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KoKo

(84,711 posts)
Tue May 31, 2016, 09:29 AM May 2016

Claim: Bernie Sanders Dodged the Draft: Fact Check....False!

Bernie Sanders applied for conscientious objector status during the Vietnam War draft, but was too old to be drafted when his number came up.

http://www.snopes.com/bernie-sanders-dodged-draft/

Claim: Bernie Sanders dodged the draft.


-------------

Predictably, the bulk of reporting on Sanders' so-called "draft dodging" was published after the senator announced his plans to run for president. However, an archived Army Times article provided a detail missing from nearly all the coverage:

On paper, Sanders doesn't have a lot in common with veterans.

He never served in the military because he was too old to be drafted when his draft number came up. He protested the Vietnam War as a University of Chicago student in the 1960s and stressed his opposition to the war during his failed Senate bid in 1971.


So while it was true that Sanders sought conscientious objector status during the Vietnam War draft, that cannot in any way be conflated with the specific meaning of the term "draft-dodging." Further, Sanders was eligible for student deferments until at least 1964, when he graduated from the University of Chicago. By the time his number came up, Sanders was too old to be drafted.

http://www.snopes.com/bernie-sanders-dodged-draft/
55 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Claim: Bernie Sanders Dodged the Draft: Fact Check....False! (Original Post) KoKo May 2016 OP
Elvis served tonyt53 May 2016 #1
Elvis was pre-Viet Nam Retrograde May 2016 #9
My only point was that Elvis, even given his celebrity status, served. tonyt53 Jun 2016 #29
Bill Clinton didn't. Vinca Jun 2016 #37
He did the right thing. Tierra_y_Libertad May 2016 #2
Who cares anymore? metroins May 2016 #3
I Beg To Differ... It's The Lady With The Funny Jackets That Is Spiraling Downward... And Fast! CorporatistNation Jun 2016 #49
Hi metroins Jun 2016 #50
Summary just for you.... Matt_R Jun 2016 #54
who claimed he "dodged the draft" beachbum bob May 2016 #4
Snopes does not understand how the term was used DURHAM D May 2016 #5
Actually Vietnam was fought mostly by volunteers, unlike WWI and WWII. braddy May 2016 #7
That is completely untrue Demsrule86 May 2016 #11
LOL, no, it is the fact, as you just posted about 70% of the Vietnam war dead were volunteers, while braddy May 2016 #14
Everyone was drafted during WWII Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #17
I don't know why you are attacking me personally, I served in the Army during the Vietnam war, all braddy Jun 2016 #25
I did not attack you Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #43
You most certainly did attack me, even calling me an indecent human being. The fact is that braddy Jun 2016 #45
That is untrue Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #46
You are purely lying as you make up sthis stuff, I was not doing anything in regards to Sanders, and braddy Jun 2016 #47
No, it is you who is woefully misinformed. Fuddnik Jun 2016 #52
Lol, you cannot just make up fake stuff, but you do. braddy Jun 2016 #53
Oh, no, it wasn't. MineralMan Jun 2016 #20
I remember the pre-lottery days well, and yes, Vietnam was fought overwhelmingly by volunteers. braddy Jun 2016 #28
Only in a technical sense. kiva Jun 2016 #31
The fact remains that Vietnam was overwhelmingly a volunteer war, why you want to pretend that braddy Jun 2016 #35
Why do you choose to insist kiva Jun 2016 #40
I choose to insist that the vast majority of the men who served during the war, including those who braddy Jun 2016 #42
I don't know why "dodged the Draft" is being spread, other than BS supporters can claims it false? Sheepshank May 2016 #8
Yet was willing to send others to fight (Afghanistan Yugoslavia) Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #18
It doesn't matter. As a self-avowed has-been (according to a campaign spokesman)... stone space May 2016 #6
It's comforting to me democrattotheend Jun 2016 #32
Most think Demsrule86 May 2016 #10
Those were the old days. No one is attacking Trump for "Draft Doging" KoKo May 2016 #12
Not yet Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #22
Consider that Kerry went to war Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #23
Nonsense Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #41
I wasn't even aware anyone had accused Bernie of being a draft dodger Txbluedog May 2016 #13
Oh Yes...he was a CT...Didn't Serve and Lied about it...Sadly.. KoKo May 2016 #16
His reputation would be better if he had been a conscientious objector, instead he graduated eastwestdem May 2016 #15
I don't hold Tarc Jun 2016 #19
Being a conscientuos objector was won of the ways people evaded the draft. Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #21
Who made those charges? And being too old to be drafted you can still serve if you want to. nt Jitter65 Jun 2016 #24
Yea! Hope this puts the crap to rest! Duval Jun 2016 #26
No buddy claims he dodged the draft beachbumbob Jun 2016 #27
Anyone who avoided going to Vietnam, by any means, did the right thing. [n/t] Maedhros Jun 2016 #30
I don't 100% agree with that democrattotheend Jun 2016 #33
I come at it from the point-of-view that not being involved in the war is an unmitigated good. Maedhros Jun 2016 #34
I see your point democrattotheend Jun 2016 #36
I won't criticize those who were made to fight there.[n/t] Maedhros Jun 2016 #39
Agreed. Like Iraq, it was a war we should not have been in. Vinca Jun 2016 #38
I applied for and received a CO during the Vietnam War onenote Jun 2016 #44
Seriously? This was an issue? Oh darn! I missed that one. jillan Jun 2016 #48
Hillary didn't serve. She did try to get in the Marines Gomez163 Jun 2016 #51
So he TRIED, but ProgressiveEconomist Jun 2016 #55

