I love the hypocrisy of the Sanders supporters that shout "DEMOCRACY" while calling for

[Renew Deal]

super-delegates to overturn the will of the voters.

[Hiraeth]

1. I love the hypocrisy of the Clinton supporters that shout "DEMOCRACY" while denying the

voter suppression that took place in Nevada.

[samsingh]

5. There was no voter suppression. about 60 candidates didn't bother to register, showed up late

didn't follow the rules but wanted them changed.

and it would make no difference to the outcome.

[LiberalFighter]

6. Worse than that... they had nearly 500 spots they didn't fill.

[samsingh]

12. i know. It's completely insane what is being complained about

[Hiraeth]

33. late? omg. laughable on so many levels.

late for democracy. Mussolini's democracy runs on time. oh shit.

the jokes just write themselves.

you guys.

really.



don't get me started.

[hrmjustin]

17. Hillary won Nevada fairly in February.

You guys really need to stop being sore over Nevada.

[CrowCityDem]

32. If you're talking about the convention, that's not voting. Voting is when Bernie lost the first time

[hrmjustin]

2. Second place is the new first place.

[samsingh]

3. You are COMPLETELY correct. Stay tuned for the backlash to your real statement

[TheBlackAdder]

4. While decrying a system, one must still operate within the institutional confines of it. Weak tea OP

.


I'm sure there are things in your life that you don't agree with, but must accept as the parameters in place.


.

[m-lekktor]

14. yep, i see shitty reasoning like in this OP all the time from the right.

mostly calling far leftists critical of capitalism hypocrites for being employed in a capitalist system as if they didn't need to eat and pay the bills as well.

[aikoaiko]

7. HRC supporters should support this attempt because it is allowable under the rules.

And we all know how much HRC zealots love the rules.

I don't think it will work and I'm not fond of the move, but rules are rules.

[SheenaR]

8. In our current Democratic system

We have Super Delegates. Their choice does NOT overturn the will of the voters. They were chosen for this position to make a decision THEY feel is best.

Their job is not to sit down and analyze state by state results. Their job is to choose the candidate they feel should represent the Party, no matter who that is.

It is the same reason why my state of RI was carried by Bernie, yet every Super has voiced their preliminary preference for Clinton. If they choose to vote for her on the floor, they exercised their RIGHT. They did NOT overturn my vote. My vote went to the PLEDGED delegates.

It is our Democratic System. It's by the rules. Nobody is having their will overturned. That's what PLEDGED delegates are for. Vter will in EVERY state is carried out through pledged delegates (Though Wyoming may feel differently). The Supers who have voiced a preference and who have not voiced one are not bound to anyone until they cast that vote on the floor.

So it seems more like you need to learn about our Democracy before you call people hypocrites and lecture them.

[rateyes]

9. So, you think all of the supers from Washington

State should vote for Bernie rather than overturning the will of their state's voters. Gotcha.

[hack89]

13. It wouldn't change things - Bernie would still lose.

I would support changing things just to make Alan Grayson have to vote for Hillary.

[rateyes]

21. I am just trying to make sure that you don't

become one of those hypocrites. I hope you now advocate primarying Dems who don't vote as supers the way that their constituents voted. Otherwise, that would be a demonstration of hypocrisy.

[PeaceNikki]

24. I am in WI. The majority, not ALL of the state went for Sanders. Primarying Tammy Baldwin would be

fucking ridiculous for about 1500 reasons.

[hack89]

31. No - I do not support primarying Dems

I will leave that up to their constituents. For example, in RI, that would mean primarying some of the most liberal members of congress like Jack Reed and Sheldon Whitehouse. That would be incredibly stupid which is why no one is even mentioning it.

[PeaceNikki]

23. And your thoughts on Alan Grayson's SD pledge and Florida?

[Orsino]

10. Another goddamned "supporters" thread. n/t

[AgingAmerican]

11. Translation: without super delegates, Hillary cannot win the nomination

[hack89]

15. Same for Bernie, correct?

that being the case, shouldn't the supers support the candidate with the most pledged delegates?

[imagine2015]

19. Yes it's the same for Bernie. So hopefully the super delegates will display some common sense and

vote for the candidate who can beat Trump, that would be Bernie.

And they would not nominated the candidate disliked and distrusted by most voters, that would be Hillary Clinton.

Why would you want such a disliked and hated candidate to run against Trump, especially when she is doing so poorly against him national and in battleground states.

It will only gets worse for her once Trump goes after her if she captures the nomination.

I really don't trust and dislike Hillary.

What's there to like?

It's all about money and representing her rich friends who helped make her and William a whole lot richer!

[hack89]

20. So the supers should ignore the primary results?

what's the point of having primaries then? Why not simply pick a nominee based on polls?

