The question is now: Which is WORSE for America - Hillary or Trump?

[insta8er]

Last edited Sun May 22, 2016, 07:19 PM - Edit history (1)

A quick analysis of some of the problems --

1) They are both shameless liars. Thanks to the miracle of YouTube, five seconds of Internet research will provide endless examples of Hillary and Trump smugly proclaiming "as I've always said" along with the video of them proclaiming the exact opposite stances. Hillary is famous for her lawyer like word parsing (the FBI has apparently NEVER contacted her for an interview, but according to her spokesman that is because they are setting it up through her lawyer who is in daily contact with them), while Trump babbles on in a non-comprehensible fashion with "Twitter wars" his favorite pastime. Result: two narcissistic personalities who will say anything the listener wants to hear, and no clue as to what either will really do.

2) They both have legal problems. Hillary is directly responsible for 38 civil lawsuits against the State Department and is currently the subject of a year long FBI investigation. Trump is being sued for fraud with his "Trump University" project, a history of using bankruptcy to reorganize debt, and has been a part of over fifty suits both as Plaintiff and Defendant. Neither of these individuals are dealing with "nuisance" suits; they all appear to be self inflicted stupidity.

3) Questionable "charitable" issues. The Clinton Foundation took millions of dollars from foreign interests while Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State despite having signed an agreement not to do so, with both she and her famous spouse collecting millions in questionable "speaker fees" from organizations with regulation issues. Meanwhile, Trump has his own accounting problems, with "raising money for veterans" just one example of problems with his "invisible money" accounting systems.

4) Purported plans for America. I wish Trump could win this one hands down in the "is he a lunatic?" category. From his plans to extort money from NATO allies to threatening immigrants to Roe v Wade concerns, the words misogynistic xenophobic racist seem appropriate. Unfortunately, Hillary's history of supporting fracking, bad trade policy and tragic foreign policy debacles terrify anyone who looks at past performance as an indicator of future performance, while her cruelty toward children (advocating for rejecting bus loads of South American refugee children, votes on cluster bomb usage and countless dead from her "regime change" adventures) only began with the "Welfare Reform" she supported during her husband's presidency.

5) Family problems. Trump is on his third marriage, and his current wife's naked modeling photos are easily found on the Internet. Hillary is still married to the world's most famous adulterer who is in the history books as being impeached for lying under oath. Since "slut shaming" is considered rude, not many people are talking about either spouse.

6) Popularity problems. In a polarized electorate, both Hillary and Trump fight for "most disliked" with on average two voters actively despising them for every voter who likes or finds them tolerable. Support is voiced as "voting against the other candidate" as opposed to "voting for" a preferred candidate. Clinton fundraising and Clinton Foundation money have assured Hillary of establishment support, but over half of the rank and file Democrats are loudly supporting anybody but her. Meanwhile, establishment Republicans appear to be horrified by their candidate, with some party leaders promising to support the Democratic candidate instead because they find his public persona repugnant.

7) Transparency issues. Trump is publicly a bad candidate, but since he is not beholden to anyone, he says what he thinks. He has criticized the Iraq War and the people who allowed it to occur without consequences. He is a blowhard and an asshole who has lowered the tone of public discourse, and gleefully shattered any pretense that the Republican Party doesn't suck. Unfortunately, Hillary has demonstrated complete contempt for the rule of law, and in paranoid fashion, hid government records (her emails) from the public for over six years/failed to comply with FOIA law. She made agreements with President Obama on how State Department business would be conducted, then broke those agreements while using the family "foundation" to enable back door access to NSA and CIA classified intelligence without reporting the security breeches. She appears to have no understanding of the seriousness consequences to the public perception of government transparency, and has actually rolled her eyes at "email questions". A further concern is that any press identification of inappropriate or criminal behavior by her or her team is automatically derided by her supporters as "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Bullshit" (tm) which actually disables the safeguards of a free press to investigate corruption.

At the end, with the choice between Trump's INEXPERIENCE AND OVERT INCOMPETENCE when it comes to good government versus Hillary's COVERT BAD DECISION MAKING AND LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY CONCERNS, it becomes impossible to decide which will actually be worse for America. Both can lie with varying levels of sincerity, and neither is trustworthy. One will sell out American interests publicly, while the other will do it behind closed doors.

I support Bernie Sanders, but if the choice is between Hillary and Trump, my answer is "NONE OF THE ABOVE".

Edit: Received approval from original poster to use this.

[StayFrosty]

1. Bernie

And his massive tax hikes on the middle class

[Fawke Em]

5. Tax hikes that would save us thousands a year.

My taxes might go up, but I'd no longer be forced to pay a private company thousands for some limited access to healthcare. I'd pay $441 more a year and could go to the doctor when I needed to.

[JaneyVee]

9. There arent enough doctors, nurses, or hospitals for....

You to go whenever you wanted.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

150. This is a shit thread but your post ain't much better.

How did you turn visiting a doctor "when I needed to" to "whenever you wanted" ?

People need to go to the doctor more, not less. It beats the hell out of the emergency room bills we all pay for. Somehow, we have enough doctors to treat people in the most expensive and inefficient way possible in the ER. Who the hell goes to the doctor anyway when not needed?

My brother is dead. And I'm certain it's because of health insurance he couldn't afford to use.

Two people I know are permanently disabled from simple infections that went untreated. One is on the lung transplant list from a tooth abscess.

Another is on permanent disability you and I pay for on top of probably a half million dollars in surgeries you and I paid for - for a broken toe that turned in to a bone infection that turned in to a spine abscess. Now my friend has to piss in a bag and walk with a walker. For life.

[JRLeft]

226. Her supporters are right wingers.

[Silver_Witch]

228. So of course then the poor should have not healthcare!

What a horrible position

[JDPriestly]

261. Our hospitals and medical care centers will be better organized if we have single payer.

They manage to do this in Europe. I lived there. (I repeat that over and over on DU.) The healthcare was great.

It's a matter of organization. Single payer means doctors have far less paperwork for different insurance companies to deal with. It's significantly simpler to administer.

We are already starting to use nurse practitioners for certain things we used to have a doctor do. That practice will become more common.

We can safely save a lot of money in our healthcare and rely on doctors to do the work that they either can do best or that they alone can do.

Everyone wins.

Most developed countries have single payer. It can be organized in different ways. It takes the for-profit out of healthcare and organizes health-care delivery better.

Our system of different for-profit insurance companies, each with a list of doctors, difficulty transferring from one company, one list to another is terrible.

I left a job -- had to leave my doctor too because the insurance list of doctors in the company my new employer used did not include the doctor I had seen when I worked for my previous employer. That is ridiculous. It's not good healthcare.

[Ash_F]

10. Stay crunchy my friend

Stay crunchy.

[elleng]

12. Save us all,

if that's how a majority of people make this decision.

[senz]

30. Bernie's going to tax certain stock transactions and the very rich.

We don't need your rightwing meme.

[Dustlawyer]

206. I would add the the would re-prioritize where our tax dollars are spent and audit the Pentagon.

The savings from waste, fraud and abuse could fund our public schools and more!

[tazkcmo]

106. Massive?

Did you wipe after pulling that out?

[Baobab]

163. LOL

[Arugula Latte]

175. You prefer Trump over Bernie? That should be your last post.

If there were any justice here, you'd be PPRed.

[StayFrosty]

178. And you should stop putting words in other people's mouths

[larkrake]

184. thats not what was said, you are a flamethrower

[Arugula Latte]

196. The question is which is worse? StayFrosty said Bernie is worst of all.

So, that means he thinks Trump is better than Bernie.

[Peacetrain]

2. Is this not the Idabriggs post??

[WhiteTara]

4. Shameless plagerism

but principles are being held.

