2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumYes there are some Hillary Haters, and not all of them are Republicans
Most of them I'm sure think they have good grounds for hating her, and that like all things is subject to debate. But most of us here on DU who oppose Hillary becoming the Democratic nominee do not hate her, we simply oppose her for that role for any number of reasons, with varying degrees of vehemence.
That's not saying anything that most members of DU don't already know, but here is why I think it bears repeating. While there may be some who would like nothing more than to see Hillary politically destroyed, or even thrown in jail, that represents a small fraction at most of those of us who now express unease over the latest developments in the saga over her emails. Speaking for myself, I always expect those who achieve real power in our society to show a tendency to routinely bend rules to their advantage, whether for convenience or for gain, when they believe that is called for and can be gotten away with. If everyone in government and/or politics with that inclination was rooted out and replaced, we truly will have witnessed a sweeping revolution.
I think Hillary displayed some serious bouts of poor judgement in how she handled her email set up initially, and in how she has managed the fall out from it subsequently. For me that is of more real concern to me than whatever risks to national security her actions may or may not have contributed to. Espionage goes on all the time through hundreds of different means, the lessen is always to learn from our mistakes and move on. Poor judgement is harder to tighten up against than a security system lapse, but even that is not my main concern. If I look close enough I can find instances of poor judgement committed by anyone, starting with but not limited to myself.
My biggest concern now is with the Fall election and stopping Donald Trump. Like the strong majority of Sanders supporters I am not Bernie or Bust. I'm old enough to have been following politics closely during Watergate, and I remember how that scandal had already started perking while McGovern was running against Nixon. McGovern still lost in an overwhelming landslide but subsequently Nixon was forced out of office once the facts caught up to him. Compared to the Whitewater probe and Nixon's reelection campaign, the machinery of investigation is far more engaged now than it was at a similar point in the election cycle in 1972, so more potential "dirt" and allegations are already breaking now in the public sphere prior to the November vote.
And here is where I may surprise some Clinton supporters who still may be reading this rather than having fired off a reply after the third paragraph. I am not hoping for Hillary to get into legal difficulties, and I am not at all convinced that she will. What I am worried most about now is the drip drip dripping of unflattering revelations about all that has happened to date in the national media. And not all of that concerns whether there theoretically may be grounds for Clinton's prosecution, much of it revolves around perceptions of her character and yes, truthfulness, and therefore ultimately trustworthiness.
Here is a point I think is especially relevant to us here on Democratic Underground. We are participating in a skewed universe. Who we each back for President is usually a byproduct of years of intense political thought about what is right and wrong about America and what we need to do about it. We, and others like us gathered elsewhere on the internet, are not, by and large, a representative sampling of anything other than hard core political junkies and grassroots political activists. We argue with each other a lot and sometime it seems that besting an adversary in debate at a place like Democratic Underground will defuse or solidify support for, or opposition to, the candidate we want to win. But I'll say this with a fair degree of certainty. The problem that Hillary is grappling with now over the issue of her emails is not materially effected by any rantings by Bernie supporters here or anywhere else. It is already out there loose in the nation, where it may or may not come to anything more than just reenforcing some of the negative feelings that already preexist about Hilary among a large part of the public.
What the Hillary campaign, and her supporters , and ultimately all non Bernie or Bust Democrats will have to figure out should Clinton win the nomination, is how to counter those feelings effectively. Blasting them as misguided is not good enough. Bernie supporters, no matter how extreme any of us may seem to some, did not cause this problem and attacking us over it will not solve it either. Dismissing all of us who worry about this matter as Hillary Hater's or the like, will not make it better. It is the general public that needs convincing that Hillary is trustworthy, I don't need convincing she is more trustworthy than Trump. If you believe it well past time to pivot to the fall election, that is where to start. It never helps to blame the messenger, whoever that may be.
chknltl
(10,558 posts)This IS how I see it. The reasons I see one candidate as 'really' bad have been gone over plenty enough here at DU. With the future of our planet in mind I will choose neither forms of bad thank you.
shanti
(21,675 posts)and be brave! Vote your conscience and don't be a wimp!
