Even if you dislike Bernie you're an idiot to trash him now

[Tom Rinaldo]

I don't mean disagreeing with him on policy, or even expressing concern over how his continued candidacy might possibly adversely impact Hillary Clinton moving forward. And this has nothing to do with whether you think it is crazy to still hold out hope that Sanders still can win the nomination. I'm talking about the future of the Democratic Party, and that has nothing to do with whether or not you consider Bernie to be a good Democrat, or a Democrat at all. It does have to do, however, with the millions of people who have mobilized to support him for President, whether or not they previously, or even now, considered themselves good Democrats.

Since the overall craziness of 1968, I can only think of two times when the Democratic Party was this divided this late into a Presidential election year; 2008 with Obama and Clinton, and 1980 with Carter and Kennedy. It is worth noting that in both instances the loser of the nomination in those years did not exactly fade into the background afterwards, they remained major players in the Democratic Party and they continued to have a strong base of support within it. So yes, our Party has been split deeply before and that split doesn't magically vanish even when a Democrat wins the Presidency, it requires continued care and management or ill effects linger.

And yes that is a two way street, but the winner in any primary fight starts out with an advantage; they won. Power and respect flows naturally, at least to an extent, toward the winner of such contests. That heals lots of wounds. But the primary battle we now find ourselves in the midst of in 2016 is atypical in a very significant way; it has exposed a deep chasm generational divide among Democrats. The only thing close to this that has happened with Democrats before happened in 2008, and that year the candidate backed by youth won. No perceived door was thus slammed in the face of their future hopes and aspirations.

Hillary Clinton is far, far, far from being an idiot. For that reason among others, should she win the Democratic nomination, I expect her to be quite deft in her efforts to appeal to Sanders' base of support. I have less confidence in the wisdom and ability of most of the Democratic Party establishment to deal with Sanders supporters, at a more local level, with the same degree of tact. Because in many cases, often justifiably, they feel personally threatened by the gathering forces of the political revolution that Bernie Sanders has begun to harness. The handwriting though is very much on the virtual wall that tens of millions of younger Americans log onto daily. The extent of the ideological demographic shift, along generational lines, now sweeping across the nation is staggering. Either the Democrat Party will learn to accommodate it, or it will be swept away and cannibalized for parts by new political alignments that will rise up in its wake.

The Democratic Party establishment would be wise to recognize that in Bernie Sanders it has a potentially invaluable ally in helping it make the turn that will enable it to survive, albeit it in a significantly reformed new version of itself. Bernie is no wild eyed radical, he is a deeply progressive pragmatist who has worked alongside of establishment politicians across the political spectrum, within the system, for all of his long and productive life. Either the Democratic Party can help Bernie Sanders channel the cresting new generations of progressive political activists into the Democratic Party, or it will suffer the inevitable and grievous consequences of having failed to do so.

[workinclasszero]

1. Has sanders stopped attacking/suing the democratic party yet?

They have a right to self defense no?

[Bluenorthwest]

26. In 2008 Hillary supporting Florida Congress people sued the DNC most harshly

over stripping Florida's delegates. Sued them for violating the Voting Rights Act among other things. Senator Bill Nelson, Alcee Hastings etc.

Of course she supported that suit and Florida's petition to be seated.

[puffy socks]

51. Did any of her staffers break into the DNC computers

after which she sued for damages, like Bernard?

[arcane1]

2. There is definitely no shortage of idiots here, especially since mid-April.

[elleng]

9. Right.

[cali]

5. Tom is unfailingly courteous, respectful and patient

Yes, he said people trashing Bernie are idiots, but that is mild in these parts. He is one of the l east inflammatory and most thought ful posters here.

[Tom Rinaldo]

30. Thank you Cali. n/t

[Fawke Em]

45. Even more can't stand Hillary...

Just sayin'.

[cali]

4. Hi, Tom. Well, you've written another astute post.

I agree with what you wrote except for not sharing your belief that Clinton will handle this rift in the party deftly, despite her formidable intelligence.

[Tom Rinaldo]

8. I expect her efforts to be deft, after becoming the nominee (assuming she does)

Deft as in the opposite of clumsy. I am less confident that she will do more than attempt to artfully paper over differences however. Sadly I think many in the establishment won't see a need to even try that. They would rather attempt to overtly crush the threat that Sanders represents to them

[beachbumbob]

6. So telling the truth about Bernie is bad?

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. If you are a conservative Democrat

then I suppose one would have little to lose by trashing Bernie - with or without the truth as one perceives it. And I am not pretending to know your own personal political leanings - just making a general comment.

But look, there is no such thing as a one size fits all political commentary. I wrote this to make a larger point, not to put down individuals. That is why I chose the word "trash" rather than "criticize". I's kind of like if the shoe fits wear it.