[Arkansas Granny]

24. Yes. The first post was hidden, but this one survived on a

3-4 vote to leave it.

Unbelievable!

[Peacetrain]

39. We have definitely gone round that proverbial bend

[larkrake]

248. maybe because it is a dose of reality

[SheilaT]

3. None of the Above will be getting my vote in November.

[yourout]

79. +1...me to.

[840high]

136. me 3

[chervilant]

278. Me, four.

And, there are MANY more like us.

[JaneyVee]

6. Operation Chaos 2016

This post was hidden when posted by another poster. This is a memo that has gone out copied and pasted word for word. Rightwing infiltration of DU

[Octafish]

131. Bogus Premise.

Hillary has yet to secure nomination. Were she to become the Democratic nominee, she is INFINITELY more qualified to serve as President than Donald the Short-Fingered Vulgarian.

[Yurovsky]

219. The only right wing infiltration is the 3rd way into MY party...

Bernie is the Right Wing's worst nightmare. Sadly the Right (in the form of Wall Street & corporate interests) has bought and paid for one party for years (the GOP) and is hoping to close on the deal to buy out the Democratic Party via Hillary this year.

I just cannot fathom how all of that dirty money is no big deal to half of the voters in the Democratic primaries. It tells me that the people are down to their last best o-tip - Bernie - to fight back this corporatist oppression.

[larkrake]

249. Not right wing, more a disgusted dem

[Native]

7. Alert. Dupe Post. Previous post was hidden.

[mcar]

86. And this one was a 4-3 leave

[alcibiades_mystery]

114. Jury shopping pure and simple: Admins need to remove this abusive poster

[Demsrule86]

217. This post is not appropriate

and advocates voting against the Democratic nominee...it is also filled with unproven and untrue smears against Hillary Clinton our nominee. I can not believe this is allowed to remain. Well if a post like this remains due to jury-rigging, the only thing ond can do is put the poster on ignore.

[B Calm]

244. and your favorite group is ask the administrators. Seriously?

[LyndaG]

8. Trump

He said he would appoint justices that would strike down Roe Vs. Wade. And, he would dismantle all the progress made by President Obama. Default on our debt? Trump would crash the economy worse than GWB.

[scscholar]

36. And then four years later, we get someone good in the office!

You're talking about playing chess instead of a Bernie checkers.

[thucythucy]

180. That's what I was told about Reagan in 1980.

"He'll be so bad, so incompetent, we'll get a REAL progressive in 1984."

Was a BS argument then, is a BS argument about Trump today.

You're not playing chess, you're playing Russian roulette.

[jwirr]

45. You forgot one. He would have our nation openly at war with

each other with his hate messages.

[restorefreedom]

11. this is what happens

when the eatablishment riggs a process to prop up a weak candidate who can't win. now, they did not do that on the gop side, even though they tried to defeat trump and stick in bush. but he managed to get through. the dems have the supers and all the collusion and cheating to force hillary on us.

and now the country gets to choose between hillary and trump. with the way the numbers are going and trump's anti trade and noninterventionist positions, we are looking at at least four years of trump.

of course, if hillary gets indicted and bernie gets the nom, well that changes everything.

[insta8er]

15. AMEN!

[JaneyVee]

16. Trump is beating Bernie by millions of votes. Not Hillary.

Who's weak?

[restorefreedom]

19. apples and oranges. and since caucuses don't register votes

how convenient, the hillary "millions of votes" meme is false anyway

trump will crush clinton
bernie will crush trump

its that simple

[JaneyVee]

22. Trump is beating Bernie by millions of votes. Not Hillary.

Its this simple

[senz]

31. All the polls say Trump beats Hill and Bernie beats Trump.

[JaneyVee]

55. Hate to burst your bubble, bro....

http://www.270towin.com/maps/crystal-ball-2016-electoral-college-ratings

But someone needs to.

[senz]

63. Calling me "bro?"

I'm old enough to be your mother.

Now, abusive commenter, you are going on ignore -- where you belong.

[JaneyVee]

67. Facts are abusive now.

[-none]

81. They have to be facts first.

[TomJulie]

105. ALL the Polls???

That's 100% BS. Hillary is NOT trailing Trump in ALL poles. Bernie can't win and needs to bow out gracefully and unify the party.

If Bernie cares about the party he would quit the race and try to become Hillary's VP. That would guarantee us a win and may give us a good shot at taking control of Congress.

[restorefreedom]

130. thanks, but a pro hillary prop opinion piece doesn't cut it

when the polls start showing it, then i might be worried.

sanders crushes trump
trump crushes clinton

there really is only one choice left

bernie2016

[larkrake]

246. HA! take foot from mouth

[SidDithers]

13. ...

Sid

[question everything]

33. Well said. Thank you (nt)

[mcar]

87. That says it all!

[Mz Pip]

108. This ^^^^^!!!

Geez, Louise this is getting ridiculous. To see any post claiming that Right Wing authoritarian demagogue would be preferable to Clinton is just nuts.

Are people so blinded by Clinton hate that they haven't taken the time to actually listen to what Trump is saying, who he has as advisors, who is supporting him?

We've got sone real examples of Clinton Derangement Syndrome going on here. Not something I would have expected on a liberal message board.

[treestar]

120. And not a progressive

and don't belong on DU.

[BootinUp]

146. +1 Don't be Morans!!!!!!!

[Martin Eden]

229. --- or a remotely equivalent outcome.

Trump in the White House would seriously make me want to renounce my citizenship and move to Canada, though that's probably not an option at my age (59).

[JaneyVee]

14. Yet Bernie and Trump agree on more!

[insta8er]

17. Yet Hillary and Trump have the same paymasters.

[JaneyVee]

20. WTF is a paymaster?

Bernie lost. Get over it.

[Shemp Howard]

42. A paymaster is someone who offers you a bribe.

Let's suppose you are a politician, and I offer you $250,000 to give a short speech. I don't care what you talk about. I don't even care if you have any special insights. All I care about is that you remember. I paid you $250,000 for about an hour of your time. And there is more money where that came from.

I am the paymaster. You are in my debt. You are Hillary.

[JaneyVee]

66. No. You perform a service and you get paid for it and it is done.

The Clintons are multi hundred millionaires. They dont need the money.

[Shemp Howard]

85. They are multimillionaires because they took those bribes!

Bill and Hillary are not multimillionaires because they invented a better mousetrap, or because they invested in Microsoft when it was $1 a share.

They are multimillionaires because they took money from people who offered it. Saudi Arabia, Goldman Sachs, etc. For goodness sake, Saudi Arabia and Goldman Sachs, they are not philanthropists! They invest their money, and they expect a decent return on that money.

[JaneyVee]

92. Uh, you realize they also write books and collect govt pensions???

[Shemp Howard]

94. Book royalties and pensions DON'T add up to multi-millions.

But "speaking fees" and "foundation donations", yes they can add up to multi-millions.

Speaking fees = Foundation donations = bribes

[arikara]

128. You're right, they don't need it

but they sure do love it, and they sure do keep grubbing for it.

[Juicy_Bellows]

69. Probably best to save your breath.

I admire your willingness to engage though.

[larkrake]

250. well. Trump is internationally contacted, Hillary is just US known, she was ignored as SOS

by world leaders other than scripting arms sales

[senz]

34. Hill and Trump are 1 percenters and GREAT friends.

[Arkansas Granny]

18. I cannot believe that shit like this is allowed to stand.

[SFnomad]

25. It's time for Skinner to call it .. the BS cheerleaders are becoming unhinged n/t

[insta8er]

46. Call him!

[immoderate]

127. Right! We can't have democracy at Democratic Underground!

Give the people what they don't want!

--imm

[Shemp Howard]

44. Then alert, and trust in a DU jury. (nt)

[insta8er]

49. Looking at some of the posters in this thread, it has already been done.

[Arkansas Granny]

51. It was alerted on. I was on the jury. The vote was 3-4 to leave it.

Hopefully, the admins will look at this.

