The prospect of Bernie debating trump makes me queasy

[cali]

It could go well for Bernie but it could be a debacle. Trump is predictable. I can just see him using his time to do nothing but smear Hillary. And does anyone think the Fox moderators would or could do anything to stop him? Bernie could easily end up looking like a dupe- and damaging himself; squandering his chance to wield real power and build on an incipient progressive movement. He doesn't just need his voters, he needs a degree of good will from the democratic caucus in the Senate.

And here is the reality: Even if such a debate gave him a win in California, Hillary will still win enough delegates to become the presumptive nominee on that date. You can go on and on about how superdelegates don't vote until the convention, but the inconvenient truth is that those superdelegates don't want Bernie. That you or I may think that's a mistake is irrelevant.

If you're hoping for the political equivalent of a giant asteroid smashing into the Clinton campaign, well, that's not much more likely to happen before the convention than earth being hit by a giant asteroid in that same period of time.

The upside to Bernie debating trump is far smaller than the potential fallout.

And yeah, yeah. I'm a traitor to the cause and all that jazz.

[COLGATE4]

1. There is no upside to Bernie debating Trump

for all the reasons you've listed. A debate like that would be an unmitigated disaster for the Democratic Party.

[mikeysnot]

2. Then don't watch the debate would be my advise.

[cali]

3. What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

[Jitter65]

7. Sometimes you just can't get an honest discussion going around here. Just state your opinion and

move on. It really is frustrating.

[cali]

14. True.

[mikeysnot]

73. sigh....

[cali]

74. Nah, people know me here fucking know I like to fucking swear

[mikeysnot]

75. whippy fucking doooo!

[Fairgo]

4. Hell, I think they ought to put up a cardboard cut-out of HRC

and give it time for rebuttal.

[cali]

5. Another fatuous non-response

[Fairgo]

8. I respond in kind.

Your concern is misplaced...however sincere. The purpose of debate is public forum. Bernie is free to take advantage of the opportunity. HRC agreed to this debate. If she decides not to show up, her loss. If her absence speaks volumes about her, so much the better. We can use as much insight into policy and character as we can get. If Bernie cannot control himself, as you seem to fear...good to know that too. So, there is no harm, just good, cleansing truth. Your concern is pointless and impotent; as fatuous as my remark. But my jape was not directed at you, so all in all a little less childish in its connotation.

[cali]

12. Thanks for actually responding.

I said nothing about Bernie not controlling himself. I addressed Bernie being unable to control trump.

You entirely ignored my points about superdelegates and the harm he would do to his own credibility and the diminishing of the power and influence he's accrued.

Get it through your skull, engage those little grey cells: Bernie is not going to be the nominee. It's pure fantasy to believe that the superdelegates are going to abandon Hillary.

And frankly, I don't think you are capable of presenting a coherent, articulate argument that addresses those points and is grounded in reality.

[Fairgo]

20. To your points...

Your superdelegate argument is a non-sequitor. The debate stands on its own merits.

You've offered no evidence that his credibility is at risk, outside of your subjective, free floating concern.

Not sure what the difference between power and influence is here, but again, you've made no causal connection between the debate and diminishing power, outside of your subjective fears.

Whether or not Bernie is the nominee is besides the point. You have no idea what I think is possible in this regard.

This is the extent of my argument. I doubt that it will convince you, because you are writing from a subjective space of concern so intense it is making you queasy. I hope you feel better soon.

[cali]

28. No, it's not. He needs superdelegates to win. He has virtually no chance of

getting them. That's in your face obvious. The evidence that both his influence and credibility are at risk is in the non-MSM that has largely been supportive of him. It's apparent in how super delegates in Congress are reacting. Let me put it simply: it would be an obscene bread and circus Fox production and it's more likely to hurt his brand than help it.

[Fairgo]

61. We shall see...

Brand refers to the surface appeal of something for sale. Bernie is not a brand. He is not for sale. He is the spokesman for a movement, because he has lived it's values. RNC, DNC, they can both construct a whorehouse cabaret around him, and the message stays the same. His power is his message, it cannot be diminished by the braying of an ass. The debate provides a public forum for his message. Good on him.

Primaries? You can read tea leaves, count votes, and speculate yourself into a fever, and it matters not. The primary ends when the gavel falls. He will be the candidate or he will not. That is not the point. You are distracted by the bread and circuses. There will always be bread and circuses. The brand requires it. Winners and losers. The idea does not win or lose, it abides.