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)and teach the 'leadership' a slagging lesson.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,606 posts)I don't think she will be, regardless of what she might or might not have done, because she's Hillary. Furthermore, it would look terrible for the Democratic party and the Obama administration for her to be indicted; it looks bad enough as it is to even have the FBI investigating her. Even if she is not indicted, and even if she is cleared of everything by the DoJ the damage has already been done. That cloud will hang over her head throughout the rest of the campaign and is likely to cause some damage - the extent of which remains to be seen. If she were to be indicted she'd probably have to withdraw, and no matter who ends up the candidate in that event, the damage will hang over the Democratic Party and the Obama Administration for a long time. If nothing happens and she wins the election, the GOP will insist there was a cover-up. And they will do what they did with Benghazi only more so, and will tie up her administration with endless investigations and hearings.
Regardless of how I feel about Hillary's policy positions I am very disturbed that she allowed the email mess to occur in the first place, whether or not it was criminal in any way. If she is the nominee, which is likely, I will suppress my gag reflex enough to vote for her because Trump is an unmitigated disaster in a million ways, but her decision to use a non-secure private email server in her capacity as SoS is just baffling to me. Maybe- probably - she will be absolved of criminal responsibility for it but she has made a mess of things, for herself and her party.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)If Hillary as our nominee wins and Republicans retain control of at least one chamber of Congress, investigations would never end. Still better than Trump winning though, but then look out for 2020. After 12 years of a Democratic presidency, and 4 years of controversy over it, whoever the Republican ran in 2020 would I believe start out heavily favored. We can worry about that then I suppose.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)that is who is suspected will... why he has yet to endorse Trump. That is crassly political.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)It would be very bad for DEMs, progressives, liberals, the left.
Edited: I mean, if she is guilty of a crime then, yes, she should be indicted, charged, etc, as anyone else should be. But it would be very bad.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)though I will tell you this. For the normal cog in the machine, if there is a recommendation, (not outside the realm of possibility if you have followed this closely) and there is a pardon, which I suspect will be dangled to get her to step down... that will anger the rank and file. IF there is a recommendation, but the DOJ uses judicial discretion and rejects it, watergate here we go.
The only thing that will pretty much prevent this is a clean as a whistle report. And if you have followed this, you will understand how unlikely that is. I think water and oil mixing outside of a stable emulsion are more likely.
As to hate, why the hell would I spend that kind of emotional energy on somebody I know from shinola and will never be in the same room wth. It is not like she will go to the same holes in the wall mere commoners like me eat at.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,606 posts)There's nothing we can do but sit back and watch the thing unfold. I just hope it's not as damaging as I fear it could be. I don't hate Hillary at all but she sure has been a disappointment.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)by the way, some folks within the party, and I am not talking of the partisans here, are starting to get nervous about this. The OIG report finally brought this to their reality, this is not precisely nothing. The last to learn about that will be people here, and the next to last will be the owner, He is married to a HRC strategists who will also be in the next to last list. Though watch for staff leaving. If people start to bail, it will be a sign, People don't bail from a successful campaign.
I am also looking for lawyers and party leaders having that conversation with her. Or for that matter to suspended campaign events.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)would be to admit that long decades of falsely being attacked for everything under the sun by the Republican attack machine left her tough, yes, but also perhaps a little too guarded with an excessive concern for personal secrecy. On refection she could admit that particular history in politics may have contributed to her lapse in judgement, and in admitting it begin to turn that problem around.
If instead she continues to hunker down and deny all but the impossible to avoid level of personal responsibility for what happened, I predict things will keep getting much worse from here.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and it is in the hands of the alphabet soups. That said, that is motive, and will be part of a defense if it reaches that point.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)I was thinking about what she still could possible do to "move her unfavorables" for the election. If she doesn't try an approach like that very soon it will just further confirm her bunker mentality which is the opposite of what she needs to show. Assuming of course that the bottom doesn't fall out for her before she is our nominee.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and that bunker mentality has taken root here as well.
