2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumCornel West: "We won't stand for annihilation" in Palestine
Last edited Tue May 24, 2016, 11:39 PM - Edit history (1)
This guy is going to be on the Democratic Party platform committee.
This is the beginning of change. Is this the beginning of change?
It's a symbolic change, not a material change. But it shows we
Thank you Bernie Sanders for helping to open this door.
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Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)And again the world is silent.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Gaza shares exactly NO similarities with the Warsaw Ghetto and, frankly speaking the comparison is disgusting.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)A wall built to keep working people from going to and from legal work. A wall built to keep people from food and water.
That you don't know that makes you undeserving of that Mason's symbol.
I went to school under a Mason's and Journalism scholarship. Who in the HELL do you think originated the masonic symbol?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)
glitterbag
(45 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)
oberliner
(58,724 posts)You are demonstrating zero knowledge of Gaza (and the Warsaw Ghetto).
still_one
(92,122 posts)which exceeded even the Hamas inflated estimate by 6 times.
While anyone's death, especially civilian deaths are awful, the equating Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto is not just an exaggeration, it is an outright lie.
Hundreds of thousands of people were killed or sent to death camps from the Warsaw Ghetto
6chars
(3,967 posts)There is no wall on the Gaza border. The wall on the west bank was built to keep people from going to illegal work, i.e., committing suicide bombings on buses, at restaurants, in synagogues in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Perhaps you are more ignorant about the region than you realize.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Something is very wrong.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Approximately 350,000 of the 400,000 residents of the Warsaw Ghetto died of starvation/disease or were killed in extermination camps.
The motivation behind making such a comparison in light of these facts is worth considering.
cali
(114,904 posts)an attempt to rewrite history.
Average daily caloric intake was 184. Thousands died of starvation. during the blockade of Gaza in 2012, when Israel was accused of putting Gazans on a starvation diet, the average caloric intake of Gazans was over 2000 per day.
Disease was rampant. Typhus killed thousands.
before deportations to the death camps, over 100,000 perished from disease and starvation.
Gaza is a ghetto. It's not like the Warsaw Ghetto.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)Israel is “infected by the seeds of fascism” and has been taken over by “extremists,” warn ex-prime minister and defense ministers
Former Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon say the extreme far-right has taken over Israel
Israel’s ex-prime minister has warned that his country is “infected by the seeds of fascism.”
Ehud Barak, the former Israeli prime minister and defense minister, said in an interview on Israeli TV on Friday night that fascistic, extreme right-wing politics are on the rise in his country, Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported.
“What has happened is a hostile takeover of the Israeli government by dangerous elements,” he cautioned. “And it’s just the beginning.”
Barak’s comments come just weeks after Israeli Maj.-Gen. Yair Golan compared Israel to Nazi Germany in the 1930s, in a Holocaust Remembrance Day speech on May 4.
Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon resigned on Friday, after hard-line right-wing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu announced that he would be offering the defense minister position to Avigdor Lieberman, one of the most extreme figures in Israeli politics.
Lieberman was compared to ISIS in March 2015 after publicly calling for beheading disloyal Palestinian citizens of Israel.
http://www.salon.com/2016/05/21/israel_is_infected_by_the_seeds_of_fascism_and_has_been_taken_over_by_extremists_warn_ex_prime_minister_and_defense_ministers/
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Maybe you should read the article you posted a little more carefully.
Regardless, the comparison to the Warsaw Ghetto that the poster above made is obscene.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)And I've been in complete agreement with him about the neoconservatives who are currently in power, for a long time.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)You seemed to claim above that he had.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)“What has happened is a hostile takeover of the Israeli government by dangerous elements,” he cautioned. “And it’s just the beginning.”
http://www.salon.com/2016/05/21/israel_is_infected_by_the_seeds_of_fascism_and_has_been_taken_over_by_extremists_warn_ex_prime_minister_and_defense_ministers/
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Anyone who says killing kids is OK is an awful person.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)Israel is “infected by the seeds of fascism” and has been taken over by “extremists,” warn ex-prime minister and defense ministers
Former Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon say the extreme far-right has taken over Israel
Israel’s ex-prime minister has warned that his country is “infected by the seeds of fascism.”
Ehud Barak, the former Israeli prime minister and defense minister, said in an interview on Israeli TV on Friday night that fascistic, extreme right-wing politics are on the rise in his country, Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported.
“What has happened is a hostile takeover of the Israeli government by dangerous elements,” he cautioned. “And it’s just the beginning.”