[IdaBriggs]

159. This post was originally inspired by Skinner asking "which is worse?"

(Mild paraphrase.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2020324

I gave it some thought, and answered.

[insta8er]

280. Ida, I get the idea that people don't read the article just the headline?

[SFnomad]

56. A duplicate OP to this one was alerted .. and shut down.

But BS cheerleaders don't care about the rules ... so they create another duplicate OP (this one) just minutes later. This time, they must have found a more sympathetic jury (aka stacked with BS cheerleaders) and this one stayed. So now it's up to the admins to take care of it.

It's clear how broken the alert system is around here.

[Beacool]

204. Can you believe the crap one reads on this board??????

At this point it's better to laugh. The delusional and ridiculous nonsense coming from certain supporters is so overboard that it ends up being funny.

[question everything]

21. That such a question is being posted on a Democratic site is shameful

Don't think about the individuals, think about the Supreme Court.

Does any one here doubt which one would be better?

Yes, many here do not like Bill Clinton and, apparently, Barack Obama. But the four liberal - or, to pacify many here - the center and left - were appointed by these two Democratic presidents. That ACA is the law of the land, that all marriages are now legal, that many attempts to block abortion and access to voting are still in place - thank these two presidents.

And Hillary will do the same. If any one notices, all the "Trump Eleven" are strongly against choice.

[insta8er]

26. Meanwhile we should forget about everything else the coronated one is guilty of?

[JaneyVee]

27. Go vote for Trump then.

Bernie lost.

[insta8er]

35. I won't, I just won't vote for the corporate one. Make sure not to come and complain here

when your social security check is going to be issued by wallstreet and your pharmacy cost will spiral out of control. Both of these industries have a debt to even with your "madam president".

[JaneyVee]

53. LOL. Youre gonna lecture about complaining?

WALL STREET! PHARMACY! DRINK!

WHO CARES!

[insta8er]

54. LOL you are going to become good at it with your "madam president"

[JaneyVee]

60. I'll take a Madam President over a Madman President anyday.

[insta8er]

65. That one is actually quite funny! LOL you outdid yourself today..

[question everything]

29. I am not aware of any coronation

certainly not as it was Obama in 2008 after he won the Iowa caucus.

Guilty of what? No, not of twitters and facebook chatter; of breaking the law for which she should be indicted.

[senz]

37. Yes, we're not supposed to look too closely at the candidates.

[question everything]

52. We do. This is why we have primaries and caucuses

But once we have a nominee, if we really care about the future of our country we should vote for the nominee.

I don't know how young you are, but I rarely voted for a nominee, at all government levels, who was my original choice.

Some years back there was a wise post here, on these pages: "If I wanted to have a candidate with all the preferred traits, I would run myself."

[icecreamfan]

177. I can't get excited about republican-lite Garland

and fighting culture wars while the likely Democratic candidate loves launching actual wars and fracking.

[larkrake]

251. I think he is just a carrot

he is right of center, and Obama knew he would be stalled

[Retrograde]

23. Trump, no question

Clinton at least has had the experience of being elected senator twice - and had a reputation of getting out and talking to her constituents, even in the unglammorous parts of the state. For all her faults, she's not an ignorant, bloviating, misogynistic, racist, tasteless, self-promoting windbag who talks of nothing but how great (or how grating) she is.

Of course, I think a random person walking down the street would be better than Trump.

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. Dumbfuck question. Dumbfuck conclusion.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. 1 Tbsp of Arsenic vs 1 Tsp of Arsenic. I'll pass on both.

[One of the 99]

38. So will you take responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

Or will you childishly try to blame everyone else Mikey?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. I always do. Who's Mikey?

[One of the 99]

41. So you will take responsibility for the damage Trump does to this country?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. No. I'm not voting for him. Who's "Mikey"?

[One of the 99]

48. Then you are not taking responsiblity

for doing nothing that could stop him. Same as Nader supporters in 2000 Mikey.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. I'll take responsibility for voting against him. Who's Mikey?

Is it supposed to be an insult? Or do you think that I'm Michael Douglas? Mike Wallace? Michael Caine? If so, I'm flattered?

Can I call you Al?

[One of the 99]

61. Only if you vote for the one person that actually has a chance to beat Trump

Otherwise you are throwing your vote away and helping Trump.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. There are no facts, only interpretations. Friedrich Nietzsche

Thanks for contributing. Who's Mikey?

[Juicy_Bellows]

72. I can only assume Life cereal Mikey.

Why that has any bearing on the discussion, I have no idea.

[One of the 99]

82. There is one fact.

If you don't do what it takes to stop Trump, you are responsible for all the damage he does.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

97. Sorry. That's your interpretation.

But, rest easy, I absolutely, for sure, guarantee, that my vote will not effect the outcome of the election.

Neither will yours.

Of course that's just my interpretation of history and math.

Who's Mikey?

[One of the 99]

100. No that is a fact and you know it.

And everyone's vote counts.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

103. Still your interpretation. My interpretation differs from yours.

Maybe you should look for Mikey in your closet and ask him who he really is and why he thinks I would blame him for anything.

[One of the 99]

107. Not interpetation but an excuse

for not doing what it takes to stop Trump.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

140. Another interpretation.

[One of the 99]

223. No, another excuse Mikey.

[senz]

59. I'll take responsibility for damage inflicted by Bill Clinton.

I voted for him twice.

I was too naive to realize I had voted for WTO/GATT, NAFTA, the 1996 Telecom Act and the repeal of Glass-Steagall.

Which cemented Reagan's policies and finished off the middle class.

This election, I'm going to look much more closely before I vote for anyone. And I've looked very closely at the only good candidate, Bernie Sanders.

[One of the 99]

70. So did I and voted for Obama twice too.

But I voted for Bernie in the NY primary. But if he is not the nominee, we need to support whomever is to stop Trump. We also need to elect more liberal and progressive members to Congress. Both the Clinton and Obama administrations would have been far more progressive if they had a Democratic congress to work with instead of a GOP one.

[senz]

73. So work to make Bernie the nominee.

The future of this country and the world depends on it.

No that is not an exaggeration.

[One of the 99]

78. I voted for him

and contributed to him. And still hold out a small hope that it will happen. But I'm also a realist and if he is not there is no choice but support the Dem nominee.

[senz]

93. This is the final push. Do everything you can. It matters.

If it comes down to the "pick your poison" level then maybe someone will spring a psychologically normal candidate (a Democrat) on us. Who knows? It's a strange, strange election season, in case you haven't noticed...

[One of the 99]

96. But it is important to remember that it doesn't stop with the President.

Even the best President needs a congress to work with.

[senz]

47. Will you take responsibility for what the other candidate does to the country?

[One of the 99]

50. Yes

because it will still be nowhere near as bad as what Trump will do to it. We learned that lesson in 2000.

[senz]

71. 2000? Dubya?

?itok=FkQD3eRJ

[One of the 99]

74. Exactly

Was Gore really the 'lesser of two evils' as we were told when compared to Bush?

[senz]

76. Gore is a noble patriot compared to Hillary Clinton.

[One of the 99]

80. That's not what we were told in 2000

[senz]

89. I voted for Gore & scolded the hell out of the Naderites.

This is not that.

[One of the 99]

91. Hopefully not.

[liberal_at_heart]

125. "Wine is fine, but whiskey's quicker. Suicide is slow with liqueur."

Ozzy's Suicide Solution.

I'm with you. I choose neither.

[raging moderate]

148. Liquor is quicker, but candy is dandier.

Twisted from Ogden Nash, who wrote, "Candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker."