So yes, there will be a circus, and beneath it, the real battle for ideas. The owners are working hard to keep the circus on script. But they are perplexed by the forces that have disrupted the coronation. They are arrogant. They think they can control chaos and tame social movements. Command the tide. There are more variables at work than you can account for; you do not know how the future plays out.

We shall see...

[bettyellen]

58. Nope- the debate is supposed to help you make a choice and it's pointless for Sanders

To put him self out there when he is not going to be on a ballot against Trump. It's purposefully cresting a situation Trump won't be forced to take seriously.
He can make a joke of the whole thing because in. a sense Sanders already has.
Sanders wants to do a number on Trump - awesome! But he has not earned the nomination or the honor of a one on one debate. The winner of the primary earns it, no one else.

[Merryland]

53. Question

You said"Bernie is not going to be the nominee" but you have a Bernie logo - which side are you on?

[zappaman]

59. Reality's side. n/t

[Uncle Joe]

6. Honestly

I don't believe it will ever take place.

Trump won't do it and Bernie knows this.

I do sincerely understand your concerns, there are some high stakes to it.

Thanks for the thread and peace to you, cali.

[vintx]

9. Can't say it any better.

This campaign season is going to do wonders for alcohol and painkiller sales.

[Uncle Joe]

10. My only regret is that I don't live in Colorado.

[vintx]

36. Same

[Tarc]

11. It wasn't too long ago that Sanders said he's support Hillary and campaign against Trump

if he didn't win the nomination, But actions like this seem to undercut that a bit. Unfortunately, it look like the only ways this won't go though is either the Donald commits to his backtrack, or they run out of time...11 days isn't a lot of time to organize and televise a debate.

[cali]

13. Yeah, I hope it falls through. In addition to the points I made in my op

it seems way too bread and circusy.

[Uncle Joe]

15. I don't believe this incident would ever have transpired if Hillary had kept her word

in regards to the sanctioned May debate before the June 7th primaries.

I believe knowing that the Inspector General Report was coming motivated Hillary to hunker down and avoid national scrutiny having a year long's worth of lies during previous debates and interviews exposed to the American People, that's why Hillary backed out of the May debate.

Hilary is now just trying to run out the clock on the primaries but if she makes it to the general election, HRC will be afforded no such luxury in regards to the server/email issue.

[cali]

17. Oh, it wouldn't have, but her reneging on her committment

doesn't make this a wise move for Bernie or progressives.

[Uncle Joe]

19. Two points.

1. Hillary is afraid of debates.

2. Bernie is not.

If the debate did take place and again I don't believe it will, Bernie would give Trump much needed Hell.

I believe Bernie's inclusive message is infinitely greater than Trump's divisiveness when compared side by side to the light of day.

[cali]

21. I don't think she fears debating. I just think she calculates whether

the benefits outweigh the downside.

And I think it would be a circus

[Uncle Joe]

31. Hillary and Schultz have been calculating the down side of debates since last summer.

[pengu]

16. Even if he can't win, he should NEVER stop pushing his issues

He needs to keep the heat on BOTH Trump and Clinton. They're both awful.

[John Poet]

27. Bernie speaking truth to power.

I'd like a clean glass.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

39. I love this picture.

Captures the essence perfectly.

[NCTraveler]

44. That's funny. Nt

[cwydro]

18. Bernie is being played by Trump.

He's a fool if he goes through with it.

[Renew Deal]

29. I agree

He's being used. And if Trump decides to do the debate, he will be stuck having to either defend Hillary or do nothing about the attacks which become compicity.

[JudyM]

56. I think folks are underestimating Bernie. Remember, he was the one who put out the invitation.

He's no fool. He knows what tRump is about.

[Autumn]

22. I think it could show a lot of young people who dislike Hill and are looking for change

the stupidity that is Trump that they will hopefully remember in the GE. Bernie debating Trump will have no effect on Clinton's campaign IMO. She is what she is.

[NCTraveler]

23. I'm pretty good with it.

The risk is all on Sanders and Trump. Mainly Trump as Sanders has lost the nomination. That is why it won't happen in my opinion.

I'm good with it because all Sanders supporters will be tuned in. Sanders would highlight the monster that Trump is.

[Renew Deal]

24. People had heart attacks when I pointed this out yesterday.

Maybe they'll take it better from you

[cali]

35. Did you include a giant asteroid metaphor?

Seriously, most people here are so hardened into their pov that they can't shift to engaging their brains in a more analytic way.

Could you post a link to your op?