Barak’s comments come just weeks after Israeli Maj.-Gen. Yair Golan compared Israel to Nazi Germany in the 1930s, in a Holocaust Remembrance Day speech on May 4.
Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon resigned on Friday, after hard-line right-wing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu announced that he would be offering the defense minister position to Avigdor Lieberman, one of the most extreme figures in Israeli politics.
Lieberman was compared to ISIS in March 2015 after publicly calling for beheading disloyal Palestinian citizens of Israel.
http://www.salon.com/2016/05/21/israel_is_infected_by_the_seeds_of_fascism_and_has_been_taken_over_by_extremists_warn_ex_prime_minister_and_defense_ministers/
ericson00
(2,707 posts)will do all we can to get this clown off the committee.
Response to ericson00 (Reply #2)
TM99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)in our party, and even more in the American public's view, a public that doesn't wanna ditch an ally against jihadist terror.
I'll gladly watch and laugh at anyone who would avoid voting for Hillary because she's mainstream on Israel/Palestinians. May such people stay out of our electorate forever.
Response to ericson00 (Reply #4)
TM99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)He said that Bernie would start embracing BDS'ers before he was gone. June 7th can't come soon enough.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)You're right- June 7 can't get here fast enough.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)At least I hope not.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)some of whom were Bernie supporters - not any more. He's getting into bed with those who would destroy the Democratic party with their apologist bullshit.
Ha... You hate my son.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)It isn't worth it for a DU battle
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)I've supported Bernie, but some of the pro-palestinian stuff he's throwing at the wall now isn't what I signed on for.
Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #44)
TM99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Doesn't surprise me that Hillary supporters have their backs
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)In Gaza or the West Bank agree?
Because those in Israel are doing ok
Most here do not love Israel's current government. But just cannot bring ourselves to support groups that would like nothing more than to continue the holocaust.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Particularly the Hamas government in Gaza.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)No surprise they have been radicalized
ericson00
(2,707 posts)and Hamas still carried out evil acts long before the blockade.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)The Israeli government used the uprising as an excuse to wall the Palestinians into the apartheid prison we see today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada#End_of_the_Intifada
ericson00
(2,707 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)And there had been only 1 suicide bombing in the previous two years. It was a time of relative peace between Israel and Palestinians. Sharon wasn't having it.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)a Jew walk on the Temple Mount. Now they merely get arrested for DARING to pray on the Mount - but DUers will ignore that FACT in their unending hatred of Israel. Defend electing terrorist and ignoring that Israel UNILATERLLY removed all the settlements in Gaza - getting nothing in return other than rockets and violence. THIS is just one of the reasons the far left will destroy the Democratic party.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)Jews and Christians, nor Hindus (see "progressive" views on Modi, etc.) need apply.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)needed proof of being 100% right, all he needs to do is visit this site.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)(pathetic) excuse for not taking the state offered to them in 1947? Or all the violence when Israel didn't control East Jerusalem until 1967). Or any of the other DECADES of violence they've engaged in? Could it possibly have something to do with listening to their asshole leaders who continually tell them to suffer a little while longer while they figure out how to rid themselves of the Jewish state?
ericson00
(2,707 posts)is a "fascist state." You wouldn't know fascism if he hit you in the face, and talked "political revolutions."
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)It's genocide by abuse
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)You should feel bad about that post.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)It's one thing to not like Netanyahu, its another to denigrate the entire country.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)ericson00
(2,707 posts)America isn't becoming a "fascist nation" even tho many have called Trump a fascist and Kasich ran a Niemoller quote against Trump.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)while not having jack booted thugs knocking down your door and tossing you in prison without a trial shows what complete bullshit any fascist label is when it comes to the US.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)By facism, as first formulated in early C20 Italy, I refer to the combination of 1). The interpenetratuon of powerful corporations and oligarchs with the State, and 2). Militarism. i agree that the Police State and arbitrary rule of law, etc. are yet no more than embryonic...
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)are peace loving lefties? Love their gays, let their women do whatever they please? They're so happy you have THEIR backs.
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)ericson00
(2,707 posts)Last edited Wed May 25, 2016, 12:32 AM - Edit history (1)
and I cannot wait to see what Bernistas will say if/when West and/or Zogby get booted.
"AIPAC bought this election"
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)which is a shame.
I'm still not voting for Clinton, but Zogby and West were...poor choices by Bernie.
msongs
(67,394 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)When?