Look, maybe we could all stop shouting the same things at each other and just talk this over.
Stop pretending that the other side can't possibly be right about anything, or that they can't possibly learn, change, and grow.

We are all Democrats. Even if you are a new Democrat, welcome to the Party. We are supposed to be a big tent party that welcomes fresh ideas.

I remember back when Sandra Bland was pulled out of her car and had her head slammed on the pavement and dragged for answering the question the police officer asked her in the vernacular typically used by most young people nowadays ("How do you feel?" Did he really have a right to expect an answer there?). Bernie Sanders mentioned her name and some similarly murdered Black people, and a few days later he let Black Lives Matter take over his podium. Hillary Clinton seemed clueless at first. She stated from the podium, "Well, ALL lives matter!" and had security deal with Black Lives Matter people. However, Hillary Clinton did apparently soon get a clue about the hidden meaning that had been given to "All lives matter" by white supremacists. And she has shown the ability to learn, change, and grow in the question of the minimum wage and other areas. Why don't we remember the good work she has done in the past and keep trying to convince her of the importance of our other concerns?

For those who think a fascist regime will result in the country installing a leftwing president and congress in a few years, I think the Bush/Cheney regime's success should be a warning. Not to mention other historical tragedies that were even worse.

[liberal_at_heart]

156. I was a Democrat for 20 years. I am now an Independent. I have seen

my family's way of life decline over the past 20 years due to Democrats "compromising" and "reaching across the aisle in bipartisanship." Incrementalism has actually pushed us backwards not forwards. We need "real" change. I will not be scared into voting for the lesser of two evils anymore. I am tired of our country spending trillions of dollars on war, not taxing the rich, and then claiming we don't have the money to expand SS, Medicare for All, tuition free college, and other important social services such as WIC and food stamps. Democrats must start standing up for unions, working people, the poor, and the disabled if they want my vote.

[democrattotheend]

58. I'm a Bernie supporter, but I think Hillary is 1000 times better than Trump

How anyone who claims to be a progressive could think otherwise is beyond me.

On a separate note, what do you mean by "slut shaming"? I am not aware of any allegations that Hillary has had affairs of her own.

[IdaBriggs]

162. Gender neutral term, referring to the behavior of candidates' spouses.

Slut shaming is inappropriate, thus naked modeling and previous adultery are taboo topics.

[larkrake]

252. Not affairs, more pay to play prostitution, its politics

[Feathery Scout]

64. I guess it depends on what kind of America we want in the future.

Look at Trump's short list of SCOTUS nominees. How will they shape the judicial landscape for the next 30 years?

Look at the people on Trump's VP shortlist: Cruz, Fallin, Palin, Corker, etc... They will be next-in-line in 8 years if he wins.

Look at Trump's speech to the NRA. Is that where we want guns/gun safety in this country?

Look at the response of other nations to Trump since he declared last June: Mexico, Israel, France and England have all spoken publicly against his policies or words....do we want someone who creates that much conflict and instability with our allies?

Just my own 2 cents.

[yourout]

75. Hillary scares me more than Trump relative to Social Security.

Anything Trump tries relative to SS will be fought tooth and nail by the Senate(filibuster).
I could very easily see Hillary pushing the same BS "grand bargain" and finding enough support to get it passed.

[Purveyor]

88. Hillary scares me more when it comes to foreign crusades to 'democratize', i.e. destroy more

arab/Persian countries.

[liberal_at_heart]

116. more lives lost to war and more money down the drain. Then we get told there is no

money left and must cut social services.

[pmorlan1]

95. My Fear Too

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[liberal_at_heart]

110. Yes I am sick to death of all these "grand bargains". It must stop.

[raging moderate]

205. That is because you're forgetting what a cossetted, narcissistic rich-boy liar he is.

He will say anything to get his hands on the power given to the Executive Branch of the United States government. He has already changed his tune many times according to how the wind was blowing that day. Of course he will stick with the super-rich class into which he was born and which has held him up through so many disastrous failures in life.

[creeksneakers2]

77. Do you have a link

to a credible source that says Hillary's lawyer has been contacted about an FBI interview? When will the interview be? That's sensational news and its amazing there isn't more coverage, if its true, which it probably isn't.

[IdaBriggs]

158. Yes. You can view the interview on the YouTube link below.

It starts with Hillary telling MSNBC "no" in answer to the question of whether she or her representatives have been contacted by the FBI, to which Brian Fallon (her campaign spokesman) replies:

"David Kendall is her top counsel and he has been in touch with the Justice Department throughout this review. We've always been very upfront about that."

It is still some weaseling because he refers to it as a "review" when the FBI calls it an investigation.

[creeksneakers2]

161. He says her lawyer is in contact with the FBI

It doesn't say they set up an interview. One is suspected, but all Hillary said is she hasn't been contacted about it. There is no reason to doubt her.

[IdaBriggs]

166. Actually, there is. She had also stated that her people hadn't been contacted

For interviews either, and within 48 hours the list who had ALREADY been interviewed began leaking. The interview is going to be happening "soon" and it is her attorney who is doing the scheduling (hence the lie because the attorney is her representative). Some of this information is also coming from sites that are simply not appropriate to be posting here, because unfortunately, right wing media is following it much closer than the left. Obviously one must take all of those sources with an appropriate grain of salt, but the leaks have been very clear about "May" being reasonable. (This would also make sense with the length of time the hacker has to stay here under the extradition agreement.)

[creeksneakers2]

167. Didn't this happen

subsequent to her saying she hasn't been contacted? She didn't say they wouldn't be contacted.

[IdaBriggs]

169. They started the interviews (Huma's first) in April.

She was apparently interviewed twice, and also Mills. Can't recall who else, but the leaks were public by May 5 on all the major networks, with Tweety even asking Blumenthal about it (and he was very defensive "I can't say&quot . Hillary did her denial about a week or so ago (but maybe people weren't saying anything to her?).

The worst part of this is that only the FBI is going to be able to say; leaks have to be vetted. We will see....

[creeksneakers2]

172. Are you sure she said no aides were interviewed?

I googled around on this and can't find it. I found a site that alleges she lied but she wasn't asked about aides. She was asked if any of her representatives were contacted about an interview, not aides.

http://legalinsurrection.com/2016/05/fbi-interview-days-or-weeks-away-but-hillary-knows-nothing/

[IdaBriggs]

173. May 3rd. I posted about the discrepancy that same week.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511907182

From the post (to save you the click):

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2016

Clinton: ‘I’m really focused on moving into the general election’, MSNBC, May 3, 2016
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/clinton-im-really-focused-moving-the-general-election

Hillary Clinton is ready to put the Democratic primary in her rear view mirror and get to work on Donald Trump.

She made that abundantly clear in an exclusive interview with MSNBC’s Andrea Mitchell Tuesday in West Virginia. Clinton also said that the FBI has still not contacted her regarding her private email server, and the Democratic front-runner detailed under what circumstances she would release transcripts of her paid speeches.
(snip)
And Clinton said neither she nor her staff have yet been contacted by the FBI, which is investigating the handling of classified information on the private email server she used a secretary of state. (more at link)

THURSDAY, MAY 5, 2016

First on CNN: FBI interviews Clinton aides including Huma Abedin as part of email probe, CNN, May 5, 2016
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/05/politics/fbi-interviews-huma-abedin-clinton-aide/index.html

(CNN) Some of Hillary Clinton's closest aides, including her longtime adviser Huma Abedin, have provided interviews to federal investigators, as the FBI probe into the security of her private email server nears completion, U.S. officials briefed on the investigation tell CNN. The investigation is still ongoing, but so far investigators haven't found evidence to prove that Clinton willfully violated the law the U.S. officials say.