Retrograde

(10,016 posts)
9. Elvis was pre-Viet Nam
Tue May 31, 2016, 12:52 PM
May 2016

and got a relatively cushy gig as a driver in Germany. The near-universal draft for young men came long before the US's involvement in Viet Nam started, largely to maintain US presence at military bases in Europe and the Pacific during the Cold War.

Most of the young men I knew looked for ways to get out of the draft, especially in the late 60s/early 70s: I can't blame Sanders for trying whatever he could. CO status was notoriously hard to get - usually you had to prove you belonged to a sect like the Quakers who opposed all wars: just being a Christian, or in Sanders' case, a Jew, who cited "Thou shalt not kill" didn't get you far.

 

tonyt53

(5,737 posts)
29. My only point was that Elvis, even given his celebrity status, served.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 04:03 PM
Jun 2016

I am well aware of how the draft worked. My number was 3. Bernie knew he was buying time with his CO application.

metroins

(2,550 posts)
3. Who cares anymore?
Tue May 31, 2016, 09:34 AM
May 2016

The Sanders campaign is essentially dead.

Anybody looking to hurt it or help it is performing a futile act. Let the people vote next week but it just doesn't matter at this point.

Now we're playing semantics over draft dodging or draft sitting out.

CorporatistNation

(2,546 posts)
49. I Beg To Differ... It's The Lady With The Funny Jackets That Is Spiraling Downward... And Fast!
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:03 PM
Jun 2016

Ignore at your peril the legal fiasco that she is so entangled... All of her own doing... Much less the veracity issues....

e.g., MSNBC To the deniers... Watch THIS Video... It is not comforting to think that she may well be the Democratic Nominee...

Hillary really betrayed Andrea Mitchell... The entire context of this report was of a solemn nature... A Funeral so to speak...

Andrea Mitchell "I do not see this report as ...ANYTHING BUT... DEVASTATING!"

Chuck Todd "After this I don't think that she could get confirmed for Attorney General!"

Lots of FIBBING by Hillary here.. for more than a year!

metroins

(2,550 posts)
50. Hi
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:37 PM
Jun 2016

I don't watch videos. I strongly prefer reading on the Internet.

If you want to summarize or provide a transcript, I'd read it.

I just like to read. Personal preference.

 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
4. who claimed he "dodged the draft"
Tue May 31, 2016, 09:40 AM
May 2016

sanders did seek CO status as a pacifist...that is TRUE and the CO status is used to avoid military service....sanders tried and failed and by the time they drew his lottery number, he was too old

he was a declared paficist>>>>>TRUE
he tried to get CO Status>>>>>>TRUE

DURHAM D

(32,556 posts)
5. Snopes does not understand how the term was used
Tue May 31, 2016, 09:56 AM
May 2016

during the Vietnam era.