BTW, I have.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)I wonder what real Palestinians think about his.
Ins'allah.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)By the way this video is from 2014 in case anybody thought it was new.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Do you understand how much that means?
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)I'm just wondering why any of it matters. The party platform doesn't count for too much.
But I like that Bernie's choices are violating some taboos. Ideas matter somewhat.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)and doing so steadily. The intention mischaracterization is pure anti-Semitism.
Cornel West is a BDS supporting anti-Semite with no place either on the DNC Platform committee, the party, or American political life. People like him should just avoid voting.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)You trivialize antisemitism by using the word to describe political opposition to the policies of the Israeli government.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)and you only lie about something, deliberately mischaracterize, when you hate and seek to do it harm.
Someone who accuses someone falsely of a crime and gets him arrested or locked up is committing a hateful evil act, as is comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, Milosovic, etc.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)is not being full of shit. Using words like genocide when populations are consistently going UP, calling Israel nazi Germany when there is no systematic murdering and burning of an entire people is what's full of shit. And this is why you'll continue to lose on this issue.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I should have been more clear - my apologies. Those idiotic charges get thrown around here on a regular basis when Israel is the topoic.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)To the well meaning people who are doing that I would ask everyone to check your facts and your talking points for accuracy before posting please.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)to call them "well meaning".
elleng
(130,861 posts)ericson00
(2,707 posts)care to post the article (or at least PM me the whole thing) please? thanks!
elleng
(130,861 posts)'At the beginning of her speech to 18,000 attendees at the American Israel Public Affairs Committee’s annual policy conference in March, Hillary Clinton offered a short but telling anecdote.
“Since my first visit to Israel 35 years ago, I have returned many times and made many friends. I have worked with and learned from some of Israel’s great leaders – although I don’t think Yitzhak Rabin ever forgave me for banishing him to the White House balcony when he wanted to smoke.”
Aside from earning a smattering of laughter, Clinton skillfully made a number of points: She presented a tidy portrait of herself as a longtime champion of Israel, highlighted her intimacy with a beloved, peace-seeking prime minister, and reminded the audience that she’s already at home in the White House.
Of all of the presidential candidates, from both parties, who
cluttered this primary season until recently, Clinton had the longest public record of engagement with Israel, and has spent decades diligently defending the Jewish state. Jewish voters have rewarded her for her loyalty: In the New York primary in April, she appeared to have easily won the Jewish vote 2-to-1, besting her Jewish rival, Bernie Sanders.
Sanders, meanwhile, is the most successful Jewish presidential candidate in United States history and has the closest personal relationship to Israel, having lived on a kibbutz there for a brief stint in the 1960s. He is also the candidate offering the most critical views on the U.S.-Israel relationship of any mainstream political candidate in recent memory. . .
Clinton’s campaign website makes much of her three-decade public commitment to Israel, dedicating an entire page to her personal, diplomatic and legislative history with the country under the headline: “Hillary Clinton and Israel: A 30-Year Record of Friendship, Leadership and Strength.”
Samples of the policy priorities that follow include guaranteeing “Israel’s qualitative military edge to ensure the IDF is equipped to deter and defeat aggression from the full spectrum of threats,” “stand up against the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement,” and “cut off efforts to unilaterally recognize Palestinian statehood outside of the context of negotiations with Israel.”
But Clinton has also found herself walking a tightrope as the former secretary of state under U.S. President Barack Obama, who has presided over a period of deteriorating U.S.-Israel diplomatic relations, owing in part to bad personal blood between Obama and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and an Iran nuclear deal hugely unpopular with pro-Israel advocates.
Clinton helped lay the groundwork for that deal and now finds herself needing to both defend it and reassure its critics.
“We must maintain the legal and diplomatic architecture to turn all the sanctions back on if needed,” she said in her AIPAC speech. “If I’m elected the leaders of Iran will have no doubt that if we see any indication that they are violating their commitment not to seek, develop or acquire nuclear weapons, the United States will act to stop it, and that we will do so with force if necessary.”
Heading into the 2008 presidential primaries, Clinton was favored by Jewish voters but ultimately lost to Obama. As his secretary of state, she was involved in a number of miscalculations that helped sour his relationship with the Israeli government, including supporting his call for a settlement freeze in 2009, which she later came to regret.
“In retrospect, our early, hard line on settlements didn’t work,” Clinton wrote in “Hard Choices,” her 2014 memoir.