[PeaceNikki]

27. Has any state gone 100% for one candidate? Which SD's should follow the will of which voters?

[hack89]

34. Having the SDs go with their states would still leave Bernie short.

Hillary has too many blowout wins in large states. SDs will be irrelevant to the results - the candidate with the most pledged delegates will win. Which is the way it should be. Correct?

[PeaceNikki]

36. Yeah, but it would not make a difference

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/16/politics/democratic-superdelegate-math-sanders-clinton/

[hack89]

39. Which is what I said. Thanks. nt

[hrmjustin]

18. Neither can Sanders.

And btw if you get rid of the supers Hillary wins.

[Renew Deal]

42. I think you're in for a big surprise on June 7 at around 9-10PM

[imagine2015]

16. Since you're all for democracy do you think super delegates should not be allowed to vote in July?

[Beacool]

22. That's what happens when a socialist pretends to be a Democrat.

It's not about democracy and the will of the people. It's about imposing his views and voters be damned. How dare they not see the light??? Sanders has demonstrated no grace or class in the final weeks of the nominating process. Instead of pivoting to attacking Trump, he has ramped up his attacks against the Democratic party and Hillary.

I had no problem with him staying until all states have voted, it's only fair. What I find outrageous is Sanders and his two attack weasels' contention that super delegates should switch to him because he does better against Trump in match-up polls.

Of all the unmitigated nerve!!! These three do have a brass set if they think that it's democratic to deny the nomination to the actual winner of the primary process based on match-up polls that mean squat this early on.

[PufPuf23]

38. Are you pretending to not know the difference between socialism and a social democracy?

Or maybe you truly do not know but you strike me as an intelligent and informed individual?

Bernie Sanders is a social democrat in political philosophy not a socialist.

Just what if Sanders has a better projection against Trump in the general election and more chance to win POTUS than Clinton?

Social democracy was the core economic and political philosophy of the Democratic party until the infiltration by neo-liberals.

What if the members of the Democratic party, former members, independents, members of third parties, and cross over GOP would provide more votes for the Democratic party with Sanders in the general election and that the Democratic party have better down ticket success because Sanders brings out more voters?

I think Clinton will be the nominee and, if not, the DNC and Democratic establishment will attempt and probably succeed in replacing Hillary Clinton with a candidate, say Biden or Kerry, other than Sanders.

Looks to me that the Democratic establishment and Clinton supporters would rather risk losing the POTUS to Trump and having less down ticket success because they do not want Sanders.

===============================

Socialism defined

a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Social democrat defined

Social democracy is a political ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a capitalist economy, and a policy regime involving welfare state provisions, collective bargaining arrangements, regulation of the economy in the general interest, measures for income redistribution, and a commitment to representative democracy.

[Beacool]

56. I know the difference.

I still think that Sanders is not a Democrat. By his own admission, he only joined the party to garner media attention. I had no doubt that he was never going to be the nominee. He has a right to stay in the race until all votes have been cast, but at the very least he should try to exhibit a modicum of grace and stop attacking the party and it's prospective nominee. Unless seeing Trump in the WH is something that doesn't worry him.

[PufPuf23]

25. At the beginning of the primary season, we were told that most super-delegates were

already pledged to Hillary Clinton; however, super-delegates can not be formally pledged and can vote for whom they chose at first convention and other ballots if there is not a nominee at first ballot.

This is a very explanatory article from The Guardian regarding the Democratic party super-delegate system.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/19/democratic-party-superdelegates-history-rules-changes

Who are the Democratic super-delegates and where did they come from?

Super-delegates were created in the early 1980s after elected officials and party elders realized they were cut out of the nomination process.

At the Democratic national convention in July, 719 people will cast votes for Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders to be the presidential nomination who were not selected at any primary or caucus.

These are the so-called super-delegates, but it is not their role at the convention, nor any special powers or abilities, that makes them super. It is their stupendous ability to attract controversy.

There are three ways to become a super-delegate. The first is to be elected to public office as a Democratic governor, senator or congressman. The second is to become one of 438 members of the Democratic National Committee as a loyal party activist or powerbroker. The third and most difficult is to become a super-delegate for life by having served as president, vice-president, DNC chair or Democratic leader in either chamber of the US Congress.

more at link

==================================================
The purpose of the super-delegates is so that senior Democrats can override the general vote of Democratic party members should a mistake be made in selection of a grassroots candidate that is unlikely to win or is otherwise flawed in their perception. Specific conditions can change with gravitas during the primary season.

Maybe Hillary Clinton is now a flawed grassroots candidate as well as a mistake made by the DNC in treating Clinton as an incumbent and presumptive nominee?

I think such a shift in the super-delegates away from Clinton is unlikely but is possible. In the case that between now and the nominating convention something was to occur that Clinton was no longer available, I would actually expect the Democratic party to try to replace Clinton with a candidate other than Bernie Sanders. To avoid Sanders is probably one motive why Sanders has been asked to quit for months now.

