History often turns on small things, there's a famous proverb about for the want of a nail

[Fumesucker]

Ever since Hillary lost the nomination to Obama in 2008 I have thought that the one single thing she could have done differently in her career that would have reversed that loss was to oppose giving George W Bush authority to invade Iraq.

The majority of elected Democrats in Congress voted against the IWR, if Hillary had joined the majority of the Democrats in that time of need in my opinion we would be finishing up the second term of the HRC administration, Clinton II Corporate Boogaloo, which would have been somewhat similar to the Obama administration but with a more muscular foreign policy and a less hostile and oppressive attitude toward big business.

Ironic that a vote made most likely out of political calculation should backfire so badly on someone. Who could possibly have known that Bush and Cheney would screw up so badly in Iraq and create a quagmire?

[merrily]

1. While the majority of Democrats in both houses did indeed vote

against the Iraq War, IIRC almost 100% of Democrats who were in Congress at the time and later ran for President voted to support Dimson, the exceptions being Kucinich and Bernie (who was then an indie, not a Dem).

I think there are many things in the previous sentence to wonder about and learn from.

If Hillary becomes the 2016 nominee, the political lesson will be that a wrong vote to go to war is no biggie.

Who could possibly have known that Bush and Cheney would screw up so badly in Iraq and create a quagmire?

Then Congressman Sanders knew then that invading Iraq would de-stabilize the entire Middle East. Close enough.

[senz]

2. Voting motivations differ. You sound logical.

I'm probably a moralist; ideology's important, but character counts. It wasn't her IWR vote that turned me off. It was the person who waged a dirty, dishonest, racist campaign against Barack Obama. If she had campaigned like an honorable human being, I might have voted for her. As it was, her campaigning behavior made me look at her IWR vote with fresh skepticism.

This time around, she started out okay, got quite dirty, and then did a miraculous turnabout, letting her surrogates do the dirty work while she adopted an "innocent" demeanor, all kindness and love, and golly gee, campaigning doesn't come naturally. For some reason, I'm not convinced. Plus, we know so much more about her now.

But also, she's up against the candidate of a lifetime.

[Fumesucker]

3. It's all part and parcel of the same attitude, whatever it takes

Hey, if I have to vote for a war I think is bullshit then I'm voting for the war, if I have to start an ugly rumor about an opposing candidate, well do unto others before they do unto you.

Whatever It Takes people do tend to get ahead but they tend to accumulate enemies as well.

[senz]

9. But when they have a famous name, political power, money and a well-known hit list

they can keep enemies at bay for quite a while.

[highprincipleswork]

4. Any sane person, not infected with the usual propaganda, would have known it was wrong, false, and

that they would screw it up as well.

[Warren DeMontague]

5. I think- objectively looking at it- a recurrent problem she seems to have had

is sacrificing long-term good judgment for short-term political expedience.

[Demsrule86]

6. Yeah?

Well Kerry voted for Iraq...and Bernie voted for Aghanistan...which is a mess as well...maybe worse.

[senz]

7. "Afghanistan" was was passed 3 days after 9/11 by ALL members of Congress

except one: Barbara Lee, who opposed the wording of the AUMF, not the action it represented.

It simply authorized the use of military force against terrorists.

It cannot be compared to the gratuitous invasion/occupation of Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11.

[Warren DeMontague]

11. There was a logical connection between 9-11 and Afghanistan.

Hell, at the time OBL himself was in Tora Bora. We nearly had him, there.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11, and we all knew it. The votes are totally different.

[anotherproletariat]

8. If she had voted no, she would not have been re-elected to the Senate by New Yorkers.

At the very least, the repubs would have been angered enough to put up a higher profile candidate and been more motivated to beat her.

[senz]

10. So it was worth it?

[Autumn]

12. To Hillary it was. But for the dead, the maimed and the grieving families? Not so much

[senz]

13. That SOS appointment was a terrible, terrible mistake.

I do not believe she should ever, ever, ever have that much power. Ever. IMHO, a one-woman wrecking crew. A disaster.

What kind of "deal" could have been made for Obama to do anything so destructive? Did he have no choice? How hard was his arm twisted? I've always known that he's a practical politician, but I also sense his heart is in the right place. Unlike the individual under discussion here, Obama is a normal human being.

Why do I get images of Bonnie and Clyde and/or The Godfather running through my mind when I think of a certain couple and their "deals?" Those movies aren't even in my top 25.

Sorry. I don't expect you to have the answers, Autumn.

I hope some ethical, responsible people with sufficient power to do something about it are watching the situation closely and carefully. I wish we, the people, could beseech them to consider our interests. When I think of the meaning of the word "democracy," I want to cry.

I hope the millions of young people who are waking up all over the world are ready to do what needs to be done. I wish my generation could have stopped this from happening.