But she continued to criticize the policy, telling CNN that settlements were “my biggest complaint with the Israeli government.” She went on: “The continuing settlements which have been denounced by successive American administrations on both sides of the aisle are clearly a terrible signal to send if at the same time you claim you’re looking for a two-state solution.”
Clinton made this point at the height of the Gaza War in the summer of 2014, but was firm in placing the blame for that conflict with Hamas. “I have said publicly – and I believe it – that Hamas provoked Israel in order to actually cause what we are now seeing,” she said in the CNN interview. . .
Two weeks earlier, however, Sanders correctly cited the largely accepted United Nations figure of 1,500 civilian deaths during the Gaza War in a Middle East policy speech. The speech was noteworthy in part because of where it did not take place: at AIPAC, where Sanders had been invited, but declined to attend, offering instead to speak via video, which the conference declined.
Instead, he outlined his priorities at a high school in Salt Lake City, Utah, explicitly expressing his concerns for the Palestinian people.
“So when we talk about Israel and Palestinian areas, it is important to understand that today there is a whole lot of suffering among Palestinians and that cannot be ignored,” he said. “You can’t have good policy that results in peace if you ignore one side.”...
The balancing act reflects a long and complicated relationship with Netanyahu: She chewed him out in a 2010 phone call over a settlement embarrassment involving Vice President Joe Biden, and said, in the 2014 CNN interview, “I’ve known Bibi a long time and I have a very good relationship with him, in part because we can yell at each other, and we do. And I was often the designated yeller.”
Clinton now seems to be counting on the fact that her decades-old history with Israel and willingness to engage with that country’s leader will thaw the perceived cold war of the Obama years, soothe over the partisan cracks in the U.S.-Israel relationship and win over the conservative Jewish leaders who are simply too uncomfortable with Donald Trump to get behind him.
But while Sanders has succeeded in nudging Clinton to the left on certain economic policies over the course of the primary campaign, on Israel, she hasn’t budged.'
still_one
(92,122 posts)office, came very close to an agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, and if bush would have continued that process, a lot of the issues could have been resolved. Of course we all know what happened, 9/11, Iraq invaded due to lies from the bush administration, complete destabilization of the middle east, and balance of power between Iraq and Iran completely put off balance.
That the Obama administration was able to actually avert another disaster, which would have been Iran, opens the door to opportunities that previously were not there, and may offer another unique situation where the next administration has the potential to continue to reduce the tension that is the middle east.
elleng
(130,861 posts)saying she’d invite Netanyahu to the White House. She stated that “[a]s president, I will make a firm commitment to ensure Israel maintains its qualitative military edge. . . The United States should provide Israel with the most sophisticated defense technology so it can deter and stop any threats. That includes bolstering Israeli missile defenses with new systems like the Arrow Three and David’s Sling. And we should work together to develop better tunnel detection, technology to prevent armed smuggling, kidnapping and terrorist attacks.”'
http://www.salon.com/2016/03/26/hillary_leads_to_more_war_her_latest_speech_on_israel_is_just_the_newest_horrific_example/
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)Dear Haim:
I am writing to express my alarm over the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanction
movement, or a global effort to isolate the State of Israel by ending commercial
and academic exchanges.
I know you agree that we need to make countering BDS a priority. I am seeking
your advice on how we can work together...
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2158218-hillary-clintons-letter-to-haim-saban-against-bds.html
Heeding Hillary Clinton Plea, United Methodist Church Rejects BDS Push
http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/340829/heeding-hillary-clinton-plea-united-methodist-church-rejects-bds-push/
still_one
(92,122 posts)and are favorable toward Israel. They also support a two-state solution, and a secure Israel.
That does not mean they are happy with Netanyahu's leadership
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)I'm just curious because that's what this issue reminds me of.
still_one
(92,122 posts)through unilateral steps by the de Klerk government. The negotiations took place between the National Party, the African National Congress, and a wide variety of other political organisations.
still_one
(92,122 posts)likes to portray the problems between President Obama and Netanyahu, and there are problems, but what the media fails to point out is that Bill Clinton had the same issues with Netanyahu that President Obama has. He was extremely frustrated by Netanyahu's stubbornness, as will be whoever the Democratic nominee is, until a more moderate Prime Minister replaces him. Even in the article referenced Hillary indicates she has issues with Netanyahu.
As an aside, I don't go to Haaretz anymore. It has become so loaded with popups, and ads it just isn't worth the annoyance to me, so I do appreciate you posting the partial piece from there.
Thanks