That said, this is a total non-issue. Everyone was doing/trying everything they could do stay out of Vietnam. Unfortunately many did not have enough options.

 

braddy

(3,585 posts)
7. Actually Vietnam was fought mostly by volunteers, unlike WWI and WWII.
Tue May 31, 2016, 10:13 AM
May 2016

Sanders was of Audie Murphy's generation, he turned 28 in 1969.

Trump also uses the lottery of 1969 as why he didn't serve, but the draft ran continuously from 1940 to 1973 (except for 1947) for guys like Sanders and Trump, the relevant years were before 1969.

I think that we still don't have a clear record of Sander's draft history, we know that Trump was a draft evader and that for decades he was lying when he used the 1969 lottery as his excuse but with Sanders we still don't have a clear picture.

MR. RUSSERT: Did you serve in the military?

MR. TRUMP: I did not.

MR. RUSSERT: What reason?

MR. TRUMP: Well, I got very lucky. We had lottery numbers. And I guess this was my biggest factor of luck in my life, because during the Vietnam War, I had a very, very high—my date, which was June 14th, was a very high date in the lottery, so I never got drafted, so I was very lucky.

Demsrule86

(68,030 posts)
11. That is completely untrue
Tue May 31, 2016, 01:16 PM
May 2016

Vietnam was fought by those drafted...my older sisters had kids in their classes who were forced to go...it was mostly fought by poor kids who couldn't afford college until they ended college deferment. In fact 30 % of all deaths were of people forced to got their by the draft.

 

braddy

(3,585 posts)
14. LOL, no, it is the fact, as you just posted about 70% of the Vietnam war dead were volunteers, while
Tue May 31, 2016, 02:58 PM
May 2016

about 70% of the WWII war dead were draftees.

The average age of our Vietnam dead was about 23, and they were better educated than in WWII the Army in WWII was 93% draftees, during Vietnam it was about 25%.

Demsrule86

(68,030 posts)
17. Everyone was drafted during WWII
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 03:19 PM
Jun 2016

but in Vietnam...there was a lottery for much of it...let me tell you my older sis's friends did not go willingly...you insult the memory of those men forced to die for a political war with your words...nothing more to say to you...twist all you want. I would be ashamed to do so but then I actually had a Dad who survived Vietnam and Korea. Sure no one went to Vietnam except volunteers...suuuure. And the ones that did come home were abandoned mostly and left to live (or die) with what happened to them physically and mentally...let just finish by adding, I think you have a ways to go ...in terms of being a decent human being.

 

braddy

(3,585 posts)
25. I don't know why you are attacking me personally, I served in the Army during the Vietnam war, all
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 03:49 PM
Jun 2016

the men in my family serve, from WWII, Korea, to Vietnam to my artist son in the 1990s, and none of them were drafted.

The draft was continuous from 1940 through 1973, except for 1947. The lottery was in 1969, 29 years in.
WWII, WWI, Korean War, the most volunteer war of the 20th century before we went to an all volunteer military, was Vietnam. Many young drafted men come to love the life of the warrior once they are in.

Here is the last draftee, he retired in 2011.
Army’s Last Draftee to Retire After 39 Years
Published July 03, 2011 Associated Press

Mellinger told the draft board there was a mistake.
“I ... told them I don’t need to go into the Army, I’ve got a job,” said Mellinger, who hung drywall for a living. “They just kind of laughed.”
(snip)
He heard so many war stories in training that he was fired up about going, and was disappointed he was instead assigned to be an office clerk in Germany.
(snip)
Mellinger wasn’t long for clerking. He earned a spot in the Army Rangers, and would go on to do more than 3,700 parachute jumps. And despite the 1991 parachute accident that gave him the material for the wind chime, breaking his leg in several places, he went on to run nine marathons. He was made a command sergeant major in 1992.
Nearly a decade later, he was sent to ground zero in New York right after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks as part of an advance party from the First Army. Then came his time in Iraq as the top enlisted soldier of the multi-national forces in Iraq, where he says he survived 27 roadside bombings during his deployment of nearly three years straight.
(snip)
“Draftees are pretty maligned over time,” he said, “but the fact is they are part of every branch of service up to 1973, and when you look at what those military branches accomplished over time, I’ll let the record speak for itself.”