[beachbumbob]

16. America is not a center-left country...it's pretty much center...

Sanders has been so far out there...to left...and his biggest followers are even further to the left..And the problem..these people want a purity test...which makes them no different than tea party conservatives. The Democratic Party has been a big ten party...and we have those who want an ideological purity of leftist/extreme leftist viewpoints...it's a failure to do so..

We can argue back and forth all we want but if trump and conservatives have unchecked power...America as we know it ceases to exist..I say..take the ideological bull rap and stuff it and pay attention to what we all lose

Unless that's the intention in the first place

[B Calm]

31. Yeah, that's something Rush Limbaugh tells his audience.

[beachbumbob]

34. I doubt you haver heard that from Limbaugh...

[B Calm]

35. Seeing how I use to drive 3,000 miles every week, I've been known to listen once in awhile. Yep

sounds like propaganda Rush spews.

[Kentonio]

59. America is not a center country, its a right leaning country.

To Europeans, even the Democratic party is moderate conservative. Bernie seems like nothing more than a left leaning moderate to most Euros.

[cali]

25. Opinion isn't synonymous with fact.

[uponit7771]

7. and he's an idiot to trash Clinton now...

[Txbluedog]

10. OP you forgot one thing

Neither Clinton or Kennedy tried to trash the party in their losing quests for the nomination. That makes a big difference. Win or lose in Nov, the party will blame Bernie and he will be marginalized. He has already filed for reelection as an independent, that in itself tells you how much of a voice he expects to have in the Democratic Party in the future

[Tom Rinaldo]

17. More of us should study what happenbed to the Whig Party

No political party has a permanent lease on one of two positions in a two party system democracy. The Whig Party failed to rise to the times when needed so the Republican Party rose instead. IMO Sanders has not tried to trash the Democratic Party as a whole as a vehicle for our political aspirations. Unlike today's Republican Party he believes that it can still represent the interests of average Americas. He has locked horns with some members of the Party over its operation and future, and in so doing he has had the support of many long standing Party members - though clearly not all.

[MADem]

23. I think the GOP should break out the books on that score.

Just because they're down to one doesn't mean that there are many in their crew who actually love him.

They may go back to Whigville.

[Tom Rinaldo]

24. Yes, they are being tested by the times also

Potentially more so than the Democrats, but I personally have less interest in their fate.

[MADem]

27. Compared to those bums, we look solid as a rock.

In less than a month, all this infighting will be over. It will be but a bad memory.

Thing is, though, those grudges can last for years, and the people bobbing around on the surface, unaware of the dangers of the deep, can have no clue that JAWS is out there, circling the boat. Jimmy Carter, a "Christian, forgiving man," never really did forgive--or at least he did not forget--how Ted Kennedy did him wrong by primarying his ass and disrupting--quite pointlessly, too--party unity. He also harbors (deservedly) no love for George Will.

[Txbluedog]

28. So let it be

Let Sanders and his elk launch a third "progressive" party, maybe we get a viable third party out of all of this

[bemildred]

11. I agree with Tom.

Bernie is a political 800 lb gorilla right now, it would be foolish, for her, for us, to throw that away. I think Hillary gets that now, but like Bernie, she better control her troops.

[CherokeeDem]

13. Let's just remember...

Bernie is NOT a Democrat, so I doubt he cares what he does to this party. And his behavior is, in my opinion, undermining the good of the nation. Donald Trump will be a disaster if he is elected and don't tell me Sanders can beat him. Sanders will come across as a 'get off my lawn' man against Trump's verbiage.

I will grant you he has energized the youth when they seemed to be comatose but his rhetoric is just that... no substance... only platitudes. He serves no real purpose and despite what his supporters think, he is not the conduit for change. He doesn't possess the finesse to make the changes we all would like to see happen. Can Hillary? Not certain, but if she chooses to, she is in a far better position to succeed.

[Bluenorthwest]

29. Ah verbiage which sees Trump as favorable to Bernie. Trump coms off like an insane fascist

while Bernie is winning many States in the Democratic Primary. Just won my State by a large margin, closed primary so you might want to consider that smearing all those Democrats while speaking highly of Trump is a dubious choice to make.

[elleng]

14. Thanks as ever, Tom.

[LAS14]

15. Hillary supporter agrees with you.

[Tom Rinaldo]

22. Thank you

I tried to write it in a way that spoke to a real concern without making it about Hillary, pro or con. She's a damn smart woman and I know that she will attempt to include Sanders supporters, without belittling what they or Sanders believes in, under her umbrella if she is the nominee.

[LAS14]

32. It's a hard job, but keep trying.

We need to model civil discourse. I once did an analysis of one of my GDP posts. In it I included two one sentence pretty clear statements. I got 13 responses. 9 didn't acknowledge one of my statements. Two didn't acknowledge the other. They just knee jerked their way to what they wanted to say.

