
noun, Also, panderer
1. a person who furnishes clients for a prostitute or supplies persons for illicit sexual intercourse; procurer; pimp.
2. a person who caters to or profits from the weaknesses or vices of others.
3. a go-between in amorous intrigues.
verb (used without object)
4. to act as a pander; cater basely:
to pander to the vile tastes of vulgar persons.
verb (used with object)
5. to act as a pander for.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/pandering
kaleckim
(651 posts)the defense against that damning video is that politicians knowingly say things they don't believe in to win votes, then do the opposite once in office? THAT'S the freaking argument?! I have to say, there is a huge gap between popular opinion on the issues and government policy. This pathetic piece justifies the continuance of this. Essentially, by the way, we should expect everything that she says to be nothing more than her wanting your damn vote. Sure fire way of increasing trust in her, LOL!
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)That politicians were so publicly careful about it wasn't surprising. Even Sanders, who was for it, defended the states route.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)He must think two lies make a truth.
mooseprime
(474 posts)demwing
(16,916 posts)Merriam Webster online defines pander:
noun pan·der
Definition of pander
1
a : a go-between in love intrigues
b : pimp
2
: someone who caters to or exploits the weaknesses of others
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pander
See? Hillary isn't a liar, she's just an exploitative pimp!
Don't we all feel much better now?
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Of course she's a liar. Most politicians are, but she's unusually gifted in the art. Her cult members can make excuses for anything, this is just another example.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)The fucking 1%er rag lies for the 1%er candidate.
Golly gee, that sure as fuck will change my mind.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)and know perfectly well when they have been lied to. Of course neo cons cannot resist reprogramming the public, or correcting the record when the truth hurts too much.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Ummm, no.
Todays_Illusion
(1,209 posts)aikoaiko
(34,165 posts)thats the best defense she has.
libodem
(19,288 posts)That makes it okay.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)prove the opposite of the headline, which almost makes it clickbait.
Also, pandering is pretty much lying.
Dr. Strange
(25,919 posts)It just depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.