Demsrule86

(68,030 posts)
43. I did not attack you
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:32 PM
Jun 2016

Both my brother and sister served in the Marines...Mom and Dad were in the Navy...two cousins now serving in the Navy and one cousin in the air force...we are a military family...I grew up on base. I would never attack anyone who served...but to say that those shipped off to Vietnam to die in a political war were mostly volunteers is bull shit and you know many of those about to be drafted 'volunteered' so as to pick where they served. In the beginning, my Dad told me it was mostly poor kids who could not afford college and a 'deferment'. And he had little use for conscientious objectors either. Then there was the lottery ...no matter what, many kids were forced to go and died there for nothing...and you should not use them to further Bernie's candidacy...the fact he did not serve makes it worse. Even those who came home alive were sneered at and persecuted ( not hired for jobs for fear they might snap)...many with PTSD and drug addictions. Those who lived and those who died deserve better than to be used to excuse the actions of Bernie Sanders... He chose not to go...and to say...oh it didn't matter because few there were forced to go is bullshit and you know it. That is not an attack by the way...just how I feel.

 

braddy

(3,585 posts)
45. You most certainly did attack me, even calling me an indecent human being. The fact is that
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:53 PM
Jun 2016

the vast majority, of those stationed in Vietnam were volunteers.

Then you go after Vietnam vets describing them as losers, and bizarrely keep making up that I am saying something about Sanders, promoting him I think you are claiming, where am I doing that?

Vietnam vets actually rated better than the civilians in their age group, on average, yet you describe them as traumatized losers, yet 91% of them are proud of their service, 97% were honorably discharged and 74% would do it again.

You need to read "Stolen Valor" and learn the truth about Vietnam vets.

Demsrule86

(68,030 posts)
46. That is untrue
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:41 PM
Jun 2016

Vietnam vets were the most maltreated soldiers ever in this country...my Dad was one. But for you to say they were volunteers is completely untrue...even those who volunteered often did because they were about to be drafted and wanted a choice...you were using them to promote Bernie meme that being a conscientious objector is ok...why they were volunteers and Bernie didn't want to volunteer and that is simply not true.

 

braddy

(3,585 posts)
47. You are purely lying as you make up sthis stuff, I was not doing anything in regards to Sanders, and
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:53 PM
Jun 2016

the facts are clear about volunteers, draftees, and all of our wars, the records are meticulous.

I am against Bernie and Trump evading the draft, and you did call me an indecent human being, and insult me as degrading my fellow soldiers during the Vietnam war because I know the facts that you keep denying, as you keep denigrating me and my fellow vets.

Here is one of your personal attacks. ""let just finish by adding, I think you have a ways to go ...in terms of being a decent human being.""

Fuddnik

(8,846 posts)
52. No, it is you who is woefully misinformed.
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:53 PM
Jun 2016

Late '60s, almost everyone was a draftee. The lottery wasn't until 1969. I remember watching it on live TV from my barracks.

Everyone else I went to high school with saw scurrying off to college or running off to Canada to avoid the draft. Those who went to college all studied some new program called "Business" and came back with degrees to fuck the rest of us after they learned how to break unions. Most of their tuition was paid for by their union families back then.

MineralMan

(146,050 posts)
20. Oh, no, it wasn't.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 03:28 PM
Jun 2016

You may have not lived through the pre-lottery days, but I did. When I dropped out of college for a break, it wasn't long before I got a notice to appear for my draft physical. I skipped being drafted by enlisting in the USAF, and spent four years in uniform.

The draft was real. The draft took many young men. You don't appear to have lived through it.

 

braddy

(3,585 posts)
28. I remember the pre-lottery days well, and yes, Vietnam was fought overwhelmingly by volunteers.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 03:58 PM
Jun 2016

Last edited Wed Jun 1, 2016, 04:30 PM - Edit history (1)

I and all three of my brothers served during the war, and we all enlisted, 3 of us into the Army and one into the Navy.