[Blue Meany]

25. I think it's a great thing, because Bernie will be attacking him on substance

and all he has to come back with is insults. What is more he can attack his arrogance and wealth in a way that Hillary cannot without looking like a hypocrite and without exhibiting qualities that some voters would respond to negatively coming from a woman (just as Obama had to avoid the "angry black man" stereotype). I'm sure that Bernie is champing at the bit to respond to some of his lines, like "you have to be rich to be great." Whatever the outcome of the primary, taking Trump down a notch is all for the good.

[tazkcmo]

26. You're no traitor.

Agree or disagree, your support for Sen Sanders shouldn't be questioned. Questioning one's allegiance due to a disagreement reeks of "Why do you hate America?" crap. We've seen the same thing here on DU and not just recently but during this whole process.

You've laid out your reasons why you don't care for the debate:
1. It's on Fox and guess who they will favor? Duh, Trump.

2. Trump will use the time to bash, bash, bash. Few policy discussions.

3. Won't have an affect on the Democratic Nomination process. Sec Clinton will likely win.

4. The Super Delegates will vote in the best interest of the DNC and that precludes Sen Sanders.

5. Small up side (Though I haven't seen one other than press coverage for Sen Sander or highlighting their differences)

I tend to agree although I haven't given it much thought. For me it boils down to, Why? and I haven't had a good answer to that question.

You keep doing what you're doing, cali. You're no traitor.

[cali]

32. Thank you for those kind words.

I really appreciate it.

[tazkcmo]

37. Onward through the fog!

You betcha!

[bullwinkle428]

30. For better or worse, Rachel Maddow was basically making this same argument.

I honestly have no idea how this will all shake out. It was close to a year ago when Bernie pushed the idea of mixing it up between Republican and Democratic candidates in primary debates.

[lagomorph777]

43. A Hillary fan like Rachel wouldn't like this debate because it will demonstrate

just how much better prepared Bernie is to squash trump.

[oberliner]

33. Do you think it will happen?

I get the sense that Trump isn't really serious about this.

[auntpurl]

34. It would be a bad idea.

Trump knows that Hillary will be the nominee. Therefore, the only reason to debate Bernie is to make Hillary (and the Democrats) look bad. Which means he will play the best card he's got - he will attack Hillary throughout the debate. That gives Bernie two choices: either he agrees with Trump and trashes Hillary, which makes the Democrats look terrible. Or Bernie defends Hillary, which makes the whole point of the debate moot because Trump will just jeer about how Bernie has to fight Hillary's battles for her, and also that Bernie is a loser. If you think Trump will debate issues with ANYONE, you're crazy. He won't do it with Hillary either. I'm quite worried about the upcoming Trump/Clinton debates and I hope Hillary's got a debate prep stand-in for Trump who is screaming insults at her 24/7. She MUST keep her cool; if she descends into the mud with him even ONCE, she loses.

[lagomorph777]

42. We have to start turning to the GE, and as Hillary is fading fast,

time for Bernie to carry the baton.

[auntpurl]

46. ??

Hillary is winning. By a lot. The race is over. It's been past time to turn to the GE, but Bernie isn't ready to do that yet so we still have to fight the primaries. Hillary is fighting on two fronts right now and it's damaging her. But she is going to be the nominee.

[lagomorph777]

51. Keep your blinders and earplugs on.

The race is over, and not in the way you think.

[cali]

55. You understand that the only way for Bernie to win would be a mass defection of SDs, right?

Please explain how that happens.

[lagomorph777]

57. Hillary has already laid the groundwork for a mass panic of SDs.

She has no chance of defeating Trump. SDs are selfish politicians (sorry for the redundancy) first and foremost. They will see that a President Trump is not in their self-interest, no matter how much they may have thought an alliance to Hillary would have benefited them.

[cali]

60. That is delusional

And of course she has a chance to beat Trump. There isn't a credible analyst who thinks she doesn't have the advantage against him.

The SDs will stick with Hillary.

Care to wager?

[lagomorph777]

63. We are wagering

the entire future of the planet. We can't afford to lose.

And have a look at the polls - note the overall trendlines:

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-clinton

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-sanders

[redstateblues]

67. Your assumption that she has no chance is just not true

She is slightly ahead right now. Once the primaries are over and Bernie and Obama are out campaigning she will win by a slightly larger margin. You're hatred has blinded you to reality.

[NorthCarolina]

38. I trust Bernie's judgement on this. I think he knows exactly what he needs to do.

This is a perfect opportunity for the Democratic Party to educate all those folks that we know vote GOP out of hate rather than reason, voting consistently against their own best interests.