I find it somewhat unsettling to hear that some of the super-delegates are lobbyists rather than a more direct fit into the three categories as described. I guess activist or power broker could include lobbyist.

==================================================

Delegate tracker: Democrats (From The Guardian)

Democratic presidential hopefuls need to win 2,383 delegates to secure the party's nomination. These include pledged delegates, which are awarded through state primary and caucus votes, and super delegates, which consist of party elites who can vote however they choose.

2,383 delegates needed for nomination. pledged and super-delegates. Totals as of May 24, 1016

Clinton

2,305 current total

1,768 pledged

537 super-delegates


Sanders

1,539 current total

1,497 pledged

42 super-delegates.

[Vinca]

26. Superdelegates are already overturning the will of the voters.

If a state goes strongly Bernie and all the supers go to Hillary, tens of thousands (or more) of Bernie voters have had their votes cancelled out. Get rid of the supers. Everyone's vote should be equal to one vote. There shouldn't be elite voters who can disenfranchise thousands of voters who might have waited in line for hours to cast a ballot.

[PeaceNikki]

30. He'd still be losing by an unshakable amount if SD's were assigned proportionally by state.

[Vinca]

35. That's fine. At least we would know it was a loss that happened fair and square.

Do away with the supers entirely. They're completely unnecessary and make the Democratic Party appear very undemocratic.

[PeaceNikki]

37. You'll know that before convention.

[Vinca]

40. With all the superdelegate funny business I doubt I'll ever feel good about this election.

The end result was determined before there was more than 1 candidate in the race.

[PeaceNikki]

41. What "funny business"?

[Vinca]

55. Hundreds declared for Hillary before there was anyone else in the race for starters.

How can you possibly know who you are committed to unless the outcome has been pre-determined long before the race even starts? It may all be on the up and up, but it looks sleazy and creates an undemocratic image of the Democratic Party.

[PeaceNikki]

57. That's not "funny business". She's a well-known, well liked Democrats among Democrats.

[Vinca]

58. Whatever. There is no need at all for superdelegates. Period.

[PeaceNikki]

59. That doesn't make them count any less. That also doesn't make them corrupt.

The vast majority are strong leaders who have worked very hard in, with and for our party for years.

[Vinca]

60. Others might see it as a united front against progressive change.

There's no need for them. They've got to go.

[AtomicKitten]

28. Hypocrisy, thy name is Camp Weathervane.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512042505

[yurbud]

29. something everyone should have learned during the Bush years: no one cares about process

only the outcome.

[polly7]

43. Both Clintons pressured the SDs in 2008 to nominate Hillary even though she lost the delegate count

AtomicKitten (46,229 posts)

Both Clintons pressured the SDs in 2008 to nominate Hillary even though she lost the delegate count

While Bill Clinton personally called the SDs directly arguing that Americans would not vote to elect a black president, Hillary sent this letter to the SDs arguing that even though she came in second they should nominate her.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512042505

[Renew Deal]

44. So do you think they did the right thing?

[polly7]

45. YOUR OP said it was hypocritical, I didn't post that. What do YOU think? nt.

[Renew Deal]

46. I think the people that shout democracy and call for the Super-delegates to overturn the will

of the voters are hypocrites. What do you think?

[polly7]

47. I think it's 'hypocritical' to slur one for contacting SD's while not doing so for your own

candidate and her husband.

That's what I think.

I also think it would be hypocritical of the Clintons to even mention this wrt Sanders campaign, don't you?

[Renew Deal]

48. Hillary was my candidate in 2008?

Good to know.

I don't have a problem with contacting supers other than the means that some people have used to contact them. But the people talking about "democracy" and then saying "we will win because supers will realize how righteous our cause is" are hypocrites.

[polly7]

49. Hillary isn't your candidate now?

The rest of your post is exactly what the Clintons did in 2008. You should read the full link.

[Renew Deal]

50. Should Sanders 2016 do what Hillary 2008 did?

[polly7]

52. Were they wrong to do it? nt.

[Renew Deal]

53. I saw it the same way then as I do now.

Where do you stand?

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. You have a point. One of the few ways in which Clinton supporters are consistent...

... is their disdain for anything that looks like democracy. "RECOUNT? Are you kidding???"

I have no doubt that people who like democracy and who are simultaneously playing within the rules the DNC created look like hypocrites, but you don't fix problems like the one exemplified by the DNC unless you win elections.

[Skwmom]

54. The Superdelegates were used since day one to maniupulate the vote.

[barrow-wight]

61. It's not like it matters.

They can beg till they're blue in the face. All most supers will remember are the threats and abuse they've had to deal with throughout this primary season and the fact that even places like the bar where Roberta Lange happens to work are targeted with constant harassment as though they have anything to do with her actions.

[baldguy]

62. And they whine about honesty & integrity while they demand SDs go back on their word.