The draft was not invented for the Vietnam war, it had been continuous for decades.


It didn't even increase by an extraordinary amount during the Vietnam war over peacetime. Whether you had been drafted or not you probably would have served somewhere besides Vietnam, since the vast majority of our military during the Vietnam war, including about 3 out of 4 draftees, served outside of Vietnam.

According to the Selective Service System, from 1954 through 1963 (peacetime) they drafted 1,327,343 men for military service, from 1964 through 1973, they drafted 1,840,650 men.

kiva

(4,373 posts)
31. Only in a technical sense.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 04:05 PM
Jun 2016

I knew many "volunteers" who signed up in the window of time between the lottery draw and their draft notices. Most joined the Navy or Air Force, because by then it was understood that the highest casualty rates were in the Army and Marines.

Were they technically volunteers? Yes. Would they have enlisted if they weren't about to drafted? No.

 

braddy

(3,585 posts)
35. The fact remains that Vietnam was overwhelmingly a volunteer war, why you want to pretend that
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 04:12 PM
Jun 2016

suddenly the military was all draftees is baffling when you should know better.

At the peak of the Vietnam war we had about 550,000 men in Vietnam and about 3,559,000 serving in the military, about 25% of the military that served in Vietnam were draftees.

The draft was not invented for the Vietnam war, it had been continuous for decades.


It didn't even increase by an extraordinary amount during the Vietnam war over peacetime. Whether you had been drafted or not you probably would have served somewhere besides Vietnam, since the vast majority of our military including about 3 out of 4 draftees, served outside of Vietnam.

According to the Selective Service System, from 1954 through 1963 (peacetime) they drafted 1,327,343 men for military service, from 1964 through 1973, they drafted 1,840,650 men.

kiva

(4,373 posts)
40. Why do you choose to insist
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 04:38 PM
Jun 2016

that the majority of those men who went to Vietnam were volunteers with no strings attached?

 

braddy

(3,585 posts)
42. I choose to insist that the vast majority of the men who served during the war, including those who
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 04:56 PM
Jun 2016

went to Vietnam, were volunteers, I was in the Army then, all of my brothers served during the war, you are denying the facts, the draft did not even increase by a huge number and you seem determined to portray every 18 and 19 year old drafted into the Army or Marines as a determined non warrior loser type, when in reality most of them grew up and enjoyed their military service, making good Marines and Soldiers, and many volunteering for Airborne, and Special Operations units.

The image of draftees and/or combat soldiers and Marines as disgruntled losers, is ridiculous.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
8. I don't know why "dodged the Draft" is being spread, other than BS supporters can claims it false?
Tue May 31, 2016, 10:17 AM
May 2016

It seems there are many that claim so many slights, just so they argue a finer point and lose the real message.

Bernie was a conscientious objector

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512092875

Demsrule86

(68,030 posts)
18. Yet was willing to send others to fight (Afghanistan Yugoslavia)
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 03:20 PM
Jun 2016

something he was unwilling to do...as a woman who was actually born at Great Lake Naval base in Illinois with two parents in the service...I would have a hard time voting for Bernie for that alone...and I am a liberal Democrat.

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
6. It doesn't matter. As a self-avowed has-been (according to a campaign spokesman)...
Tue May 31, 2016, 09:57 AM
May 2016

...Bernie will be perceived as a Pacifist by some, and that in and of itself is enough for some folks to get a raging hate-on.

"As a college student in the 1960s he was a pacifist," Michael Briggs, campaign spokesman added in an email. " isn't now."

http://www.snopes.com/bernie-sanders-dodged-draft/


When Trump attacks Muslims, his fans are as likely to bash Sikhs as Muslims.

When Trump attacks Mexicans, his fans are as likely to bash Guatemalans as Mexicans.

Whether Bernie's campaign spokesman was accurate or not, people who are perceived as Pacifists will suffer some collateral damage from those who hate us for our Pacifism.