How many Dems here have ever scratched their head over how to reach such folks and possibly get them to look at their situation from a new perspective? Well, I think Bernie has figured it out, AND he's really the only one that can do it. Hillary is already far too despised by their rank and file for such an endeavor, but they will absolutely tune in when Bernie debates Trump, and as Howard Dean says, "Bernie will wipe the floor with Trump".

I can see absolutely no down sides to this. It's a brilliant move by the Sanders campaign.

[cali]

41. You didn't address the points regarding Fox being the moderator or

the fallout for bernie, particularly the fallout from allies like Reich and Moore and from most of Congress.

[KoKo]

49. What I heard this a.m./MSNBC is that "other networks" are involved.

So, it wouldn't necessarily be the Fox Debate that Bernie and Hillary were supposed to involved in.

They would need a large facility and the huge ratings capture means that it would go to the highest bidder.

I'm all for it!

[lagomorph777]

40. Puh-leeeze. Bernie will reduce Trump to orange marmalade

Trump has never debated an intelligent person live on TV. He has no idea what it about to happen to him. The only reason for queasiness is maybe you don't like orange marmalade.

[cali]

45. This is a Fox debate. And trump regularly gets away with shit I've never seen

another political figure come close to getting away with.

[gollygee]

48. +1000

I don't understand it at all. Any other year - or any other person with his issues - he gets no votes and gets laughed out of the primary.

[cali]

52. Agreed. It's a weird though not inexplicable year.

I could go on and on about it.

[lagomorph777]

50. Don't let a general negative mood affect your ability to see reality.

If you're a Bernie supporter, you know the things that have brought him from relative obscurity to the brink of defeating two wealthy and powerful establishment candidates. The OIG has most likely just handed Bernie the nomination (despite the silly facade of imperious presumptuousness, you know many Hill supporters know it too).

Bernie is consistent, trustworthy, and an incredibly powerful speaker and debater. Trump is a man-baby out of his depth.

[cali]

64. My mood, whatever it is doesn't impact my ability to see the obvious.

And as I am actually a goddamn Vermonter who knows Bernie and has voted for him for 25 years, and known of him since the 70s, I think I know him, strengths and weaknesses, better than you.

You are living in a fantasy.

[lagomorph777]

66. Never underestimate the power of selfishness.

Gotta keep hope alive, because the alternative isn't a move to Canada; it's a move to Mars. If Trump wins, Earth is toast (literally).

[redstateblues]

68. Funny-you saying someone else is not able to see reality

The OIG report had no there there-no laws broken-rules broken? Yes-nothing actionable. Nobody but a few BSS and Republicans care. The OIG has handed Bernie the nomination is a ridiculous statement. Bernie will not be the nominee

[MineralMan]

47. I think that debate will not occur, in the end.

I certainly hope it doesn't, anyhow. It would make a mockery of our primary election system, in my opinion.

[Nyan]

54. It may be good for him, may be not-so-good for him, or it may not happen at all.

It's perfectly reasonable to be concerned as a Bernie supporter.

But there's one reason why I think it can't be that bad for Bernie, which is that many voters are not political junkies like us.
They tune in when there's a major event like, say, a much-touted debate such as this one. And what they focus on is not just policies, because again, they're not political junkies. They look at the person, and see who's more relatable and likable. They look to see who's more truthful, authentic, and down-to-earth.

Just the fact that people who otherwise would not have had the chance to see and hear Bernie long enough get to do that will be a good thing for Bernie.
And he'll remind people of the person who didn't have a courage to be there, and that's his opponent.

Or you know, it may not happen at all. I hope it does.

[bettyellen]

62. Sadly I think it will confuse voters- some will understandably I think their choice is between Trump

And Sanders. And that would only be true of Independents in Cali. Anyone already registered won't have this choice.
I don't think Sanders has earned the right to debate Trump. He has lost the primary and it's just weird and embarrassing.

[Trust Buster]

65. It would be a total breach of protocol for the trailing candidate to debate the presumptive

nominee of the Republican Party before the convention. Especially if it's a guy who has been criticizing his opponent, the Party and the media for being too presumptuous. He say's, let everyone have the opportunity to vote first. An act like this would surpass any disrespect that Lyin' Ted Cruz has visited upon the Republican Party.

In sum, Sanders would be burning his bridges with the Democratic Party while, as Cali stated, he has little to gain. The cost would definitely be the Super delegates and any chance that Democrats would have any future interest in removing DWS.

[GoneFishin]

69. If Hillary opts not to show then it is her loss. Tough. She can't manipulate everyone all the time.

She's tried her best to keep coverage of Bernie blacked out, so this time she might fail. Good.