[Nye Bevan]

18. When he does things like making noises about a "messy" convention,

that's a big cause of people acting negatively towards him. A little less talk like that and a little more talking about unifying against Trump would dispose many people towards him much more favorably.

[Tom Rinaldo]

21. It obviously remains to be seen how the convention unfolds

I expect Sanders to call for unity behind whoever Democrats nominate, and to fight hard to defeat Trump. Both will be needed. But using classical definitions the Sanders campaign has been an insurgent campaign, seeking to change the status quo. And for the sake of our discussion I do not need to ague that Clinton is unsympathetic to seeing changes in the status quo, simply that Sanders has made doing so central to his campaign. It is very common for those who control any institution to use the machinery of that institution to attempt to smoothly control the agenda, literally and figuratively. What Sanders said is that democracy is messy, it involves open debate and can involve challenges to established leadership. He's right. In past years many times the Democratic Convention has been simply staged political theater. This year there are issue which both Bernie and I believe it will be healthy for Democrat to openly discuss and even debate. That means going off script sometimes. In that sense it could be "messy" and in that sense that's OK with me.

[Betty Karlson]

19. K&R for exposure. And for truth. eom

[mackdaddy]

20. Clinton "supporters" have been some of the worst "winners" I have ever seen.

Yes I love Bernie and I am at most a lukewarm supporter of Clinton, but I have never trashed her. Ever.

But I have seen some of the worst behavior and vitriol thrown at Bernie and his supporters. I have seen some of this in the past against the other party, but never this level inside the party.

And yes I have seen some of the same going the other direction too.

You do realize that you will need every vote in November to actually win the presidency. What the hell is the point of winning the party candidacy if you alienate half the voters you need in the final election?

I have voted a straight Democratic ticket for 40 years. This is the first time I have every even considered "aw fuck it" in the general. I do not think I am the only one. Does that sound like a winning strategy?

[closeupready]

33. She's not very smart, and her campaigns always reflect the stupidity

which is a hallmark of those of whom it is said, 'snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.'

Her loss to Trump will be 100% on her, and she will blame liberal Democrats 100%.

[LoverOfLiberty]

36. I doubt that most Democrats on this site truly dislike Bernie

Primaries are an ugly time where people get behind a candidate and slug it out.

Come July we'll be one big happy family again. Well, most of us anyway.

[randome]

37. Yeah, the worst of the vitriol is between the supporters, not the candidates.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Fumesucker]

57. The polls come out about 80% Bernie on this site

No, it won't be one big happy family here and it hasn't been since Jan 20, 2009. Once this site lost Dubya as a center of resistance and anger all the ideological fissures became glaringly evident.

To an extent which surprises me I'm still at odds with the same people I have been for going on eight years now.

Some feel this is a site to discuss politics from a left leaning point of view, others perceive it as an online pep rally for Democrats, the two camps will never really get along under a Democratic administration.

[Demsrule86]

38. I disagree

I despise Bernie Sanders...he is no one's ally...you could never trust the guy. People like him accomplish nothing...and often ruin things.

[Aerows]

39. Oh my,

that was a heaping helping of kindness and love in that particular post.

[Andy823]

40. You make some good points

However the real problem we have here are the trolls who are playing both sides. Their goal is to keep on trashing and bashing in order to try and divide posters and get as many as they can to NOT vote in November.

Another problem is that many old time trash and bashers are also doing their best to cause problems here on DU and they will not stop the bashing of Clinton which in turn ticks off her supporters. So it really goes both ways and both sides need to start calling out the trouble makers so we can unite and make sure Trump never gets into the WH.

[bemildred]

41. We are awash in trolls. nt

[Tom Rinaldo]

44. I don't disagree with anything you said.

I expect both candidates to call strongly for unity against Trump after the Convention at the very latest. And there is no better use of a right wing troll's time than to sow hatred among the opposition.

Hillary and Bernie have overlapping but not identical goals right now. For Hillary it boils down to securing the nomination and preparing for the Fall election - I am sure she is no longer worried about winning the nomination as long as she stays out of legal hot water (I expect that she will succeed at that). Bernie still wants the nomination, and he needs to remain on the field so that he remains perceived as next in line for it if somehow Hillary stumbles. If he exited the race early there is no way the Democratic establishment would ever give him the nomination even if Hillary got knocked out of the race somehow. Toward that end he still needs to show that his following remains strong.