In recent weeks, multiple aides have been interviewed -- some more than once, the officials said. A date for an FBI interview of Clinton has not been set, these officials said, but is expected in the coming weeks. Abedin has cooperated with the probe, the officials said. Lawyers for Abedin declined to comment. The officials say the interviews of Clinton and her aides would be a routine part of an investigation like this.

The probe remains focused on the security of the server and the handling of classified information and hasn't expanded to other matters, the officials said. Spokesmen for the FBI and Justice Department declined to comment. The Clinton campaign has not yet responded to CNN's request for comment. David Kendall, an attorney for Clinton, had no comment. (more at link)

[creeksneakers2]

198. Thanks for the links

I think I can see where the mix-up is.

From the MSNBC link:

"She made that abundantly clear in an exclusive interview with MSNBC’s Andrea Mitchell Tuesday in West Virginia."

The MSNBC link says she said her"staff" was not contacted. But here again is a link to the interview question:

http://legalinsurrection.com/2016/05/fbi-interview-days-or-weeks-away-but-hillary-knows-nothing/

Andre Mitchell asks her if her "representatives" have been contacted. That would be assumed to mean her lawyers. MSNBC read this as her "staff." So staff has turned into aides, which she never said.

Thanks very much for spending this much time with me on this. If I am wrong I'd love to know.

[IdaBriggs]

199. Except if her representatives meant lawyers...

again lie because regular contact versus no contact.

It's intended to be misleading and confusing word salad. She cannot just speak plainly because the truth is not good. (My opinion/interpretation.)

[creeksneakers2]

201. She wasn't asked if her lawyers had contact

She was asked if they were contacted about an interview.

Its only word salad if very plain language is mixed up.

[Jackilope]

83. Gasp and pearl clutching alert

Oh the humanity, watching the masses hit with the vapors and swoons by the delicate group that believes Hillary can do no wrong. These delicate flowers howled so when Bernie maintained that Americans don't want to choose the lesser of two evils.

But in the real world, that is what this farce has become.

With fingers firmly planted in ears, blinders firmly in place, and willful trust and willful overlook of DNC and antics the weakest and most flawed person is the presumed propped up front runner. Enablers, paid trolls, DNC riggers all own this. You were warned, red flags were waved and cue the Blame Bernie and His Supporters wails.

HRC cannot even carry the primary without resorting to dirty tricks. The general with her is going to be a train wreck.

[cali]

84. She's fundamentally sane. He is not.

[senz]

129. Neither is fundamentally sane.

Both are narcissists. A psychologist would probably say NPD.

She is FAR more obsessed with the presidency -- to the point that one doubts anything else matters for her.

She is also far more secretive and vengeful.

She has a very weird history of lawlessness, cheating, lying, and trying to hide her deeds. She doesn't seem to have a conscience.

I think they're both nuts.

If it comes down to those two, the American people should demand a redo. And would probably welcome the appearance of a new "normal" candidate.

[emulatorloo]

90. You forgot that Trump says has a bigger Penis than Rubio.

Last edited Sun May 22, 2016, 06:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Surely that should figure in your well reasoned calculus.

You steal this bullshit from Ida, or co-author it? At least give her some credit.

[senz]

104. Okay, I've got to go find the Ida OP.

[emulatorloo]

111. Link here: ha ha, I added the Penis thing myself, as he and Rubio were so juvenile about it.

Ida's thread here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512028871

Word for word the same as this OP I think.

[senz]

119. Hey: some of us do not consider "cocks" appropriate here.

Some things should be kept private.

Seriously: no more of this.

[emulatorloo]

153. Hey: Trump and Rubio brought it up, not me.

Therefore, needs to be considered in any discussion attempting to create idiotic false equivalencies between Trump and Clinton.

Editing out the cock word though.

[alcibiades_mystery]

113. It was hidden by a jury three minutes before this IDENTICAL OP was posted

[senz]

115. It looks like Ida's OP was censored by censorious authoritarians.

Perhaps this OP is an attempt to get the ideas out there? I could be okay with that, although the classy thing to do would have been to credit her but sometimes in the haste of GD-P warfare one forgets the finer points of life.

[emulatorloo]

117. Yes I too would have like to see credit given.

I don't agree w the OP, but clearly Ida put a lot of work into it.

[IdaBriggs]

221. It was actually inspired by a post with Skinner asking if there was a difference.

He was minimizing the email thing, and ignoring the many, Many, MANY other issues. I kept chewing on it, and posted this (which was promptly hidden). Obviously there was no attempt to refute my points. I went on a family outing ("Angry Birds" movie - twins are 9) and came back to this gratifying post - apparently the topic is worthy of discussion!

[emulatorloo]

224. Thanks for info!

Hope all the family had a good time!

[AgerolanAmerican]

98. I bet if you took a blind Clinton vs. Trump poll of DUers only

one with no negative consequences for giving an honest answer...

you might be surprised to see which one is more generally found to be preferable.

Sadly the way things are set up here there's no way to take such a pulse within the system.

[alcibiades_mystery]

99. Flagrant abuse of these boards: You knew dfamn well that the identical post was locked at 1:58

So you posted this at 2:02 to try your luck with a second jury.

Abusive and nasty stuff.

[pdsimdars]

101. Both, Bernide is the only good candidate.

Like asking if someone wants to eat dog food or cat food. . . . Neither, I'd rather have pizza.

[senz]

102. A friend of mine said it is like having to choose between

Htlr and Mslni.

The American people deserve better than this. Seriously, we do.

[SidDithers]

145. Your "friend" is fucking unhinged..

if they think Hillary is like either Hitler or Mussolini.



Sid

[kdmorris]

109. What a stupid fucking question... Trump is worse for America

There is no fucking competition...

[demwing]

134. Apparently there is

Thank the Clintons for that gift

[kdmorris]

137. Seriously?

I'm a Bernie Sanders supporter, but I'm not blind. Trump is awful... he would make a terrible president - worse than Bush, in my opinion - and Clinton is merely bad.

I can't believe what the primaries have done to DU.

[demwing]

174. Seriously. In fact, I'll go one further

Trump is a horrible human, but the damage that Trump might actually be able to inflict would be significantly less severe than the damage that Hillary could inflict, and easier to reverse.

Trump will have no support in Congress, and has all the right enemies.

Hillary is Koch tested, Koch approved, and has all the wrong friends.

There most certainly is a competition, and regardless of which of them wins, we the people will lose.

[Ino]

179. ^^ This, Exactly ^^ (nt)

[creeksneakers2]

208. Trump is likely to have a GOP Congress

with a tea party agenda that he would be very likely to sign off on. The first thing he did after he had the nomination clinched was go up to the GOP establishment leaders and bond with them.

[Tarc]

112. So this drek gets kept at 3-4

Yet

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512028871

gets a 5-2 hide. Literally the same post....with no source attribution either, so likely a copyright violation.

The DU jury system is well & truly broken.

PS - Actually, I'm flagging this as a copyvio. Hopefully there's admins on duty on a Sunday.

[alcibiades_mystery]

121. Forum hosts and Administrators need eyes on this behavior

Reposting previously hidden posts in hopes of a more friendly jury displays a level of disrespect for this board and community that is truly beyond belief.

[senz]

124. And yet the topic is worthy of discussion.

I wish Ida would weigh in.

[IdaBriggs]

164. Apologies - we took the kids to see "Angry Birds" with me taking

a DU break once the hide hit. Skinner asked the "do you think one is worse" question yesterday, and my brain kept chewing on it. I came back to it being posted, and I am grateful it has provoked discussion.

The upsetting bit is that the Hillary supporters who hate it really can't dispute the points with the only comments I can see being about protecting Roe v Wade. Once Hillary said she would be open to constitutional restrictions on abortion, my faith in her on that issue was destroyed.

[senz]

182. Thanks, Ida.

As you've probably seen, people have been angry about the current OP taking your work without crediting you. It's no fun having one's work lifted without acknowledgment, and it's big of you not to be angry about it.