[HughLefty1]

80. Yep the DLC has scheduled their debates on purpose to target low audience #'s

As far as I'm concerned HRC may not even be the nominee. She is a poor candidate with a possible indictment sitting over her head. Even with the super delegates she still hasn't reached the magic number. If she is indicted, Bernie, the man who stood in front of the people, has earned the right to be the nominee.

She committed to this CA debate. The voting is not over. I still think the DLC or GOP or Trump will likely stop it but HRC will be the one who looks weak if this debate goes on without her.

[masmdu]

70. "queasy" = HAPPY for me

[Surya Gayatri]

71. Very rational analysis of the risks, Cali. Thank you.

[cali]

72. Thanks.

[KPN]

76. Bernie has nothing to lose. The Party will benefit from Bernie debating Trump.

Bernie always does fine with a large block of potential voters -- larger than the blocks behind Trump or Hillary. He'll make Trump look exactly like what he is -- no need to go into details. And if he's not attacking Hillary during the debate, which he won't, then he'll have no problems with the DNC/Party.

There are cynics, yes, who will say Bernie's making/made a fool of himself, but they've been saying that all along.

Don't underestimate Bernie. You should know that by now.

[Democrats Ascendant]

77. I just really don't want to hear another damned word from Trump....

I think the best way to defeat him is to ignore him entirely. It's obvious he just says any damned thing to get ppl riled up (on both sides); he just throws bombs and sits back and smiles. Total narcissistic asshole. The fucking m$m should stop feeding the beast. I think NEITHER Sanders NOR Clinton should EVER ligegimize him with a debate. No more debate at all this cycle!

[mmonk]

78. I'm never afraid of truth. Read my sig line.

[JCanete]

79. If Trump were a stronger candidate this might be a bad idea. Under the circumstances,

Trump will almost certainly be helped to come to his senses and not have this debate.

Any attempt to smear Clinton would be met with a pivot back to Trump's own words on any subject under the Sun, because he's a blowhard who has said so much stupid shit that he doesn't have the benefit of being an unknown or even complicated quantity on most issues.

Why I think a debate like this matters is because of continued exposure of a message that resonates with people when they hear it, and people will tune in to a Trump debate. I don't think this is going to turn any election in this cycle, but its a big deal for people to hear a politician that actually takes the system to task.

And Bernie isn't new to going into hostile territory and staying calm and on message. Fox will have a choice really. To try to help Bernie undermine Hillary, which he won't do, or to attack his socialism, but doing both will be pretty difficult. Frankly, doing the second would be smarter of any water carriers for the wealthy, but that will bolster Clinton, not hurt her, assuming Bernie finds himself on the defensive and not on the attack. They may go for the first option though, thinking that Bernie is not and never will be the nominee, so why not try to do harm to Clinton for the general ... that's all assuming that they even want Trump, which, I don't believe most of the people in the establishment actually want Trump to win. I'm just speculating wildly but a really bad outing for Trump at this stage might even give cover to the notion of a brokered convention on the GOP side.

[riderinthestorm]

81. I'll be very surprised if it happens. I've said numerous times I bet Trump doesn't debate again

It's his worst forum. He knows his lack of concrete plans is becoming apparent to anyone with 2 brain cells -up against any opponent from here on out would expose that fatal flaw to the general public.

I'm sure it hasn't escaped his attention how far he's gotten with numerous iterations of "make America great again" followed by other vague generalities. He'll continue like this to the GE secure in the knowledge Americans simply aren't tuned in to any political nuances and he just has to keep it simple stupid.

I'd bet the excuse will be there's not enough time between now and June 7 to get it arranged.

FWIW, I share your unease @ it but rest easier confident it won't happen.

[Tom Rinaldo]

82. I agree wih your list of potential negatives, and of the risks

I probably see more possible upside than you expressed, but that would only come into play if Bernie managed to defend the consensus Democratic Party "platform", and not just his own, during the debate. In other words, yes, he would have to deftly defend Hilary also as a clearly preferable President to Donald Trump, and not just with a flyover short reference to her.

Sanders can thread the needle if 1) Trump comes off like an asshole and an idiot 2) Sanders comes off as solid and representing the interests of ordinary Americans, and 3) No fair observer can claim that he helped pull Hillary down in the process but rather actually demonstrated how effective he can also be at backing Hillary against Trump in the Fall election if she is our nominee instead of him

The latter might not please all of Bernie's supporters, and he wouldn't need to do that in order to "win" the literal debate with Trump, but that is what I think Bernie would have to do in order to tactically, for the long haul, emerge from that debate in a stronger overall position than what he had heading into it.