Trump and his DU enablers are playing an old and dangerous game.



democrattotheend

(11,605 posts)
32. It's comforting to me
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 04:06 PM
Jun 2016

I finished watching 11.22.63 recently, and the alternate 2016 served as a stark reminder of how scary our weapons arsenal is. Of the candidates currently in the race, Bernie is the only one I fully trust to have access to the nuclear launch codes (although I obviously trust Hillary a lot more than Trump).

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
12. Those were the old days. No one is attacking Trump for "Draft Doging"
Tue May 31, 2016, 01:19 PM
May 2016

because of his multiple "foot injuries" that kept him from serving.

None of the candidates have served and Bernie has already stated that while "War is the Last Resort" he would back America (if it were attacked) going into war. He did support troops in Afghanistan and Kosovo.

Demsrule86

(68,030 posts)
23. Consider that Kerry went to war
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 03:34 PM
Jun 2016

while Bush flew around Texas in Daddy's brigade. And they still destroyed Kerry.

Demsrule86

(68,030 posts)
41. Nonsense
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 04:53 PM
Jun 2016

They would do worse than they did to Kerry and let's be honest, he did it to evade the draft. I don't judge anyone for that but then I am a liberal Democrat...the Gop would have a Sanders feeding frenzy on that and other issues.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
16. Oh Yes...he was a CT...Didn't Serve and Lied about it...Sadly..
Tue May 31, 2016, 05:47 PM
May 2016

The Disinfo is all around. while the Truth gets Ignored.

 

eastwestdem

(1,220 posts)
15. His reputation would be better if he had been a conscientious objector, instead he graduated
Tue May 31, 2016, 03:23 PM
May 2016

from college in 1964 and never had any type of career until he was elected mayor of Burlington in 1981. 17 years of essentially being a drifter does not look great on a resume.

Demsrule86

(68,030 posts)
21. Being a conscientuos objector was won of the ways people evaded the draft.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 03:31 PM
Jun 2016

That is what is was for...a way not to get drafted...so it was dodging the draft. I fault Bernie for voting to send people to war when he was unwilling to serve...in Afghanistan and Yugoslavia. This is another reason why he could never win a general.

 

beachbumbob

(9,263 posts)
27. No buddy claims he dodged the draft
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 03:56 PM
Jun 2016

He tried to register as a CO based on being a pacifist...and no pacifist will be elected to keep America safe

democrattotheend

(11,605 posts)
33. I don't 100% agree with that
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 04:08 PM
Jun 2016

I mostly do, but I am somewhat judgmental of people who avoided it solely by being from a powerful or well-connected family.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
34. I come at it from the point-of-view that not being involved in the war is an unmitigated good.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 04:10 PM
Jun 2016

We should definitely criticize those who forced others to go, however.

democrattotheend

(11,605 posts)
36. I see your point
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 04:26 PM
Jun 2016

I guess the only people I would really criticize are members of Congress who voted to continue funding the war while sparing their own sons from the draft, or lobbyists/businesspeople with a vested interest in continuing the war who did the same. But then I guess I'm more critical of the parents than the sons.

onenote

(42,057 posts)
44. I applied for and received a CO during the Vietnam War
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:49 PM
Jun 2016

and thus am pretty sensitive to draft dodger label. Putting oneself out there by formally seeking a CO was not viewed as a cost-free decision at the time -- there was reason to believe that it would follow you around in a not so good way.

That having been said, if nominated, there would be a lot of pressure on Sanders to explain the details of his CO application -- why he filed it, what he said, why it was denied.

At the time he filed, the law was still pretty strict -- you had to express your opposition to war in general, not just to a particular war. And until the SCOTUS broadened the standard in 1971 (before I applied but after Sanders), having a sectarian affiliation or theological position was often required by draft boards when they assessed applications. So Sanders, not being a particularly observant Jew might have had his application denied on that ground. Or it could be that he stated his opposition to serving in Vietnam rather than in any war. Or it could be something else altogether. There would be requests to know more.

ProgressiveEconomist

(5,818 posts)
55. So he TRIED, but
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 07:22 PM
Jun 2016

conscientious objection proved unnecessary because of multiple student deferments?

And now he thinks he can be Commander In Chief?

Can a true CO be an effective CIC? A FALSE CO MIGHT.

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