I'm not surprised that Hillary's supporters can't dispute it. I don't get the impression that they back her for issue positions; I think it's something more psychological, an identification with her and her struggles. Yes, I too was shocked by the ease with which she flipped on abortion. At this point, I don't trust her on anything.

Hope Angry Birds was good. It's been crazy around here, as usual.

[Miles Archer]

122. A LOT of people dislike and distrust Clinton. A LOT.

And at this point the inevitable response is "Then why did she get so many votes," and my response is "Ask Debbie."

The constant assertions from Clinton supporters on DU that she will eviscerate Trump reminds me of the run-up to "Operation Desert Storm" when Saddam and his cronies assured the U.S. Military that "their blood will flow like rivers and the jackals will drink their blood."

What actually happened is that the Iraqi troops were ill-equipped and unfed and the jackals failed to quench their thirst.

It seems like every time someone says "People do not like or Trust Clinton" that the response from Clinton supporters is always some form of deflection, like "Well, Sanders is..." or "Why is she beating Sanders" or anything other than the simple acknowledgement that the dislike and distrust can't be pinned entirely on "GOP smear tactics."

Also, this Wasserman Shultz crap is REAL. It's not paranoia, it's not Bernie supporters acting like crybabies. It's real as rain, a lot of people are angered by it, and none of it reflects well on Clinton.

FROM CNN:

Now, as Trump prepares for a general election showdown and a pair of new polls show a statistical dead heat, veteran Democrats warn there is little room for complacency.

"I think that Trump as the nominee is an advantage for our party, but not nearly the advantage that some people had thought and hoped it would be," said Alderman, now with Cozen O'Connor Public Strategies. "I think he has proven to be a far more formidable candidate than expected."

"Here's the bad news -- this guy can win the general election pretty damn easily," Carson, who is now a producer on the Netflix series "House of Cards" and a Principal at Bloomberg Associates, wrote on his private account. "I hear far too many of my liberal friends calling him a 'joke' and acting like the general (election) is in the bag which is nuts because he's dangerous and he has a path to victory."

A new Washington Post/ABC News poll released Sunday finds a statistical dead heat, with Trump leading Clinton 46% to 44% among registered voters, figures that represent an 11% swing since March. The former secretary of state leads by six points among all adults -- down from an 18% lead in March.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/21/politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-nailbiter/

[ucrdem]

123. If you really think that's a question and if that's your real answer then you shouldn't be here.

This is a partisan board that supports partisan candidates.

[etherealtruth]

126. + infinity

I can understand liking Sanders a lot more than Clinton ....i probably "like" them both equally (and have equally significant, but different concerns about each) .... they are both head and shoulders (while wearing stilts) above Trump and the other psychos that rode the GOP clown car

[IdaBriggs]

222. I support Bernie Sanders (a Democrat) during this primary.

When or if Hillary Clinton becomes the nominee and the site owners demand silence, I will obviously not be posting much or at all anymore. I am personally hopeful those things will not happen and clapping like crazy for the Indictment Fairy.

[senz]

132. If that is the choice, we are ROYALLY SCREWED.

[NCTraveler]

133. I need look no further to know you are a white male. Nt

[insta8er]

135. And you are soooooo wrong it's not even funny anymore how wrong you are.

I'm also very well educated, and have my own business and am approaching 50. So since you threw in 1. The gender card, 2. The race card..what else do you want to throw in to stereotype me?

[NCTraveler]

141. I don't think I am wrong. Nt

[insta8er]

147. Whatever you need to tell yourself.

[gollygee]

144. Use of the phrases "the gender card" and "the race card" tell me anything about you I couldn't

figure out from the stupid stuff you posted in the OP.

[insta8er]

138. But God forbid, if I would ever assume that you were a female in her late 50s..I mean wow that would

open a can of worms.

[NCTraveler]

142. You are about fifteen years on the high side. Nt

[insta8er]

143. Thank you, I was not interested in that information.

[demwing]

139. Add to this list the fact that the Koch Bros seem to prefer Hillary

And that she's more likely to get some of her policies through than TRump is.

The only safe choice is Bernie or Bust

[imagine2015]

149. So you're asking which is the greater of two evils?

[seekthetruth]

151. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE NONE OF THE ABOVE!

Let's start a third party, shall we?

Given current events, this is exactly how these things happen!

[doc03]

152. It is sad that is what we have to chose from but anyone would be

insane to vote for that asshole TRump.

[Vote2016]

154. No. The question is whether progressives can work toward FDR's goals within the Democratic Party or

must we seek these goals outside of the Democratic Party structure?

[IdaBriggs]

155. Much thanks and appreciation -- I totally support this posting!

[NorthCarolina]

157. Flip a coin. -nt-

[rurallib]

160. what a pile

[pdsimdars]

165. No it is not. The question NOW, as in right NOW, is which is the better nominee-Bernie or Hillary

The "Hillary/Trump" does not yet exist.

[Nonhlanhla]

168. This is not a question.

If you cannot see how utterly horrible and dangerous Trump is, then you are beyond help.

[MyNameGoesHere]

170. If you need help in answering this question

you are in the wrong place.

[jfern]

171. What's better, death by trampling or gunshot?

[hertopos]

176. Are you real ?

I am not a white male. I am Asian female.

I am literally scared of Trump.

What about as simple as
1. Pro-choice
2. Obama care
3. Freedom of speech
4. People like KKK and white supremacists

How a question like this allowed in DU?

Hertopos

[Shadowflash]

181. ''The question is now: Which is WORSE for America - Hillary or Trump?''

Sadly, it's looking like this is what it's gonna come down to.

At least I got to vote FOR someone in the primary.

[rozdeep]

183. Just vote for eho you want to.

[apnu]

185. Hillary will not pack the courts with conservative assholes

Therefore, Trump is worse for America.

That was easy.

[senz]

186. She would pack them with Wall Street-friendly judges and justices.

If you like that, then Hill's the one for you.

[apnu]

187. Know that for a fact do you?

Can you tell me what next lottery numbers are?

[senz]

192. I know she is bought by Wall Street.

Her top doors are ALL Wall Street. Her secret speeches were to Wall Street. They have given her millions of dollars.

They own her.

Why makes you thinks she won't pack the courts with conservatives? Hm? Dubya calls her his "sister in law." Her mentor is Henry Kissinger. She takes money from Republicans. She hangs out with Republicans.

She's as rightwing as they come.

Do a little research.

[larkrake]

254. more corporate than wall street, same animal, but wide ranging

She and Bill push Globalization

[basselope]

190. I don't know that to be a true statement.

If she has a republican senate, she will likely give in to whatever they want, so we will wind up with a conservative asshole.

[MFM008]

253. really?

Obama gave in more to the gop. I didn't like it, it took him 6 years to learn.
You cant say for sure WHAT she will or wont do. She will have no love for the gop.
Dont be so sure Sanders will get a sneeze out without republicans voting against him or trying to impeach him either.

[basselope]

275. Really.

I don't trust her. Believe her or have ANY faith in her.

[AtomicKitten]

188. Hillary would be much, much worse on foreign policy.

Last edited Sun May 22, 2016, 10:22 PM - Edit history (1)

[George II]

189. Interesting, this was posted earlier today and was a 5-2 hide. If at first you don't succeed...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512028871

On Sun May 22, 2016, 02:54 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

The question is now: Which is WORSE for America - Hillary or Trump?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512028871

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

I know that we're supposed to cut people slack during the primaries, but this is over the top RW garbage.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun May 22, 2016, 02:58 PM, and the Jury voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Right wing garbage for sure. Implying (if not outright stating) that Donald Trump is better than Hillary Clinton?
This DUer should be PPRd before the day it out. HIDE HIDE HIDE
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see no TOS violations.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Nope.