But for Bernie this isn't only about becoming the nominee. I'm pretty sure he doesn't expect to be next in line next time there isn't a Democrat incumbent running for the White House, he can't hope for what happened for Hillary to happen for him 4 or 8 years later - not at his age. So it is all about the impact he can have on the Democratic Party, and it's eventual nominee, now. He will never again have a national stage like the one that he has now, and how big a presence he will be in the future depends on how powerful a showing he amasses now. When Bernie stakes out clear differences in values and positions from Hillary now, it is to sear this debate over priorities into the American political psyche so that it doesn't become as forgotten as a John Edwards presidential run. And it is to fire up youth over issues Bernie thinks are critical so that they will continue to organize and hoist the banner for them after the November election regardless of what happens during it.

Having said all of that, once the last primary votes are cast the tone of this contest should start to change more dramatically than it has so far. Both candidates should work for that. I will also.

[oldandhappy]

42. This cycle in politics has made me a progressive.

Kind of a surprise to me. I see a lot of manipulation and control and heavy handed actions at many levels. The president cannot control all of that. Even if clinton tries to bring people together, I question the reality. The fissures seem really deep this time. I am willing to be wrong. It will take a lot to bring me to heel.

[BootinUp]

43. What do you mean trashing of Bernie? I see lots of trashing

not a lot of trashing of Bernie.

I actually agree with Senator Barbara Mikulski

“You know he’s been an Independent, we welcomed him, but now that he’s finally gotten around to becoming a member of the Democratic Party, you sign up for the rules and we want Bernie to go by the rules that he’s signed up for,” Sen. Barbara Mikulski (D-MD) told The Daily Beast. “That is up to him, to get his supporters to calm down. Bernie has to be in charge of what he, himself has unleashed.”

http://www.warrenjasonstreet.com/aal/2016/5/barbara-mikulski-issues-a-warning-to-bernie-sanders

[Tom Rinaldo]

46. I'm a member of the Democatic Party

I've been a registered Democrat for decades, volunteered for a number of campaigns, serve as the Chairperson of our Town's Democratic Party, and I don't like the Super Delegate System that our Party uses, I think it needs to be changed. Does that mean I don't belong in the Party?

And in so far as this: "Bernie has to be in charge of what he, himself has unleashed.” I think that says a whole lot about much of the leadership of our current Democratic Party. Bernie hasn't unleashed the anger and disillusionment and frustration that so many feel about the political status quo in America. Political parties that have increasingly allowed an oligarchy to hollow out the middle class and control the political agenda of America did that all on their own. Bernie' campaign has given us an opportunity to organize against it within the confines of our current political system in the appropriate context, during a primary campaign, not running against the Democratic Party as an Independent in the fall helping a Republican get elected. Mikulski almost sounds like she would have preferred Sanders to have taken that route instead.

Other nations have massive riots in the streets with people killed during intense political turmoil. Here an upset individual picked up and put down a chair.I will listen to Mikulski' concerns again after the Democratic Convention, assuming she still has any.

[BootinUp]

47. What's interesting to me, is that instead of debating his issues we have a thread

about not blaming him for making shit up about the race and the rules and his playing the victim.

[Tom Rinaldo]

48. We live in a linear universe. I assumed you already knew that

All possible discussions do not all take place simultaneously in one single place. You can check my DU Journal for other commentary, much of it "debating his issues". And I do believe you missed my point above. I pointed to a problem the Democratic Party may well have in the future if it is too dismissive of the beliefs of younger generations of Americans who have strongly flocked to Bernie Sanders during this campaign.

P.S. And fairly or not, if too many voices backing the current Democratic Party leadership focus on trashing Sanders now. rather than addressing the reasons why entire generations of Americans now are overwhelmingly supporting him, many of his millions of supporters will in fact feel dismissed by the Democratic Party. Not good, I do not recommend it.

[BootinUp]

49. Problem? The D party will win the youth vote by a mile and more

The problem is when they are fed misinformation to get them see everything as a conspiracy if you ask me.

[Recursion]

50. IDK. I was Team Tsongas in '92 and we were pretty rankled still

Also IIRC Brown wasn't even allowed to speak... because he carried his campaign through to the convention. Something to ponder.

[puffy socks]

52. ...

" they feel personally threatened by the gathering forces of the political revolution that Bernie Sanders has begun to harness. "


oh the drama!


I do believe you've over estimated the power behind the "revolution"

[Tom Rinaldo]

55. Perhaps, but I haven't overestimated how threatened they feel by it. n/t

[puffy socks]

58. Yeah

you have.

[Trust Buster]

53. Sanders and his minions attack Hillary, the DNC and her supporters every day.

We have every right to return the favor. A little advice, don't provoke just to turn around and play the victim. That's SO Tea Party.

[Dem2]

54. I like Bernie

If he was winning the primary I'd be singing his praises since I've liked his message from the beginning.

[bemildred]

56. And the other thing is when you attack him, he gets stronger.

"I welcome their hatred." -- FDR

And think about what that means.

[leeroysphitz]

60. no shortage of idiots around here... n/t