It is part of the anatomy of ANY scandal.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)what she did wrong amounts to a red-tape violation, not keeping paper copies of her emails, instead keeping electronic copies. But the GOP will blow it up and try to use it against her, and yeah she needs to figure out how to defend against it.
And it was definitely a mistake for her to use a private server. She should have kept the political optics in mind, she knew she at least might be running for president, and she should have known the GOP would use this and anything they could find against her.
As far as Bernie people on DU, no they aren't the ones creating the narrative, they are just echoing what Trump and other Republican partisans are saying. It's just a little weird that the GOP narrative is being parroted here by people pretending to be progressive. But from what I hear, they won't be able to do that here much longer.
Pharaoh
(8,209 posts)what does that mean?
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)The same things said about Hitler were said about Trump : "He's not so bad." "The office will temper him." He really didn't mean what he said about the Jews." "We can work with him."
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)What is sad is that Trump has a Jewish grandchild and he won't repudiate the white nationalists who have glommed on to his campaign:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027864806
I believe with all my heart the republic might not be able to stand four years of him. As imperfect as our democracy is I would hate for Trump to be the one who ended our experiment in it.
I am too old to start a life somewhere else.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)a slow descent. I never throw around the word fascist causally, or confuse it with ultra conservative or even reactionary. My belief has been that we can lose our democracy if we don't fight for and protect it, but that democratic values have deep roots here that have to be eroded over time before they vanish. I've seen plenty of potential early signs of that taking hold, but simply the open existence of a small minority of overt fascists wasn't enough for me to fear that we could see true fascism overcome democracy in America within a ten year period. The rise of Trump to me suddenly makes that possible, not overnight, not in four years, but possibly within ten.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)I don't know if it can afford a president who doesn't even know what the rule of law is. Even Nixon knew what the rule of law was. He just chose to ignore it when it suited him.
I have faith in America that they will stop him. I hope it is not misplaced.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)if he can be stopped from becoming President. Otherwise it will be severe and very difficult to reverse.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)-Thinks torture is okay
-Thinks targeting families of terrorists is okay.
-Wants to round up and deport undocumented workers
-Wants religious tests for entering the country
-Wants to loosen libel laws to make it harder to criticize public figures
-Condones violence against protesters
- Fails to repudiate support from white supremacists
- Demonizes entire groups
-Shows a lack of concern for historical alliances
-Casually discusses nuclear proliferation
-Penchant for misogyny
BootinUp
(47,085 posts)I need to point no farther than Bernie Sanders. Who is either loose with the truth or shy about the details when it comes to the state of his campaign and the rosy picture he paints of his economic proposals and his foreign policy ideas. I could go on defending Hillary about the email scandal in the hundreds of threads here every week excoriating her, but since we literally are down to the final week of voting that matters, it does seem a waste of time. People should read the Inspector General's report, in particular the conclusions and recommendations and come to their own conclusion.
Then they should look to her long time in public service and the many good things she has stood for and fought for. There is no such thing as a perfect candidate. One thing about Hillary is we actually know more about her and how she is likely to perform her duties than any candidate running against the establishment. The establishment candidate has visible warts, but so would the other candidate after actually being in a position of higher responsibility.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)most of the time.
Response to JRLeft (Reply #19)
artislife This message was self-deleted by its author.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)Response to JRLeft (Reply #23)
artislife This message was self-deleted by its author.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Though thankfully done have begun self-deportation to sites where people get their jollies by calling her the c-word.
SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)Those are the c words.that come to mind
Scuba
(53,475 posts)And if she overcomes all that to become President, she'll have not coattails, leaving her with a Republican Congress determined to destroy her.
We can do better.
.