[basselope]

191. I'll answer the question and it will probably get hidden. Hillary is worse.

The economy is teetering on the edge and it is very VERY likely the next president will deal with a recession towards the end of their term. If Clinton gets in, we will wind up with someone WORSE than Trump. However, if Trump gets in, he gets to deal with the coming recession and we get ONE MORE CHANCE to elect the next FDR, instead of someone who will just turn up the pot a few more degrees so we don't notice the boiling.

It is more likely that the president elected in 2020 will be the one with more Supreme Court nominees.

[Xyzse]

195. This is a gamble I don't wish to play. However, my thoughts did consider that factor as well.

Hillary winning will depress progressive ideals, much like it has happened with Obama. There is a far rightward trend that has formed during his Presidency. In caving to their insane demands, it has legitimized their point of view, where the country has then been held hijacked by crazies. Then, he had the temerity to castigate Democrats who did not want to vote for his badly negotiated deals. This, will only continue with a Clinton presidency, and leave the Independents and new Democrats feeling what's the point.

When the choice is bad and worse, trying to figure out the degree quite often times leads to apathy and powerlessness.

It is why I keep saying now to concentrate on lower races.

No matter who, I am hoping that state races can mitigate the oncoming troubles looming.

I also did consider that perhaps Trump winning would energize Democrats to finally start moving again and fight for what is right, beyond the passive stances that they have been playing. To actually push for meaningful workable legislation.

Again, that is not a gamble I wish to play. However, I entered that in my mental calculations as well.

There are many reasons why, when trying to predict performance and being fair about it is hard, since the more factors you add, it tends to show items that may dampen effectiveness of either candidate, making their negatives come closer to an equivalency.

Items such as:
-Effect on their respective parties and opposition parties.
-Effect on Independents, and their constituents.
-How China would like to deal with them (yes, I paid attention to this too).
-Ability to get things passed.
-Negotiating style.
-What actual promises they have made.
-Who they are beholden to.
-The way the campaigned and were treated by the Establishment.
-How the Establishment views them.
-Would the premise of trying to preserve the status quo, (moving one step forwards and three steps back) which brings us to the brink of disaster slowly be better than going to a different direction which is probably the wrong way would lead to the better outcome?
-Their agendas. Would having the right agenda, but negotiated to the point of senselessness that creates unintended consequences be better than having the wrong agenda, but fought tooth and nail to try to make it better be more fruitful?

There are many others that I considered but have not enumerated. It is why in my calculations thus far... Hillary fares better than Trump but not by much, and I am not even convinced about it.

Which is besides the point since I can't see her winning at this time.

All that brings me back to my idea of concentrating on local races. I can only wish the Hillary supporters good luck. It would be a miracle to pull off a win in the GE.

[larkrake]

255. I think most of us feel this way, thanx

[Xyzse]

288. Thank you.

[Eko]

193. Thomas Jefferson would be so proud of you.

[jcgoldie]

194. Jesus christ

what an embarrassment you are for posting this tripe.

[Beausoir]

197. My exact reaction.

These BernieBros are everywhere.

[Beacool]

200. Are you even a Democrat?

If you are, the question answer itself.

[underthematrix]

202. I can't imagine a POC asking this question

NAZI Trump is obviously worse.

[BellaLuna]

203. What is the goal of posts like this?

Is it purely flamebait or are we just to be insulted for not thinking Bernie is the second coming of Christ?

Don't vote then. Go on with your righteous indignation if it makes you feel better.

[larkrake]

256. Balanced discussion not aimed at either Hill or Bernie folk is my guess

what is the goal of your reply? why not say you disagree, then refute anything said. This is a forum, not a clique fest

[onenote]

207. I'll get hidden for this probably,

but on behalf of my lesbian cousin, and my African-American law partner, and my Muslim neighbors:

Go F*ck yourself.

[Buzz cook]

209. How much better will the US be under president Clinton than Sanders

It's still the primaries, or so I'm told, so I don't have to pick between Trump and Clinton yet. I have to pick between Clinton and Sanders.

So I'm picking the smart on over the shouty old man.

[larkrake]

257. cant think of one thing she has offered, actually

[Rex]

210. That is a bullshit question.

And your username, boring not clever at all...

[akbacchus_BC]

211. Thrump is the worst. That guy does not know his mouth from

his asshole -- sorry! If he is presidential, then America would be better off with a Doberman!

[barrow-wight]

212. This is just a rude and terrible OP.

The very worst democrat would be better than Trump. Even Bernie would be better.

[larkrake]

258. well, the real picture isnt always rosy. The blunt truth rarely is

et al:"honey, do I look fat in these pants?"

"Yes dear" is truthful, and reality, but rude nevertheless

[barrow-wight]

263. It may be blunt but it's far from truth.

[larkrake]

266. I agree to disagree, I see the same vision

[barrow-wight]

270. I hope you're right for all our sakes.

If Mr. Trump does indeed win, may you never feel buyer's remorse.

[larkrake]

272. I wont vote for either I only vote for good people- Kerry and Obama

Buyers remorse is inevitable in this election, so I wont buy anything above Congress.

[barrow-wight]

273. Good luck to all of us then.

Funny you should mention Kerry. He voted for the same use of force in Iraq that folks here rip Hillary apart for.

[larkrake]

284. Maybe, but he didnt get up and do a rah-rah speech for it, pitchfork in hand

[barrow-wight]

289. Ah. What creative uses of nuance you employ.

[cliffordu]

213. Our very own Richard Nixon

She is.

[akbacchus_BC]

214. Why are you being so facetious? You very well know that Mr. Sanders

is better for America that the old establishment, Mrs. Clinton, the Wall Street woman.

[JDPriestly]

215. Bernie Sanders is the most electable candidate in the end.

He focuses on the issues. He is, like everyone else, human and no doubt has made mistakes in his life. But his focus is on social and economic justice and Americans increasingly share that focus.

The election this year may prove irrelevant as America just lingers in a sort of political limbo afraid to take the obvious steps that would lead to economic and social justice and better lives for 99% of Americans.

It's a matter of time.

Bernie is the winner no matter who moves into the White House next November.

Bernie has shown the American people that the oligarchy has no clothes (in the case of Trump's current, number three wife, I understand that is quite a literal fact insofar as the internet goes -- haven't seen any pictures myself so I take that back if the rumors are untrue) whether Republican or Democratic.

And so Bernie, no matter how the votes are counted, is the winner. History will view him as the winner. Those of you who will long outlive me will remember: you read it here.

Hillary, if elected, will continue to blunder and kill all around the world.

Trump, if elected, will continue to bluster and kill -- all around the world.

Bernie -- will always be viewed as the man he is, the man of courage who tells the truth and who is leading the way to a better future for Americans. That's how you define the winner -- the person with the vision, the person who tells the truth, the person who leads to the future.

All the rest is noise.

[auntpurl]

216. Jury shopping. This is shameful.

I can't believe this post was allowed to stand on a purportedly Democratic website.

Anyone who can't see the difference between Trump and Hillary is either wilfully obtuse or just obtuse.

[larkrake]

260. he did not say they were the same. Their faults are not totally in sync

debate is healthy, so if you arent comfortable, there is the Hillary group

debate and swapping opinions is a democratic process

[RBInMaine]

218. It is an INSANE question. My goodness, has the LUNACY really gone this far?

[PowerToThePeople]

220. Rec for pissing off all of DUs right wingers!

I don't have a comment on op.

[JoePhilly]

225. More Trump fluffing.

[BootinUp]

236. +1

[Maven]

227. Anyone who believes this is a legitimate question is either a liar or an idiot.

[demwing]

232. or they're right

See how easy it is to say or write something without bothering to offer any underlying support?

[Maven]

233. The support is self-evident to all except those who are blind or wish to deceive

My original point stands. Anyone who suggests, as this OP does, that there is a chance Trump might be a more favorable choice to lead this country than Hillary Clinton is either a liar or an idiot. The real question is, what is the OP and those who support him/her doing on a site for Democrats?

[demwing]

234. Ah... the "No true Scotsman" fallacy!

Last edited Mon May 23, 2016, 05:45 PM - Edit history (2)

You can't counter the argument, so you throw down a logical fallacy ("No true Democrat&quot and pretend you've taken the high road. Not only is it fallacious, it's sanctimonious as well.

But in response to your question: &quot W)hat is the OP and those who support him/her doing on a site for Democrats?"

I'd answer that we're trying, in whatever way we can, to do what's right for our Party and for our country.

[larkrake]

262. Or opem-minded. Some may need to look that up in a dictionary

[2banon]

230. No, the Question RIGHT NOW is: Which is better, Hillary or Bernie

Bernie is the best candidate in the past 40 years, hands down.

arguing who is better Hillary or Trump is obviously ridiculous on Democratic party board. No body here thinks Drumpf!

[Martin Eden]

231. I support Bernie. I dislike and distrust Hillary Clinton. Trump is orders of magnitude worse.

Electing Donald Trump President of the United States of America would confirm to the rest of the world that the American people are indeed a bunch of stupid, ignorant, bigoted racists who don't know the difference between reality and reality TV.

Hillary Clinton represents the status quo, though somewhat more hawkish. With some variations she would be a continuation of the last 8 years. Most of the world (including our closest allies) would heave a sigh of relief. She is considerably more respected abroad than at home.

In my opinion Donald Trump should not be allowed within 10 locked doors of the nuclear codes. He is the most unfit person in my lifetime of 58 years (and probably in our nation's history) to have a realistic chance of winning the presidency.

[auntpurl]

237. RESPONSE FROM SKINNER RE: THIS DISGUSTING THREAD

In ATA:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125910417

Frankly I find it appalling that anyone here would think that stuff is ok.

Even during primary season, there really ought to be some minimum standards. Sadly, we have learned that many DUers will permit anything provided it smears their disfavored primary candidate.

Once the primaries are over we will have zero tolerance for that crap.

[insta8er]

238. Yes, we should make DU more like the real world. Where money buys you speech!

The MSM is in the pockets of big money, they dictate what message we will get to see. The internet is something that is less regulated and where most of us can have a say. I alway find it strange to see that people somehow like to mimic the rest of our corporate run and controlled world because they don't like the message. In some countries people who stifle others people's speech and or opinion are called dictators....I thought we were democrats?

[auntpurl]

239. If you want to have free speech that includes pro-Trump rhetoric

why would you join a Democratic message board? There must be literally thousands of open discussion boards on the internet.

This board IS self-selecting and it says so right there in the TOS when you join. If you don't want to support Democrats and help Democrats get elected, you don't belong here. Disfavourably comparing ANY Democrat, or for that matter the ficus plant in the corner of my room, to Donald Fucking Trump is disgusting and has no place here.

Why do I choose to "stifle" discussion? Because I can go anywhere out in the world and be surrounded by conservative assholes. I choose to come here where I am SUPPOSED to be surrounded by Democrats. There are still PLENTY of things on which we disagree, but hating Donald fucking Trump and understanding that ANY Democrat is a million times better is not supposed to be one of them.

[insta8er]

241. Listen, I don't care about Trump..but the fact is that it looks like it is going to be between him

and our candidate. So what the .... do you want? we are laying out the differences between the 2 candidates. Deal with it.

[auntpurl]

242. That is not what you did; you're being disingenuous.

Luckily this sort of thing will not be tolerated here much longer. It completely violates the statement of purpose of this website as you well know, since the first version of this was locked by a jury. This was jury shopping. It is shameful and I look forward to the day in the VERY near future when unmitigated idiocy like this thread is eradicated.

[insta8er]

243. Our conversation is done....have a nice day!

[larkrake]

264. No hes not, we need to be aware of and know the enemy

This election is a very close call between one not known and one too well known, both with high negatives. This OP is valid and healthy.

Maybe you dont, but I like to be informed of a potential disaster down the road, weigh her chances against a bulldozer. Of coarse Trump is worse, that is a fact, but it doesnt make her less dispised by too many people, way too many people,

[larkrake]

247. Trump is too loony

But if we are comparing pros and cons,

I would rather have 4 yrs of isolationism than 4 more years of accellerating wars

Hillary will protect womens rights

Neither will look at inequality, or fixing infrastructure, and both will expand the pentagon

Trump would go back to fair trade with tariffs to fill our coffers, but stall minimum wage or erase it

Hillary will be feared but ignored by congress

Trump will have handlers and the nuclear codes kept from his puny hands and hopefully his mouth stitched shut

[B Calm]

240. We deserve a better choice than these 2 candidates. They both have terrible unfavorability ratings.

Oh there is a better choice, BERNIE SANDERS!

[LanternWaste]

245. You're confusing "analysis" with "editorial that avoids citing any objective sources."

You're confusing "analysis" with "editorial that avoids citing any objective sources." That seems to be one of many flaws indicative of someone deciding they won't vote.

(Space provided below for anyone to rationalize the OP as Analysis rather than Editorial... I look forward to the Gilligan's Island wisdom it will require.)

[JDPriestly]

259. K&R.

[Betty Karlson]

265. Nope: the question is still - thank goodness - who is best for the Democratic Party.

Sanders or Clinton. If only for Clinton's negative coattails ( downticket disasters) and her all too real chance to lose the White House to Trump, I'd say we should go with Sanders.

And then there is the Sanders platform, and Sanders' record, and his FBI-investigation-free status, and....

[larkrake]

268. agreed, but the OP doesnt include Sanders

as far as I am concerned, Sander's faults are so minor that he is blamed for breathing air, standing up for the disenfranchized and minorities (soon to become majorities), and fighting a very successful fight against giants.

At the same time, I dont believe in the human race, so suspect he will not win.We have to look into the barrel of rotten apples and choose to vote for Hill or leave that election and vote just state candidates

[merrily]

267. Long-term or short-term?

[larkrake]

269. good question!

[merrily]

271. .

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG] Thank you most kindly.

[Lil Missy]

274. What bullshit. Maybe you don't belong here?

Per Skinner, regarding this thread:

Even during primary season, there really ought to be some minimum standards. Sadly, we have learned that many DUers will permit anything provided it smears their disfavored primary candidate.

Once the primaries are over we will have zero tolerance for that crap.

[bigwillq]

276. Trump would be worse

I don't like Ms. Clinton, but if she is elected, fine.

Although I also prefer none of the above.

[Drum]

277. Just this:

[whatthehey]

279. It's only a "question" for morons.

[Faux pas]

281. My answer is

Write In!

[brooklynite]

282. Since Clinton will be the nominee...and since this site is set up to HELP ELECT DEMOCRATS...

...don't feel the need to hang around in the meantime.

[workinclasszero]

283. I sincerely hope anyone that thinks Trump would be better than Hillary

Takes their twisted point of view over to redstate or freakrepublic ASAP where they appreciate right wing insanity.

Just a few more weeks of water carrying for Trump around here then the hammer is coming down!

[demmiblue]

285. Trump, duh.

Hillary is status quo, but Trump is insane.

[cpwm17]

286. When someone is an enthusiastic member of the crowd that launched

the World's worst crime this century, the Iraq War, and is a good friend with the World's worst living mass-murderer, Henry Kissinger, then that someone deserves no sympathy when she is compared to fucking Donald Trump.

[Orsino]

287. The answer is always: Trump. n/t

[geek tragedy]

290. transparency is a wonderful thing nt